Dynaverse.net
Taldrenites => Dynaverse II Experiences => Topic started by: Capt Jeff on August 28, 2006, 11:37:12 am
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I was thinking of going with #4.
If you decide to stay and fight, and you lose, the winner gets a PvP point, BUT you can get a new ship and return immediately. If you run, you are forbidden in that hex and a radius for 30 minutes (time period not set in stone).
Comments, ideas welcome.
ps. Results of this poll are for information only, and the winner may not be the rule implemented on the campaign ;)
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Please note that a lot of the map will be restricted to CL class of ships.
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I liked option #4 as well. It gives an advantage to anyone who is willing to stay in the battle to fight it out. I nice compromise.
Would the 1 point VC be for all kills? If it was, this might discourage pilots from just kamikazing their ships at opponents so that they can stay in hex. Also, my thought here is that if a hex is being fiercely fought over, all pilots should grab a better PvP ship before they enter the area. You get caught trying to run missions under your opponent with a droner or small-drafting frigate you should pay the consequences. Same 1 point VC for everyone, none of that hull size comparison crap! Or any other complicated PvP VC system.
Fan of the KISS rules system.
Will all missions be able to draft 3 pilots for each side? Some missions in SGO6 would only draft 2. They should be yanked out and tossed , or fixed. I guess you could go with just missions that draft 2 per side only, but mixing the two really sucks. If you have a chance of getting either when you draft, you can get really screwed. The tactical planners would like this to be clear up front.
Agave
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Yes, all missions would be 3vs3.
And yes, it may cut down a bit on the FF drafting larger, cause if they can get to you, and kill you first, before they get killed, they get a point too, and can still come back to the hex ;)
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I'm not crazy about awarding VP's for non-metal and non-specialty ships. It's kind of n00b unfriendly.
Keep the same disengagement rule as SG6 but make line cruisers worth nothing. You will see more people sticking it out for PvP.
Specialty ships (fast cruisers, true carriers, droners) should always be worth a point.
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I'm not crazy about awarding VP's for non-metal and non-specialty ships. It's kind of n00b unfriendly.
Keep the same disengagement rule as SG6 but make line cruisers worth nothing. You will see more people sticking it out for PvP.
Specialty ships (fast cruisers, true carriers, droners) should always be worth a point.
I agree with t00l. Some incentive needs to be established for flying more vanilla ships.
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I think i would vote for option 4, without the "Radius" concept. Either that or the old "standard" disengagement rules we used to have.
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What about the idea someone had of only counting PVP kills if they're made by a line (including command) ships?
ie CF kills a CA, no points, CA kills a CF, worth a point.
There wouldn't be any real reason for any of the PVP "aces" to get a specialty ship.
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Do not like Option# 4 cuz it would make all FF kamikaze runs inevitable in the event the VPs are restricted to speciality and BCH-class+ ships . Option# 4 as-is with 1 VP awarded for killls of any class ship would be too new player unfriendly to contemplate.
So, I have to go with Option 3.
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Option# 4 as-is with 1 VP awarded for kills of any class ship would be too new player unfriendly to contemplate.
I don't think that at all. I think the new players can handle it. It's usually not the loss of the ship that discourages them, but the harsh criticism that is aimed at them afterward. Most new players become so gun-shy only after being bitched out about losing this or that ship. We need to let them know that we support them getting into the mix of things and actively wing with them when asked. Any good PvP pilot in our community has been mentored by someone. So, when a new player loses a ship, even needlessly, we should encourage them to try again and learn from their past mistakes. Everyone else should just get the f*ck over themselves and let them have as much chance to enjoy the game as we once had.
As for PvP kill pts only being awarded for line ships killing speciality ships, that bullsh*t too. Who are we to tell someone that one type ship should be preferred over another? Screw that! That my friends is why we have seen our community shrink. It's because we have put so many restrictions on things that we have squeezed the fun out of the game for many.
If you all want to put so much emphasis on everyone flying line ships only, make a server with just those type ships. You'll find out quickly how much the community either likes it or not by how many show up.
Rant over.
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What about the idea someone had of only counting PVP kills if they're made by a line (including command) ships?
ie CF kills a CA, no points, CA kills a CF, worth a point.
There wouldn't be any real reason for any of the PVP "aces" to get a specialty ship.
It's good idea but there are exceptions that should be considered. Would the "Ubber-line" ships qualify like the R-NHK?
Maybe go with a BPV cut off point that regardless of class, it's not longer considered a "line" ship.
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It's because we have put so many restrictions on things that we have squeezed the fun out of the game for many.
+1
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Option# 4 as-is with 1 VP awarded for kills of any class ship would be too new player unfriendly to contemplate.
As for PvP kill pts only being awarded for line ships killing speciality ships, that bullsh*t too. Who are we to tell someone that one type ship should be preferred over another? Screw that! That my friends is why we have seen our community shrink. It's because we have put so many restrictions on things that we have squeezed the fun out of the game for many.
Rant over.
And such an amusing rant it was to..
Seriously though- how does my proposal ruin the game for someone?
If they want to fly a 3 Battleship Fleet with X technology and a button that instantly wins them the mission they're more than welcome to.
Doesn't restrict them from killing someone, or from hex flipping.They simply don't get any points for killing someone.
To me it seems a perfectly reasonable idea.
And the argument that "so many players have left because of restrictions" is .. erroneous as well.
Yes we've lost players because of restrictions, we've lost just as many because of older servers turning into 3XBB fests
We've lost as many as both put together because of the arguing over it. And we've lost more than all 3 because of the age of the game.
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Option# 4 as-is with 1 VP awarded for kills of any class ship would be too new player unfriendly to contemplate.
As for PvP kill pts only being awarded for line ships killing speciality ships, that bullsh*t too. Who are we to tell someone that one type ship should be preferred over another? Screw that! That my friends is why we have seen our community shrink. It's because we have put so many restrictions on things that we have squeezed the fun out of the game for many.
Rant over.
And such an amusing rant it was to..
Seriously though- how does my proposal ruin the game for someone?
If they want to fly a 3 Battleship Fleet with X technology and a button that instantly wins them the mission they're more than welcome to.
Doesn't restrict them from killing someone, or from hex flipping.They simply don't get any points for killing someone.
To me it seems a perfectly reasonable idea.
And the argument that "so many players have left because of restrictions" is .. erroneous as well.
Yes we've lost players because of restrictions, we've lost just as many because of older servers turning into 3XBB fests
We've lost as many as both put together because of the arguing over it. And we've lost more than all 3 because of the age of the game.
Frankly, the age of the game is one of the things that recommends it to me.
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What about the idea someone had of only counting PVP kills if they're made by a line (including command) ships?
ie CF kills a CA, no points, CA kills a CF, worth a point.
There wouldn't be any real reason for any of the PVP "aces" to get a specialty ship.
It's good idea but there are exceptions that should be considered. Would the "Ubber-line" ships qualify like the R-NHK?
Maybe go with a BPV cut off point that regardless of class, it's not longer considered a "line" ship.
While (of course) it would depend on the ship, I don't see it being a huge issue
** OF course noting that I do not fly plasma** I don't see the NHK as being hugely overpowered, one of the best yes, but certainly not unkillable. All joking about my PVP skills (or lack thereof) aside- I've killed player flown NHKs using Fed CLCs, so I'd guess that it is doable by an "average" PVP pilot.
Personally I'd probably cut it off at anything more than 8 fighters (so basic strike cv's would be OK) or more than 4 drone racks , but obviously it is something that the admin would have to decide on
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Looking forward to hunting you down in an NHK on SSIII Hexx, Rememeber the alliances? ;D
Those who's fun is getting trampled by by not being allowed to fly a BBV with 2 escorts should speak up and let us Know.
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Looking forward to hunting you down in an NHK on SSIII Hexx, Rememeber the alliances? ;D
Actually I don't -what are they?
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Looking forward to hunting you down in an NHK on SSIII Hexx, Rememeber the alliances? ;D
Actually I don't -what are they?
Jeff will have to confirm SSII was:
Alliance: Fed, ISC <Snicker>, Romulan, Hydran
Coalition: Klingon, Mirak, Gorn, Lyran.
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Looking forward to hunting you down in an NHK on SSIII Hexx, Rememeber the alliances? ;D
Actually I don't -what are they?
Jeff will have to confirm SSII was:
Alliance: Fed, ISC <Snicker>, Romulan, Hydran
Coalition: Klingon, Mirak, Gorn, Lyran.
Such a shame I'll be flying Fed and won't be able to school you on how to fly their ships.. :P
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Probably so Bear and I dont kill you 49 times again :rofl:
You died almost as much as Fluf. <snicker>
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Option# 4 as-is with 1 VP awarded for kills of any class ship would be too new player unfriendly to contemplate.
As for PvP kill pts only being awarded for line ships killing speciality ships, that bullsh*t too. Who are we to tell someone that one type ship should be preferred over another? Screw that! That my friends is why we have seen our community shrink. It's because we have put so many restrictions on things that we have squeezed the fun out of the game for many.
Rant over.
And such an amusing rant it was to..
Seriously though- how does my proposal ruin the game for someone?
If they want to fly a 3 Battleship Fleet with X technology and a button that instantly wins them the mission they're more than welcome to.
Doesn't restrict them from killing someone, or from hex flipping.They simply don't get any points for killing someone.
To me it seems a perfectly reasonable idea.
And the argument that "so many players have left because of restrictions" is .. erroneous as well.
Yes we've lost players because of restrictions, we've lost just as many because of older servers turning into 3XBB fests
We've lost as many as both put together because of the arguing over it. And we've lost more than all 3 because of the age of the game.
I will not disagree with you that there have been other factors that have changed our community over time. My point was to say that some of the restrictions added to the rules set are the most addressable ones.
As for yours and DH examples of 3xBB fest, as expected, you guys point out the most extreme examples of *variety*. I fully admit that there have been some basic rules added to the rules set that supported fair play. Yes, the 3 ship fleets had their day, but the overall community has stated that they would not like to see that anymore. I don't deal in absolutes, but shades of grey.
I am simply stating that you guys have taken some of these ideas too far. If you would ease up a little on your fine tuning the rules down to the nth degree you might just be surprised by how receptive the community might be. Before long, we'll need to engage J'inn's services just to get the rules set to paper.
Why would you want a PvP VC points system where only line ships are separated out either by not awarding pts if they are killed or only awarding pts if they are the killing ship? Is a pilot so much better to you if they are proficient in killing other in line ships than a speciality ship? Do you really want to take it so far as to tell WarSears, an acknowledged ace in klingon drone ships, that his kills are not as worthy as someone who kills you in a stock D7C?
I'm sorry, but I see such rules as elitist bullcrap. All setup to benefit those pilots who excel in line ships. If the community as a whole agrees with this then I'll be happy to sit in the minority. Agree to disagree so to speak. But, if there are other pilots out there that feel the way I do, shouldn't we consider them as well?
Agave
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Why would you want a PvP VC points system where only line ships are separated out either by not awarding pts if they are killed or only awarding pts if they are the killing ship? Is a pilot so much better to you if they are proficient in killing other in line ships than a speciality ship? Do you really want to take it so far as to tell WarSears, an acknowledged ace in klingon drone ships, that his kills are not as worthy as someone who kills you in a stock D7C?
I think the idea about giving VPs for bagging specialty ships and BCH-class+ ships is that they cost way more to build than the line ships. So, if an empire loses a more expensive ship then the achievement could be reflected in the VC totals. BCH-class+ ships are going to be rare commodities in any fleet, so losing them would not only be a expensive economic loss to any empire, but constitute a morale loss as well.
There is some debate on what exactly classifies a specialty ship. For example, the Klingon and Mirak droners are more probably line ships than specialty ships. While the escort, mauler, PFT, CF and CV ships of any fleet are more probably specialty ships than line ships.
All the above principles are based on an analytical analysis of the traditional SFB Order of Battle for all the races in the game.
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I think Hexx's idea would work but is slightly more complicated than it needs to be. Simply making specialty ships worth a point reflects their higher economic cost and would encourage some pilots to fly in the free (and more common) line warships.
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Specials = 2 pts
lines = 1 pt
rule #4
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Another analogy regarding the economic cost of losing a speciality and BCH-class+ ship for an empire would be:
Have an at-fault car accident in a run-of-the-mill compact car. Then have an accident in a $40,000 plus sports car or even a $100K plus Ferrari.
Which car will give you higher insurance premiums after the accident? Which car cost more to insure in the first place? ;D
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Rule 3 all the way !!
If you stay and die you should have to wait (while your rescued and recover in the bacta tank), as well as waiting for your replacment ship to be outfitted, crew trained, and mission prepped.
...unless your Klingon and just kill a Captain and take over his ship.
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I think Hexx's idea would work but is slightly more complicated than it needs to be. Simply making specialty ships worth a point reflects their higher economic cost and would encourage some pilots to fly in the free (and more common) line warships.
Again though doesn't solve (imho) the main issue- you're still going to have players like DH,Duck, Dizzy etc jumping into the specials
Which means if someone wants to kill them, they're going to need speciasl to do it, meaning the same thing as we have now.
By making the "elite" PVPers use the line ships * if they want to score PVP points* you remove the necessity for everyone to.
They can still be flown to do anything else and still have their use, they just won't be the standard for PVP as they are now.
At the moment there's no real need for most of the races to have line ships, and some of them can even get away without using the command variants.
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What it does do is prevent a n00b who loses a line ship from feeling like he hurt his team.
Maybe we need to go back to assigning specialty ships, or use a system like we do with iron. No more than one fast cruiser, droner, or carrier on the board per side (one of each).
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The only reason a n00b should feel like he's hurting his team is if that's what you're telling him.
It gives players a choice
With this system they're forced (although that is likely the wrong word, many of them I'm sure like the lineboats)
to fly the line stuff if they want to score points. But you would still be able to force someone off a hex if you beat them in a CF.
What it does is let the newer players either fly the line ships- and leanr how to manage power etc- or jump in teh fast cruisers/ droners/whatver and zip around the map.
A points system only reinforces the difference between player levels as the newer or less skilled PVP players are forced
to wait until the skilled PVP players get their hands on the killer ships. All your proposal does is enforce the idea of assigning the best ships to the best PVP pilots.
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What it does do is prevent a n00b who loses a line ship from feeling like he hurt his team.
Maybe we need to go back to assigning specialty ships, or use a system like we do with iron. No more than one fast cruiser, droner, or carrier on the board per side (one of each).
No :P
That was a collasal pain in the ass and now we'll still have way more ships than players anyway.
The answer lies in Fleeting rule, Maybe count ALL specials as Metal in regards to fleeting? Yeah, that is retarded, but it will work. Something like that.
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The only reason a n00b should feel like he's hurting his team is if that's what you're telling him.
It gives players a choice
With this system they're forced (although that is likely the wrong word, many of them I'm sure like the lineboats)
to fly the line stuff if they want to score points. But you would still be able to force someone off a hex if you beat them in a CF.
What it does is let the newer players either fly the line ships- and leanr how to manage power etc- or jump in teh fast cruisers/ droners/whatver and zip around the map.
A points system only reinforces the difference between player levels as the newer or less skilled PVP players are forced
to wait until the skilled PVP players get their hands on the killer ships. All your proposal does is enforce the idea of assigning the best ships to the best PVP pilots.
It pains me greatly to agree with Hexx
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"One man's cheese, is another man's only hope for survival" KBF-Crim
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I'm not crazy about awarding VP's for non-metal and non-specialty ships. It's kind of n00b unfriendly.
Keep the same disengagement rule as SG6 but make line cruisers worth nothing. You will see more people sticking it out for PvP.
Specialty ships (fast cruisers, true carriers, droners) should always be worth a point.
Lol, the radius rule is noob unfriendly, yet I see no concern on that score.
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I'm not crazy about awarding VP's for non-metal and non-specialty ships. It's kind of n00b unfriendly.
Keep the same disengagement rule as SG6 but make line cruisers worth nothing. You will see more people sticking it out for PvP.
Specialty ships (fast cruisers, true carriers, droners) should always be worth a point.
Lol, the radius rule is noob unfriendly, yet I see no concern on that score.
Mega hex bans suck.....how's that for concern.... ;D
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I'm not crazy about awarding VP's for non-metal and non-specialty ships. It's kind of n00b unfriendly.
Keep the same disengagement rule as SG6 but make line cruisers worth nothing. You will see more people sticking it out for PvP.
Specialty ships (fast cruisers, true carriers, droners) should always be worth a point.
