Topic: SG6 Rules Discussion Thread

[Dizzy]

 Slave Girls VI: Dilithium Crystals are a Girl's Best Friend

[Dizzy]

Alliance Federation, Mirak, Hydran, Gorn

Vs:[/list]

Coalition Klingons, Lyrans, Romulans, Interstellar Concordium



Credits:

XenoCorp Bonk DieHard TraceyG ED S'cipio Dizzy and others

Features:

3 Week server.
2265 start, 1 day a game year ends in 2286, 4 minute turns, 365 turns a year.
1 or 2 ships per CnC rules unless all players from both sides agree to more for that PvP match only.
One click do-it-all install/uninstaller.
Multiple accounts ok.
Start date: Test server up b4 the end of July

Links and Downloads:

-

SGO V Installer
- Webmap. 
- Kills Page
- Roleplay Thread [/list]

Map Notes:

- Map is a nice round number, 69xxx69, 4900 hexes.
- Empire hexes are 10 and can be reinforced to 15.
- Those adjacent to planets will be 30.
- Planets will be shown on the webmap, bases will not be.
- Mosh pit in the middle located between Fed and Klink space called 'The Ring'.
  a.) Circular neutral zone location is considered hazardous space and limited to non

X ships with .67 or less move cost.
  b.) Wingmen must be move cost .5 or less.
  c.) 3 ships are allowed in AI missions, but only 2 in PvP and thus any one of the three must choose to disengage.
  d.) FF Squadrons count as a .67 ship.
  e.) VC's, Disengage Rules and shiploss penalties do not apply.
  f.) These hexes and all original neutral zone hexes max at 3 DV.
- Black Hole hexes exempt players from both the Disengage Rule, ship VC's and any ship loss penalties. Just have fun in these hexes.
[/list]

Heavy Iron - Max Capital Ships on at once:

- Max Capital ships will be limited by a points system by era: Early Era-ish (2263-2274):

14 points, Mid and Late Era-ish (2275+): 16 points.
- A Multi-ship Fleet comprises a command variant of a New/Heavy Cruiser class type and a vanilla DD or FF class ship.
- The F column of the shiplist designates what ships are and are not vanilla.
- An ISC CAW,P,T,Y or Z all count as command ships.
- The following ships points count toward the total capital ships on the server at once:

  Battleships: 11
  DN Carriers: 8
  Dreads:  6
  Multi-ship Fleet: 4
  BC/V's: 4[/list]

Maximum X Ships on at the same time:

- Each side gets

3 X points in 2281 and 82. This is increased to 5 in 2283, 6 in 2284 and 7 in 2285+.  X points are in addition to captiol ship points.
- If you fly an X ship, you must rename your ship adding an 'X' at the end of your shipname.

I-CCX = 6
CCX/CAX's/I-CLX = 3
CLX = 2
FFX and DDX =  Free
[/list]

Da Penalty Box

- If you lose one of the following ship types, you personally may not fly any of these again for 12 hours. This applies to all of a person’s multiple accounts. They are: Any CCX/CAX type X ship, BB, DN, CVA, BC/V's.
- If you lose an

X ship, you may not fly another for 12 hours.
- If you lose the command ship of a Multi-Ship Fleet, you may not fly another Multi-Ship Fleet for 12 hours.
- In addition, your side's Heavy Iron or X points will be deducted by however many points your ship cost for 12 hours. Time will be kept track of using stardates, 12 hours is 182 turns on the Heavy Iron & X points thread.[/list]


Fleeting Rules:

- No capital ships (Multi-Ship Fleet included) are allowed to fly in a mission together. If they happen to by accident, their opponent is allowed to choose which capital ship must disengage, and the disengagement penalty is voided for the disengaging ship.
- CCX/CAX's are treated as Capital ships for Fleeting purposes.
- No

X ships are allowed to fly in a mission together. If they happen to by accident, one of the X ships must decided to immediately disengage, the disengagement penalty is voided for the disengaging ship, but they must stay in the battle in spectator mode till it concludes.
- One CARRIER class type per fleet and a max of 32 ftrs is allowed.[/list]

FF Squadron CnC

- A 3 ship fleet of the same race comprised of a Frigate Leader and 2 vanilla FF's may be flown together.
- If a race doesn't have a FF Leader, a vanilla Destroyer may be substituted as the leader.
- An FF Squadron is worth one PvP Point if any two of the three FF's are destroyed.
- Shiploss will be set to 3 so if you lose one of your multi-fleet ships, it will be replaced.
- FF Squadrons may not fleet together with other FF Squadrons.

PF CnC

- Full Tenders with 3+ PF’s may carry no more than 1 Leader, and 1 Special PF, the others must be vanilla.
- Players using Casual Tenders with only 2 PF’s may recover but not re-launch them and the PF's must be vanilla.
- Hydran Heavy Stinger fighters (

H-St-S(heavy), H-St-T(Heavy), H-ST-Tm(Heavy) are substituted for PFs.
- Hydran ships designated with an 'h' are allowed 2, but the OM and IDh are allowed 4.[/list]

PF Flotillas

- All races except Hydran have PF Flotillas.
- Designations of x-PF(Flt) identify it as the flight leader.
- Each leader may carry 2 dissimilar special PF's and two vanilla PF's.
- PF Flotillas may not fleet with CARRIERS.
- The x-PF(Flt) leader PF acts as a ship, i.e., PlaD will not fire at it and all PF's are destroyed when the PF(Flt) leader is killed. No way around that.
- PF Flotillas are not worth any VC's unless they have a wing in a PvP in which case they are worth 1 PVP point if the PF(Flt) leader is destroyed.
- PF(Flt) Leaders may NEVER recall their PF's once launched.
- All PF(Flt)'s have been given an extra hull and ED to make them a slight bit tougher.

Fighter CnC

Federation
- F-14 ftrs are allowed only on the CVS, BCV, CVA (2 squads max), DVL, and BB.
- F-15 ftrs are allowed only on the CVS, F-BB.
- These fighters are model represented and distinguishable from regular Fed ftrs, courtesy of Thu11s.

Hydrans
- H-St-X are only allowed on X ships.

*Note* SFB Fighters with PlaD were converted to PhoF, "plasma mini-bolts", and a Ph3 360`.[/list] [/list]

PvP Kills:

- Total PvP pts will be calculated at the end of each week to determine VC's. See below.
- PvP kills are worth the following points:

I-CCX 

6  (1 move cost)
All other CCX/CAX  4  (1 move cost)
I-CLX 3  (.67 move cost)
CLX  2  (.67 move cost)
FFX/DDX  1  (.5 move cost)

BB:  11  (2 move cost)
CVA:  8  (1.5 move cost)
DN:  6  (1.25 and 1.5 move cost)
BCV/T - Carrier, Casual (2 PF's) or Full Tender (3+ PF's):  4  (1 and 1.25 move cost)
BCH:  3  (1 and 1.25 move cost) (Includes all Lyran BC's with 2 PF's)
N/CA, N/CL, HDW's are worth 1.  (.67 and 1 move cost)
Smaller class types with 8 ftrs or 3+ PF's are worth 1.
Ships with a move cost of .5 or less are exempt unless they are involved in a fleet action with a wing or used in a Multi-Ship Fleet in which case they are worth 1.
PF Flotillas are exempt unless they are involved in a fleet action with a wing in which case they are worth 1 only if the PF-(Flt) Leader is destroyed.
FF Squadrons are worth 1 if any two of the three FF's are destroyed.
- PvP kills do not apply in Black Hole hexes.[/list]

Map and PvP VC’s

- An original enemy planet must be controlled and have a LoS to a friendly HW. You get one

Victory Point for matching an enemy planet with one of a disimilar race. Terraformed planets (if used) and those located in the neutral zone do not count towards VC's.

- If attrition (PvP points) equals or exceeds one and a half times as many more than your enemy you count it as a Planet for purposes of the Map VC's listed above applied toward the specific race that suffered the highest attrition points and if it equals or exceeds twice as many, you count it as another Planet to apply toward the specific race that suffered the second highest attrition points.

- All your empires must have a LoS at least one hex wide at the end of each VC round. If you cut off an enemy race's LoS to their ally, you count it as a Planet for purposes of the Map VC's listed above applied toward that race.

- There will be 3x Map VC periods, one at the end of each week from the time the server started.

- Total points are tallied and the difference is used below to determine the winner.
  5 VC Points = Total Victory - The losers are wiped from the face of the Galaxy so completely that there is no trace left of their civilization and eventually even their very existence will be forgotten entirely and no one will remember them. The winners go on to dominate the universe.
  4 VC Points = Decisive Victory - Driven to the brink of extinction, the surviving losers scatter throughout the galaxy vowing to one day seek revenge while their conquerers plunder and desecrate their lands and homeworlds that were left behind.
  3 VC Points = Major Victory - The victors conquer considerable enemy territory and subjugate and enslave countless millions while the losers are left devestated both economically and militarily wondering how long their shaky future will last.
  2 VC Points = Minor Voctory - The victors, unable to deliver a knock-out blow and capitalize on their many advantages despite solid gains in territory and ships, leave the losers able to pick up the pieces and possibly threaten them again in the not so distant future.
  1 VC Point  = Tactical Victory - After an exhausting war, the victors take comfort in knowing they have bragging rights for edging their enemy in economic and military might leaving the quadrant ripe for another general war ready to break out at any moment.[/list]

Bounties!

-This is left to the RM's to devise, implement and track.

Bases

- Base Stations are indestructible and act only as resupply and shipyard docks. There will be no Base Station missions offered. These hexes will draw only patrols.
- Battle Stations and Starbases may be placed in any friendly hex with a LoS to a friendly planet but may not be placed adjacent to another base.

Deepstrikes

- If you draft or are drafted into a PvP in a hex that has no Allied or Neutral hexes adjacent to it at the time of the draft, then you may not disengage and must fight to the death.
- Even if your ship is a .5 or less move class ship, if caught deepstriking you are worth 1 VC.
- The Ring area mosh pit thing is exempt from Deepstrikes. So you can deepstrike there all ya want to and you're safe.

