Topic: Star Fleet's Earlier Dreadnaughts and Battleships.

[Klingon Fanatic]

Rant ON! There is no nice way to say this...

This is F'ing nice all this  attention to detail on the Fed ships.  The attention deficit kids out there don't care about this.

SFC/B [insert Trek game here] will not get any better until new players get excited about the non-Federation ships.

Look at Star Wars: The Old Republic soon to be released. They are spending as much time on the Sith, neutral and Republic ships/characters so that folks are willing to be the bad guys or the neutral guys too.

We need this post's enthusiasm on the non-Federation ships too to attract new players.

Old arguments I know.

Still there is NO POINT in having a cool Federation ship without equally cool adversaries.

Rant OFF

Respectfully,

[TAnimaL]

Not being a hater, sorry if you mistakenly think that, I just disagree with a lot being assumed. Funny, Starfox that you try to prove I'm wrong by quoting one "source" and then turn around and say "let's expand beyond the the scope." I was under the impression by the first post in this thread that Panzergranate was looking for ideas about big ships in the early timeframce and I had a few thoughts to contribute. It's seeming more like that he had a view of the 'verse he wanted to express and isn't really looking for constructive criticism. Mighta saved some time if it was presented that way.

I don't hate Panzergranate or his history and I was pretty clear about why I hated the FJ manual, and I was fairly explicit in that this are just my opinions. Isn't that what forums are about, the exchange of ideas?

To pick your nitpick a bit;

Yes, the DN Entente was mentioned in TMP, as were the Scouts Hermes and Revere, IIRC. (I knew someone was going to mention these.) So, DNs and SC exist in trek, BUT WE NEVER SAW THEM, so they could be any design. You can't just assume that they look like the FJ versions.

A cannon is a large weapon that fires projectiles. Canon is "a group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field." (I predicted using that word would provoke a certain response.) Star Trek is just that, a group of works, with the "works" being what was on screen, and everything else, books, comics, technical manuals, and games, lies within a range of "conjectural" that range from extremely likely to outlandishly wrong. Therein lies the range in which we are working, and, to me, the "non-canon" Trek is far more contradictory than "official" Trek, and with 736 episodes, I don't consider "official" trek to be "narrow." Yes, it's sometimes contradictory, because they were producing a dramatic TV series, not a technical manual, but I think you can't just ignore it all because sometimes there were contradictions. Might I add, that while there were contradictions in where phasers and photons come from or how transporters worked, ship design and nacelle placement was prety damn consistent (TY Sternbach, Okuda, et. al.)

As I mentioned, the "AGT..." 1701D, the Galaxy X as it is called by fans, is the only 3-engine ship actually seen. A couple of barely seen wrecks, to me, are as credible as warp-driven parrots (which are indeed seen at one point). Pretty thin to hang the argument on, in my opinion; in fact, you could theorize that 3-engine ships need TNG-era technology to work.

Not sure exactly why Roddenberry's view of Starfleet not being to militarized is relevant here. There's a lot of backstory to the FJ Tech Manual, and some legal issues between GR and FJ that equally explain the somewhat petulant "no 3-nacelle ships" edict. Since the bulk of the TV canon (90%) and half the films develop along the GR philosophy that "Starfleet are explorers first and a military solution to a situation is a failure of diplomacy," we have to incorporate that too. I recommend a remedial viewing of DS9's "The Seige of AR-558" and TNG's "The Wounded."

I'm not a hater (and you're right, there are plenty of "those" out there), I just have a strong point of view and wanted to express it. If you look back, I did say how much I liked the Jutland and it's history Panzergranate posted. I just don't think slapping a 3rd nacelle on a Baton Rouge should ever qualify as a "early DN." (Sorry Terradyne)

[TAnimaL]

Bring on the klinks, Fanatic! Roms and Gorns and various kitty cats too! Just tell 'em to leave the third nacelle at home 

You bring up some interesting thoughts there about future players. Maybe a thread should talk about that.

[edit] and here it is
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163392101.0.html

[Starfox1701]

Not being a hater, sorry if you mistakenly think that, I just disagree with a lot being assumed.

Not so much assumed as infered from word choice.

Starfox that you try to prove I'm wrong by quoting one "source" and then turn around and say "let's expand beyond the the scope."

Notes so much tring to prove you wrong as make the point that "cannon" which is supose to be the bible of all things consistent is quite offten inconsisten. This was mainly because you toted out cannon as the sorce of your reasoning and then then catagorically denied the existenes of part of it to support that logic which I must admit pissed me off. The way I see it using a contradicting view of cannon as a reason somone eles can't be right is just bad form; epecailly when the subject is a noncannon ship type on a foram devoted to support of a noncannon game. You don't have to agree with him or me but just saying "I don't like that idea or interpatation" is way better then brandishing the fictional reality stick of a fictional universe and saying "You can't do that; its not real".