Lol, the radius rule is noob unfriendly, yet I see no concern on that score.
I don't see how that affect n00bs more that others. Everyone gets jumped and Chased out.
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"One man's cheese, is another man's only hope for survival" KBF-Crim
Only if you're opponent has Cheese, otherwise all you need is practice :)
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The only reason a n00b should feel like he's hurting his team is if that's what you're telling him.
It gives players a choice
With this system they're forced (although that is likely the wrong word, many of them I'm sure like the lineboats)
to fly the line stuff if they want to score points. But you would still be able to force someone off a hex if you beat them in a CF.
What it does is let the newer players either fly the line ships- and leanr how to manage power etc- or jump in teh fast cruisers/ droners/whatver and zip around the map.
A points system only reinforces the difference between player levels as the newer or less skilled PVP players are forced
to wait until the skilled PVP players get their hands on the killer ships. All your proposal does is enforce the idea of assigning the best ships to the best PVP pilots.
Hexx, you are a frigging genius. I was going to suggest such a thing but thought I would be summarily mocked and shouted down. Bravo. I think we are getting much closer to levelling the playing field with such a suggestion.
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Another Idea, what if you personally have to have killed somebody on the server in order for your death being worth any points?
The more I think about it, the more I like Hexx's idea.
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Another Idea, what if you personally have to have killed somebody on the server in order for your death being worth any points?
I don't know if I can afford a ticket to NJ right now..
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I'm not crazy about awarding VP's for non-metal and non-specialty ships. It's kind of n00b unfriendly.
Keep the same disengagement rule as SG6 but make line cruisers worth nothing. You will see more people sticking it out for PvP.
Specialty ships (fast cruisers, true carriers, droners) should always be worth a point.
Lol, the radius rule is noob unfriendly, yet I see no concern on that score.
I don't see how that affect n00bs more that others. Everyone gets jumped and Chased out.
The noob is more likely to be in a line ship and more likely to be less skilled in general therefore he or she can only but be effected more in general.
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I'm not crazy about awarding VP's for non-metal and non-specialty ships. It's kind of n00b unfriendly.
Keep the same disengagement rule as SG6 but make line cruisers worth nothing. You will see more people sticking it out for PvP.
Specialty ships (fast cruisers, true carriers, droners) should always be worth a point.
Lol, the radius rule is noob unfriendly, yet I see no concern on that score.
I don't see how that affect n00bs more that others. Everyone gets jumped and Chased out.
The noob is more likely to be in a line ship and more likely to be less skilled in general therefore he or she can only but be effected more in general.
This is why I'm liking Hexx's Idea more and more
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Let's cut through the BS. You guys like to blow each other up, right? Just do it in line ships. PvP points to be award through a bounty system that people can opt in and out of and all battles must be fought in line ships. All other PvP battles have no point values assigned to them.
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Let's cut through the BS. You guys like to blow each other up, right? Just do it in line ships. PvP points to be award through a bounty system that people can opt in and out of and all battles must be fought in line ships. All other PvP battles have no point values assigned to them.
Nothing would Please me more ;D
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Thanks Lepton, but honestly I think it was someone elses idea from a while ago that was kinda kicking around in my head.
(If I may theorize for a bit)
Basically the problem isn't one of getting players to fly the line ships. It's giving a reason to the "elite" PVPers to fly a line ship.
Points on specialty ships doesn't work, -as mentioned it simply sees them invested for the best return- ie giving them to the line pilots.
Counting VP's only on specialty ships doesn't work- it simply has the eiltes fly specialty ships to kill other players in specialty ships.
In both caes you have elite players in specialty ships who can really only be hunted down by other elite players in specialty ships.
So if you coax the elite players into line ships (and as I said- having talked to many of them it seems most would like to fly the line ships) by only awarding points for kills scored by line ships you accomplish 2 things.
-Newer players can fly line ships knowing that their ship will not be outclassed by the enemy's best pilots.
These are the ships in which they will (hopefull) learn power management etc that will in turn let them become better pilots
-Or they can fly the specialties, they may not learn as much, but they will generally have a better ship than their opponent and can get some practice in PVP in. If they manage to kill an elite pilot, well tehy don't get any points, but they'll still have driven them off a hex for a bit, and bragging rights are better than kill points anyway.
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Let's cut through the BS. You guys like to blow each other up, right? Just do it in line ships. PvP points to be award through a bounty system that people can opt in and out of and all battles must be fought in line ships. All other PvP battles have no point values assigned to them.
As long as disengagement was kept would work..sorta
You'd encounter problems when you have (for example) 2 PVP enabled players fighting a PVP enabled players and two that aren't PVPers.
Do they just have to kill the one PVP player for the point? CAn the two non pvp players shield him? Cans the two non PVPer make suicide runs knowing if they die they're worth nothing, but if they hurt an enemy PVPers ship their ally can claim the points?
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I like this idea but how I mentioned Earlier, there has to be a reasonable cutoff as to what is a "line" ship regardless of "class." AN NHK at 192 BPV or I-CAZ at 194 are examples of ships that are a bit much.
PS. Both will be availble to me on SS3 so I ain't race whoring
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As long as disengagement was kept would work..sorta
You'd encounter problems when you have (for example) 2 PVP enabled players fighting a PVP enabled players and two that aren't PVPers.
Do they just have to kill the one PVP player for the point? CAn the two non pvp players shield him? Cans the two non PVPer make suicide runs knowing if they die they're worth nothing, but if they hurt an enemy PVPers ship their ally can claim the points?
These are very good points I had not considered, and I have no good answer to them. But, let me shoot back something at you. If line ships are the only ones that count for PvP points, won't the less experienced players still be at a disadvantage as they are more likely to be in a line ship for longer and not be able to afford the exotic ships? That is why I proposed a system that one could opt out of. Disengagement rules would still apply to every PvP battle but points only awarded to those that opt to put their butts on the line.
People could still field capital ships but the penalty of the loss would merely be that one of that type could not be fielded for a period of time, but no PvP points pertain. Thereby you can have the use of cap ships to effect holding territory by being imposing and driving people out but there is no inducement to the kind of PvP jousting we have seen previously in those ships as they are assets to be protected to effect the map, not effect PvP point totals.
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People could still field capital ships but the penalty of the loss would merely be that one of that type could not be fielded for a period of time, but no PvP points pertain. Thereby you can have the use of cap ships to effect holding territory by being imposing and driving people out but there is no inducement to the kind of PvP jousting we have seen previously in those ships as they are assets to be protected to effect the map, not effect PvP point totals.
I like this.
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I like this idea but how I mentioned Earlier, there has to be a reasonable cutoff as to what is a "line" ship regardless of "class." AN NHK at 192 BPV or I-CAZ at 194 are examples of ships that are a bit much.
PS. Both will be availble to me on SS3 so I ain't race whoring
Of course there would be some debate about what to use, and some ships will almost certainly be considered "misclassed" by some players
To me the Gorn CCH and Rom NHK seem to match up decently enough, but again I don't fly plasma, don't use plasma , so I'm not really qualified to say one way or the other. IF everyone agrees a FHK matches up better against a Gorn CCH, no problem, otehrwise it would be up to the admin. But yes, Rom and ISC would be special cases, and I believe (maybe) some of the Hydran ships would be reclassed as well.
(Why more people don't fly Hellbore ships I'll never know)
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I think if we are really trying to level the playing field and not merely posit some abstract notion of what a line ship is then we also really need to be talking about a BPV limit as well. I would call a line ship as any standard class ship up to and including the BPV of a standard heavy cruiser. A command cruiser is just that, a command cruiser. I would not consider it a line ship, but you guys are more equipped to hash out the details than I.
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These are very good points I had not considered, and I have no good answer to them. But, let me shoot back something at you. If line ships are the only ones that count for PvP points, won't the less experienced players still be at a disadvantage as they are more likely to be in a line ship for longer and not be able to afford the exotic ships? That is why I proposed a system that one could opt out of. Disengagement rules would still apply to every PvP battle but points only awarded to those that opt to put their butts on the line.
People could still field capital ships but the penalty of the loss would merely be that one of that type could not be fielded for a period of time, but no PvP points pertain. Thereby you can have the use of cap ships to effect holding territory by being imposing and driving people out but there is no inducement to the kind of PvP jousting we have seen previously in those ships as they are assets to be protected to effect the map, not effect PvP point totals.
For your first point- not really (imo-completely depends on server design) if a FF costs 400 and a DF cost 600 its no biggie.
For most ships up to CA level the difference in price between specialty and lins is negligable, I think it was about 600 prestige difference between
a FHk and FFHk on SG06 (could be off), but even up to 1000 -that's only 3 missions.
My idea was actually to only impose the line ship stuff up to the heavy metal. I hadn't finished fleshing out the idea of how to make the cap ships work. I like your idea, but honestly there's something nagging me at the back of my brain that I see an exploit. (Or maybe it's a tumour, tell you tomorrow) Anyway the original idea was to have the cap ships count as line ships for PVP- with teh exception that 1v1's wouldn't count if they were against a smaller ship, and that tehy would have to be escorted by line ships anyway.
Still you may be on to something about removing them from the PVP role alltogether..hmmm.
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I really like Hexx's idea, but a couple of questions remain for me.
#1 If you include Command variants you still have some of the best PvP ships in the mix. Take the Novahawk, the Fed CB, the L-CWLP for example. Perhaps command variants should be eliminated from the "line-ship" category. Of course will "aces" be willing to fly "line ships" if they aren't among the best for PvP or will they go with the better ships trying to drive folkes from hexes instead of going for PvP points? I'm guessing not many would go for the line ships if it put them at a significant PvP disavantage with the disengagement rule in effect.
If you really want to encourage the line ships what needs to be done is to make only "line ships" force a disengagement as well, or perhaps make specialty ships only force 1/2 as long a penalty. With the current game philosophy of forming "hunter/killer" teams to win control of hexes I really don't see the "aces" as willing to give up their specialty for their whole team for fear of being chased out of the area just on the chance they might earn a PvP point or two.
I see alot of negetives to this approach of only "line ships" forcing disengagement as well.
#2 some race's "line-ships" are more capable of getting a kill than other race's line ships. Crunch power, fighters, drones, power curb, etc. all come into play. Defining what exactly is a "line ship" is a very tricky business, for example are "heavy War destroyers "line ships"? By late era most ships just simply don't likely qualify for one reason or another. Not sure there is anyway around this as it also applies to specialty ships and is likely just a racial feature.
What would I do?
Likely go with Hexes rule for most of the map with the addition of only "line ships" being able to force disengagement. However,once you get to withinin 1 hex of a base or planet have all ships able to force disengagement and all ships kills count. I don't think the vets will short-change their asenals so close to a VC area in the name of PvP points anyhow, and the vets need some good fights with high stakes. This will keep the really hot zones dangerous but allow for more new player friendly areas for large parts of the map.
I really like some aspects of Hexx's system. Under it there is no reason to not offer mercy to a new player if you are flying a specialty ship, he/she isn't worth any points. It might provide opportunities for them to learn better power management as hex pointed out while flying the "line ships", and it might encourage vets to fly line ships so that a newer player in a specialty ship can offer a more challanging fight to them and also gain more PvP experience to the newer player.
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I think if we are really trying to level the playing field and not merely posit some abstract notion of what a line ship is then we also really need to be talking about a BPV limit as well. I would call a line ship as any standard class ship up to and including the BPV of a standard heavy cruiser. A command cruiser is just that, a command cruiser. I would not consider it a line ship, but you guys are more equipped to hash out the details than I.
I'm really going to simply have to wait for posts and just update ever 2 hours ;D
I include CC's as line ships for the basic reason that (imo) the CWL's/CC's/CCH's match up far better across the races than teh CW's/CA's do.
I'd argue the D7C/Fed CC+/Lyran CC+ etc are far more evenly balanced against each other than their respective line ships are.
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I really like Hexx's idea, but a couple of questions remain for me.
#1 If you include Command variants you still have some of the best PvP ships in the mix. Take the Novahawk, the Fed CB, the L-CWLP for example. Perhaps command variants should be eliminated from the "line-ship" category. Of course will "aces" be willing to fly "line ships" if they aren't among the best for PvP or will they go with the better ships trying to drive folkes from hexes instead of going for PvP points? I'm guessing not many would go for the line ships if it put them at a significant PvP disavantage with the disengagement rule in effect.
If you really want to encourage the line ships what needs to be done is to make only "line ships" force a disengagement as well, or perhaps make specialty ships only force 1/2 as long a penalty. With the current game philosophy of forming "hunter/killer" teams to win control of hexes I really don't see the "aces" as willing to give up their specialty for their whole team for fear of being chased out of the area just on the chance they might earn a PvP point or two.
I see alot of negetives to this approach of only "line ships" forcing disengagement as well.
#2 some race's "line-ships" are more capable of getting a kill than other race's line ships. Crunch power, fighters, drones, power curb, etc. all come into play. Defining what exactly is a "line ship" is a very tricky business, for example are "heavy War destroyers "line ships"? By late era most ships just simply don't likely qualify for one reason or another. Not sure there is anyway around this as it also applies to specialty ships and is likely just a racial feature.
What would I do?
Likely go with Hexes rule for most of the map with the addition of only "line ships" being able to force disengagement. However,once you get to withinin 1 hex of a base or planet have all ships able to force disengagement and all ships kills count. I don't think the vets will short-change their asenals so close to a VC area in the name of PvP points anyhow, and the vets need some good fights with high stakes. This will keep the really hot zones dangerous but allow for more new player friendly areas for large parts of the map.
I really like some aspects of Hexx's system. Under it there is no reason to not offer mercy to a new player if you are flying a specialty ship, he/she isn't worth any points. It might provide opportunities for them to learn better power management as hex pointed out while flying the "line ships", and it might encourage vets to fly line ships so that a newer player in a specialty ship can offer a more challanging fight to them and also gain more PvP experience to the newer player.
First- you can't (imho) "balance" line and/or specialty ships after 2280ish, Personally I'd love to see the HDW's go away forever, but some people seem to like them.
Second- Yes, there will be a (somewhat) predictable pattern of the PVP pilots choosing whatver the best command variant is for their race.
Again though- it would be the same if you eliminated the command variants, you'd simply have PVP pilots choosing the best CA's of their race, and
(again imo) the CC's match up far better across the races than the CA's. Yes some (fed CB, R-NHK if it's included) will be better than others
There isn't any way around that short of giving everyone the same ship.
And I'd disagree with you strongly on teh PVP effect- of course it all depends on VP conditions and how PVP points are worked into them
Make it worth peoples time to fly PVP and score points and they'll do it.
Have a map with 3 VC hexes- no it won't work, driving people off will be much more valuable. Have a map with 30 VC hexes and it will work just fine.
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"One man's cheese, is another man's only hope for survival" KBF-Crim
Only if you're opponent has Cheese, otherwise all you need is practice :)
Dude...I'll admit it....after almost 7 years of playing this game...I'm a mediocure player at best...I can barely beat the AI in a line ship...
Straight up....if practice where the answer...I'd be a frickin ace by now.......oh sure I like to play....hell...I love this game......but I stopped deluding myself a year or two ago....
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Hexx,
Do you think that line ships below the CC class are not balanced in general or not balanced because there is a change over time when a better ship in a particular class is available for a particular race? If the latter, then I think that is just the breaks. Sometimes a race will simply have the best ship out there in a particular class for a particular stardate. Not much to be done about it expect make some very artifical alterations to YFAs.
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First- you can't (imho) "balance" line and/or specialty ships after 2280ish, Personally I'd love to see the HDW's go away forever, but some people seem to like them.
Keep your grubby little paws off my HDWs ;D
Second- Yes, there will be a (somewhat) predictable pattern of the PVP pilots choosing whatver the best command variant is for their race.
Again though- it would be the same if you eliminated the command variants, you'd simply have PVP pilots choosing the best CA's of their race, and
(again imo) the CC's match up far better across the races than the CA's. Yes some (fed CB, R-NHK if it's included) will be better than others
There isn't any way around that short of giving everyone the same ship.
But some races likely won't be flying their line ships as much as others if the Command Varients are included, this will give a larger advantage to those races with very good command variants. If I was a Rom I'd fly a Novahawk no problem, but if I were a Gorn would I fly a CC+? The novahawk can perform so much better vs specialty ships and it really isn't a disadvantage at all to fly, I'd be flying it without the bonus for "line ships" applying to it. If pilots would be flying those ships anyhow, what is the point of a bonus. Same for a CWLP. I'd fly that one bonus or not. Allowing vets in Novahawks and CWLP's to collect PvP points wont do too much to protect new players in PvP.