Disengagement/Destruction Rule

- If you are forced to Disengage in a PvP match, then you are banned from the hex you either took the mission in or were drafted in and all the hexes adjacent to that one for

15 turns. If your ship was destroyed then you are banned from that hex and all adjacent hexes for 8 turns.
- If you draft or are drafted while moving out of an area you have been banned in, the mission is to be played out normally, but any outcome for purposes of disengagement/destruction is voided and the banned time from the previous mission and hex doesnt begin until the current mission concludes.
- Black Hole hexes are free hexes and the Disengagement/Destruction doesn't apply to these hexes.
- One turn is 4 minutes.[/list]

General Rules

- If you are in a PvP and die, stay there in the battle till the match is over.

- If a mission causes all players to drop, then all those players must attempt to log back on and retry the mission at least once allowing the slower connection to draft. If this player is known to cause drops or lags, this player must not be on the front lines drafting, being drafted and causing connection issues. It isnt fair to anyone else. They need to do missions elsewhere. See this link:

Make sure your Firewall is OFF!

- If the server goes down and players are still in a mission, it still counts. Once the server comes back up, the losing team at the request of the winning team is obliged to be drafted and disengage to properly reflect the DV change on the map if possible.

- During some missions, a player's name may not be indicated on their ship. If you suspect you are playing against a human, type a greeting in the chat.  All other human players are required to immediately respond with a text chat greeting and identify the ship they are in.

- If you disengage or are destroyed in a game and there are others still fighting, you may not leave the game until the match is finished.

- All other rules, same as past servers.[/list]

Wild Geese

- Wild Geese chosen by the admin will start off with the side of their choosing (or be chosen by the admin to join a certain side at the start) and every three days, the Geese switch to the side that is losing by

x or more original space hexes. Repeat every three days. It is automatic and no one other than this rule affects their deployment.[/list]

Forfeiting Missions:

- You are

NEVER allowed to forfeit a mission under ANY circumstances on the map during a mission draft or a mandatory mission choice. This causes SERIOUS errors in the database and leads to CPU overload and eventual server burps.

- If you are drafted you MUST accept the mission. You are NOT ALLOWED to logoff or FORFEIT. EVER

- If you find that your navigator is incompetant and has wandered into an enemy hex and you recieve a mandatory mission, you may logoff and relog on as long as you do not do this repeatedly. You are NOT ALLOWED to FORFEIT a mission.

- Rarely a player will become ghosted in a hex. If need be the server can be rebooted to unghost the player at the discretion of the admins.

- DO NOT park your ship anywhere near the front lines and go AFK. You will cause forfeits this way. Park your ship away from the front in an empty hex. Better yet, just logoff the server till you come back as you may take up a player slot.

[/list]

[Dizzy]

Most of you may notice that the rules are almost identical to SG5. Notable change was Max Heavy Iron points will be deducted for a period of time when one is lost.

This thread is for the RM's or whoever else that wants to comment on the rules, or the smutty looking green girls or my slutty orion slave chicks story... 

[762_XC]

So is this a valid fleet: DN CCX CVS Never mind, found the answer

And are we going SQL or flatfile

And does the DV thingy work

And do you want this stickied

And why not FHMR vs KLGI

[Dizzy]

So is this a valid fleet: DN CCX CVS Never mind, found the answer

And are we going SQL or flatfile

And does the DV thingy work

And do you want this stickied

And why not FHMR vs KLGI

Forge is SQL. Its working gud. Waiting for Bonk to give me some updates b4 we decide.

DV thingy works on SQL.

Dont need to sticky yet.

Most of the Rom population comes from the coalition regulars and kbf. There are more gorn than romulan players otherwise. So sending the gorn over might not be a good thing for the player strapped allies.

[762_XC]

So if the DV thingie works, how much shift for PvP?

[Bonk]

And does the DV thingy work...

...DV thingy works on SQL.

PvP DV shifts are not currently working. (well, they are, but inconsistently...) As well, the code is independent of the type of database used. It needs more work and testing, priorities are elsewhere for now, debugging the kit's data handling code (note there has not been a test in some time) as Frey and I have been tied up with dealing with our bad connection quality.

Dizzy, I can see the image in this thread just fine, though if there are more than 20 connections to the ftp server it will not display, we are redirecting the downloads folder to the ftp server as a temporary bandwidth throttle until I can get a stable bandwidth throttle module for apache written. (We require a throttle now as we do not have huge upstream bandwidth like we used to have and we need to divide what we have up equally among the various servers) Some apache throttle modules exist but none are stable on the windows platform. I am working on writing it, I've got to get right to the guts of the apache portable runtime and apache core code.

http://modules.apache.org/
http://modules.apache.org/doc/API.html (outdated)
http://apr.apache.org/
http://apr.apache.org/docs/apr/

You'll also need let me know what was the problem with the last kills page I did for you, I thought it was adequate yet we did not use it for some reason...

[Dizzy]

The map is big. We can go with the typical disengage rule if Multiple DV shifts dont work. Big map, so I wouldnt worry too much about it. Most DV's are all 10.

[Bonk]

I edited your post above to fix the images. Just link them normally and the server will take care of the redirection to the ftp server.
(e.g.: http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/Images/SG6_Website_Alliance2%20copy.jpg)
Hopefully I'll be able to complete that throttle module soon.

Here's the kills page pretty much where we left off (configured for The Forge for now):
http://www.dynaverse.net/webmap_op_sql/kills.php

[Riskyllama]

How will sQuad ships be handled for VC purposes?

Will the squad be worth any points?
Will the loss of a command ship mean the loss of the entire squad?

In fleeting?
If one of my squadrons gets grabbed in a hex with a D7, does the loss of each ship in the squadron or only the entire squadron count as a ship lost in a multiple ship battle?

[Dizzy]

My thinking is that sQuad ships won't be worth anything since all 3 blow up when the command ship dies. Unavoidable game engine problem. But other than that, they'd represent just an extra point like any other non VC ships that's pared with a vc ship in pvp. Both sides will have access to several sQuad ships.

[Bonk]

I have an alternate bandwidth throttling solution in place on the webserver now (no longer redirecting stuff in the downloads folder to the ftp server). It it a QoS solution which is the right approach anyway. Hopefully it will be stable and won't mess anything up with the webserver so I can get back to fun dyna server stuff. Writing an apache module was going to take too long and keep me from the fun stuff.

[Dizzy]

Hey I see the pics! wtg bonk. Yeah, that apache stuff sounded suky. Gud, we can focus on other things. When you want to help me with the installer?

[Bonk]

When you want to help me with the installer?

Anytime... we just need us a shiplist and missions and any custom models & models.siz file...

[Dizzy]

Ok, I need a research helper to find me the older SG5 test, bugs, shiplist issues threads. All of them. Please.

[Bonk]

Ok, I need a research helper to find me the older SG5 test, bugs, shiplist issues threads. All of them. Please.

What, is your search finger broken?   

http://www.dynaverse.net/forumsearch.php

Search for "Slave Girls" in post subjects and bodies in Dynaverse II Experiences within the last year.

Search for "SGO5" in post subjects and bodies in Dynaverse II Experiences within the last year.

Search for "SG5 " (note space) in post subjects and bodies in Dynaverse II Experiences within the last year.

Its all there. (omit the quotes from the search strings)

Some highlights:

SG5 Bug reports
SG5 Junkyard Thread
SG5 RM's give me your list of ships to cut so I may take a look.
Slave Girls V Server Description, Storyline and Rules
Slave Girls V: The Wrath of the Orion Slave Girls! Description and Rules thread.
Slave Girls V: The Wrath of the Orion Slave Girls!

[Dizzy]

U mean theres a SEARCH feature? 

thx 4 da links... I'll get busy.

[SkyFlyer]

I'm looking forward to Slave Girls X.

[Bonk]

U mean theres a SEARCH feature? 

Should be in your forums menu bar:



I busted me arse to write that script. It could still use a few touch ups to tidy the output but it works quickly, efficiently and reliably. The original search function of SMF 1.0.x was a pig for cpu usage and would cripple the server for minutes at a time while a search was underway. (Our forums database is well over 300 MB now) If you check simplemachines' site you'll see that they have "fixed" this in SMF 1.1 by automatically disabling the search function based on server load...  ... instead of just fixing the script so that it does not rape the cpu. (I believe excessive preg_replace calls are to blame) You'll find the search function at simplemachines is disabled about half the time. This, among other reasons, is why we have not and will not upgrade to SMF 1.1.

[Dizzy]

I clicked on that search link, Bonk and it takes me to some slave girls porn site... 

[Rolling]

And yet here you stand.

Began search YESTERDAY 9:48:04 PM. Showed back up TODAY 4:58:12 AM

You only spent a mere 7 hours there. Impressive.

[IndyShark]

When does SG5 start?

[762_XC]

And yet here you stand.

Began search YESTERDAY 9:48:04 PM. Showed back up TODAY 4:58:12 AM

You only spent a mere 7 hours there. Impressive.

Good thing it wasn't cow pr0n, or we'd never see the server start.

 

[Bonk]

I clicked on that search link, Bonk and it takes me to some slave girls porn site... 

You must have used the Google search and set it to search the web.

There are two search forms on that page. The one on top (Dynaverse.net Forums Search) is the forums search script I wrote, the one at the bottom (Dynaverse.net Site Search) is the Google ad sponsored search that you can use to search the Web, www.dynaverse.net, www.xenocorp.net or sfc2.net.

And yet here you stand.

Began search YESTERDAY 9:48:04 PM. Showed back up TODAY 4:58:12 AM

You only spent a mere 7 hours there. Impressive.

  Scorch, Pow!

[Father Ted]

And yet here you stand.

Began search YESTERDAY 9:48:04 PM. Showed back up TODAY 4:58:12 AM

You only spent a mere 7 hours there. Impressive.

Kimberly always gets plus karma, but this is priceless.... 