Not sure exactly why Roddenberry's view of Starfleet not being to militarized is relevant here.

Thats because he saw DNs as pure warships and warships have no place in his Star Trek Universe.

I just have a strong point of view and wanted to express it.

Understood but I felt and still do that there are more constructive ways of doing that. I'm not sure what you intended to say but I preety sure it didn't come across the way you intened.

I just don't think slapping a 3rd nacelle on a Baton Rouge should ever qualify as a "early DN."

Here we agree. My reasoning is as follows on average for SF ships a pair of Necelles accounts for 30 % of the total mass of the ship and dispite the SFB thought the Necelles = power on a fuctional level this is not the case. Most cruiser space frames simply wouldn't support another necelle either structually or operationally. You need to instally a larger reactor to and additional plasma transfere conduits which in this time period were not the large neat single waveguieds like on Galaxy or Intrepid, but multiple smaller feeds running from the reactor individual injectors in the necelle placed around the outer ring of the warp coils. Theers the shielding and maintance spaces. Larger fuel stores for both the warp and impulse drives, Buffed coolant systems for the larger drives and additional weapons. More crew spaces for the additional manpower needed to maintain the additioanl equipment and the supplies to feed, clothe, and care for that crew. All of this is before you consider amunition, marines, and all the other things that go into making a good ship of the line. Your up engined cruiser now masses 35 to 60% more and costs 2 too 5 times what a CA costs to build and run. And all of this doesn't take into account peace time roles for the ship and the associated equipmment and personel if the war she was built to fight doesn't happen.

Whats your reasoning?

We need this post's enthusiasm on the non-Federation ships too to attract new players.

True but a well thought out fed fleet can lead to equally well thought out threat forces. Afterall Starfleet inparticual prferes to build DNs and such inresponse to warships of other nations. So a powerfull fed DN must have an equally powerful Klingon, Kinzti, or Romulan opposite to have inspired the desigan and scare the politicos to get funding passed

[Panzergranate]

The original idea of this thread was to solict and inspire some original and inovative starship model designs to cover the DN and BB hole in fanon regarding the ENT to pre-TOS period. Maybe even the period before ENT even for the UES defence fleet.

Remembering Star Fleet's belief in the philosopy of, "If you want peace be prepared for war", as opposed to other namby pampy niaeve pacifist dogmas, (Tibet didn't have an army and that didn't stop China invading them), DNs and BBs would be just for deterent value and reassuring Federation members that Star Fleet was capable of protecting them from the hostile intentions of the neighbours.

I'm more used to and more interested in infrastructure and support vessels, for any given race and tend to model these as scenario props in LAN games. A few modellers have created these type of vessels to make a change from escorting / attacking the stock game freighters, etc.

While I don't quite figure the logic behind the Star Fleet Museum's warship designs for the Romulan War, I do keep some of ship models for their version here for LAN games. Currently there isn't much of an option to have in a  Romulan War LAN game session in due to lack of models from alternative timelines.

The idea is that we are able to organise and play out LAN games in whatever timeline and period is what takes our interest.
 
Sometimes we blend the timelines, where they can be blended, other times we keep them seperate. The goal is to have an enjoyable session and have fun.

It is mentioned in TOS that the Federation had fought a recent war with the Klingons, which ended unresolved. (TOS The Trouble With Tribbles).

It was Fanon that gave it a name. Apart from the very brief Organian War, in TOS "Erand of Mercy", in which the Klingons appear to be firing Drone missiles at the Enterprise, no other reference is made of pitched warfare between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

Some fannon starship designs have made it into canon....

From Jackill's Star Fleet Reference Manual - Ship Of The Fleet volume 1:

Abbe class torpedo destroyer in DS9. The book pre-dates the episode.

From volume 3:

Faranation class heavy tug / tow ship in JJ Abram's Star Trek movie. (Viewed on the viewscreen going to warp when Sulu leaves the parking brake on).

Kobiashi Maru class neutronic fuel tanker in JJ Abram's Star Trek movie. (Again viewed on the simulator viewscreen during Kirk's simulator test).

Also many features an ideas are taken, by the series and film writers, from SFB and other fanon. Remember that Paramount shares the rights, under the licence agreements granted to individuals under Star Trek francisement, to freely use any intellectual property of said individuals for use in shows amd films.

As for the Earth - Romulan War take on starship design, I see the designs for smaller vessels evolving along the NX route whilst larger vessels evolve along the Daedalus route until the two converge.