And I'd disagree with you strongly on teh PVP effect- of course it all depends on VP conditions and how PVP points are worked into them
Make it worth peoples time to fly PVP and score points and they'll do it.
Have a map with 3 VC hexes- no it won't work, driving people off will be much more valuable. Have a map with 30 VC hexes and it will work just fine.
I do agree with that it largely depends on the number of VCs, their importance in regards to each other, the importance of PvP VCs in general and the map size.
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I also like Hexx's Ideas on this.
One note, I have always offered mercy to newer players when their ship is totaled, but still alive. Some take it, others tell me to finish it. I give them the choice when I can. Experienced pilots, or nutters, no need for mercy.
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"One man's cheese, is another man's only hope for survival" KBF-Crim
Only if you're opponent has Cheese, otherwise all you need is practice :)
Dude...I'll admit it....after almost 7 years of playing this game...I'm a mediocure player at best...I can barely beat the AI in a line ship...
Straight up....if practice where the answer...I'd be a frickin ace by now.......oh sure I like to play....hell...I love this game......but I stopped deluding myself a year or two ago....
The same here Crim, I am an ace, but I dont go looking for trouble, it finds me. ;D
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but I dont go looking for trouble, it finds me. ;D
Hey you get within t-bomb range and you travel at your own peril :flame:
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Crim- I know how you feel ;D (Although I must admit, if you added up my lifetime prestige I've still got far less than some playeres get on one server I've been around awhile, I just don't play all that much..)
Lepton- I think the CC (and by extension CWL,DWL/whatver) are better balanced across the races in general from 63-75
True line Klink ships (for example) -the D7 is going to get slaughtered vs a Hydran hellbore ship with even a semi competent pilot at the helm unless the D7 captain is great. As mentioned I see a better match with a D7C vs a Fed CC+ than a D7 vc Fed CA
The early coalition line ships seemed to depend on numbers ratehr than quality- fine for a wargame but something we can't really approximate here. Yes some will (as mentioned) be better than others but it's closer.
But some races likely won't be flying their line ships as much as others if the Command Varients are included, this will give a larger advantage to those races with very good command variants. If I was a Rom I'd fly a Novahawk no problem, but if I were a Gorn would I fly a CC+? The novahawk can perform so much better vs specialty ships and it really isn't a disadvantage at all to fly, I'd be flying it without the bonus for "line ships" applying to it. If pilots would be flying those ships anyhow, what is the point of a bonus. Same for a CWLP. I'd fly that one bonus or not.
No, I expect most pilots will move into the CC's/CWL's of their respective races, not the ideal perhaps, but (imo) better than them in teh CF's or droners they would have been in before. And while (I personally) agree with you on such ships as the CWLP - some players don't. (FSD seem to prefer the CF for some reason)
Some ships will have to be looked at as I mentioned- the NHK should be stacked up agains the Gorn CCH , is it a match for it? IS the FHK a better match? The admin would have to decide.
Keeping in mind however that if this was also combined with the idea of keeping the bloody fleets fighting against the opponents they are supposed to fight it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Really it comes down to what teh admin wants- for example I would honestly have no problem including the strike carriers
(D7V,NVS etc) in the "line" ship category. With proper fighter CnC they're not that big a deal until at least 77 and arguably 80.
But I'm more than willing to admit that other players simply see "carrier" and think "cheese". I don't agree with it, but can see how they might feel that way.
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No, I expect most pilots will move into the CC's/CWL's of their respective races, not the ideal perhaps, but (imo) better than them in teh CF's or droners they would have been in before. And while (I personally) agree with you on such ships as the CWLP - some players don't. (FSD seem to prefer the CF for some reason)
Some ships will have to be looked at as I mentioned- the NHK should be stacked up agains the Gorn CCH , is it a match for it? IS the FHK a better match? The admin would have to decide.
For me the issue isn't so much the balance of the line ships vs each other as the balance of a vet in the "line ships" vs a newer or less PvP savy player. The litmus test is simply would flying that ship as opposed to a specialty ship make it significantly more difficult for a vet to kill a newer player? With the CWLP, Novahawk, CB, etc included in the "line ship" category the anser is not really. If the command variants are excluded the answer would be yes in most cases.
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:popcorn:
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For me the issue isn't so much the balance of the line ships vs each other as the balance of a vet in the "line ships" vs a newer or less PvP savy player. The litmus test is simply would flying that ship as opposed to a specialty ship make it significantly more difficult for a vet to kill a newer player? With the CWLP, Novahawk, CB, etc included in the "line ship" category the anser is not really. If the command variants are excluded the answer would be yes in most cases.
You're never going to balance the vet with a new player
A noob in a F-CF will likely die against a D7C with a vet
A noob in a F-CF will likely die against a D7 with a vet
A Vet in a FCC+ and a Vet in a D7C are (imo) fairly well balanced.
A Vet in a F-CA and a vet in a D7 are (imo) giving a large advantage to the player in teh Fed ship.
Fleeting is (arguably) where it might benefit
A Vet in a DN + 2 Vets in specialty ships are really only going to be challenged by the same
A Vet in a DN + 2 Vets in line ships (even the CC's) might be challenged by a Vet in a DN, a noob in a Cf and a noob in a droner.
maybe, maybe not.
Really ideally this moves the aces into the CC's, and then some of the new players follow.
Yes they'll still almost certianly lose, but (again imho) the CC's/CWL's etc are generally better places to learn how to fly
than jumping in a CF or a droner from day 1.
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I'd actually argue that the D7C is fairly dominant as it is available quite early and outclasses alot of what is avaiable at its time of introduction while you only see hellbore ships much later in around 2260. The ships may be fairly balanced when they are all available but when they are not, one race will have some advantage. Also you are losing me a bit with the carriers. To me, that's a specialty ship. It needs an escort. Steve Cole says so. ;D
I agree with Chuut, I think. Vanilla line ships let's call them (i.e. not CCs) level the playing field more for vets and less experienced players. I think that is what he said.
OR
Are you saying when a vet is in a specialty ship including CCs in the line ships helps the less experienced player? That I would also agree with that, yet I am looking at speciality ships at this point as something intended to run people off as opposed to killing them. If PvP points only count for line ships, then vaporizing a noobie in X ship is no big accomplishment and garners you nothing except to force the player out of the hex for half as much time than if you had merely scared them out. Boo!
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I'd actually argue that the D7C is fairly dominant as it is available quite early and outclasses alot of what is avaiable at its time of introduction while you only see hellbore ships much later in around 2260. The ships may be fairly balanced when they are all available but when they are not, one race will have some advantage. Also you are losing me a bit with the carriers. To me, that's a specialty ship. It needs an escort. Steve Cole says so. ;D
I agree with Chuut, I think. Vanilla line ships let's call them (i.e. not CCs) level the playing field more for vets and less experienced players. I think that is what he said.
OR
Are you saying when a vet is in a specialty ship including CCs in the line ships helps the less experienced player? That I would also agree with that, yet I am looking at speciality ships at this point as something intended to run people off as opposed to killing them. If PvP points only count for line ships, then vaporizing a noobie in X ship is no big accomplishment and garners you nothing except to force the player out of the hex for half as much time than if you had merely scared them out. Boo!
Must be one of those stinkin SFB types ;D
I base everything (more or less) on what's available from 63-75. This is (usually) the longest period on a server. By 75 the CB's are (arguably) better than some of the races specialty ships in any case. And game balance shifts towards the BCH's anyway.
I don't agree with Chuut- (sorta) yes putting a new player in a F-CC+ and having him go up against a vet in a D7 might be a tough fight for the vet (likely not though) The problem is that you know have one vet able to fly a F-CA and another stuck in a D7.
As for the running off bit- again that's beyond my control. No this system doesn't prevent DH or Duck from jumping in the biggest cheesiest ship there is and driving 20 noobs away from a planet hex laughing manically all the way.
This system only works if there are a fair number of map VC's and PVP points count for something.
And of course there would have to be a kill thread :P
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You're never going to balance the vet with a new player
A noob in a F-CF will likely die against a D7C with a vet
A noob in a F-CF will likely die against a D7 with a vet
But he may last longer, and not get as discouraged in the vanilla D7 fight.
A Vet in a FCC+ and a Vet in a D7C are (imo) fairly well balanced.
A Vet in a F-CA and a vet in a D7 are (imo) giving a large advantage to the player in teh Fed ship.
While that is true, when you factor in non traditional foes the balance is skewed at all levels Command cruiser as well as vanilla. Also the D7 pilot might just decide to hop into a Gorn CA to fight the Fed more evenly, of couse the Fed pilot might then jump into an ISC CA.....etc...
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Here's my view on it. Vets only in speciality and scary ships roughing people up and jousting is not great. Vets will always stand a better chance then newbs other things being equal, so basically we are asking the vets to make it a fair fight if they want the PvP points. Vet vs newb in equally matched ships? Vet should win. No problem unless we have a newb prodigy and if he wins, more power to him. This is basically all I am looking for. A fairer fight. If they are so good, let them prove it in a ship that requires skill rather than a big bank account.
Further, I would think that vets might be induced to prove their metal by flying PvP eligible ships instead of speciality ships, if they can not only use their skills to wins PvP points but also cause the other fellow to be subject to a hex banning by winning the engagement. It's the best of both worlds if you can pull it off.
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When I think of flying a command variant and getting a bonus It doesn't make me hesitate, when I think about a vanilla ship to get the same bonus I do. This makes me think vanilla is definately the way to go if you want the bonus and better for the newer players. Will any of the vets do it? When you think of getting caught in one by another vet in a specialty or command variant it isn't too appealing. That is the downside, and why you'd almost have to only allow vanilla ships to force disengagement or give pilots flying vanilla ships with only vanilla wings immunity from disengagement penalties to go along with the PvP point bonus.
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Unfortunately (as I see it) both of you are looking for a system that punishes (for lack of a better word- I don't think you're actually trying to punish them) a vet who wants to fly PVP. Yes it's important to help the newer players out, but we don't have alot of them and telling someone they've got to fly a ship with 7xPh2's is a bit harsh by my estimates. :P
If any admin wants to set a system up that extends the idea to this degree they're more than welcome to.
But I still maintain the idea of including the command variants will work well enough.
The CWLP (As an example) is a fantastic ship, but it's not a hex flipper as well as a combat ship (like the D5D)
or a chase ship for fleets( AS CF's tend to be)
The command variants (tend to) do one thing-PVP as opposed to the mutl roles offered by some of the other ships.
I'm also not sure Lepton- what you mean by benefitting players with big bank accounts- everything I've proposed is only intended to deal with stuff up to CA size hulls- really the difference between any of the ships is going to be about 1K tops, so about 2-3 missions.
As for the fair fight?_ It's not going to happen over the course of a server, -all joking aside about my PVP skillz, I'm not even close to one of the top pilots, but I've smacked new players in BCH's using a D5 or a CWLP, I've beaten Fed CC's with a DWLP, and I've crushed Lyran CC's with a (admittedly LDR) FF
And I'm sure that each of those could have been done easier and faster by any of the better players.
You make players better by having them show an ineterst in PVP, then by having them fly a CC/CA type ship
Sticking a Fed noob in a CF isn't (imo) going to teach them alot about power management, handing a Lyran noob a BCPP in 68 isn't going to help him develop anti-drone tactics.
Yes it would be better if we could put them in CA's- but some of those are just not fun to fly.
I know Chuut likes some of the old boats,but persoanlyl I can't stand running around in something like the D7.
The CC variants are (I'd hope) fun enough for everyone, yet don't have the "jack of all trades" ability some of the specialties do.
I have no intention of completely leveling the playing field between the elite player and one showing up for their first game.
At some point the newbie has to take on the challenge of becoming better at PVP (if they deisre) of their own iniative.
-I myself did this, I listened to all the jokes and comments, then went out, got out of the BCHs and fought battle after battle.
While I didn't arrive at elite status, I like to think I had become decent enough at one point that even the better players at least had to pay attention when flying against me. (Of course after a year or so of barely any PVP I suck again.. but oh well ;D )
Really all the system is intended to do is move the elite players (and hence the killer fleets) away from the specialty ships
and into the CC's. Hopefully some other players will follow them.
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Here is an idea for consideration:
Why don't we add a "Newbie" rule, which would make anyone designating themselves as a "Newbie" immune from giving up PvP points to the other side and unaffected by a disengagement rule, if destroyed flying anything other than a droner, carrier or tender. However they would be unable to claim any PvP points uder the same conditions and could not force disengagement.
If flying with a wingman, "Newbie" or Vet. the "Newbie Team" would only be worth 1/2 the PvP points (minimum of one) and could only claim 1/2 the PvP points for kills (also minimum of 1) and any forced disengagements would be of the 30 minute variety in such missions for either side regardless of whether they ran or were destroyed.
My thinking is this might help encourage the "Newbies" to engage in more PvP, mercy to be given more frequently in 1 v 1 matches with a "Newbie", and veterans more encouraged to wing up with "Newbies" even on the front.
The "Newbie" would have to designate themselves as such for the entire server.
What are your thoughts?
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Hexx squeaked:
At some point the newbie has to take on the challenge of becoming better at PVP (if they deisre) of their own iniative.
Thank you!
And there are more than a few vets willing to help them do this.
Chuut, my thoughts on that are no one would ever declare themselves a "newbie". It's a bit much to ask a player to step up and say "I suck, please give me special consideration".
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Another thought:
We could allow self-designated "Newbies" to take Command cruisers into the Cls and larger only areas. It might lend itself to some good fights for them versus vets in smaller ships and it might also be fun for them to have the biggest ships on the block.
If a "Newbie" gets 3 veteran kills in such a ship he would no longer be able to do so as he has been promoted.
And no Hexx you can't designate yourself a "Newbie" ;)
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Would the 1 point VC be for all kills? If it was, this might discourage pilots from just kamikazing their ships at opponents so that they can stay in hex. Also, my thought here is that if a hex is being fiercely fought over, all pilots should grab a better PvP ship before they enter the area. You get caught trying to run missions under your opponent with a droner or small-drafting frigate you should pay the consequences. Same 1 point VC for everyone, none of that hull size comparison crap! Or any other complicated PvP VC system.
I agree if you grab a droner and get caught you should pay the consequences, but I am strongly in favor of heavy metal being worth more PvP points for the very same reason, you want to get into that BCH or DN, you should also be willing to pay the consequences should you get blown up. Whats good for the goose......
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Another thought:
What if instead of having a disengagement rule for all being the same we make one that is a bit different depending on what you are flying.
Class #1 hex flippers This includes droners, carriers, pf tenders, and basically any ship capable of running particularly fast missions time after time.
Class #2 heavy metal
Class # 3 everything else flown solo
Class #4 All ships with a wing
Class #1 gets a disengagement rule with a radius. These ships run faster mission times and was one of the main reasons for the rule in the first place. The entire area would be ruled as too dangerous for them.
Class #2 gets a disengagement of full duration but only for the hex of the actual mission. No disengagement penalty if the heavy metal is lost, the loss of the ship is punishment enough. Limited numbers of these ships were available and when forced to disengage wouldn't likely be risked again in the same hex anytime soon.
Class #3 One hex disengagement only and only for 1/2 the normal time if it ran away. No disengagement penalty if it died. These ships were more plentiful and can't flip hexes as fast.
Class #4 All ships with a wing would be subject to a full disengagement penalty with radius but would be exempted from the disengagement penalty if they offered to fight a foe without a wing one at a time and this offer was accepted. The winged team choosing the order in hich they were to engage. A solo player accepting these terms must fight to the death, a memebr of the winged team may disengage if they can make it off the map. The next memeber of the winged team may not start his participation in the battle until the previous battle is resolved and is at leat range 75 from the solo player. During segments of the fight when a player is waiting for their turn they must power down their weapons and turn off any defensive systems which might interfere with the fight in progress.
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Pros
Keeps players in the hot areas more and encourages them to stay and fight more. It encourages more 1 v 1 fights, and one at a time fights when a numbers disparity has occurred. Rewards players for not being in heavy metal or hexflippers on the front.
Cons
Not quite as simple as a One rule fits all
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I was under the impression that a lot of players have got sick of the ridiculously large and complex rulesets that seem to come with a campaign nowadays? Seems to me that we have gone overboard with rules and took the fun out of the game for some people. I for one havent become a fan of the way recent server rules have been developed and implemented, prefered the simpler way of doing things.