[deadmansix]

 Gentelmen and Lady's, the disengagement rule that is in place is not a good one in fact in my opinion it is a bad one and has in fact stopped several players that I know of from playing on servers that it has been implamented on, the rule that was used on the pirate server was good in my view you had to win a battel in another hex (pvp or ai ) before returning to the hex you were run out of. this is a good rule in my book.

 but this is my opinion

[Riskyllama]

 Gentelmen and Lady's, the disengagement rule that is in place is not a good one in fact in my opinion it is a bad one and has in fact stopped several players that I know of from playing on servers that it has been implamented on, the rule that was used on the pirate server was good in my view you had to win a battel in another hex (pvp or AI ) before returning to the hex you were run out of. this is a good rule in my book.

 but this is my opinion

i have to respectfully disagree...
Although I'm fairly new by most standards, I've played almost every race, including Mirak in a major campaign and I can personally find no reason on my own that a disengagement limits a player's ability to play, and would love to hear from a player affected in such a way.

I feel that this motion will only widen the difference between a 2 minute DF mission and any competition it faces, since it will prevent a run out by the larger ship from having any real meaning. Also, for a "more serious campaign" it seems too dependant on the honor code. While I'm not saying all you old farts cheat, unless a SQL's server logs can verify one that another mission was run, its all hearsay since DVs around important hexes change so fast.

[Dizzy]

There are 2 sides to this issue.

1st off there's my side. I dont like the disengage rule. I feel that whenever I get run outta a hex I cant kill peeps cuz now they are hiding from me in that hex. Cowards! Grrrr. So left to me I'd get rid of it and I'd relentlessly attack! My kill list would truly be phenominal. You would all bow b4 me... Ever since this stupid rule, my kills per server have been cut in half. Pisses me off.

Other side are strategy buffs who feel their DN should control an area of space when it runs off smaller ships so they can flip the hex. If smaller ships arnt run off with the disengage rule, then larger ships just arnt wworth anything strategically and everyone should just all hop into a mirak like DF and go flipping. And of course we cant have that! Oh noes!

SO... the compromise has been 2hrs run off and 1hr disengage. I felt that was too long and cut it in half for both. On Scipios server, it was even less time with something like win a mission somewhere else and then u can come back. There are all sorts of solutions. But I'm not reopening the debate. This has been hashed over repeatedly and although I detest the disengage rule, it is necessary until that time where the server kit can give us a multiple DV shift for pvp. Currently thats planned but not working and wont be for this server. So till then for the SG servers, please live with 1 hr disengage and 30 mins destruction for each hex. Planet hexes are different. You lose one on a planet, you're booted from all the adjacent hexes too. Oh why cant we all get along?

[762_XC]

The larger the map, the less effective the rule. If you keep the same rule and double the size of the map, there are now 4x as many hexes you have to chase the flipper out of to control the hot area. By the time you've done this he's back in the original hex he was working in. It's impossible.

I don't want another server where PvP has no meaning (besides running up your kill score) and you have to hop into a flipper to have any real effect. That's boring.

Think of something else please...you have to either go with a smaller map or the radius rule. Otherwise flippers pwn.

[Bonk]

Oi... here we go again... (dammit we need to get back to debugging the serverkit so we can move on to working on PvP DV shifts again...)

Till then, I suggested to Dizzy a version of Skull's "Slot" called "The Ring" - a small area on the map with no disengagement rule limited to smaller hulls and no significant resources so players can have unlimited PvP opportunities.

I have logged off more than one server for good because of the disengagment rule. Basically if you're not in a DN you get run out of every significant area where good PvP can be had and are relegated to running PP farming missions behind the lines or in insignificant areas of the map by yourself. Players should not be punished for not being in a DN or not being a PvP ace and being excluded from further PvP action. (That's boring)

While t00l has a good point about map size, the issue remains. For me, a "Slot" or "Ring" solves this problem - that way I can fly my CL or CA on a casual basis and still have plenty of opportunity for fun PvP battles. I think it is the best compromise for now.

[762_XC]

Well thats why we have OOB Bonk - and it DOES add some strategy to the game.

DV shifts would be ideal, but until then we gotta work with what we have.

[Bonk]

Definitely, a proper OoB is on the way eventually, gotta make use of the extra columns in OP+4... .

I vote for no disengagment rule in "The Ring" on SG6, but have it in effect everywhere else on the map. I think that would make everyone happy. (particularly me  )

[762_XC]

If we could use the radius rule on the rest of the map, that would make me happy too.

[Dizzy]

I could meet you halfway... Instead of all the surrounding hexes, just the surrounding enemy hexes.

[762_XC]

???

Why make it less effective AND more complicated?

Just use a simple radius rule and keep the slot disengagement-free. That will make everybody happy.

[Dizzy]

radius is hard to keep track of. I dont like it. So I retract my earlier statement. Already experimented with that in the field and it didnt strike me well... Im really not feeling it tool. I'm also not agreeing the map is that big, or at least the operational zones.

[762_XC]

You don't feel it because you play differently than everyone else. You're a PvP glory hound. You just want fight after fight after fight and you don't care what the map looks like.

Step outside of that mindset for a minute. Do you have any idea how easy it is to get into a hex flipper, start working a hot zone and run around peeps that are trying to chase you down? Ask Chuut, he will tell you. Even I can do it, it fact I did it quite a bit on SG5. The reason its easy is the same reason I outlined above; the DR in its current form does not make it efficient to chase people down.

Now you're telling me the map area is going to be 4x as big. What do you think the ramifications of that are? Is it going to be easier for hex flippers to avoid PvP or harder?

The server needs to BALANCE between PvP and flipping. There are peeps who like both. Don't make the server all about one at the expense of the other.

FLIP FESTS ARE BORING. Make PvP count. ON THE MAP.

[KBFLordKrueg]

The server needs to BALANCE between PvP and flipping. There are peeps who like both. Don't make the server all about one at the expense of the other.

FLIP FESTS ARE BORING. Make PvP count. ON THE MAP.

On this point, I strongly agree...

[Dfly]

Oi... here we go again... (dammit we need to get back to debugging the serverkit so we can move on to working on PvP DV shifts again...)

Till then, I suggested to Dizzy a version of Skull's "Slot" called "The Ring" - a small area on the map with no disengagement rule limited to smaller hulls and no significant resources so players can have unlimited PvP opportunities.

I have logged off more than one server for good because of the disengagment rule. Basically if you're not in a DN you get run out of every significant area where good PvP can be had and are relegated to running PP farming missions behind the lines or in insignificant areas of the map by yourself. Players should not be punished for not being in a DN or not being a PvP ace and being excluded from further PvP action. (That's boring)

While t00l has a good point about map size, the issue remains. For me, a "Slot" or "Ring" solves this problem - that way I can fly my CL or CA on a casual basis and still have plenty of opportunity for fun PvP battles. I think it is the best compromise for now.

I beleive there needs to be PvP and hex flipping.  I do quite a bit of both, though some servers I PvP more and others I flip more.  To have a "ring" where you can PvP till your heart is content is all fine and dandy, but if it means virtually nothing, then just go play on GSA. 

I suggest, if possible, to have the map divided in some fashion, where the hex flipping must be done the standard way, and some "special" areas where it is not right to go in with hex flippers, but also counts for a lot.  For instance, some hexes, say rocks and black holes, that are to be worth a lot but must have people try to control it with mainly PvP.  I realize that sometimes there may not be peops to fly against, so go hex flip somewhere else that counts for that.  If there are enemies on who wish to PvP for control, Ask, and meet them in and around those areas.  You will still get some missions where you will have AI only and end up doing some hex flipping due to the nature of the game, but try to keep those zones for PvP as much as possilble.

That is my proposal.

[Dizzy]

The server needs to BALANCE between PvP and flipping. There are peeps who like both. Don't make the server all about one at the expense of the other.

FLIP FESTS ARE BORING. Make PvP count. ON THE MAP.

On this point, I strongly agree...

You guys are cute when you're angry...

You don't feel it because you play differently than everyone else. You're a PvP glory hound. You just want fight after fight after fight and you don't care what the map looks like.

You're right... Hard for me to step outside the box on this one.

Interesting idea, Dfly. I like the idea where some places on the map are free zones where the DR rule and ship VC's are exempt. I'm gonna declare Black Hole hexes free zones. Yeah. I'll sprinkle them here and there... Ship kills and DR rule dont apply. But there wont be that many... There is always The Ring in the middle of the map for everyone else. No DR or ship VC's there either.

Ok, tool. When you disengage from an enemy, write the hex down so you remember you cant come into that hex or those surrounding it for the DR period.

[762_XC]

<gives dizzy a hug>

If this doesn't work, I promise I'll shut up about it.

[Green]

What is the start date, and will there be a post of required D/Ls? 

I assume OP+4.0 is the baseline.  True?

Thanks

[Lepton]

Hexes with max dv of 1, no disengagement rule, and draft radius of 2.  Ponder that!!!

[Bonk]

Hexes with max dv of 1, no disengagement rule, and draft radius of 2.  Ponder that!!!

Not a bad idea in principle. Problem is that flippers would have a huge advantage and the draft radius of 2 would add exponentially to serverload.

When I was flying with the KATs one night we invaded a TAG server that used the server default DV shifts on the stock map. (DV shifts of 5 and hex DVs of 5-50) We flipped pretty much the whole map cyan in about 6 hours, it was a blast. I think we cheesed the TAG guys off pretty good though, I remember they were pretty ticked when I took out two of their ISC BBs with 3xMDCs...   

However, your suggestion is worth some thought, as by playing with hex DVs and DV shifts one can possibly mitigate the flipper vs PvP dilemma somewhat.

[IAF Lyrkiller]

Hexes with max dv of 1, no disengagement rule, and draft radius of 2.  Ponder that!!!

Not a bad idea in principle. Problem is that flippers would have a huge advantage and the draft radius of 2 would add exponentially to serverload.

When I was flying with the KATs one night we invaded a TAG server that used the server default DV shifts on the stock map. (DV shifts of 5 and hex DVs of 5-50) We flipped pretty much the whole map cyan in about 6 hours, it was a blast. I think we cheesed the TAG guys off pretty good though, I remember they were pretty ticked when I took out two of their ISC BBs with 3xMDCs...   

However, your suggestion is worth some thought, as by playing with hex DVs and DV shifts one can possibly mitigate the flipper vs PvP dilemma somewhat.