However there are those who still cringe at the sight of the "Akiraprise".

It doesn't take much imaginaton, or squinting, at the ENT Sweden class, to see a parent of the SFB Texas class CL.

Gene Roddenberry claimed to have fashioned Star Fleet along the lines of the British Royal Navy's exploration endeavors and pilosophy during the late 1700's and 1800's. Many starships in the shows bear British ship names.

Remember that Charles Darwin was the Naturalist (science officer) on a Royal Navy frigate HMS Discovery on a 5 year mission of exploration to the south seas. Similarily Captain Cook was also on a 5 year mission of discovery.

Kirk, however, closely resembles the exploits of a Captain Cocherane during the Napoleonic Wars. He once captured a Spanish frigate whilst commanding a sloop by using cunning and guile. He also attacked 19 French warships at the blockade of Rochforte, 3 months after Trafalgar, with his frigate, causing the French to flee, beach their ships, abandon them and hide in the sand dunes. He personally destroyed 4 of the beached frigates himself. Cocherane left the Royal Navy, migrated to Chile and founded the Chilian Navy. He later returned to England and oversaw the introdcution of steam power to the Royal Navy, for which he was a great advocate.
 

[TAnimaL]

Trying to get away from this "he said, she said" bs but I really feel I need to clear the air,

Starfox, dude, I don't know what I did to p!$$ you off but you keep coming after me. What you seem to be accusing me is what you and Panzergranate seem guilty of - that your views are the correct ones and all others are wrong, that I need to be lectured about fanon versus canon. (Please, it's spelled "canon," not "cannon.") You "inferred" I'm a hater, but I was objecting the tone of some posts that assumed much. All of my posts have included complimentary comments, so I see that as constructive. I just really don't like the FJ ships but I made that insanely clear that it's just my opinion, nothing else. I'm not sure what you're asking in "What's my reasoning," but to be clear about my feelings on engines and ships - nacelles need to be in pairs for a stable warp field, and they come in different sizes, not just to be swapped around. Connies and Reliants are similar sizes so they share warp engine types, Excelsior and Grissom are much different sizes and have more unigue nacelles.

Panzergranate, I totally see the Texas CL now in the Sweden. Funny. I don't completely agree that the Jackill designs went directly into DS9, it's probably just parallel evolution. The guys in effects shops in Hollywood aren't always as much fanboys, and there might be more legal issues over that sort of thing, but maybe.

Just because you've mentioned it twice - what is the line in "Tribbles" about a Klingon war? I don't really recall it that way but it's been a bit since I watched that one.

Please, to help stay on thread - I think a discussion about reconciling Starfleet between the Roddenberry vision of 1st season TNG at one end and the Clancy-esque vision seen in Cole's SFB at the other should be left for another thread....

[Terradyhne]

for long i haven't seen so much missunderstanding as in this thread with some of the last comments   

for an NX-era fed battleship ST-Legacy has an design, the U.S.S Yorktown NCC-1642, the Klingons have the Ravenous class and for the Romulans they missused the FASA M-4 Troop Transport, for the Battleship role.

yes Panzergranate you made manny of support ships, i don't know if you even made some Feds, all i can remember are Klingons. 
KF you are correct with your demand for more and better adversary ship models but for the most, feds are the easiest to make and so they do mostly feds, even the makers of Star Trek haven't been creative enough to make much more designs for the Klingons or Romulans. 

[Starfox1701]

Starfox, dude, I don't know what I did to p!$$ you off but you keep coming after me.

First you didn't piss me off, some of your comments did in the earlier post. Second I'm not coming after you. My second post was intended to beter and more calmly explain my perspective of your fist and second coments and offer an olive branch of sortes there at the end. Clearly I faild in both respects. We both seam to have very differeing veiws of what the other is tring say and in the intrest of returing the discusion to it's proper course can we just agree to disagree, No blood, no foul.

Just because you've mentioned it twice - what is the line in "Tribbles" about a Klingon war? I don't really recall it that way but it's been a bit since I watched that one.

Spock mentions the Battle of Dontu V fought 23 solar years ago. Outcome was inconclusive.

[FoaS_XC]

We both seam to have very differeing veiws of what the other is tring say and in the intrest of returing the discusion to it's proper course can we just agree to disagree, No blood, no foul.

And this is why I love you guys. This is how passionate discourse should happen - thank you.

Now then. I'm glad there's a lot of talk of the Fanon vs Canon, interesting to explode the various bits of Star Trek lore: Where to find inspiration, where to find areas to have fun with. Good stuff.