But hey, maybe thats just me :huh:
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...prefered the
Do tell the simplier way of doing things.
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...prefered the
Do tell the simplier way of doing things.
You know my position on several things, OOB, disengagement rules etc, why discuss them to death again, especially when it looks like i am one of the few who dislikes the use of heavy rules that has crept into the game. I'm not going to waste my time posting a lot of possible rules when its clear that there is no chance of them ever being used, you think that some of the rule heavy OOB obsessed admins are going to use rules that were used in the past campaigns (talking about several years ago)? i think not. I tell it as i personally see it, i don't care if people disagree with me or not, its my opinion and i stick by it, everyone has their own opinion.
I gave my vote and my opinion as was asked by Jeff in terms of my view on disengagement, thats me done with this topic now.
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Alright I'm on about my third try of posting this. Stupid maintenace cycles.
Special rules single out new players, and addd to a rules thread. RMs should make sure new players feel welcome/protected, not the rules set. During week 1 of AOTK2, I only lost CA(W)s when I was flying alone.
Bubble disengagement works decent enough when terrain gives you a reference and teams are evenly sized. Small teams get hurt by this rule in my mind though.
No disengagemnt on death has drawbacks of the victorious player getting jumped by the person he killed as soon as he comes out of mission. 10-15 minutes allows for a mission or 2(plasma races, a couple more for a droner) to be done without fear of running into the player you just killed when you come out.
I voted for rule four, but would like to see at least some time on a kill, 10-15 minutes just means a bathroom/food/ship purchase break for the defeated party.
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I gave my vote and my opinion as was asked by Jeff in terms of my view on disengagement, thats me done with this topic now.
Well jeez, sorry I asked YOU. I really wanted to hear it. For the next server Im planning I'd like to use only the fleeting rules and a smattering of others. Im not a rules fan either. Easy to get carried away doing it tho. There havent been many campaigns between SG servers Ive done and so Im a little rusty when it comes to knowing any other way to do things. So far everything ive read... skimmed over seems even more complicated than what I had. I seriously wanted to give the Mog rules a try... at least for a day. If a sh*t load of people showed up on mog day, hey that says something more than a poll, right?
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Thanks all for the comments, keep them coming.
Hexx, do you work? ;) Many replies...lol
My map will also play into how the rules work.
More later.
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No disengagemnt on death has drawbacks of the victorious player getting jumped by the person he killed as soon as he comes out of mission. 10-15 minutes allows for a mission or 2(plasma races, a couple more for a droner) to be done without fear of running into the player you just killed when you come out.
Well if you did just kill them then they are in a smaller replacement ship and haven't resupplied it and their base must have been next door to where you fought ;) Usually it does take a few minutes at least to get a new ship and equip it, chances are it will be at least 15 minutes before you are drafted by the same player, although it might happen more often if your in a hex flipper as you will be running more missions..
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Chutt, why in th world are you trying to make this stuf WAY more complication than what Hexx is saying? It seams you like are intentionally adding complications that don't exist to discredit his idea.
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I was under the impression that a lot of players have got sick of the ridiculously large and complex rulesets that seem to come with a campaign nowadays? Seems to me that we have gone overboard with rules and took the fun out of the game for some people. I for one havent become a fan of the way recent server rules have been developed and implemented, prefered the simpler way of doing things.
But hey, maybe thats just me :huh:
I basically agree with you Grim, but I also recognize that a server totally devoid of a disengagement rule will not be popular with a significant portion of the community. I also feel they are somewhat justified by this as hexflippers would tend to dominate.
Thats why I'm in favor of the system I proposed above. If you are in a non hexflipper and solo you will never be forced to disengage if you fight to the death and if you run you are out of one hex for 30 minutes only. If you seek some combat or hex flipping advantage by using a hexflipper, heavy metal, or a wingman, then you face the consequence of seeking such advantage with a stiffer penalty for failure, and even if you intended to go in solo but happened to draft a wing you can still opt to fight one at a time if all agree and thus avoid the greater disengagement penalty.
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Well...appearantly.....there are only two classes of people who matter.....aces and noobs....
And only those who are good at PvP....
Thanks for proposing yet another rule that discourages me from even trying to bring some threat to the table...
All this is going to result in is aces having IMUNITY from players of lesser skill.....sorry...that kill doesnt count...even though if the tables were turned...the kill would count....
Sorry...you killed my DRED AND my HUMAN ESCORT with a D5D....kill dont count...
Hell...Khans spectacular kills....NONE OF THEM...would have counted under this proposed rule...oh...that's fair....sure it is...
It's elitest as hell....the Chuutbot for example....flying a Mirak line ship(which in anyone else's list would be classed a "droner")....would face no penalty ,what so ever, for losing a ship in PvP and be right back in that hex as soon as the shipyard cycles...
Oh yeah...that's not elitist in any way....
What we need is a way to quantify pilots SKILLS...regardless of what ship they fly...and apply a handicap system....
Until you do that....these rules are inherantly unfair to people of lesser skills....
In order to score points.....you are trying to force players into battle matches they will rarely,if ever....win...
Why should aces have imunity from ANYONE....due to the ship they are flying?
Why should Kahns kills NOT count?
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Chutt, why in th world are you trying to make this stuf WAY more complication than what Hexx is saying? It seams you like are intentionally adding complications that don't exist to discredit his idea.
Not at all the case. I was simply proposing a system that would do alot of what the disengagement rule is suppossed to be for while taking out undesired consequences to encourage flying of non-specialy and non heavy metal ships and to engage in more 1 v 1 PvP matches.
If you fly a line type cruiser and fly solo it is actually very simple and rewards you.
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Chutt, why in th world are you trying to make this stuf WAY more complication than what Hexx is saying? It seams you like are intentionally adding complications that don't exist to discredit his idea.
Not at all the case. I was simply proposing a system that would do alot of what the disengagement rule is suppossed to be for while taking out undesired consequences to encourage flying of non-specialy and non heavy metal ships and to engage in more 1 v 1 PvP matches.
If you fly a line type cruiser and fly solo it is actually very simple and rewards you.
You are proposing a set of Rules so complicated Dizzy would be proud :P
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Chutt, why in th world are you trying to make this stuf WAY more complication than what Hexx is saying? It seams you like are intentionally adding complications that don't exist to discredit his idea.
Not at all the case. I was simply proposing a system that would do alot of what the disengagement rule is suppossed to be for while taking out undesired consequences to encourage flying of non-specialy and non heavy metal ships and to engage in more 1 v 1 PvP matches.
If you fly a line type cruiser and fly solo it is actually very simple and rewards you.
To wit.....you chuut....it rewards you...(not a dig)...
But that is your usual operation...
Unless you are willing to class ANY SHIP with more that two drone racks a "droner"...and ANY ship that carriers fighters as a "carrier" such a rule only beifits hydrans and mirak pilots...and Aces...
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Well...appearantly.....there are only two classes of people who matter.....aces and noobs....
And only those who are good at PvP....
Thanks for proposing yet another rule that discourages me from even trying to bring some threat to the table...
All this is going to result in is aces having IMUNITY from players of lesser skill.....sorry...that kill doesnt count...even though if the tables were turned...the kill would count....
Sorry...you killed my DRED AND my HUMAN ESCORT with a D5D....kill dont count...
Hell...Khans spectacular kills....NONE OF THEM...would have counted under this proposed rule...oh...that's fair....sure it is...
It's elitest as hell....the Chuutbot for example....flying a Mirak line ship(which in anyone else's list would be classed a "droner")....would face no penalty ,what so ever, for losing a ship in PvP and be right back in that hex as soon as the shipyard cycles...
Oh yeah...that's not elitist in any way....
What we need is a way to quantify pilots SKILLS...regardless of what ship they fly...and apply a handicap system....
Until you do that....these rules are inherantly unfair to people of lesser skills....
In order to score points.....you are trying to force players into battle matches they will rarely,if ever....win...
Why should aces have imunity from ANYONE....due to the ship they are flying?
Why should Kahns kills NOT count?
Holy over reaction batman!
All I was proposing Crim, is that if you make someone (in this case a "newbie") immune from giviving up points for getting killed, you extend the same quality to their opponent. A fight with a "newbie" becomes unimportant for PvP points in this way and a veteran might be more likely to engage them with a lesser ship making for a more even fight. The idea is to encourage the newbies to give PvP a try and not be scared of it while at the same time not giving them any advantage campaign wise. Imagine if Risky had called himself a "newbie", the guy had PvP skills from the start. He could have been dusting veterans with immunity and collecting great rewards doing so. By making them unable to claim points in return for them being immune to giving up points it most protects the veteran who isn't a PvP ace.
I have no problem with a veteran who doesn't see themself as a PvP pilot applying the "newbie" lable to themselves. They give up the risk but they also give up the rewards. Likewise I'd have no problem with a "newbie" deciding not to take on the label. It would be each pilots choice.
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Why should Kahns kills NOT count?
Killing Metal ALWAYS should count for something, that is a good point.
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Chuuts point brings up something I brought up before. You shouldn't be worth and VP points unles you've killed at least one pilot that server.
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To wit.....you chuut....it rewards you...(not a dig)...
But that is your usual operation...
"but that is your usual operation...." Geez Crim that sure sounds like a dig to me ;) I'll let it pass beyond that mention however.
Unless you are willing to class ANY SHIP with more that two drone racks a "droner"...and ANY ship that carriers fighters as a "carrier" such a rule only beifits hydrans and mirak pilots...and Aces...
Not really as a Klingon line cruiser with 7 transporters can do some very quick missions for a line ship. Other races have casual carrie and casual tender line ships you may have forgotten. I promise you i can run missions in a D7C at approximately the same rate I can in a Mirak CC, and my Z-CCH mission times and my D7W times are comaparable as well.
Worried about Kzinti ships with 4 drone racks? well give me Klingon arcs turn modes and transporters and I'll give up the racks, I can do fine in a Klingon ship under the Kzin flag ;)
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Chuuts point brings up something I brought up before. You shouldn't be worth and VP points unles you've killed at least one pilot that server.
I havent killed a pilot for a few servers now....why should I not count as a kill?
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To wit.....you chuut....it rewards you...(not a dig)...
But that is your usual operation...
"but that is your usual operation...." Geez Crim that sure sounds like a dig to me ;) I'll let it pass beyond that mention however.
Ahem....you fly mostly solo...yes?....you fly mostly "line" ships....yes?....you do this all the time to deepstrike...yes?....it's not really a secret...
Unless you are willing to class ANY SHIP with more that two drone racks a "droner"...and ANY ship that carriers fighters as a "carrier" such a rule only beifits hydrans and mirak pilots...and Aces...
Not really as a Klingon line cruiser with 7 transporters can do some very quick missions for a line ship. Other races have casual carrie and casual tender line ships you may have forgotten. I promise you i can run missions in a D7C at approximately the same rate I can in a Mirak CC, and my Z-CCH mission times and my D7W times are comaparable as well.
Yes chuut...I'm sure you can....but I cannot...I freely admit it...
Worried about Kzinti ships with 4 drone racks?
You mean "line" ships?...worried?...no.....seeing an inherant rules bias in favor of Hydrans and Mirak "line" ships?....yes...
well give me Klingon arcs turn modes and transporters and I'll give up the racks, I can do fine in a Klingon ship under the Kzin flag ;)
I'm sure you'd do fine in just about any ship chuut....but there are those of us who do not...
You can fix "plain old suck"....
I'm only threat to a human pilot in a D5D or a D6U with cheesy ass fighters...
It seems as though I shouldnt be a "threat" at all....either my classing myself as a noob...or flying line crap I can hardly beat AI in...
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Chuuts point brings up something I brought up before. You shouldn't be worth and VP points unles you've killed at least one pilot that server.
I havent killed a pilot for a few servers now....why should I not count as a kill?
Because you're a n00b :P
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Chuuts point brings up something I brought up before. You shouldn't be worth and VP points unles you've killed at least one pilot that server.
I havent killed a pilot for a few servers now....why should I not count as a kill?
Because you're a n00b :P
LOL...bastard...No...it's because I suck....I have hit a skill wall I have never broken through....
I understand tactics...I understand break ranges and EW....I understand weaknesses...
I just cant apply them...
I've tried other races...it just gets worse...
None of that has made me not want to play.....
Telling me I will no longer count for anything ...that just might do it...
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Chuuts point brings up something I brought up before. You shouldn't be worth and VP points unles you've killed at least one pilot that server.
I havent killed a pilot for a few servers now....why should I not count as a kill?
Because you're a n00b :P
LOL...bastard...No...it's because I suck....I have hit a skill wall I have never broken through....
I understand tactics...I understand break ranges and EW....I understand weaknesses...
I just cant apply them...
I've tried other races...it just gets worse...
None of that has made me not want to play.....
Telling me I will no longer count for anything ...that just might do it...
Tow Hexx into a rock on the first day, that will count.
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Telling me I will no longer count for anything ...that just might do it...
Tell me about it.... Granted, I missed a lot of SGO6, but I felt pretty damn useless as I only had, at most, 8 PvP fights the entire server and was only in on the kill of a K-FWL as part of a 3v3.
Add to that the loss of a M-FDXm in PvP (and a H-OM I j'inn'd RIGHT after losing a H-OS to a planet killer ::) ) and my whole server was pretty lame....
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"One man's cheese, is another man's only hope for survival" KBF-Crim
Only if you're opponent has Cheese, otherwise all you need is practice :)
Dude...I'll admit it....after almost 7 years of playing this game...I'm a mediocure player at best...I can barely beat the AI in a line ship...
Straight up....if practice where the answer...I'd be a frickin ace by now.......oh sure I like to play....hell...I love this game......but I stopped deluding myself a year or two ago....
I found this white paper to be quite useful for getting the basics down:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163361467.0.html
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Would the 1 point VC be for all kills? If it was, this might discourage pilots from just kamikazing their ships at opponents so that they can stay in hex. Also, my thought here is that if a hex is being fiercely fought over, all pilots should grab a better PvP ship before they enter the area. You get caught trying to run missions under your opponent with a droner or small-drafting frigate you should pay the consequences. Same 1 point VC for everyone, none of that hull size comparison crap! Or any other complicated PvP VC system.
I agree if you grab a droner and get caught you should pay the consequences, but I am strongly in favor of heavy metal being worth more PvP points for the very same reason, you want to get into that BCH or DN, you should also be willing to pay the consequences should you get blown up. Whats good for the goose......
:multi: :goodpost: :multi:
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Telling me I will no longer count for anything ...that just might do it...
Tell me about it.... Granted, I missed a lot of SGO6, but I felt pretty damn useless as I only had, at most, 8 PvP fights the entire server and was only in on the kill of a K-FWL as part of a 3v3.
Add to that the loss of a M-FDXm in PvP (and a H-OM I j'inn'd RIGHT after losing a H-OS to a planet killer ::) ) and my whole server was pretty lame....
I spent a whole year without being able to connect to hardly anyone in PvP until I finally had my router system figured out. I was just happy in SG06 to be able to connect with everyone. Before, I could only connect consistently with peoply in TCP/IP games or I had to resort to using dial-up ISP account.
Suddenly, the game is seen in a whole different light when I can wing and PvP with 90+ percent of the playerbase.
Karnak => is OK C++ programmer, just DO NOT let this frog near the network gear. :P
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Ya it was good finally seeing how you could connet with players. I wonder how much an influence your scripting codes took from your inability to connect b4 hand.
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Ya it was good finally seeing how you could connet with players. I wonder how much an influence your scripting codes took from your inability to connect b4 hand.
Before, getting in good PvP was not a priority cuz I was too busy mucking around with mission scripts. Now, my focus is back on PvP so I trouble-shoot my network problems more seriously. ;D
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Chuuts point brings up something I brought up before. You shouldn't be worth and VP points unles you've killed at least one pilot that server.
I havent killed a pilot for a few servers now....why should I not count as a kill?
Because you're a n00b :P
LOL...bastard...No...it's because I suck....I have hit a skill wall I have never broken through....
I understand tactics...I understand break ranges and EW....I understand weaknesses...
I just cant apply them...
I've tried other races...it just gets worse...
None of that has made me not want to play.....
Telling me I will no longer count for anything ...that just might do it...
I'm with you here, I too can't apply some of the stuff I know- so I'm claiming the Noob banner !!!