And the Mirak would rule the map.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Hexes with max dv of 1, no disengagement rule, and draft radius of 2.  Ponder that!!!

Not a bad idea in principle. Problem is that flippers would have a huge advantage and the draft radius of 2 would add exponentially to serverload.

When I was flying with the KATs one night we invaded a TAG server that used the server default DV shifts on the stock map. (DV shifts of 5 and hex DVs of 5-50) We flipped pretty much the whole map cyan in about 6 hours, it was a blast. I think we cheesed the TAG guys off pretty good though, I remember they were pretty ticked when I took out two of their ISC BBs with 3xMDCs...   

However, your suggestion is worth some thought, as by playing with hex DVs and DV shifts one can possibly mitigate the flipper vs PvP dilemma somewhat.

Well we outflipped them and when they went into PvP with us they tended to die.  There were a few decent pilots among them even 1 or 2 good ones, but the rest went for the sanctuary of bigger ships and jumped into BBs we killed those too.   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Ok, tool. When you disengage from an enemy, write the hex down so you remember you cant come into that hex or those surrounding it for the DR period.

Disengagement radius should only apply near fixed assets like bases or planets, in open space it is senseless, even if the rule only applies to t00l like you suggest.

Make it around the fixed assets and I'll support it 100%, otherwise consider me opposed.

P.S.  I really think Duck should fly Gorn too.  He has the balls for it for sure.

<Triple Snicker>

[Doctor Lazarus]

Hexes with max dv of 1, no disengagement rule, and draft radius of 2.  Ponder that!!!

That's brilliant, Lepton!  Do you know, I tried to move the Earth yesterday, and it was really, really heavy.  Narf!

[Bonk]

Well we outflipped them and when they went into PvP with us they tended to die.  There were a few decent pilots among them even 1 or 2 good ones, but the rest went for the sanctuary of bigger ships and jumped into BBs we killed those too.   

Yup, my reponse to 2-3 ISC BBs winging together was a squad of MDCs. I do like a good cheesefest occasionally!    Pretty cool bunch of guys though, they were pretty good about the whole thing and I think they had good fun too. They didn't get all snarky or anything and still played on other servers and GSA with us.

[762_XC]

I don't think he meant it's only going to apply to me, Chuut. <snicker>

[Lepton]

While I was being a bit facetious with my suggestion, I do think that a low dv, high draft radius combination might lead to some interesting results.  While territory would easily be lost, it would also be easily regained.  The high draft radius would possibly find the flipper engaged in much more PvP action than he intended.  Using a high draft radius would make any hot area a really hot area and also make those areas easier to defend, I think.  However, it sounds as if the server could not handle the large draft radius, but I think the idea is intriguing.

[Dizzy]

Lepton, it may work on a smaller map with fewer players. An idea I've always wanted to try was a small map, say 12x12 with a limit of 18 players. 1 hex draft radius and combination of some core area high DV's with fluid lower DV's in all the other areas. Make it a one week server with some interesting ship choices and you'd have something quite different.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I don't think he meant it's only going to apply to me, Chuut. <snicker>

Likely not Dizzy isn't really a true bastard, but the club would have to vote him in if he did do that 

[KBF-Nail]

When does it start Dizzy? So I can reload my game and get rdy?

[Dizzy]

Ummm if I'm lucky Ill have everything ready this friday. Ummm if Im not lucky... the server will likely go up anyway and some things will be done later. Either way, plan for friday.

[Bonk]

You mean the test server right? And you mean thursday right? Or we can call you Dizzy the geophage right?

[Dizzy]

Right, hehe, thurs.

EDIT: Bonk, u really think we need a week to test it? Nah... one day test server we go live this fri? What do u think?

[Bonk]

Right, hehe, thurs.

EDIT: Bonk, u really think we need a week to test it? Nah... one day test server we go live this fri? What do u think?

Maybe give it at least two days to test and launch on Saturday? We have a lot of functionality to test.

[762_XC]

No rush guys. I think we all want to see it work the first time.

[KBFLordKrueg]

No rush guys. I think we all want to see it work the first time.

Agreed...
Better to test longer to be sure than rush it and have to restart after a few days. 
I think we all remember how frustrating that can be to players, not to mention the negative effects that usually follow such a restart.   

[Dizzy]

Yeah ok, we'll wait till it all works. Probably best that way. We will get it up this weekend and begin testing. There are a few specific things that need going over. Im glad we all agree not to rush it. I want it to work out of the starting gate as much as the next guy.


1. New ED missions that need some checking out. These neww missions will thrill.
2. OCI stuff. Needs a good workout and this includes it all... web page functionality, character options, RM features, map editing, shipyard function, web warping, kill page... all of it.
3. Some other areas of testing will be making herr burts Squadron Commander II PF Flotillas work seamlessly with the rest of the shiplist. This is a tall order because the shiplists are largely incompatible and will take major work to integrate it. After going thru it I'm thinking a simpler version of it will be in order.
4. The map and where all the terrain and hexes are going needs to be looked at. We can use the web page for this. Gotta make sure planets end up only in empty hexes.
5. The usual, making sure all the missions affect the dv's properly, all the ships and models work, all that.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Yeah ok, we'll wait till it all works. Probably best that way. We will get it up this weekend and begin testing. There are a few specific things that need going over. Im glad we all agree not to rush it. I want it to work out of the starting gate as much as the next guy.


1. New ED missions that need some checking out. These neww missions will thrill.
2. OCI stuff. Needs a good workout and this includes it all... web page functionality, character options, RM features, map editing, shipyard function, web warping, kill page... all of it.
3. Some other areas of testing will be making herr burts Squadron Commander II PF Flotillas work seamlessly with the rest of the shiplist. This is a tall order because the shiplists are largely incompatible and will take major work to integrate it. After going thru it I'm thinking a simpler version of it will be in order.
4. The map and where all the terrain and hexes are going needs to be looked at. We can use the web page for this. Gotta make sure planets end up only in empty hexes.
5. The usual, making sure all the missions affect the dv's properly, all the ships and models work, all that.

RE: 3  If there turns out to be major issues with the integration, IMHPO, better to drop that aspect of it in favor of using the many other new things. 

[NuclearWessels]

Yeah ok, we'll wait till it all works. Probably best that way. We will get it up this weekend and begin testing. There are a few specific things that need going over. Im glad we all agree not to rush it. I want it to work out of the starting gate as much as the next guy.


1. New ED missions that need some checking out. These neww missions will thrill.
2. OCI stuff. Needs a good workout and this includes it all... web page functionality, character options, RM features, map editing, shipyard function, web warping, kill page... all of it.
3. Some other areas of testing will be making herr burts Squadron Commander II PF Flotillas work seamlessly with the rest of the shiplist. This is a tall order because the shiplists are largely incompatible and will take major work to integrate it. After going thru it I'm thinking a simpler version of it will be in order.
4. The map and where all the terrain and hexes are going needs to be looked at. We can use the web page for this. Gotta make sure planets end up only in empty hexes.
5. The usual, making sure all the missions affect the dv's properly, all the ships and models work, all that.

Whew!   I was sweating a bit at the thought of just a day or two of testing... the interaction of new missions with ships in all eras is always worth checking (not that my missions would ever be flawed of course  )

dave

[Dizzy]

RE: 3  If there turns out to be major issues with the integration, IMHPO, better to drop that aspect of it in favor of using the many other new things. 

Right. I'm not waiting more than a week to make sure it works. It either will for SG6 or it will for SG7. 

[KBFLordKrueg]

I finally took the time to really take a good look at the rules posted, and offer my thoughts and comments on a few.

- Black Hole hexes are free hexes that exempt players from both the Disengage Rule and ship VC's. Just have fun in these hexes.
If a Capitol ship is lost in one of these, can it be then replaced at 0 cost?
Or is it gone for good?

Fighter CnC
No other fighters restrictions other than the ones posted? Or more coming?

Bounties!
Do these need to be posted publicly?
Or simply recorded in the Appropriate sides forum?

Bases
IMOPO, Bases need to be ridiculously expensive to prevent them being dropped dropped all over the map.
Realisticly, they would be just that and rarely placed anywhere they could be in real danger.

- If you are forced to Disengage in a PvP match, then you are banned from the hex you either took the mission in or were drafted in and all the hexes adjacent to that one for 15 turns. If your ship was destroyed then you are banned from that hex and all adjacent hexes for 8 turns.

Being run out of 7 hexes at a time EVERYWHERE is NOT going to go over too well with the general population of players, methinks. 
How about that applies to planets and possibly bases only?
Not to every single hex on the map...
I doubt that will do much to encourage some to fly during this campaign...

Wild Geese

I've never been a big fan of this, period.
And of all the times it's been implimented in the rules, I've only seen it actually happen once...
We shall see how it plays out...
I can see where constant shifting of sides by players may cause ill feeling and resentment amoug the side whose players are forced to switch when you're making real progress. 


- If you disengage or are destroyed in a game and there are others still fighting, you may not leave the game until the match is finished.

I hope this can be enforced, since it still seems to happen way more than it should. 


I also assume we'll have forums on sfc.net...?

2. OCI stuff. Needs a good workout and this includes it all... web page functionality, character options, RM features, map editing, shipyard function, web warping, kill page... all of it.

I'm really liking using many of these on The Forge, looking forward to this aspect of it being used here.
RM features...? 
Like what?

*deposits 2 cents*

[Dizzy]

- Black Hole hexes are free hexes that exempt players from both the Disengage Rule and ship VC's. Just have fun in these hexes.
If a Capitol ship is lost in one of these, can it be then replaced at 0 cost?
Or is it gone for good?

Of course its not free. It will cost whatever pp to buy it back. But buy it right back you may. There will not be a penalty of any kind in these hexes. I'll detail it just that way.

Fighter CnC
No other fighters restrictions other than the ones posted? Or more coming?

I dont think so.

Bounties!
Do these need to be posted publicly?
Or simply recorded in the Appropriate sides forum?

Like I said, Im not doing bounties but will be happy to include them in the final numbers should you and tool agree on a method to track and implement them.