I do like what was said about DNs and BBs: They are important, even in peacetime, to reassure members of the federation that they are safe - I imagine its a major part of why they joined the Federation in the first place. Whilst I'm not one for Enterprise entirely as it was presented, I do think there are some interesting elements there - Particularly the nod to the Romulan war and the formation of the Federation... Even if you take Enterprise as Semi-Canon, or "Touches Canon" the reasons WHY the federation was formed seems valid: Tellarites, Vulcans, Andorians, and Humans banding together for mutual security and economic benefit - a handful of DNs and BBs can reflect that.

Regarding the designs of those BBs and DNs, I for one will look at a coupe things combined... One: SFB W-era and Y-era designs, ENT, and the Kelvin. Again: I take ENT as semi-canon, so I feel like the designs you find in there are a "Close approximation" - same with the Kelvin. I feel like the NX COULD be the BASIS of a good WCA/YCA - it just needs to be change to fit in better than the Akira-prise. So what I would do is take those WCA parts and put something together that is VAUGELY Constitution shaped (but more than just a kitbash, mind you) - and have that be the WDN/YDN.

[atheorhaven]

Bit late in the thread for this but I couldn't help myself. Kreeargh that TMP Galaxy based of LS's TOS Galaxy is a pretty nice work up, where can I grab it?

Like it myself..

Also joining late..

@Panzergranate: Like the ship man..

[TAnimaL]

I wanted to let everyone see some pics of Lord Schtupp's TOS Galaxy...

I don't know where anyone can get this, since Frost-Works is gone, and I'd love to be able to fly the TMP version too.

I think it's kind of silly to say "Ent"  "touches canon;"  it was broadcast, so it's canon, although one can certainly make the argument that it is an alternate timeline (created by the time-travel events of ST8) and only semi-canon, much like the JJ-verse has been declared a new timeline. Doesn't really matter either way, the NX-01 and the "half-saucer Intrepid" provides a design philosophy to base other ships on.

Pesonally, I think SFB can be of only a little help in this era, design-wise; in the SFB Early ships, the "W" ships are refitted old ships, more like the kitbashes we often talk about. I think each "generation" of shipbuilders are more capable than that. They didn't slap the first V8s into a Model T truck, or a better example might be the USS Natilus - not a modified WW2 sub, but doesn't quite look like a Los Angeles or Typhoon-class, so more like the Jutland above. True SFB "Early DNs," the ones built in the late Y period, only have cruiser armament and larger engines, and, again, Starfleet builders in 2150 should have been able to build a BB, even if it only has phaser-3s and drone-As. I'm talking ship's specs here, what it's SSD would look like so to speak. As to what it would look like as a model in game, well, I'm not a modeler, I have to rely on those more talented than I.

(Beating a dead horse time)
For what it's worth, I have to disagree about agreeing to disagree, but that's because I don't agree on what that disagreement is. I have a pretty clear idea of what you're saying Starfox, but I don't think you're hearing me, and I can give you a clear example

Spock mentions the Battle of Dontu V fought 23 solar years ago. Outcome was inconclusive.

Assuming that the Battle of Donatu V proves a Klingon war is a logical fallacy of the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" type. That assumption was stated as:

It is mentioned in TOS that the Federation had fought a recent war with the Klingons, which ended unresolved. (TOS The Trouble With Tribbles).

That there was a battle is not in question, but Spock's comment does not prove a war (and 23 years might not be considered "recent" by some).

Many of Starfox and Panzergranate's comments make these sort of assumptions, and if these were presented as "I think that..." I would ignore them; but instead there are 726 word responses as to why the FJ designs are official. I'm sorry but I just don't accept the tone in which these comments are made, or hat their comments are ex facto. I chose my avatar as a reminder to all, but most importantly to myself, that the internet is rife with disagreements and conflict, and one shouldn't let hyperbole get in the way of agood night's sleep. So, in regard to the (possibly false) assumption that
there was a Four-Years War or not, adn this is very important to remember:
IT JUST DOESN"T MATTER! (repeat as needed)
I see the Donatu V battle as part of the "75 years of open hostilities" that Spock states in "ST6 The Undiscovered Country" and Picard mention in the TNG ep "First Contact". If someone wants to say there was a Four Years War pre-Pike era, fine, but it wasn't mentioned in the TV/movie series called "Star Trek", so it's opinion, that's all.

Returning us to the topic, if there were a BB or DN at the Battle of Donatu V in 2244, what would it be like?
I'd imagine something like a BB with a movement of cost of 2, 40 warp and 20 APR, 10 phaser 2 and 6 phaser 3, and maybe 4 or 5 heavy weapons or drones. As to what it would looke liike....