I've been in the same ship for the last 3 servers (D5) mostly because I'm horrified at the thought of facing one of you aces in a specialty ship, so I avoid PVP like the plague (unless I get to wing with an ace), so I relegate myself to 'support services' like hex flippin and hex reinforcment vs AI.
I remember my first PVP on Dyna- Duck had a DWD, and I had a D7C- I was destroyed in the first pass. I haven't been in anything larger than a D6 since (unless you count my I-BBVz for base killing). Sure, I'd play more PVP if my deaths didn't hurt my team so much.
On a personal note- sorry Dave, I didn't want to kill you (in SGO6), but you begged me too.
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Some very good points here.
Certainly one that I agree with is that larger capital ships (BCH and larger) should be worth more than 1 VC pt if killed. You fly the heavy metal ships, you pay a higher price. Hey, it's not like its ever happened to me. ;)
As for singling out what is or is not a "line ship" so that you can figure who, what, or when a VC PvP point should or should not be awarded. Gimme a break. This is exactly the discussions that I see as completely pointless on the forums. This is just more of the SFB conjectureable tripe that I could care less about. How about a simple VC PvP pt ladder based on hull size. How about just this.
Heavy cruiser (yes, even the command variants) or smaller - 1 VC pt if killed
BCH (cruiser, carrier, PF tender, all variants) - 2 VC pts if killed
DN, CVA (ya know, the really big crap) - 4 VC pts if killed.
No points awarded for disengagement, just a time penality. I do prefer the radius disengagement rule if the map is large. Personally, I like the larger maps. But the disengagement area should fit the map size. I would like to see shorter disengagement times, like a 30 minute max. It sucks for anyone who may have 1-3 hours to play at any given time to be told that since they have now disengaged from the current "hot" zone they will have to fly their remaining missions elsewhere. Hmmmmm, fun. With Capt Jeff's idea of no time penalty for loss of ship, this is corrected completely. You could certainly put a small time penalty on loss of ship, say like 1/2 or 1/3 of the full disengagement penalty so that the defenders (or attackers) do have some gained advantage for the kill. If fact maybe that would be best. A good compromise.
Now, as for the possible classifying of pilots as a "newbie". Come on guys. Why don't we just get them to add a N to the end of their name so we can all tell right off. What, no branding irons? No hoop hexes they have to jump through to get to the front lines? We all know there is learning curve for new pilots. Certainly this is a game where pilot skill more so than ship selection is what determines how most missions finish out. Especially, live PvP matches. Do we have to blalantly point this out to everyone. They know it (or will shortly), we know it. Why set up a rule base that clearly points out, "Hey, your a newbie. Therefore your ability to get PvP VC pts is limited. But guess what, you ability to lose pts is just as limited. Aren't you thrilled?" Wow, that sure would me feel special. Woudn't you think that they might feel more as an equal member of this community if we treat them as such?
Sure, I've offered newer players a tow after it became evident to me (we Gorn can be slow at times)that they were a new player. Some accept, some tell me to finish them off. "Hey, its part of the game, but I sure did fight you well!" I've heard several times. You are going to have some new players more cautious, while others will be right out there whooping our ass, and having us vets asking, "Hey, who was that masked man?"
I will consistently do what I can to support this community however and whenever I can. I just don't think that some of these complex and ultimately distracting rules help.
Agave
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Some very good points here.
Certainly one that I agree with is that larger capital ships (BCH and larger) should be worth more than 1 VC pt if killed. You fly the heavy metal ships, you pay a higher price. Hey, it's not like its ever happened to me. ;)
As for singling out what is or is not a "line ship" so that you can figure who, what, or when a VC PvP point should or should not be awarded. Gimme a break. This is exactly the discussions that I see as completely pointless on the forums. This is just more of the SFB conjectureable tripe that I could care less about. How about a simple VC PvP pt ladder based on hull size. How about just this.
Heavy cruiser (yes, even the command variants) or smaller - 1 VC pt if killed
BCH (cruiser, carrier, PF tender, all variants) - 2 VC pts if killed
DN, CVA (ya know, the really big crap) - 4 VC pts if killed.
No points awarded for disengagement, just a time penality. I do prefer the radius disengagement rule if the map is large. Personally, I like the larger maps. But the disengagement area should fit the map size. I would like to see shorter disengagement times, like a 30 minute max. It sucks for anyone who may have 1-3 hours to play at any given time to be told that since they have now disengaged from the current "hot" zone they will have to fly their remaining missions elsewhere. Hmmmmm, fun. With Capt Jeff's idea of no time penalty for loss of ship, this is corrected completely. You could certainly put a small time penalty on loss of ship, say like 1/2 or 1/3 of the full disengagement penalty so that the defenders (or attackers) do have some gained advantage for the kill. If fact maybe that would be best. A good compromise.
Now, as for the possible classifying of pilots as a "newbie". Come on guys. Why don't we just get them to add a N to the end of their name so we can all tell right off. What, no branding irons? No hoop hexes they have to jump through to get to the front lines? We all know there is learning curve for new pilots. Certainly this is a game where pilot skill more so than ship selection is what determines how most missions finish out. Especially, live PvP matches. Do we have to blalantly point this out to everyone. They know it (or will shortly), we know it. Why set up a rule base that clearly points out, "Hey, your a newbie. Therefore your ability to get PvP VC pts is limited. But guess what, you ability to lose pts is just as limited. Aren't you thrilled?" Wow, that sure would me feel special. Woudn't you think that they might feel more as an equal member of this community if we treat them as such?
Sure, I've offered newer players a tow after it became evident to me (we Gorn can be slow at times)that they were a new player. Some accept, some tell me to finish them off. "Hey, its part of the game, but I sure did fight you well!" I've heard several times. You are going to have some new players more cautious, while others will be right out there whooping our ass, and having us vets asking, "Hey, who was that masked man?"
I will consistently do what I can to support this community however and whenever I can. I just don't think that some of these complex and ultimately distracting rules help.
Agave
:multi: :goodpost: :multi:
Whatever the Gorn is drinking, I'll take it. ;D :drink:
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Some very good points here.
Certainly one that I agree with is that larger capital ships (BCH and larger) should be worth more than 1 VC pt if killed. You fly the heavy metal ships, you pay a higher price. Hey, it's not like its ever happened to me. ;)
As for singling out what is or is not a "line ship" so that you can figure who, what, or when a VC PvP point should or should not be awarded. Gimme a break. This is exactly the discussions that I see as completely pointless on the forums. This is just more of the SFB conjectureable tripe that I could care less about. How about a simple VC PvP pt ladder based on hull size. How about just this.
Heavy cruiser (yes, even the command variants) or smaller - 1 VC pt if killed
BCH (cruiser, carrier, PF tender, all variants) - 2 VC pts if killed
DN, CVA (ya know, the really big crap) - 4 VC pts if killed.
No points awarded for disengagement, just a time penality. I do prefer the radius disengagement rule if the map is large. Personally, I like the larger maps. But the disengagement area should fit the map size. I would like to see shorter disengagement times, like a 30 minute max. It sucks for anyone who may have 1-3 hours to play at any given time to be told that since they have now disengaged from the current "hot" zone they will have to fly their remaining missions elsewhere. Hmmmmm, fun. With Capt Jeff's idea of no time penalty for loss of ship, this is corrected completely. You could certainly put a small time penalty on loss of ship, say like 1/2 or 1/3 of the full disengagement penalty so that the defenders (or attackers) do have some gained advantage for the kill. If fact maybe that would be best. A good compromise.
Now, as for the possible classifying of pilots as a "newbie". Come on guys. Why don't we just get them to add a N to the end of their name so we can all tell right off. What, no branding irons? No hoop hexes they have to jump through to get to the front lines? We all know there is learning curve for new pilots. Certainly this is a game where pilot skill more so than ship selection is what determines how most missions finish out. Especially, live PvP matches. Do we have to blalantly point this out to everyone. They know it (or will shortly), we know it. Why set up a rule base that clearly points out, "Hey, your a newbie. Therefore your ability to get PvP VC pts is limited. But guess what, you ability to lose pts is just as limited. Aren't you thrilled?" Wow, that sure would me feel special. Woudn't you think that they might feel more as an equal member of this community if we treat them as such?
Sure, I've offered newer players a tow after it became evident to me (we Gorn can be slow at times)that they were a new player. Some accept, some tell me to finish them off. "Hey, its part of the game, but I sure did fight you well!" I've heard several times. You are going to have some new players more cautious, while others will be right out there whooping our ass, and having us vets asking, "Hey, who was that masked man?"
I will consistently do what I can to support this community however and whenever I can. I just don't think that some of these complex and ultimately distracting rules help.
Agave
No, I want, no DEMAND special treatment !
If my loss means nothing, GREAT ! If killing you means nothing so what, at least I get bragging rights, and TONS of experience.
Of course losing consistantly will cost me numerous ships, and I'll end up flying a gunboat (just like my first server) and the 'ace' will still have his CC+.
:spam:
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Chuuts point brings up something I brought up before. You shouldn't be worth and VP points unles you've killed at least one pilot that server.
I havent killed a pilot for a few servers now....why should I not count as a kill?
Because you're a n00b :P
LOL...bastard...No...it's because I suck....I have hit a skill wall I have never broken through....
I understand tactics...I understand break ranges and EW....I understand weaknesses...
I just cant apply them...
I've tried other races...it just gets worse...
None of that has made me not want to play.....
Telling me I will no longer count for anything ...that just might do it...
Tow Hexx into a rock on the first day, that will count.
*crim begins to wipe pepsi from keyboard*
You know...you really need to warn people when you going to be so damn funny... ;D
Point well taken...
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Argh
Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.
OK
~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.
I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today ;D
~ Second
The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.
This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.
It also allows new players 2 options, they can try and score PVP points by jumping into a CC, or they can fly a specialty ship
and try and push people out of hexes. Whichever they find more fun.
Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.
Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.
People have pointed out that "well everyone will jump in CCH's...duh"
Yes they will- after 2275. Before that they will (hopefully) be in the CC's/CWL's that aren't as good as
the races CF.
~3rd
People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.
4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp
It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.
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"One man's cheese, is another man's only hope for survival" KBF-Crim
Only if you're opponent has Cheese, otherwise all you need is practice :)
Dude...I'll admit it....after almost 7 years of playing this game...I'm a mediocure player at best...I can barely beat the AI in a line ship...
Straight up....if practice where the answer...I'd be a frickin ace by now.......oh sure I like to play....hell...I love this game......but I stopped deluding myself a year or two ago....
I found this white paper to be quite useful for getting the basics down:
[url]http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163361467.0.html[/url]
The basics arent a problem....
I know how to dance....I'm just not any good at it... ;)
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Best learning a newbie gets is when he gets pwnd. The newbs need to be encouraged to get killed. Only way they get better.
I had a match near the end of the server where several newbs attacked me with such reckless abandon they almost killed me... I heard later they asked for permission to engage me with their capital ships as they were expecting to die, which they did. But hearing that made me think about how hard they press their attacks. The worst of it was when we had a build system on past servers. Losing BP ships was quite painful and as a result noobs never really flew them and those servers were heavy metal elitest.
But lets face it, if there wernt pvp penalties for dying, I'd get a lot more PvP and the best part is that newbs would engage in combat much more often and would be better for it. And I do think a shorter hex ban penalty is in order.
It does, however, need to be pointed out that from ALL the engagements, losses and PvP points doled out over the entire SGO6 campaign, only ONE Victory Point was earned from it the entire campaign irrc. So in perspective, it all depends on how the PvP points are calculated. Newbs must be made aware they can die and not hurt their team. The rules have to allow for this if you use PvP points.
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"4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp"
Again....this means that if I kill anyone flying a D5D....it's worth no PvP points....yet my death (at the hands of an ace in a line ship)...is worth PvP points...
I fail to understand why you want to give this type of immunity to the very people who dont need it the first place...
I certainly dont want any type of immunity...killing me should count as good an killing anyone ragrdless of what I'm flying.....I just want credit for any kill I might get lucky enough to pull off...regardless of what I'm flying...
IIRC...the only kills I've ever gotten on any server were in a D5D....
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Adding more points to specialty or capital ships will do nothing but push newbies away from even trying to learn how to use them.
No matter which disengagement rule is used, the skilled player will usually win, and the loser will suffer consequences of being out of that hex, or losing a PVP point. Both of which is disheartening to the loser. I would think it would be in the best interest of everyone, to allow the players that need to polish their PVP skills, to allow them to get back into the hotspot and play again. You CAN'T get better, if you don't learn from the mistakes you made. You lose a point, but get back in and try again, that = learning. Having someone forced out of the hotspot, means less PvP = not learning.
SS3 will have limits on CVA/DN/BCH/Carrier type ships allowed at a time. A large part of the map will not be open to any of those ships, as it will be CL or smaller. The amount of Map VC's will be fair. PvP will definitely play a role in the outcome of the campaign, but since there will be newbies on both sides, I can't believe one side would benefit so much that the campaign would be decided by this.....
It also comes down to sportsmanship. The winner of the PvP will report the kill. If you are a ACE pilot, and you just thrashed some newbie, do you really need to report it? Maybe tell them at the beginning of the match, that if they stay, LEARN, and quite possibly die trying to kill you, then they have earned your respect, and you will not report the kill?
After all, it's not who wins the match or the campaign, it's who had fun right. Games are for fun ;)
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Argh
Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.
OK
~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.
I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today ;D
~ Second
The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.
This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.
It also allows new players 2 options, they can try and score PVP points by jumping into a CC, or they can fly a specialty ship
and try and push people out of hexes. Whichever they find more fun.
Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.
Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.
People have pointed out that "well everyone will jump in CCH's...duh"
Yes they will- after 2275. Before that they will (hopefully) be in the CC's/CWL's that aren't as good as
the races CF.
~3rd
People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.
4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp
It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.
Don't tell Kreug, but I'm gonna fly for the alliance next server. If your saying dying will get me more experience- I'm game. But to be real, I'd rather it cost the 'bad guys' than my team.
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Argh
Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.
Funny, that's what I thought you were doing.
~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.
I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today ;D
Subtle Hexx, very subtle. Stupid or not, I have heard those exact things expressed to me on more than one occasion.
~ Second
The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.
This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.
Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.
Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.
Ok. How about we try breaking up the hunter/killer fleets in a different way. Or even with a combination of ideas.
(1) New fleeting rules - only CL or smaller ships can escort capital ships (speciality CLs too)
(2) Instead of hull restricted mosh pit, how about an area where no one can fly together, set up special rules for that area so as to encourage pilots to fly there; a 1v1 PvP haven, it might just bring back more open challenges
Want do you think about these ideas?
~3rd
People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.
Agreed.
4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp
A live PvP kill should always be worth something. Sure, if you get your opponent to disengage, you have done just what you say. I don't think we have ever been talking about awarding pts for disengagements.
It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.
Why don't we just take these super death ships out of the shiplist then? If everyone is going to take the best ship possible so that they can compete on equal terms, why not put a ceiling on what ships are available. I wouldn't care, personally, if the admins chopped off all BCH and bigger ships from the shiplist. But here again, there are some that like to fly those ships that have their own gravitational fields.
Round and round we go. Where we stop only Capt Jeff really knows.
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<shrug>
It is unfortunately an imperfect system,
It came about from listening to people complain that the elite pilots winged with each other using the best
"specialty" ships they could and therefore made it all but impossible for the PVP impaired pilots to kill them.
I talked to some of the elite pilots, and got the same answer from each of them
-They'd love to fly line ships , but while everyone else was flying specialty they had to fly specialty
or they'd be hurting they're team. (Yes this is oversimplification)
So the solution seemed to be to give the elite pilots a reason to fly the lineboats.
I strongly believe-for simplicity's sake if nothing else- that we need *one* ruleset that applies to everyone
Not some stupid "Well he's newb so he's out of the hex for 15 seconds, he's a kinda experienced players, so we'll let him back in in 20, oh he's some super elite, if he loses he's out of that hex for 2 hours"
Or some list with all the players name and PVP ranking that tells us how their PVP skill is..
Essentially (as I see it) it's a choice- either give the elite players a reason to stay out of the specialties- and apply the same restrcitions to other people- or don't and leave the elite players flying the specialty ships.
Really I'm good either way, I'd enjoy the former more -but that's a personal (don't really like CFs) and a racial thing-
Any of the other races really contribute a bit more to killer fleets than Lyran ships (arguable exception of STL)
Lyrans can-and certainly have - contributed, but there's always a sense that otehr aces would be better additions.