Bases
IMOPO, Bases need to be ridiculously expensive to prevent them being dropped dropped all over the map.
Realisticly, they would be just that and rarely placed anywhere they could be in real danger.

They will be. And the news, should peeps be wary of it, will betray their location. Spies, orion pirates and all sorts of clandestine forces consipire to work against the secrecy of placing them. This will give the nutters something to do.

- If you are forced to Disengage in a PvP match, then you are banned from the hex you either took the mission in or were drafted in and all the hexes adjacent to that one for 15 turns. If your ship was destroyed then you are banned from that hex and all adjacent hexes for 8 turns.

Being run out of 7 hexes at a time EVERYWHERE is NOT going to go over too well with the general population of players, methinks. 
How about that applies to planets and possibly bases only?
Not to every single hex on the map...
I doubt that will do much to encourage some to fly during this campaign...

Im not a fan either. Tool is behind this. However, from your response earlier in, I thought you supported this. I suggest you get together with tool and figure something out.

Wild Geese

I've never been a big fan of this, period.
And of all the times it's been implimented in the rules, I've only seen it actually happen once...
We shall see how it plays out...
I can see where constant shifting of sides by players may cause ill feeling and resentment amoug the side whose players are forced to switch when you're making real progress. 

After running 5 servers I dont give a frack how a few players feel. When has anyone asked how I fee? lol. 25% of my PM inbox is filled with hate mail... well, maybe 20%. No good deed goes unpunished but what isnt debatable is to let a landslide victory ever happen again on a dyna. I've been on both ends of an AI server and it aint fun on either side. So right when you feel you're making real progress, dont think that will translate into a runaway victory. I'll see to that. But your point is noted. If the geese swap an odd number of times, I might look at awarding a planet equivalent VC point to the team that made the most progress and didnt need them. We'll see.

- If you disengage or are destroyed in a game and there are others still fighting, you may not leave the game until the match is finished.

I hope this can be enforced, since it still seems to happen way more than it should. 

I simply need to be made aware of it. That is all.

I also assume we'll have forums on sfc.net...?

Im not sure who to ask about this. Capt Jeff perhaps? You'll need to look into that otherwise we may need to have an alliance and coalition froum here on these boards. I suggest you ask frey and or bonk.

2. OCI stuff. Needs a good workout and this includes it all... web page functionality, character options, RM features, map editing, shipyard function, web warping, kill page... all of it.

I'm really liking using many of these on The Forge, looking forward to this aspect of it being used here.
RM features...? 
Like what?

RM's will be able to assign ships to players. This may come in handy with special ships like conjectural designs, restricted ships, etc... We are working to also enable you to be able to change players locations on the map and possibly their prestige. We havent decided. But you think it we might implement it.

*deposits 2 cents*

We're not doing pennies anymore, please round up.

[NuclearWessels]

...
After running 5 servers I dont give a frack how a few players feel. When has anyone asked how I fee? lol. 25% of my PM inbox is filled with hate mail... well, maybe 20%.
...

20%?   20%???

<makes note to send Dizzy more hatemail>

Maybe I'll just cc you on the ones I send to Hexx and vice versa   

dave

[Hexx]

Dunno if it's what Krueg is getting at, ot it's been covered (damn meds) but
from what I can tell you can fly a full carrier (with 16 plasma fighters) and a casual carrier (with 8 plasma fighters) together.
By my math that's.. well it's alot of plasma fighters.

Now I know you and DH love flying those Gorn cheesboats, but I'd suggest maybe making the plasma boyz go 50/50?

That's a good little Dizzy.

[Dizzy]

U read the carrier rule wrong.

Here is MY rule: - Only one full or casual carrier is allowed with a wing, but with 2 wingmates, a full or casual carrier may be escorted by a casual carrier. A full carrier has 16+ ftrs and a casual has 8-15. A ship with 7 ftrs or less is treated as a regular line ship.

Here is DH's rule: - Use the ship class of CARRIER to designate a "carrier."  One BCH, DN, CVA, BB (if BBs are in) or CARRIER per fleet.

I havent decided which to use.

Afa all of the ftrs being plasma... well that means you have 1 or 2 shots and you're done. Those ftrs have nothing that can hit far away... and their defensive phaser suck pretty bad and they are SLOW. If you ever get hit by plasma ftrs its cuz ur too slow. I dont think they need a CnC cuz both sides have access to them and they arnt uber.

[Dfly]

U read the carrier rule wrong.

Here is MY rule: - Only one full or casual carrier is allowed with a wing, but with 2 wingmates, a full or casual carrier may be escorted by a casual carrier. A full carrier has 16+ ftrs and a casual has 8-15. A ship with 7 ftrs or less is treated as a regular line ship.

Here is DH's rule: - Use the ship class of CARRIER to designate a "carrier."  One BCH, DN, CVA, BB (if BBs are in) or CARRIER per fleet.

I havent decided which to use.

Afa all of the ftrs being plasma... well that means you have 1 or 2 shots and you're done. Those ftrs have nothing that can hit far away... and their defensive phaser suck pretty bad and they are SLOW. If you ever get hit by plasma ftrs its cuz ur too slow. I dont think they need a CnC cuz both sides have access to them and they arnt uber.

With the way your ruling works, I could fly for example a Hydran IC with 24 fighters, my wing may have a casual carrier with his say 14 fighters on his CAV+ and my other wing can have a line ship with up to 7 fighters so perhaps the LM with 6.  That would make a fleet of 3 ships with a total of 44 Hellbore carrying fighters.  OUCH. 

As per DH, one carrier per grouping would make more sense to me.  The Hydrans do have the advantage of using say the IC with 24 and 2 LM with 6 each, which is still 36 fighters.  I realize the Hydrans must make use of fighters more than other races but thought perhaps mentioning them, or even the ISC fighters over the Rom fighters might be more poignant.

I do hope you go with DH ruling on this one, just an opinion.  Either way you will see me there.

[Dizzy]

The hydrans have 2x ships with 8 ftrs that arnt carriers. So they, according to DH's rule could field 24+8+8 = 40 ftrs. That's only 4 less than my way. Either way, the Hydrans own when it comes to fielding ftrs. That's their racial flavor.

Now lets take another race... the ISC. At most, they'd field 16 from a CVA. And then they are done with DH's rule. With my rule they could field another 8 for a total of 24. And that is about how every race would be.

Either way, both rules eliminate a group of two players flying carriers together which is why these rules are proposed.

In closing, my rule enables other races to close the gap somewhat on the Hydrans being able to dominate with so many ftrs. DH's rule exacerbates this problem, but at the same time it drastically reduces the amount of cheese in a mission to very manageable levels.

I'll let this simmer a bit till I hear back from the R/ARM's. I'm undecided, really.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

K, I will be around for part of this server... This weekend is out for me though... I have a wedding to go to... will be back Sunday sometime...

First week of the server I can play... then off to Pennsic, but I will have plenty of time to fly since I will be off next week.

Dizzy, I like your CnC with regards to carriers. 

I know it will scare the bejeezus out of some people.

But think about this... t00l will never let us buy an H-IC b/c they are such a one trick pony....  now a pair of CAV's with Deadman in one of them is something to worry about though. (he is absolutely amazing in that thing)

I think the disengagement rule of the hex and surrounding hexes should be applied to planets and bases only.

[762_XC]

I would prefer DH's rule, simply because it's more logical to allow a Ranger or Mohawk to wing with a carrier. Honestly there aren't many Hydrans (aside from deadman) who like flying the true carriers anyway. Like Bear says, they are one trick ponies.

About the only time you'll see a big swarm like that is if we are base-busting.

[Dizzy]

I would prefer DH's rule...

Im sure you do, as it guarantees you will always have at least double the number of ftrs anyone else can field. I'd rather use my rule and just exempt the ranger and mohawk. They arnt defined as carriers anyway.

Edit: and then we are looking at serious lag issues as well I suspect. I'd never want to try and play against 40-44 ftrs. Thats insane. Can a match be played lag free that way?

[762_XC]

Did you bother reading, Dizzy? We don't use fleets like that.

It's not a big deal either way, but don't accuse me of being a race whore when I'm simply out for logic and simplicity. 

[Dizzy]

- If you are forced to Disengage in a PvP match, then you are banned from the hex you either took the mission in or were drafted in and all the hexes adjacent to that one for 15 turns. If your ship was destroyed then you are banned from that hex and all adjacent hexes for 8 turns.

Being run out of 7 hexes at a time EVERYWHERE is NOT going to go over too well with the general population of players, methinks. 
How about that applies to planets and possibly bases only?
Not to every single hex on the map...
I doubt that will do much to encourage some to fly during this campaign...

Obviously from your above comments... you wernt paying attention when you wrote this on page two:

The server needs to BALANCE between PvP and flipping. There are peeps who like both. Don't make the server all about one at the expense of the other.

FLIP FESTS ARE BORING. Make PvP count. ON THE MAP.

On this point, I strongly agree...

So which is it? You want 7 hex bans or not? Tool lobbied hard for this and I agreed after seeing what appeared to be you agreeing with him. So can we get this out of the way now?

[762_XC]

Krueg, remember this will be a huge map compared to the last one. I'm sure your pilots would like to fly something other than a D5D.

P.S. I can easily set up Alliance and Coalition forums here.

[KBFLordKrueg]

P.S. I can easily set up Alliance and Coalition forums here.

Here or sfc2.net, doesn't matter really.
Just need one somewhere.
TY, sir.

[KBFLordKrueg]

- If you are forced to Disengage in a PvP match, then you are banned from the hex you either took the mission in or were drafted in and all the hexes adjacent to that one for 15 turns. If your ship was destroyed then you are banned from that hex and all adjacent hexes for 8 turns.

Being run out of 7 hexes at a time EVERYWHERE is NOT going to go over too well with the general population of players, methinks. 
How about that applies to planets and possibly bases only?
Not to every single hex on the map...
I doubt that will do much to encourage some to fly during this campaign...

Obviously from your above comments... you wernt paying attention when you wrote this on page two:

The server needs to BALANCE between PvP and flipping. There are peeps who like both. Don't make the server all about one at the expense of the other.

FLIP FESTS ARE BORING. Make PvP count. ON THE MAP.