[TAnimaL]

Just because they're relevant here, and in case someone hasn't seen them, these are by ST designer Doug Drexler of a potential refit fot teh NX-01.

If NX-01 was a "cruiser" by ENT standards (a FF by TOS standards?), might the "NX-01.5" be more a DN? Or at least a BCH?

[Kreeargh]

Bit late in the thread for this but I couldn't help myself. Kreeargh that TMP Galaxy based of LS's TOS Galaxy is a pretty nice work up, where can I grab it?

I think I have LS Tos Galaxy on a disc somewhere. It might take me a few days to find it. 
Fallen_Warrior  What version do you want the one with 128 seperate all sizes of maps or the version that has 18 512x512 maps? Either way the texture look the same as that pic I posted.

In my opinion a DN and even more BB should have way more armor, more,more, more weapons  and support craft than a ca or lesser craft. Size is not the total issue.  Some can say the defiant is a Dn with its weapons ect. 
The reason why I dont like most 3 warps Dn's. They are slaped on an existing design which would take away already used space for more power.  Rarely I see any new scaleing or change of the hull to make up for the loss or the use of it. The All good things Enterprise D was a good mix for the 3 warp. It has more than just speed and power it also powers up that big gun and hull changes support the idea of adding a 3rd warp.

 

[Starfox1701]

Assuming that the Battle of Donatu V proves a Klingon war is a logical fallacy of the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" type. That assumption was stated as:

I was ammuming nothing. That was Spocks line near verbatum at the begining of the episode.

I don't know where anyone can get this, since Frost-Works is gone, and I'd love to be able to fly the TMP version too.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3697428/FTOSGalaxy.zip

Sombody could upload it to BattleClinic.

For what it's worth, I have to disagree about agreeing to disagree, but that's because I don't agree on what that disagreement is. I have a pretty clear idea of what you're saying Starfox, but I don't think you're hearing me,

I hear you just fine. I just no longer about winning a pointless argument. Beat the dead horse all you want just don't be surprised when the gas bloated corps blows up on you

[Kreeargh]

Just because they're relevant here, and in case someone hasn't seen them, these are by ST designer Doug Drexler of a potential refit fot teh NX-01.

If NX-01 was a "cruiser" by ENT standards (a FF by TOS standards?), might the "NX-01.5" be more a DN? Or at least a BCH?

I think that would make a good Ca but to thin for a dn just my opinion 

Here is one of my thoughts that could be remade to fit ? Ent era theme .  The dn is simmler to the model you show TAnimaL but the mass is alot more  . Nevermind the jj theme hull that is just a place  holder showing my basic ideas.
Bahh my bad not my place to post my models here .

[Panzergranate]

Actually many of Earth's battleships and dreadnaughts, in both the Royal Navy and US Navy, took part in many friendly diplomatic visits throughout the 1920's and 1930's during the inter war peace.

I peacetime such vessels are diplomatic tools, though probally used differently with the Federation than the Klingons.

I have had a go at building a pre-ENT Klingon Neutronic fueled warp drive capital battleship or how I'd figure the Klingons would attempt such a project with the levels of technology available to them at the time.

In ENT there is frequent reference to the fleet, though apart from the Sweden class frigate / destroyer, we never see larger vessels though Archer is supposed to have served as 1st officer on one.
 
These earlier vessels are clearly a lot less technologically advanced as the NX class and not as fast as the NX either.

The earliest UES exploration vessel mentioned in Star Trek was the SS Valiant in TOS "Where No Man Has Gone Before", which pre-dates the NX by many decades.

So the UES Star Fleet existed in some for, in canon, for at least long enough to launch the SS Valiant and send it off exploring either the upper or lower boundary edge of our galaxy, where it is lost.

Again more possible project material for those wanting to try something different.

Then there are the other races and their early space flight. Most were in space whilst Earth was still sailing the oceans by sail and just starting to play with steam power, others on a on a similar space flight achievement scale to Earth.

The Romulans seemed to be in a technological rut regarding what to power their starships with and seemed to have remained with the same technology that they used to leave Vulcan during the schism. Vulcan, on the other hand, seems to have progressed slightly better.

The Kzinti must have had a period when their ships had only two engines.

When did the Lyrans decide to adopt a catermaran design phlosophy??

Both the Kzinti and Lyrans have been squabaling for centuries, so what would they have been flying back then??
 
The same goes for all the races, whether canon or SFB in origin. There would have been less technological designed starships, and amongst those beligerent races, the desire and early attempts to build the odd all conquering dreadnaughts and battleships to crush their enemy. (Which obviously failed as they're still at war in the SFB universe by the TOS period).