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Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.
A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.
You want to limit CF's in this scenario, you have two options:
1) Remove them totally
2) Fleeting restrictions
Even if they are assigned or limited, I'm still going to use them in the role where they are most effective, and that's escorting cap ships.
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Argh
Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.
Funny, that's what I thought you were doing.
~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.
I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today ;D
Subtle Hexx, very subtle. Stupid or not, I have heard those exact things expressed to me on more than one occasion.
~ Second
The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.
This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.
Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.
Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.
Ok. How about we try breaking up the hunter/killer fleets in a different way. Or even with a combination of ideas.
(1) New fleeting rules - only CL or smaller ships can escort capital ships (speciality CLs too)
(2) Instead of hull restricted mosh pit, how about an area where no one can fly together, set up special rules for that area so as to encourage pilots to fly there; a 1v1 PvP haven, it might just bring back more open challenges
Want do you think about these ideas?
~3rd
People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.
Agreed.
4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp
A live PvP kill should always be worth something. Sure, if you get your opponent to disengage, you have done just what you say. I don't think we have ever been talking about awarding pts for disengagements.
It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.
Why don't we just take these super death ships out of the shiplist then? If everyone is going to take the best ship possible so that they can compete on equal terms, why not put a ceiling on what ships are available. I wouldn't care, personally, if the admins chopped off all BCH and bigger ships from the shiplist. But here again, there are some that like to fly those ships that have their own gravitational fields.
Round and round we go. Where we stop only Capt Jeff really knows.
~ I don't consider "You have to fly a line ship to score a PVP VP point" as a complicated rule
Opinions (of course) may vary
~ If you've had someone express to you that you're hurting your team by losing a ship I'd suggest you tell them to STFU or just post it in the forums. Hopefully they'll get roasted.
However I would consider you to be a better- so if it was directed at you maybe tehy were just joking?
~ I would love to see an area of 1v1 combats worth VP points on a server
~ The CL specialty ships are some of the problems , that being sai I think tehy're less of a problem than some of the CF's
Really (as I mentioned in another part) mine was just an idea, I'm more than willing to fly howvwer it's decided
~ The only ships (honestly) I'd like to see outof the lists are the HDWs (but Chuut seems to like them... cheesey bastard)
The idea was that anyone could fly what tehy wanted and liked to (up to metal of course) but that only some of them scored VP.s
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Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.
A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.
You want to limit CF's in this scenario, you have two options:
1) Remove them totally
2) Fleeting restrictions
Even if they are assigned or limited, I'm still going to use them in the role where they are most effective, and that's escorting cap ships.
Solution: Count ALL Carriers and CFs as Capital ship in regards to Fleeting. No more cheese fleets.
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When did we ever use a carrier in that role?
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Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.
A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.
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Unquestionably tey're more effective- that's why they're used.
But if the DNL 2 xCF combo couldn't score any PVP VP points, players might try with a DNL 2xCC combo
Again it completely depends on the map- on a map with few VP hexes you'd still fly the 2XCF, as the area denial would be far more effectice
on a map with a few dozen VP hexes, you might try the CC's- as the PVP vps might be worth more to a side.
Again I think the system has ease of use and would work .
It's not going to be perfect.
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When did we ever use a carrier in that role?
We didn't, I just didn't want to give all the blame to Fast Cruisers ;D
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But if the DNL 2 xCF combo couldn't score any PVP VP points, players might try with a DNL 2xCC combo
No, you are totally wrong here. People will still use the best possible combo they can.
In the mind of the PvP pilot, WINNING THE FIGHT is more important than "points". It always has been and always will be.
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But if the DNL 2 xCF combo couldn't score any PVP VP points, players might try with a DNL 2xCC combo
No, you are totally wrong here. People will still use the best possible combo they can.
In the mind of the PvP pilot, WINNING THE FIGHT is more important than "points". It always has been and always will be.
An Strategicly speaking, kicking them out of the hex is better than the VP points anyway.
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No matter which disengagement rule is used, the skilled player will usually win, and the loser will suffer consequences of being out of that hex, or losing a PVP point. Both of which is disheartening to the loser. I would think it would be in the best interest of everyone, to allow the players that need to polish their PVP skills, to allow them to get back into the hotspot and play again. You CAN'T get better, if you don't learn from the mistakes you made. You lose a point, but get back in and try again, that = learning. Having someone forced out of the hotspot, means less PvP = not learning.
I don't fancy the idea of losing PvP points for losses in the cheaper line ships and as the PvP points add up it could discourage new players from engaging in PvP matches even if there is no hex ban to worry about.
To compensate, I would keep the ship costs cheap; especially, since people like to use multiple racial accounts, don't give up PvP points for losses of line ships, but reduce the one hex radius ban period to 30 minutes from one hour. If a new player is constantly suffering PvP losses then they need a veteran to wing with and the 30 minutes ban period can be used to regroup and find a wing.
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But if the DNL 2 xCF combo couldn't score any PVP VP points, players might try with a DNL 2xCC combo
No, you are totally wrong here. People will still use the best possible combo they can.
In the mind of the PvP pilot, WINNING THE FIGHT is more important than "points". It always has been and always will be.
No
Winning the fight has been more important as the maps we've used have tended to only have 1-2 areas of VP targets
easily accessable at one time.
Therefore winning the fight is far more important than scoring a few kills.
If, instead, yes you'd won the fight, but there was 12-15 other hexes that your opponenets could jump to you'd likely be far less
content with simply driving them off.
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To compensate, I would keep the ship costs cheap; especially, since people like to use multiple racial accounts, don't give up PvP points for losses of line ships, but reduce the one hex radius ban period to 30 minutes from one hour. If a new player is constantly suffering PvP losses then they need a veteran to wing with and the 30 minutes ban period can be used to regroup and find a wing.
We did this on AOTK2, nobody flew Line ships on that either
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Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.
A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.
You want to limit CF's in this scenario, you have two options:
1) Remove them totally
2) Fleeting restrictions
Even if they are assigned or limited, I'm still going to use them in the role where they are most effective, and that's escorting cap ships.
Solution: Count ALL Carriers and CFs as Capital ship in regards to Fleeting. No more cheese fleets.
Treating CF's as capital ships really helps control this ship from getting flown in EVERY engagement... I was sick of seeing them abused like they were on SG6.
All carriers? Nah, the carrier rules we have are ok. I'd even go so far as lowering patrol carriers to standard carriers and just catagorizing trhe interdiction carriers as capital ships. Carriers arnt that uber... There are ways of dealing with them as long as there arnt too many.
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Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.
A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.
You want to limit CF's in this scenario, you have two options:
1) Remove them totally
2) Fleeting restrictions
Even if they are assigned or limited, I'm still going to use them in the role where they are most effective, and that's escorting cap ships.
Solution: Count ALL Carriers and CFs as Capital ship in regards to Fleeting. No more cheese fleets.
Treating CF's as capital ships really helps control this ship from getting flown in EVERY engagement... I was sick of seeing them abused like they were on SG6.
All carriers? Nah, the carrier rules we have are ok. I'd even go so far as lowering patrol carriers to standard carriers and just catagorizing trhe interdiction carriers as capital ships. Carriers arnt that uber... There are ways of dealing with them as long as there arnt too many.
Okay, what Dizzy said :)
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A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.
WRONG. DH and I had an excellent castling match together against TT and Hexx. Then I had one with Butcher against Ducks Z-BB. Castling against 2x mirvs and 12 racks is tough! :o I castled against a Z-CM+ and a F-CX with my ISC X. Then there was that infamous corner castling twat match where kroma tried to find out what I had for lunch. And there were other instances where going fast were certainly not the way to play it.
But despite these examples, CF's are gonna get slapped with a restriction fit for a capital ship.
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Anything that punishes CF's is fine in my books.
Now about those plasma users..
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To compensate, I would keep the ship costs cheap; especially, since people like to use multiple racial accounts, don't give up PvP points for losses of line ships, but reduce the one hex radius ban period to 30 minutes from one hour. If a new player is constantly suffering PvP losses then they need a veteran to wing with and the 30 minutes ban period can be used to regroup and find a wing.
We did this on AOTK2, nobody flew Line ships on that either
I do not think there is a rule set anywhere that will keep the elite players out of the specialty ships unless you start charging them PP by the hour to rent the uber ship or something onerous like that. Have seen this trend in both SFCOP and SFC3 dynas. Everyones goal is to get into the most uber ship possible.
Best you can do is reduce the impact of specialty ships with max. heavy iron limits, fleeting rule limits, no VP scores for kills, but VP losses for losses, etc. People will always use the best ships available to dominate the hot zones, but if you can counter this by ganging up on the specialty ships and bagging them for VCs then that's fun. ;D
Granted that people will naturally gravitate towards the best specialty ships, it does the new player no good if they can go back in the hex immediately for another disadvantageous PvP fight to lose more VP points. It's better to take a breather and find a vet to wing with to go get the specialty ships. All the while, the new player does not have to worry about losing VPs if they are flying line ships to start with.
When it comes to crunch-time in the hot zones, the RMs are gonna push the rulesets and shiplist to the limit in order to send in the best players with the best ships they can find to control the hexes they need to meet the current rounds VCs.
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~ If you've had someone express to you that you're hurting your team by losing a ship I'd suggest you tell them to STFU or just post it in the forums. Hopefully they'll get roasted. However I would consider you to be a better- so if it was directed at you maybe tehy were just joking?
Well, thanks for that vote of confidence, but I only consider myself a mediocre pilot at best. :'(
What I was referring to was OTHER pilots saying those things to me. Hell, considering I've lost an ISC BBV in a homeworld assault I got suckered into by Kroma, if I worried about every ship I've lost that mission would have severly f*cked me up. ::) Of course, there is always the chance I just started that way too. :-\
Malak and Crim, you guys crack me up. Keep the zingers coming.
Agave
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I'm speaking in general Dizzy, not for every single fight. Try that combo against plasma, or 8xPF's or 24 fighters.
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Anything that punishes CF's is fine in my books.
Now about those plasma users..
Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF. It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then. :police:
The Gorn fast cruiser would be the CMF which could easily be resticted in my book. Several pilots found out on SGO6 how much this ships rocks when flown in a nebula or as an escort.
(or were you implying you wanted all us plasma users punished too. :o )
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I'm speaking in general Dizzy, not for every single fight. Try that combo against plasma, or 8xPF's or 24 fighters.
Let us focus on 2263 to 2279, I have some other ideas for post 2280 . . . .
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Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF. It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then. :police:
Doesnt matter, there are other ships to fly. Jeff has half his map or something the BF cant even fly in. :P
Due to the GW, the gorn dont get their stimulus package till 75. So DH floated the idea of pushing their F refits up to 2270. I happen to like that idea. One CF per fleet MAX is good. Catagorizing them as capital ships is better, although more severe.
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Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF. It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then. :police:
Due to the GW, the gorn dont get their stimulus package till 75. So DH floated the idea of pushing their F refits up to 2270. I happen to like that idea. One CF per fleet MAX is good. Catagorizing them as capital ships is better, although more severe.
Doesn't this sort of reverse the imbalance though? (not sarcasm-don't know)
If the Gorn BC is out in 70, instead of 75, won't that be an imbalance for teh Roms who (I believe) both built and upgraded the FH series between 71-75? Or are you moving those up as well?
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Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF. It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then. :police:
Due to the GW, the gorn dont get their stimulus package till 75. So DH floated the idea of pushing their F refits up to 2270. I happen to like that idea. One CF per fleet MAX is good. Catagorizing them as capital ships is better, although more severe.
Doesn't this sort of reverse the imbalance though? (not sarcasm-don't know)
If the Gorn BC is out in 70, instead of 75, won't that be an imbalance for teh Roms who (I believe) both built and upgraded the FH series between 71-75? Or are you moving those up as well?
The Roms have hte Kestrals at that time.
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Don't really look evenly matched to me <shrug> but it's plasma so what do I know.
Long as none of the Roms have any complaints though I certainly don't.
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Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF. It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then. :police:
Doesnt matter, there are other ships to fly. Jeff has half his map or something the BF cant even fly in. :P
Due to the GW, the gorn dont get their stimulus package till 75. So DH floated the idea of pushing their F refits up to 2270. I happen to like that idea. One CF per fleet MAX is good. Catagorizing them as capital ships is better, although more severe.
I certainly hope you guys are not suggesting the Gorn get the F refit before they get the + refit. I'm not a SFB guru, but I played the game. If I remember correctly, the + refit upgraded the G torps to S torps, and THEN the F refit added the defensive F torps. I sincerely hope you guys are not planning on the Gorn flying with G torps until 2275.
Can you explain a little more?
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DH can flesh it out, it's his proposal, and I like it. However, if we want to leave them all as is, then we need to run a campaign where we have traditional alliances and a map with traditional ally and enemy empire placement. But that's no fun. :P
EDIT: And I forgot the most important part, we need each empire to be playable only when they historically entered the GW... so the Gorn as a race wouldnt be playable till the romulans launched their assault in 75.
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My proposal is to add the F-torps WHILE the G-Torps are still on the ships. Upgrade to S torps stays on Schedule.
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Argh
Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.
OK
~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.
I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today ;D
~ Second
The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.
This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.
It also allows new players 2 options, they can try and score PVP points by jumping into a CC, or they can fly a specialty ship
and try and push people out of hexes. Whichever they find more fun.
Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.
Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.
People have pointed out that "well everyone will jump in CCH's...duh"
Yes they will- after 2275. Before that they will (hopefully) be in the CC's/CWL's that aren't as good as
the races CF.
~3rd
People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.
4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp
It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.
Hexx, I totally agree. It is a great system. You restated exactly what I was going to say after seeing this thing spin out of control. If you want to earn PvP points, earn them in a ship that will test your metal, a line ship. Killing someone or running them off still is as meaningful (if not in a line) as it always was as it effects the map with the hex ban rule.
Note this does not mean that folks cannot fly crazy capital ships battle if they wish and people surely will, but the effect of a win or loss in this type of battle will be the hex ban that has a map effect and if a cap ship is destroyed, the loss of fielding it for a period of time.
It's merely a system to induce folks to fly line ships and to my mind potentially level the playing field a bit in PvP.
But, I will make this addition which I am sure someone already suggested. Make line ships immune to the disengagement rule when attacked by a non-line ship. Tada!! So you can bring all the heavy metal you want into a hex, but if you are merely running off line ships and vaporizing them, you are only accomplishing the DV shift. To really drive a line ships out, you will have to get in a line ship and duke it out.
Sorry, if this was suggested already but I can't see a downside right now to this proposal.
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Make line ships immune to the disengagement rule when attacked by a non-line ship.
That is interesting...
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"4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp"
Again....this means that if I kill anyone flying a D5D....it's worth no PvP points....yet my death (at the hands of an ace in a line ship)...is worth PvP points...
I fail to understand why you want to give this type of immunity to the very people who dont need it the first place...
I certainly dont want any type of immunity...killing me should count as good an killing anyone ragrdless of what I'm flying.....I just want credit for any kill I might get lucky enough to pull off...regardless of what I'm flying...
IIRC...the only kills I've ever gotten on any server were in a D5D....
Crim, in the system I am proposing one can only gain PvP points by both players being in a line ship. I am not saying that it is not difficult or skillful to be able to take someone out in a D5D. All I am proposing is a sort of artifical system that rewards folks for flying line ships in that the battles they fight against other line ships will have a special status in that the victor earns points for their side. That's it.
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"4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp"
Again....this means that if I kill anyone flying a D5D....it's worth no PvP points....yet my death (at the hands of an ace in a line ship)...is worth PvP points...
I fail to understand why you want to give this type of immunity to the very people who dont need it the first place...
I certainly dont want any type of immunity...killing me should count as good an killing anyone ragrdless of what I'm flying.....I just want credit for any kill I might get lucky enough to pull off...regardless of what I'm flying...
IIRC...the only kills I've ever gotten on any server were in a D5D....
Crim, in the system I am proposing one can only gain PvP points by both players being in a line ship. I am not saying that it is not difficult or skillful to be able to take someone out in a D5D. All I am proposing is a sort of artifical system that rewards folks for flying line ships in that the battles they fight against other line ships will have a special status in that the victor earns points for their side. That's it.
And I'm saying that doing so ,will eliminate an entire facet of the game for some people....myself included...
I refuse to be "induced" to flying certain ships for the pleasure of others....this is a game...not military service...
So under this system...once one side gets a PvP kill advantage...all they need to do to to keep from loosing any points for the duration of the server ,is to NOT fly line ships anymore...