On this point, I strongly agree...

So which is it? You want 7 hex bans or not? Tool lobbied hard for this and I agreed after seeing what appeared to be you agreeing with him. So can we get this out of the way now?

Notice I said "on this point". Notice I also took out the rest of the post besides the ONE point I was agreeing with. 

Notice I also didn't say I personally was so much opposed to it as I think most players overall won't care for it.
Me personally, I still think having the "7 hex ban" would be fine for planets and bases. But, Not too terribly thrilled about it being for every single hex, tho.

[762_XC]

Well, let's try it. Personally I think if we exclude open space people will end up spending 80% of their time in flippers.

Anyway boards are up, Alliance and Coalition. RM's are set for access; I need a signup list before adding anyone else.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Well, let's try it. Personally I think if we exclude open space people will end up spending 80% of their time in flippers.

Anyway boards are up, Alliance and Coalition. RM's are set for access; I need a signup list before adding anyone else.

Are you the only one who can grant access?
Or can RM and/or SCCs do it also?

And TY, sir.

As far as the other, I don't mind trying anything once...
IMO, I just felt it wouldn't be too popular with the general population.

[762_XC]

I made you the Coalition forum moderator. Unfortunately the way these forums work, only admins can grant access.

If you start a signup thread, I promise I'll stay on top of it and make sure the peeps in the thread get access.

[Hexx]

Is there a list of the CJ designs being used and their availability?
IE Lyran CVA/BCV // Fed CS // KCR // CVP's //CVD's

[Dizzy]

Is there a list of the CJ designs being used and their availability?
IE Lyran CVA/BCV // Fed CS // KCR // CVP's //CVD's

I'd love there to be. I think Bonk can setup a special shipyard only for admins with one of a kind ships that only they can assign to players. If the player sells it in shipdock it goes back into the special yards onlyu the RM';s can access. So once they are destroyed, they are gone. Be cool to have conjectural ships like these...

But yeah, the question is what ships are conjectural?

[KBF-Kapact]

All the rules look okay... the girls look fine  and I'm back online, so I'm looking forward to it.

[KBFLordKrueg]

I made you the Coalition forum moderator. Unfortunately the way these forums work, only admins can grant access.

If you start a signup thread, I promise I'll stay on top of it and make sure the peeps in the thread get access.

Ty, sir. I shall do so.

Still not real happy with the 7-hex disengagement thing however...
How about we hear from more of the general population on it?
So far T00l and I are the only ones who've posted about it.
RMs we may be...but, with unhappy players we'll be nothing.
Perhaps a Poll?
Fair enough...?

I still would be OK with it regarding planets and possibly bases.
But, I think it's a bit much for ALL hexes.

The maps not THAT big...

[Dfly]

I am for the 7 hex rule, provided it is for planets and bases only.  as per any other hex it should be that hex only.  MPO

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

planets and bases only....

[Dizzy]

This thread is more of an in development rules and feedback thread touching off on everything. Not all of the players bother reading it as its geared more toward the RM's. I'd be surprised if many more offer feedback. So you two figure out what that rule is gonna say, its one that wont be good to change after the server starts so we need to get it right. Public awarness and feedback is now on ya'lls shoulders.

[762_XC]

None of us has seen the actual MAP yet, or played on the test server.

I would prefer to shelve this discussion at least until then.

[Dizzy]

Is there a list of the CJ designs being used and their availability?
IE Lyran CVA/BCV // Fed CS // KCR // CVP's //CVD's

I'd hate to see 3x CS+'s in a mission together since historically only ONE was made. I'd like a list of conjectural ships, if someone can come up with one. I can then look at if we can have a simple cnc rule like one conjectural design per fleet or something...

[Dizzy]

U read the carrier rule wrong.

Here is MY rule: - Only one full or casual carrier is allowed with a wing, but with 2 wingmates, a full or casual carrier may be escorted by a casual carrier. A full carrier has 16+ ftrs and a casual has 8-15. A ship with 7 ftrs or less is treated as a regular line ship.

Here is DH's rule: - Use the ship class of CARRIER to designate a "carrier."  One BCH, DN, CVA, BB (if BBs are in) or CARRIER per fleet.

I havent decided which to use.

Afa all of the ftrs being plasma... well that means you have 1 or 2 shots and you're done. Those ftrs have nothing that can hit far away... and their defensive phaser suck pretty bad and they are SLOW. If you ever get hit by plasma ftrs its cuz ur too slow. I dont think they need a CnC cuz both sides have access to them and they arnt uber.

Ok, here is the carrier rule: One CARRIER per fleet with no more than 32 total fighters per fleet. View the shiplist 'Class Type' column to see what is and is not a carrier.

This decision was not reached easily but appears to present the most balanced solution possible. DH and I tested many variables and that's what we came up with. Hope it suits your fancy.

[762_XC]

View the shiplist 'Class Type' column to see what is and is not a carrier.

Don't you dare do this to the RM's. If you're going to have this rule, put a little v in front of the damn ship name so we can avoid problems please.

[Bonk]

I'd like a list of conjectural ships, if someone can come up with one. I can then look at if we can have a simple cnc rule like one conjectural design per fleet or something...

From the F&E rules:

Lyran CVA
Lyran BCV
Gorn CVA
Gorn CVS
Gorn BCV
Fed PFs
Fed NPF

Though I know there are a bunch more from the SFB Modules... But I don't have that data anymore.

[Bonk]

Ty, sir. I shall do so.

Still not real happy with the 7-hex disengagement thing however...
How about we hear from more of the general population on it?
So far T00l and I are the only ones who've posted about it.
RMs we may be...but, with unhappy players we'll be nothing.
Perhaps a Poll?
Fair enough...?

I still would be OK with it regarding planets and possibly bases.
But, I think it's a bit much for ALL hexes.

The maps not THAT big...

I have spoken on this issue. A 7 hex disengagement rule is insane. A one hex disengagement rule is barely tolerable and only if there  is a disengagement rule free zone somewhere on the map where all players can get to to have some fun battles whenever they like.

[Dizzy]

View the shiplist 'Class Type' column to see what is and is not a carrier.

Don't you dare do this to the RM's. If you're going to have this rule, put a little v in front of the damn ship name so we can avoid problems please.

Federation   CL   F-NVL
Federation   CL   F-NVL+
Federation   CL   F-NVS
Federation   CL   F-HDWV
Federation   CA   F-CVF
Federation   CA   F-NCV
Federation   CA   F-CVS
Federation   CA   F-CVS+
Federation   CA   F-CVSR
Federation   CA   F-CVL
Federation   CA   F-CVL+
Federation   CA   F-CVLR
Federation   CL   F-NPF
Federation   CL   F-NHP
Federation   CA   F-CAP
Gorn   FF   G-PFT
Gorn   FF   G-BDP
Gorn   CL   G-HDP
Gorn   CL   G-HBDP
Gorn   CA   G-CMP
Gorn   CA   G-CVT
Gorn   CA   G-CV
Gorn   CA   G-CVS
Gorn   CL   G-CVP
Hydran   FF   H-UH
Hydran   FF   H-UH+
Hydran   CL   H-LNHV1
Hydran   CL   H-LNHV2
Hydran   CL   H-NVL
Hydran   CL   H-NVL+
Hydran   CL   H-COS
Hydran   CL   H-HDWV1
Hydran   CL   H-HDWV2
Hydran   CA   H-MKV
Hydran   CA   H-CAV
Hydran   CA   H-CAV+
ISC   CL   I-CVL
ISC   CL   I-CVLZ
ISC   CL   I-CVLP
ISC   CL   I-CVLS
ISC   CL   I-CSF
ISC   CL   I-CSFZ
ISC   CL   I-CVF
ISC   CL   I-CVFZ
ISC   CL   I-HDDV
ISC   CA   I-CV
ISC   CA   I-CVZ
ISC   CA   I-CVS
ISC   CA   I-CVSZ
ISC   CA   I-BCS (Also a BC)
Klingon   CL   K-D5V
Klingon   CL   K-D5VK
Klingon   CA   K-D6V
Klingon   CA   K-D6VK
Klingon   CA   K-D6VR
Klingon   CA   K-D7V
Klingon   CA   K-D7VK
Klingon   CA   K-DWV
Klingon   CA   K-C7S (Also a BC)
Lyran   FF   L-PFT
Lyran   CL   L-PFW
Lyran   CL   L-PFWP
Lyran   CL   L-JGPP
Lyran   CL   L-HDWP
Lyran   CA   L-NPF
Lyran   CA   L-CV
Lyran   CA   L-CV+p
Lyran   CL   L-CVL
Lyran   CL   L-CVLp
Mirak   CL   Z-MCV
Mirak   CL   Z-MCV+
Mirak   CL   Z-HDWV
Mirak   CL   Z-HDWVm
Mirak   CA   Z-NCV
Mirak   CA   Z-CVL
Mirak   CA   Z-CVL+
Mirak   CA   Z-CVLR
Mirak   CA   Z-CV
Mirak   CA   Z-CVS
Mirak   CA   Z-CVSR
Romulan   FF   R-SKC
Romulan   CL   R-SPE
Romulan   CL   R-SBHP
Romulan   CL   R-KDP
Romulan   CA   R-KRP
Romulan   CA   R-FH-E
Romulan   CA   R-RG-E
Romulan   CL   R-KDV
Romulan   CA   R-K7VR
Romulan   CA   R-KRV
Romulan   CA   R-KRVB
Romulan   CA   R-FH-B
Romulan   CA   R-SUA
Romulan   CA   R-SUK
Romulan   CA   R-RG-B
Romulan   CA   R-RG-E
Romulan   CA   R-KWV

Problem solved

[Dizzy]

I have spoken on this issue. A 7 hex disengagement rule is insane. A one hex disengagement rule is barely tolerable and only if there  is a disengagement rule free zone somewhere on the map where all players can get to to have some fun battles whenever they like.

To make sure everyone understands... the hex you either are drafted in or take the mission in and all the adjacent hexes to this are the ones we are discussing. Its either thse 7 total hexes or just one hex. Not 7 hex radius or 7 wide or anything like that. 1 hex plus those adjacent for a total of 7. Chuut misunderstood this. Figured I'd clear it.