3 seconds and I found an exploit....what next..a rule that says line ships MUST be flown?
Sorry...but that's just plain old goofy...
I applaud the goal...but the means of getting there are all fupped duck...
The simplest damn thing was posted in the first page...by me....just make line ships worth a point..and specials worth two...
I'll even add....beat a ship one class higher....add a point....beat a ship two classes higher....two points...etc...
So my D5D...beaten by DH in an FF (just an example)...would be worth
2 pts for a special killed...
+2 pts for out of class combat...
where as ...If I killed him...it would only be worth one point....no negative modifiers apply
What I'm saying is...one battle could generate mutiple points for the liner...and a single for the special...
Ideally...we'd throw in a modifier for skill levels also...
Only an Ideal....but either scenario still generates a reward...instead of a penalty...
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It's a good point you raise. Had not considered that. Perhaps with removing the disengagement rule for line ships when attacked by non-line ships would be a sufficient inducement to fly the lines ships again. What's to prevent this happening in the current system? A side could elect to mothball its capital ships and have everyone fly flippers knowing that flippers can run many missions under a heavy metal fleet from the opposing side engaging anyone for a significant length of time. I take your point. It's definitely an issue, but it is my presumption that people will want to fly these line ships. If they do not, it will never work in the first instance.
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I'll even add....beat a ship one class higher....add a point....beat a ship two classes higher....two points...etc...
So my D5D...beaten by DH in an FF (just an example)...would be worth
2 pts for a special killed...
+2 pts for out of class combat...
Class info on the engaging players can be posted in the mission debrief screens. Can even put in the class differential between the opposing players.
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Let me toss something out completely from left field here. I have been reading these posts for quite some time tonight, and wondered if this next idea sounds like fun or not.
1-All PvP VETS(and you know who you are) are to use line ships
2-All non-PvP pilots(pretty much everyone else, noob or not) can use larger(not like Chutt or Soreyes or flippers ever will)
3-Each team has max heavy metal limits and Capital ship restrictions
4-All ships have virtually no costs(allowing the casuals a big ship early, even if they lose one, or 2, or is TraumaTech ;) )
5-All ships worth 1 point dead, with the weekly scoring system used on SG06(losing a ship does not cost a team)
6-Heavy metal and Cap ships worth maybe say 2 points max.(not to discourage use of them by non PvPer)
Perhaps some PvP gurus will not like this idea, but I for one, PvPer, would love the challenge of taking on PvPers in line ships, and giving the non-PvPers a chance at bigger ships, to make the challenge on our end tougher, while knowing we can replace our ship should we lose it, as can the Non-PvPer.
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It's a good point you raise. Had not considered that. Perhaps with removing the disengagement rule for line ships when attacked by non-line ships would be a sufficient inducement to fly the lines ships again. What's to prevent this happening in the current system? A side could elect to mothball its capital ships and have everyone fly flippers knowing that flippers can run many missions under a heavy metal fleet from the opposing side engaging anyone for a significant length of time. I take your point. It's definitely an issue, but it is my presumption that people will want to fly these line ships. If they do not, it will never work in the first instance.
I'm just a sneaky old wargamer...exploits are my specialty...each rule has an equal but opposite effect....law of equivolent exchange...for something to be gained....something else must be given up....*Blatent full metal alchemist reference*
Carrot or stick....I'd prefer carrot...
Like I said....a reward for the line flyer is better than a penalty for the special...make a kill with a liner worth double.....
That alone should be incentive enough to get a few aces into them...And since a specialty is worth double when killed by a liner....some people will downsize to avoid giving up double points...
The liner gets a bonus...while at the same time....the special doesnt get a penalty...
Seems like a win/win to me.....and it still achives the same goal...without someones efforts seeming worthless or second class...
:)
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I like the idea that any PVP win is a VP. I haven't had too many PVP's, so the idea appeals to me, and I would like to see my kill count in the overall campaign.....
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You can fix "plain old suck"....
I'm only threat to a human pilot in a D5D or a D6U with cheesy ass fighters...
It seems as though I shouldnt be a "threat" at all....either my classing myself as a noob...or flying line crap I can hardly beat AI in...
I think you got off track in my meaning here Crim. I didn't anywhere say you could not fly a specialty or line ship, For me this has never been a good option. I only suggest that if you do fly carriers, droners, or heavy metal, a stronger disengagement penalty would apply, this penalty being identical to the one that everyone had on SG6. I repeat there is nothing that says you couldn't fly a specialty ship. What I am proposing is a system that might reward "aces" for stepping down to a less pvp capable ship and that would encourage pilots who want to PvP but are afraid of hurting their team by doing so to have such an opportunity to do so without it becoming a burden to their side, whether real or imagined. Under my propossal youd be in EXACTLY the same situation as on SG^ when flying a D5D or D6U, no change at all.
If you think you suck, let me tell you you don't. For example, You think a bit more about strategy than many pilots on, thats why sometimes I have to go hunting for you. Other online pilots might be attacking uncreative areas, your attacks have usually been guided by better thinking than the average opponent and thus I have to address them, when flying against you. Their are certain opponents whose activities I make a special point of watching, and many "PvP aces" are not on this list, you are. As far as PvP, I haven't encountered you outside a droner very often and noone knows how to take out a droner better than a drone boat skipper, so I can't really judge your skills in PvP from that limited exposure. I'm willing to make you a deal, however, out of a respect for you. I'll show you a few PvP tricks that will likely improve your performance, if you swear not to share them with the rest of your fleet who I'm often facing as foes ;) It wont make you a "top ace" I'm not one either, but may improve your PvP accumen and if your like me, you don't mind losing to a better player as long as you manage to put up a good fight. Just let me know and we will arrange a time.
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Anything that punishes CF's is fine in my books.
Now about those plasma users..
Could it have anything to do with these being the ships that are fast enought to catch you before you can run off the border? ;)
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2-All non-PvP pilots(pretty much everyone else, noob or not) can use larger(not like Chutt or Soreyes or flippers ever will)
And what was I flying the last time I watched you make top speed for the border? And what was I flying the last time I turned your ship into space dust? Perhaps you'd like to rethink that last statement ;)
Sure I spend alot of time in smaller ships, droners and others, they are usually among my favorites for the race I'm flying. The only races with CA classes I like as much as the CLs are Feds, Roms, and Lyrans. The only races where I like the BCHs better than the CAs are Roms and Lyrans, and their is no race where I prefer ships bigger than a BCH. I will fly a non-preferred ship if the need arrises but generally stay in the ships I like best or are best for my purpose, is this wrong? Not a chance.
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I think you got off track in my meaning here Crim.
Quite possible....there are at least three topics going on here ;)
I didn't anywhere say you could not fly a specialty or line ship, For me this has never been a good option.
No ...you didnt....nor did I think you did...
Alot of what I'm saying is directed at the general idea of only awarding points to line ship kills of specials or line ship kills on other line ships (this one kinda evolved)
I only suggest that if you do fly carriers, droners, or heavy metal, a stronger disengagement penalty would apply, this penalty being identical to the one that everyone had on SG6.
Hmmm..I must have missed that item....THAT I can get along with...
I repeat there is nothing that says you couldn't fly a specialty ship.
Covered
What I am proposing is a system that might reward "aces" for stepping down to a less pvp capable ship and that would encourage pilots who want to PvP but are afraid of hurting their team by doing so to have such an opportunity to do so without it becoming a burden to their side, whether real or imagined.
A worthy goal.
Under my propossal youd be in EXACTLY the same situation as on SG^ when flying a D5D or D6U, no change at all.
That's fine....it's the other propsal I have issues with....
If you think you suck, let me tell you you don't. For example, You think a bit more about strategy than many pilots on, thats why sometimes I have to go hunting for you. Other online pilots might be attacking uncreative areas, your attacks have usually been guided by better thinking than the average opponent and thus I have to address them, when flying against you. Their are certain opponents whose activities I make a special point of watching, and many "PvP aces" are not on this list, you are.
I'm humbled by your kind words.....wargaming strategery I gots.....it's the tacticals I'm lacking....TACTICALS...not testicals :P
Oh I am dangerous alright.....kinda like getting stepped on by a horse is dangerous.....chances are...the horse didnt mean it... ;D
I know I'm not completely inept....but after years of playing I'm about as good as I'm going to ever get.....I have kinda settled into a nich role that I can fill with confidence...I wing...I distract...I "hit em where they aint"...I run cover...I run under....I hex munch...I dogpile..I sit rock...I chase deepstrikers...and occasionally....I hunt...
All these roles I can fill with one ship...the D5D....
As far as PvP, I haven't encountered you outside a droner very often and noone knows how to take out a droner better than a drone boat skipper, so I can't really judge your skills in PvP from that limited exposure.
I've been honestly avoiding PvP as of late.....unless my presence is requested as a wing....or to run cover for a hex team...
I'm willing to make you a deal, however, out of a respect for you. I'll show you a few PvP tricks that will likely improve your performance, if you swear not to share them with the rest of your fleet who I'm often facing as foes ;) It wont make you a "top ace" I'm not one either, but may improve your PvP accumen and if your like me, you don't mind losing to a better player as long as you manage to put up a good fight. Just let me know and we will arrange a time.
A generous offer.....and no...I dont fear loosing a battle....I fear putting a burden on my team for loosing a battle...
And I must be forthright....as a senior officer in the Klingon Black Fleet....I would immediately post any intel gathered from any such encounter for the exclusive use of my fleet brothers...
But we can work on my game, without you having to share yours... ;)
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Quite possible....there are at least three topics going on here ;)
Undoubtably I get lost myself regarding my own ideas, I'm kinda a brainstorming type and the storm blows out of control at times. Occassionally it brings a needed rain, most times it is just so much hot air :P
All these roles I can fill with one ship...the D5D....
Hey I'm an unashamed droner as well, I just like to diversify on occassion as sometimes I'm needed to fill a role that requires a different ship, but the droner is the ship which fits most (but not all) needs. They hexflip, they are perfect for planetary assaults, they make good wings in PvP for some ships, and they can be deadly in the right hands if your foe isn't very careful.
I've been honestly avoiding PvP as of late.....unless my presence is requested as a wing....or to run cover for a hex team...
A generous offer.....and no...I dont fear loosing a battle....I fear putting a burden on my team for loosing a battle...
A fear I have often shared, I'm a team oriented player as well, but strangely enough I generally prefer to fly alone unless a specific need arises. Part of the reason for that is that I don't want my screwups to get my wing killed. There are some wings I do particularly enjoy flying with and for the simple reason that I know I could lose a BB for the team and they wouldn't give a damn as long as I had fun. Nonetheless I don't want to hurt the team effort. Of course another reason I like to fly alone is I like to strike hard, strike fast, do the unexpected, and take risks that aren't necessarily good to do with a wingman, both in mission and strategically. Most of the time, I'm really not sure what hex I'm in, I get in my own private rythem. Yet what keeps me going and what keeps me playing this game is all the action on voice coms, no matter if I'm flying alone in mission, I got a group of wingmen in my ear and that is what makes it worthwhile for me.
And I must be forthright....as a senior officer in the Klingon Black Fleet....I would immediately post any intel gathered from any such encounter for the exclusive use of my fleet brothers...
LOL No problem I don't blame you, that kind of attitude is what has made the KBF so enduring. But I can't exactly let Dib know any secrets, he is too even a fight for me as is, and I sure can't risk WarSears actually learning how to properly fly a droneboat ;D
But we can work on my game, without you having to share yours... ;)
Cool. Anytime you want to fly a combat let me know. I have no problem in participating in some "for fun" fights during a server. If I'm not doing something critical for my team at that moment I'll met you for some fun, no VCs no disengagement involved, just fun.
P.S. Dont tell the folkes in Hot & Spicy that Chuut and Crim can get along so well, it might ruin or reputations over there ;) ;D :P :multi:
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Like I said....a reward for the line flyer is better than a penalty for the special...make a kill with a liner worth double.....
Not a bad Idea Crim, but I'd say make it worth +1 point instead of double. This would equate to double in the case of 1 pt ships, but would a 4 pt ship really be worth 8pts if killed by a liner? I could see 5pts but not 8 as some "liners" are very capable in PvP. perhaps the points could go as high as 150% norn but i think even that may be a bit much.
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2-All non-PvP pilots(pretty much everyone else, noob or not) can use larger(not like Chutt or Soreyes or flippers ever will)
Hmmm I have been known to get into a CA every once in awhile..... Even a BB ;D
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2-All non-PvP pilots(pretty much everyone else, noob or not) can use larger(not like Chutt or Soreyes or flippers ever will)
Hmmm I have been known to get into a CA every once in awhile..... Even a BB ;D
Yeah but thats only because we threaten to make you the Kzin Rm if you don't ;D
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Carrot or stick....I'd prefer carrot...
Like I said....a reward for the line flyer is better than a penalty for the special...make a kill with a liner worth double.....
That alone should be incentive enough to get a few aces into them...And since a specialty is worth double when killed by a liner....some people will downsize to avoid giving up double points...
The liner gets a bonus...while at the same time....the special doesnt get a penalty...
:goodpost:
Excellent!! Everyone has the ability to score PvP VC pts, and is encouraged try a line ship so that they can increase what points they could gain for any PvP kills. As long as the PvP pts gained are more than the standard kill, whether doubled or 150%, this seemed like the best system presented yet (sorry Hexx).
Agave
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Carrot or stick....I'd prefer carrot...
Strangely enough, so does Kroma . . .
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OK, I have read points about PVP, about noobs,about victory's counting and not counting,and about just about everything else in the book, everything but the one thing that counts and that is bridging the rift between the players that like the disengagement rule and the ones that don't and the great possibility of bringing back some of the ones that have stopped playing because of the rule. because my friends you can have all the rules and strategy's and tactics and the best game in the world but it doesn't mean a damn thing if there is no one around to play the thing.
and I for one am very tired of seeing people leave because of stupid arguments over this rule and that rule, lets just try to reach a point where we can all have fun.
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OK, I have read points about PVP, about noobs,about victory's counting and not counting,and about just about everything else in the book, everything but the one thing that counts and that is bridging the rift between the players that like the disengagement rule and the ones that don't and the great possibility of bringing back some of the ones that have stopped playing because of the rule. because my friends you can have all the rules and strategy's and tactics and the best game in the world but it doesn't mean a damn thing if there is no one around to play the thing.
and I for one am very tired of seeing people leave because of stupid arguments over this rule and that rule, lets just try to reach a point where we can all have fun.
Very true. Having fun is the most important goal. We are also attempting to create a "fair play" gaming environment AND continue to challenge those players who do still fly continuously. Granted, we don't always discuss things in a very tactful way (me included), but it does show we still care very much for this game. Its nice that we can bring so many different people together through this game. Even if it is only to have a heated discussion over a ship BPV or current rule.
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Carrot or stick....I'd prefer carrot...
Like I said....a reward for the line flyer is better than a penalty for the special...make a kill with a liner worth double.....
That alone should be incentive enough to get a few aces into them...And since a specialty is worth double when killed by a liner....some people will downsize to avoid giving up double points...
The liner gets a bonus...while at the same time....the special doesnt get a penalty...
:goodpost:
Excellent!! Everyone has the ability to score PvP VC pts, and is encouraged try a line ship so that they can increase what points they could gain for any PvP kills. As long as the PvP pts gained are more than the standard kill, whether doubled or 150%, this seemed like the best system presented yet (sorry Hexx).
Agave
No need for apologies ;D
But -you're wrong.
All it comes down to is is ace pilot #1 concerned that he might get jumped by ace pilot #2 while ace pilot #2 is flying a better ship.
Pleyers will forgo the opportunity to score 2 or possibly 3/ (whatever) pvp points to guarantee their side a better chance at a "sure thing"- a 1VP
victory. It differs from race to race and matchup to matchup (of course), but there is a big enough difference early between CF's/droners and line ships, and later between PF tenders (for example) and line ships that anyone looking to scoew kills will go teh safe route and grab teh specialty.
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Carrot or stick....I'd prefer carrot...
Like I said....a reward for the line flyer is better than a penalty for the special...make a kill with a liner worth double.....
That alone should be incentive enough to get a few aces into them...And since a specialty is worth double when killed by a liner....some people will downsize to avoid giving up double points...
The liner gets a bonus...while at the same time....the special doesnt get a penalty...