[FPF-DieHard]

View the shiplist 'Class Type' column to see what is and is not a carrier.

Don't you dare do this to the RM's. If you're going to have this rule, put a little v in front of the damn ship name so we can avoid problems please.

Federation   CL   F-NVL
Federation   CL   F-NVL+
Federation   CL   F-NVS
Federation   CL   F-HDWV
Federation   CA   F-CVF
Federation   CA   F-NCV
Federation   CA   F-CVS
Federation   CA   F-CVS+
Federation   CA   F-CVSR
Federation   CA   F-CVL
Federation   CA   F-CVL+
Federation   CA   F-CVLR
Federation   CL   F-NPF
Federation   CL   F-NHP
Federation   CA   F-CAP
Gorn   FF   G-PFT
Gorn   FF   G-BDP
Gorn   CL   G-HDP
Gorn   CL   G-HBDP
Gorn   CA   G-CMP
Gorn   CA   G-CVT
Gorn   CA   G-CV
Gorn   CA   G-CVS
Gorn   CL   G-CVP
Hydran   FF   H-UH
Hydran   FF   H-UH+
Hydran   CL   H-LNHV1
Hydran   CL   H-LNHV2
Hydran   CL   H-NVL
Hydran   CL   H-NVL+
Hydran   CL   H-COS
Hydran   CL   H-HDWV1
Hydran   CL   H-HDWV2
Hydran   CA   H-MKV
Hydran   CA   H-CAV
Hydran   CA   H-CAV+
ISC   CL   I-CVL
ISC   CL   I-CVLZ
ISC   CL   I-CVLP
ISC   CL   I-CVLS
ISC   CL   I-CSF
ISC   CL   I-CSFZ
ISC   CL   I-CVF
ISC   CL   I-CVFZ
ISC   CL   I-HDDV
ISC   CA   I-CV
ISC   CA   I-CVZ
ISC   CA   I-CVS
ISC   CA   I-CVSZ
ISC   CA   I-BCS (Also a BC)
Klingon   CL   K-D5V
Klingon   CL   K-D5VK
Klingon   CA   K-D6V
Klingon   CA   K-D6VK
Klingon   CA   K-D6VR
Klingon   CA   K-D7V
Klingon   CA   K-D7VK
Klingon   CA   K-DWV
Klingon   CA   K-C7S (Also a BC)
Lyran   FF   L-PFT
Lyran   CL   L-PFW
Lyran   CL   L-PFWP
Lyran   CL   L-JGPP
Lyran   CL   L-HDWP
Lyran   CA   L-NPF
Lyran   CA   L-CV
Lyran   CA   L-CV+p
Lyran   CL   L-CVL
Lyran   CL   L-CVLp
Mirak   CL   Z-MCV
Mirak   CL   Z-MCV+
Mirak   CL   Z-HDWV
Mirak   CL   Z-HDWVm
Mirak   CA   Z-NCV
Mirak   CA   Z-CVL
Mirak   CA   Z-CVL+
Mirak   CA   Z-CVLR
Mirak   CA   Z-CV
Mirak   CA   Z-CVS
Mirak   CA   Z-CVSR
Romulan   FF   R-SKC
Romulan   CL   R-SPE
Romulan   CL   R-SBHP
Romulan   CL   R-KDP
Romulan   CA   R-KRP
Romulan   CA   R-FH-E
Romulan   CA   R-RG-E
Romulan   CL   R-KDV
Romulan   CA   R-K7VR
Romulan   CA   R-KRV
Romulan   CA   R-KRVB
Romulan   CA   R-FH-B
Romulan   CA   R-SUA
Romulan   CA   R-SUK
Romulan   CA   R-RG-B
Romulan   CA   R-RG-E
Romulan   CA   R-KWV

Problem solved

Um, the CVAs count to, right?   I think this is what we came up with when crunching thr numbers but this should be made official

[762_XC]

OK Diz, I'll tell all my players to log out of D2 and check your list before fleeting with anybody.

[Dizzy]

Right, DH... that and CVA's. Tool's got a point here. Why not say anything with 8+ftrs is a carrier cept those two hydran cruisers? Some HDWV's would get left out tho... Kinda conflicted on what's easiest.

[762_XC]

What's easiest is putting a little v in front of the ship name so peeps dont get confused. At least do the ones that don't already have a big V in the name, so you don't get two SUB's winging together. PPL aren't gonna read your list Diz, so make it easy.

Send me the damn shiplist and I will do it myself.

[Dizzy]

No, because then films wont work between campaigns.

Look, if your wingman doesnt know he's got a ship with 8 ftrs then he needs to return the game to the store. He needs to probably return his computer as well and ask the school district for MY taxpayer dollars back for all the math classes he's taken.

[FPF-DieHard]

What's easiest is putting a little v in front of the ship name so peeps dont get confused. At least do the ones that don't already have a big V in the name, so you don't get two SUB's winging together. PPL aren't gonna read your list Diz, so make it easy.

Send me the damn shiplist and I will do it myself.

THis is reatarted.   The ship class shows as CARRIER, you don't need to do anything more.   If your too stupid to figure this out you shouldn't be allowed to use a PC

[Hexx]

I can do a list of the CJ ships, (even though it looks like you bastards are pushing the start date back
with every new innovation..grr make it have all this cool stuff and I won't be able to play)
But what do you want, there;s a couple of different things..

Conjectural- the ships that never existed, but circumstances being different may have been built
                (ie Lyran & Gorn CVA/BCV's,battleships,Gorn DNE)
Very Conjectural- things that never ever would have been built (Fed PF's)
Unique- ships that one were built (ie Fed CS)
Unbuilt Variants -ships that had been designed, but for whatver reason weren't actually made
                      (ie Lyran CVD, Hydram LGE+)
Taldren- Ships that Taldren built. (D7T,BCE,NCM,DNHE etc)

I'd humbly suggest if any restrictions be in that they only be on Unique & CJ units, but let me know what you want

[Bonk]

According to OP+4 "ProductionAvailability" the following ships are "UNIQUE":

F-Pres
F-CS
F-CS+
F-CSR
F-CVF
F-NCM
F-BCE
F-DVL
G-DDW
G-DNL
H-RGR
H-D7H
H-D7H+
H-DNW
H-IC
H-IC+
H-ID
K-B10V
L-DND
L-DNDF
L-CAL
L-CALF
L-DNW
L-DNWF
L-DNWT
L-DSB+
L-DSBR
L-DBC
L-DBCP
L-WPBB
L-WPBBF
Z-DDV
Z-WAxCVA
Z-WACVAR
Z-WAxDN1
Z-WADN1m
Z-WAxDN2
R-KHK

[Dizzy]

TY Bonk + karma for that list. Now Hexx, can u find the rare conjectural designs? I know the KCR is on that list.

Once I get a better picture of what they are we can begin looking at a way to devise controlling them. If we cant, I dont see much hope for OoB in the future, but at the same time, if it's too complicated or difficult to police, I'll abandon the idea.

[Bonk]

A fully automated OoB is entirely feasible with the OCI and an OP+4 based shiplist, but it will be a pile of work and will not be ready for SG6 by any stretch (see the OCI wishlist - nothing infeasible is there).

[FPF-DieHard]

A fully automated OoB is entirely feasible with the OCI and an OP+4 based shiplist, but it will be a pile of work and will not be ready for SG6 by any stretch (see the OCI wishlist - nothing infeasible is there).

Keep in mind, SGO is NOT OP+.   Lots of crap has been removed or added/changed. 

But . . . .

This can be cool as hell for SGO7   

[Hexx]

Yeah Cj ships aren't an issue (there's not really that many of them)
although I don't have a few moodules, I've got most of the big stuff.
Really the Fed PF and Gorn and Lyran fleet carrier programs form the biggest block.
And of course the fiddly number of KR ship conversions.

FS has KHK as unique? Strange, for some reason I thought they'd made 2.

Are you including CVD's/CVP's btw?

[Bonk]

A fully automated OoB is entirely feasible with the OCI and an OP+4 based shiplist, but it will be a pile of work and will not be ready for SG6 by any stretch (see the OCI wishlist - nothing infeasible is there).

Keep in mind, SGO is NOT OP+.   Lots of crap has been removed or added/changed. 

That is why I specified OP+4 compatible, any shiplist could used with my planned OoB features as long as it is OP+4 compatible. (i.e. uses the extra four columns added in OP+4 - mainly the ProductionAvailablity column.)

[KBFLordKrueg]

A fully automated OoB is entirely feasible with the OCI and an OP+4 based shiplist, but it will be a pile of work and will not be ready for SG6 by any stretch (see the OCI wishlist - nothing infeasible is there).

Keep in mind, SGO is NOT OP+.   Lots of crap has been removed or added/changed. 

That is why I specified OP+4 compatible, any shiplist could used with my planned OoB features as long as it is OP+4 compatible. (i.e. uses the extra four columns added in OP+4 - mainly the ProductionAvailablity column.)

Does this mean that before installing the shpilist for SGO6 we should run the uninstaller for OP+4.0?

Just want to know in case I need to pass that along to my Warriors...

[KBFLordKrueg]

Oh...and BTW, since I've looked all over and can't seem to find it...

Do we have a map preview yet?
Or do we just wait for the test server?

[Dizzy]

You install over opplus 4.0. SG6 has an uninstaller that puts back everything as b4.

[Bonk]

Do we have a map preview yet?

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163368352.msg1122724444.html#msg1122724444


And yes the installer wil require that OP+4 is already installed and will install over it, backing up your current files for restoration on uninstall.

If you run multiple OP installs, then please, for the love of god, do it this way:

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163365074.new.html#new

[KBFLordKrueg]

Do we have a map preview yet?

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163368352.msg1122724444.html#msg1122724444


And yes the installer wil require that OP+4 is already installed and will install over it, backing up your current files for restoration on uninstall.

If you run multiple OP installs, then please, for the love of god, do it this way:

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163365074.new.html#new

TY, Bonk.
Don't know how I missed that before...
Maybe it was that slow load with all those huge graphics...
And I'm on DSL...I can imagine those poor souls on slower connections have to wait forever to see them.

[Brezgonne]

Yeah Cj ships aren't an issue (there's not really that many of them)
although I don't have a few moodules, I've got most of the big stuff.
Really the Fed PF and Gorn and Lyran fleet carrier programs form the biggest block.
And of course the fiddly number of KR ship conversions.

FS has KHK as unique? Strange, for some reason I thought they'd made 2.

Are you including CVD's/CVP's btw?

Yes for both. KH-Ks spcificly replaced DESTROYED DNs and only destroyed DNs. They are semi-unique. Basicly you can build one instead of a DN or to replace a DN but can't build the KH *AND* a DN.

[Brezgonne]

Right, DH... that and CVA's. Tool's got a point here. Why not say anything with 8+ftrs is a carrier cept those two hydran cruisers? Some HDWV's would get left out tho... Kinda conflicted on what's easiest.

Hydran hybrid ships are normally exempt from any sort of carrier or fighter limit. Dunno what you silly people will have them do but thats what they normally are.

[Brezgonne]

the fleeting rules have all kinds of silly oddness to me. I haven't played SFC in ages and I'm looking at the rules and you look unusual to say the least.

The no capital ships rule looks to broad. Normal restriction is 1 SC2 unit (DN) and 1 BCH in a fleet. CX can be used for either. So.... why does one person have to quit just because one of the other people on his side has a BC or DN if he has a BC?

X-ships: X-ships operated either in 2-3 ship groups with the main fleet or seperate in their own fleets composed entierly of X-Ships. Why is there a restriction on them doing so here? Seems very silly to me.

You put a limit on the number of fighters in a fleet? With Hydrans in the game? Silly!

FF squadrens reguarly operated together. Why can't they here?

  carriers are missing their balancing escort ships. Normally escorts only appear in two ways. When escorting a carrier and when escorting a convoy. Conversely the carriers cannot be used without their escort ships. This is part of the balncing factors for the defense weapons and the fighters these ships carry. So why not just do the same thing?

Players cannot take a carrier escort ship of any type unless they are directly escorting a valid unit (true carrier or convoy). Fleeting together is under the same retrictinos and if your happy carrier person logs off, you have to dump the escort and get a normal ship. The carrier player cannot have a combat ship in their remaining fleet slots and must fill them out with the requried escorts for the carrier.

You CANNOT pick a escort ship larger than your carrier. Normally only the fleet and heavy carriers (CA sized and larger) have any sort of cruiser escort and since I saw the fleet limit for the other ship is .5 move cost, this mostly would apply to tinky frigate carriers having like a DE for a escort.

The very few and very specific (and usually very small) escort carriers are a exception to this. They normally have no escort at all. The largest CVE is the Kzinti's one based on a CL. The rest are mostly one FF hulls. These do NOT qualify as carrier escorts. They are mostly intended to protect convoys and the like.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeee! Well thats all I have to drop on Dizzy's foot for now, so I'll see what he does.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Actually, a lot of those rules come from the modified 3 ship fleet PBR rules that were played with fleet deployments.

You can find them in this thread: http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163348697.0.html

[Brezgonne]

Don't care where they are from. It's still my view of them 

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Don't care where they are from. It's still my view of them 

And yet, you want to comment on others not caring about your words of wisdom?

IE:

But what do I know. I just make random comments and watch everyone ignore them 

 

[Brezgonne]

the link you listed goes to another post with a set of links that don't work. Very easy to ignore that 

I ment I don't really care who came up with the rules Dizzy listed here. I still can think what I like about what is posted here and I said what I thought. Why are you being grumpy about me thinking what I think, I think I think?

And yes, most everyone ignores my random comments to whatever

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Well, first, sorry about the dead links... didn't know they had be taken down...

Second, it is about respect.

It is a two way street.

You don't sit there and talk about how people ignore you then, when you are responded to, just blow it off.

It is listed some where in the book DH made called 'How to piss off friends and ignore enemies'.

[Brezgonne]

well when your response basicly said I was full of crap because these rules are the same as some other set of rules, it's easy to blow off 

If the rules Dizzy posted are from somewhere else I'd have had the same reaction to them to. Some things are just silly like that 

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Um... I didn't 'basicly say you were full of crap'

What I did say was this:

Actually, a lot of those rules come from the modified 3 ship fleet PBR rules that were played with fleet deployments.

You can find them in this thread: http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163348697.0.html

Seems I tried to point you in the direction of where the rules came from (even if the links are dead), ie I tried to INFORM you.

Not tell you that you are full of anything....

[Dizzy]

Im not getting into ya'lls tissy. However, keep it civil so we dont lock the thread, lol.

Ok Brez, yeah, some of the rules are silly. Be patient and eventually I or someone else will tell you how/why they came into being... they do have worthy aims and goals.

On the other hand, our rules have gotten so far 'out of the box' that mb a good look at them and reevaluation is in order. But no major changes b4 the server starts. All this far reaching stuff is good discussion for SG7.

For SG6, I'm looking at excorts for carriers, but thats usually what your wingman is for. Tell him to go get one.

[Brezgonne]

*pokes Dizzy with big stick*

[Lepton]

Some comments on the 7 hex ban rule.  It would seem to me that the implications of the rule are to make PvP battles have more impact on the map.  Moving on the premise that the heavy iron is meant to clear the way for hex-flippers, I think we are merely presented with a case of scale here.  The map is far too big.  The impact of this rule would be akin the impact of the regular ban rule on a normal sized map. More hexes to flip, more area to be banned from, I suppose.

My fear is that those wishing for PvP will find themselves penalized for engaging in PvP battles at all in that a single loss in a mission will have a profound effect on where they may operate.  A PvP loss will potentially ban a PvPer or one operating heavy iron from a whole theater of operations since offensive moves are usually planned around taking a specific set of hexes along a specific LOS.  Where in the past one might have been pushed out of a single hex and could still defend the next hex along or do an end-around or merely hold some sway in the area if flying a capital ship, that potential is extremely reduced with the 7 hex ban rule.

I am not in favor of the rule as I feel it will penalize PvPers too heavily for merely seeking a human player to fight against.

[Dizzy]

I agree, Lepton. But Tool and Krueg both think this rule is worth giving a shot considering that the larger map affords more strategic options. More importantly, I think the rule ought not be called the 7 hex ban rule cuz some players arnt sure if its radius, diameter, what it is is the hex you drafted or were drafted in and all 6 hexes adjacent to you at the time of the draft.

PvP cravers will respond to attacks 2 hexes away Im sure. I will. And you can always draft or be drafted in the hex as you are moving out of the ban area. See the rules.

In the grand scheme of things it wont be that bad. Fly with a wing!

[KBFLordKrueg]

I agree, Lepton. But Tool and Krueg both think this rule is worth giving a shot considering that the larger map affords more strategic options. More importantly, I think the rule ought not be called the 7 hex ban rule cuz some players arnt sure if its radius, diameter, what it is is the hex you drafted or were drafted in and all 6 hexes adjacent to you at the time of the draft.

PvP cravers will respond to attacks 2 hexes away Im sure. I will. And you can always draft or be drafted in the hex as you are moving out of the ban area. See the rules.

In the grand scheme of things it wont be that bad. Fly with a wing!

For the record...
I was NOT in favor of the 7 hex rule in open space.
My proposal was around planets and bases only...
But, I was so venomously opposed, I consented in favor of getting the show on the road since the test server was up and we hadn't even finished hammering out a final draft of the rules.

[Dizzy]

But u did say it was worth giving a shot to see if it works...

I am opposed to. Let's just see what happens...

[Dizzy]

Two things to keep in mind... the central Mosh pit area... and the black hole hexes ignore the DR rule. So whoop it up there...

[Lepton]

You don't feel it because you play differently than everyone else. You're a PvP glory hound. You just want fight after fight after fight and you don't care what the map looks like.

Step outside of that mindset for a minute. Do you have any idea how easy it is to get into a hex flipper, start working a hot zone and run around peeps that are trying to chase you down? Ask Chuut, he will tell you. Even I can do it, it fact I did it quite a bit on SG5. The reason its easy is the same reason I outlined above; the DR in its current form does not make it efficient to chase people down.

Now you're telling me the map area is going to be 4x as big. What do you think the ramifications of that are? Is it going to be easier for hex flippers to avoid PvP or harder?

The server needs to BALANCE between PvP and flipping. There are peeps who like both. Don't make the server all about one at the expense of the other.

FLIP FESTS ARE BORING. Make PvP count. ON THE MAP.

I don't understand your point here.  How are hex-flippers going to avoid PvP more if the capital ships are getting bumped out of a large area over the loss of merely one battle?  In fact, if a hex-flipper gets booted out of an area, he will be engaging in very little PvP as he will have to go elsewhere for an hour.  Most offensive operations are concentrated on a few set of hexes and establishing an LOS.  The one hex ban radius will reduce overall PvP.  If you want to increase PvP and stop flippers, I'd suggest doing a draft radius of one, not a ban radius of one.

[KBF-Crim]

I agree, Lepton. But Tool and Krueg both think this rule is worth giving a shot considering that the larger map affords more strategic options. More importantly, I think the rule ought not be called the 7 hex ban rule cuz some players arnt sure if its radius, diameter, what it is is the hex you drafted or were drafted in and all 6 hexes adjacent to you at the time of the draft.

PvP cravers will respond to attacks 2 hexes away Im sure. I will. And you can always draft or be drafted in the hex as you are moving out of the ban area. See the rules.

In the grand scheme of things it wont be that bad. Fly with a wing!

This completly ignores the fact that most fronts arent in a straight line but are in fact wandering ebbs and flows....

A "mega hex ban"  will have the real effect of driving people off an entire front or push....

I'm not saying it's good or bad at this point...just pointing out reality....you ont have to go two hexes...you might have to switch fronts to find something effective to do...

If I read this right...and you are defending a planet running missions one hex north of the planet and disengage or are destroyed you cant even run missions on the planet...

In effect..you can push people two deep hexes into their own space, because they lost a mission in your space...

Thats a pretty big distance for a routed fleet or ship...

I dont understand how this helps defenders at all...