:goodpost:
Excellent!! Everyone has the ability to score PvP VC pts, and is encouraged try a line ship so that they can increase what points they could gain for any PvP kills. As long as the PvP pts gained are more than the standard kill, whether doubled or 150%, this seemed like the best system presented yet (sorry Hexx).
Agave
No need for apologies ;D
But -you're wrong.
All it comes down to is is ace pilot #1 concerned that he might get jumped by ace pilot #2 while ace pilot #2 is flying a better ship.
Pleyers will forgo the opportunity to score 2 or possibly 3/ (whatever) pvp points to guarantee their side a better chance at a "sure thing"- a 1VP
victory. It differs from race to race and matchup to matchup (of course), but there is a big enough difference early between CF's/droners and line ships, and later between PF tenders (for example) and line ships that anyone looking to scoew kills will go teh safe route and grab teh specialty.
Yes and no.
Yes, a 1VP point would be assured for any kills. For those players would are ok with that they would fly whatever ship they feel they have the best chance of getting those "sure thing" points with;
No, I don't think this idea would push players to "go the safe route", but encourage players to try and fight more PvP matches in line ships where the potential for glory and more VPs is higher. I mean that is the goal, right? To have more PvP fought with line ships. Or have I missed the point all-together?
(possible, but unlikely :P )
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If ANY VC points at all can be scored in a Specialty ship, "ace" pilots will still fly them.
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No, I don't think this idea would push players to "go the safe route", but encourage players to try and fight more PvP matches in line ships where the potential for glory and more VPs is higher. I mean that is the goal, right? To have more PvP fought with line ships. Or have I missed the point all-together?
(possible, but unlikely :P )
LOL, no you haven't missed the point
You have (apprently) missed the last 50 or so servers :P
Generally speaking- Players aren't after individual glory (well I am) as much as wanting to have their team win.
Your team wins by you flying the safest route- and that happens to be the specialty ships.
Again (most) of the specialty ships let you do 2 things- run fast missions AND dominate PVP.
Since no one is 100% sure on what they're going to encounter-or what the other guy is going to be flying- the easiest
(and best for your team) ship is going to be the specialty.
-No early line ship can really compete with the best of the specialties in early, and any line ship in late will get owned by the
specialties in that frame.
Any player flying a line boat jumped by an equally skilled player flying a specialty is going to be at a disadvantage in PVP.
Most of them won't do it.
EDIT- And that's not a bad thing- really they're being a teamplayer.
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So, because our players will not "voluntarily" fly these line ships, you want to create a rule that "forces" players to fly a line ship to gain PvP pts. No thanks. You could be creating a rule that dramatically reduces the amount of VP gained through PvP matches. Have you thought about that?
If fact, I'll take this a step further. (yes, I know the SFB purists are doing to hate me for this) It sounds like to me that you can maybe start taking some of these "line ships" out of the shiplist if no one "voluntarily" flys them. Some might say, "no, you can't do that, the variety of the line ships should be left in", and that is exactly my point about why speciality ships should not be so restricted. Hey, I'm fully aware of how they affect the map. But it sounds to me like majority has already spoken, but the "line ship" idea supporters are trying to give the future rule sets all a gentle *nug* in the direction that they want them to go, not the community.
Agave
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So, because our players will not "voluntarily" fly these line ships, you want to create a rule that "forces" players to fly a line ship to gain PvP pts. No thanks. You could be creating a rule that dramatically reduces the amount of VP gained through PvP matches. Have you thought about that?
If fact, I'll take this a step further. (yes, I know the SFB purists are doing to hate me for this) It sounds like to me that you can maybe start taking some of these "line ships" out of the shiplist if no one "voluntarily" flys them. Some might say, "no, you can't do that, the variety of the line ships should be left in", and that is exactly my point about why speciality ships should not be so restricted. Hey, I'm fully aware of how they affect the map. But it sounds to me like majority has already spoken, but the "line ship" idea supporters are trying to give the future rule sets all a gentle *nug* in the direction that they want them to go, not the community.
Agave
OK one more time (with feeling?? where have I heard that before.. anyway)
- Players say they want to fly line ships, but can't because their opposites may fly specialties
- Players will fly specialties **even against personal preference** if it helps their team win.
- New players join up, find the best players flying the best ships, and try to jump in and compete, and get utterly annihilated
get disheartened, and leave.
- This system forces players to fly line IF THEY WANT TO SCORE PVP POINTS and that's it. Anyone can still fly a specialty and run someone off
Anyone can fly a specialty and flip hexes- both of which on past servers have had FAR more impact than PVP engagements.
-A system of "well let's all be friends" doesn't work.- The "serious" servers are competitive- look no farther than some of teh stupid fllamewars we've had between
"coalition" and "Alliance". Like it or not, agree with it or not- it's there. If you let people score PVP points in the best ships, they will.
Now- the system proposed HAS to be agreed upon by most of those it effects. Will it be 100%? No. I don't think we've ever had a unamimous consensus on, well anything.
If the majority say they don't want it, that's fine. All we can really do is (if it's decided on) put up a server and see how it works.
As far as I'm concerned treating some of the specialty ships as capital ships (as Dizzy threw out) alleviates most of the concerns that I'm personally interested in.
People will still fly the specialties, but they can't fleet up.
But it sounds to me like majority has already spoken, but the "line ship" idea supporters are trying to give the future rule sets all a gentle *nug* in the direction that they want them to go, not the community.
Not even close, not even arguable
Yes it's the direction *I'd* like to see them go. But that direction has been determined by listening to players complaining about the specialty ships.
"The community" for the most part I'd say agrees with this- I think overall there's more support than resistance to the idea, aside from a vocal few.
Now- those vocal few (I call them "Crim" ;D ) raise excellent points.
Do we change a system that "works" to something that will (I think) improve the fun of the game for most (I'll call it 51%) but penalizes dedicated players like Crim?
I'd like to try it- but I also don't want to lose him as a player, so am more than happy to try and find a way to keep him happy.
(I'm pretty sure he killed me as a Rom once though- so not sure I believe his D5D stories..)
Anyway- like all my ideas it's simply something I'd like to see tried, the theory (I believe) is sound, but would have to be tried on a live server.
May work
May not.
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Okey - doekey.
I understand your points, and I hope you have thought about mine. I'll just wait and see. I've already become more involved in this discussion than I ever wanted to be. :)
Time to sit back and watch see what future admins come up with.
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What if . . .
Getting kills in a LINE ship is the ONLY way to obtain a Legendary crew?
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What if . . .
Getting kills in a LINE ship is the ONLY way to obtain a Legendary crew?
Doesn't really address the need of some players to be assigned Legendary DN crews to keep the ship for more than a day.
Actually- I'll edit my brilliant,yet subtle shot at t00l.
Wouldn't solve the problem, 50% of the legendary ships were lost on the server in the first 24 hours.
Obviously (in early anyway) they're simply not superior enough over a specialty ship to be of any real advantage.
What if.. (ah such a great series) there were VP points awarded at the end of a server for "long serving crews"
You could fly the line boats for a time (say.. 5 years) of game time. Server starts in 63 you have to fly and earn so much prestige
/have so many PVP kills/forced disengagements before 68 to get legendary ship #1. That ship continues until 73/75 when you get
Legendary upgrade ship (CB type) Then have to again accumulate X amount of prestige/PVP sucess.. success.. hmm
before the server end.
if you can keep a ship for this entire process your side gains XX VP points
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What if . . .
Getting kills in a LINE ship is the ONLY way to obtain a Legendary crew?
Interesting idea but I don't like it. The reason being that if you strart rewarding the "aces" who are capable of pulling of this feat with an additional PvP bonus in the form of legendary officers then you tilt the PvP advantage even further in the favor of the "ace", at the expense of the non-ace
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Wouldn't solve the problem, 50% of the legendary ships were lost on the server in the first 24 hours.
Obviously (in early anyway) they're simply not superior enough over a specialty ship to be of any real advantage.
t00l flying while drunk tells us nothing!!! :P
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Wouldn't solve the problem, 50% of the legendary ships were lost on the server in the first 24 hours.
Obviously (in early anyway) they're simply not superior enough over a specialty ship to be of any real advantage.
t00l flying while drunk tells us nothing!!! :P
Well ... has he ever flown when sober?
I kinda assumed for the baseline...
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What if.. (ah such a great series) there were VP points awarded at the end of a server for "long serving crews"
You could fly the line boats for a time (say.. 5 years) of game time. Server starts in 63 you have to fly and earn so much prestige
/have so many PVP kills/forced disengagements before 68 to get legendary ship #1. That ship continues until 73/75 when you get
Legendary upgrade ship (CB type) Then have to again accumulate X amount of prestige/PVP sucess.. success.. hmm
before the server end.
if you can keep a ship for this entire process your side gains XX VP points
Something like that.
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Wouldn't solve the problem, 50% of the legendary ships were lost on the server in the first 24 hours.
Obviously (in early anyway) they're simply not superior enough over a specialty ship to be of any real advantage.
t00l flying while drunk tells us nothing!!! :P
he sure as hell wasn't sober when he suggested we over-run 3 castling plasma ships :)
Well ... has he ever flown when sober?
I kinda assumed for the baseline...
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here is an idea for line ships that I'm just throwing out.
What if any pilot losing a "heavy metal ship" was allowed to return to the area in which he was killed without a disengagement penalty but only if they did so in a line ship.
If the area was "hot" enough they might choose to do so.
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Yes I know it was kinda incomprehensible.. the opportunity to bash t00l always makes me lose focus.
Anyway- yes, I don't see a problem with some sort of system that lets a player choose to try and
keep one ship (essentially) through the course of a server, (which is I assume the goal) as long as there is
some reward if they manage to do it.
Of course once the Legendary ship was assigned there would have to be a prestige minimum (so the ship was flown) and a PVP goal of some sort set (so it wasn't just used to rack up hex flipping)
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here is an idea for line ships that I'm just throwing out.
What if any pilot losing a "heavy metal ship" was allowed to return to the area in which he was killed without a disengagement penalty but only if they did so in a line ship.
If the area was "hot" enough they might choose to do so.
Interesting.. I like it but..
-Heavy Metal really isn't common enough for it to have a pronounced effect and specialty ships are so common
that it would render disengagement largely pointless around a hot hex.
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heavy metal lossed have become so rare that this rule would just be silly.
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heavy metal lossed have become so rare that this rule would just be silly.
Well it would give a player a reason to fly a line ship on the front. It would be a rare occassion but not as rare as line ships have been on the front during the last few servers ;)
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Here is another idea for you to encourge line ships/traditional enemies.
Use the map to create certain small areas that were off the main path but kinda between traditional foes with no embassy bases in the area. Specialty ships and heavy metal would be banned from these areas and a VC target placed within them. The resoning being that this was an "exploratory" area of space and prized specialty ships could not afford to be taken off the main front, but the resources of this area could help the war effort, so second class warships were assigned to bring these targets under empire control. Most of these targets would likely be along neutral space on the map edges.
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here is an idea for line ships that I'm just throwing out.
What if any pilot losing a "heavy metal ship" was allowed to return to the area in which he was killed without a disengagement penalty but only if they did so in a line ship.
If the area was "hot" enough they might choose to do so.
Interesting.. I like it but..
-Heavy Metal really isn't common enough for it to have a pronounced effect and specialty ships are so common
that it would render disengagement largely pointless around a hot hex.
I had suggested that line ships need not follow the disengagement rule when attacked by non-line ships some time back in this thread as an inducement to flying them. Tool said interesting and that's about as far as it got.
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- This system forces players to fly line IF THEY WANT TO SCORE PVP POINTS and that's it. Anyone can still fly a specialty and run someone off
Anyone can fly a specialty and flip hexes- both of which on past servers have had FAR more impact than PVP engagements.
There you go...using the "F" word again...
Yes it's the direction *I'd* like to see them go. But that direction has been determined by listening to players complaining about the specialty ships.
"The community" for the most part I'd say agrees with this- I think overall there's more support than resistance to the idea, aside from a vocal few.
Now- those vocal few (I call them "Crim" ;D ) raise excellent points.
Do we change a system that "works" to something that will (I think) improve the fun of the game for most (I'll call it 51%) but penalizes dedicated players like Crim?
I'd like to try it- but I also don't want to lose him as a player, so am more than happy to try and find a way to keep him happy.
I never said I wouldnt play ;)
(I'm pretty sure he killed me as a Rom once though- so not sure I believe his D5D stories..)
Nope...I have never flown rommie on any server...I hate plasma.....flying a plasma boat is Crimmy torture #4...one reason I never flew on 4 powers war...
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Nope...I have never flown rommie on any server...I hate plasma.....flying a plasma boat is Crimmy torture #4...one reason I never flew on 4 powers war...
I wouldn't call flying a plasma boat exactly tortue....Flying a plasma boat against another live player in a plasma boat, now getting there, being stuck on the Gorn/Rom border doing it repeatedly now thats torture. ;D
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Torture is you vs Dfly both in plasma boats.
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Torture is two plasma boats period.
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OK, here's another random sleep-deprived question: what would be the implications of having a server where there were a ton of resupply points but only one or two places per empire where you could purchase ships? E.g. suppose you could resupply in any of your empire's shipping lane hexes, but each empire only had a couple of bases/planets a long way from the front.
(Resupply in shipping lanes would happen by having a 15-second mission that didn't draft anyone, didn't have any combat, and didn't affect dv - it simply restocked your ship, charged you for the supplies, then ended.)
dave
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OK, here's another random sleep-deprived question: what would be the implications of having a server where there were a ton of resupply points but only one or two places per empire where you could purchase ships? E.g. suppose you could resupply in any of your empire's shipping lane hexes, but each empire only had a couple of bases/planets a long way from the front.
(Resupply in shipping lanes would happen by having a 15-second mission that didn't draft anyone, didn't have any combat, and didn't affect dv - it simply restocked your ship, charged you for the supplies, then ended.)
dave
Realistic....no empire would place ship building facilties far from the core of their territory....too tempting a target....
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Cool
But problematic if you could flip an enemy supply lane deep in their territory and resup from it.
Although server rules would likely prevent it, I simply don't trust anyone.
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2-All non-PvP pilots(pretty much everyone else, noob or not) can use larger(not like Chutt or Soreyes or flippers ever will)
And what was I flying the last time I watched you make top speed for the border? And what was I flying the last time I turned your ship into space dust? Perhaps you'd like to rethink that last statement ;)
Sure I spend alot of time in smaller ships, droners and others, they are usually among my favorites for the race I'm flying. The only races with CA classes I like as much as the CLs are Feds, Roms, and Lyrans. The only races where I like the BCHs better than the CAs are Roms and Lyrans, and their is no race where I prefer ships bigger than a BCH. I will fly a non-preferred ship if the need arrises but generally stay in the ships I like best or are best for my purpose, is this wrong? Not a chance.
Chutt, you better refresh my memory then, because I never died by you this server. The only one I remember was the previous server, where you and I met only once, and you lost your ship. Perhaps it was someone else?
Also, I just suggested your name as an example. IT could represent anyone who can decide not to use bigger ships is all.
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Torture is you vs Dfly both in plasma boats.
Actually torture would involve being on the sameTS channel with Dizzy during this ;D
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No torture is being on the same channel as DH and I during a PvP.
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I must be a glutton for punishment then....
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Chutt, you better refresh my memory then, because I never died by you this server. The only one I remember was the previous server, where you and I met only once, and you lost your ship. Perhaps it was someone else?
Ooops! I thought it was Hexx who had posted that, my bad. Just with that Lyran avatar you resembled Hexx, now go back to flying Gorn so I wont make the same mistake again ;D
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No torture is being on the same channel as DH and I during a PvP.
Only if Bearslayer was involved as well and calling the fight from that microphone of his :skeptic:
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OK, here's another random sleep-deprived question: what would be the implications of having a server where there were a ton of resupply points but only one or two places per empire where you could purchase ships? E.g. suppose you could resupply in any of your empire's shipping lane hexes, but each empire only had a couple of bases/planets a long way from the front.
(Resupply in shipping lanes would happen by having a 15-second mission that didn't draft anyone, didn't have any combat, and didn't affect dv - it simply restocked your ship, charged you for the supplies, then ended.)
dave
the problem with this as I see it, is that it would make mission times even more a factor. A Gorn, for example can't run mission times as fast as a mirak in general but is less reliant on resupply. If resupply is more readily available the mirak (and other races using lots of expendibles) will gain a further hex flipping advantage. Allowing for resupply of spare parts only would be more fair IMHO.
Now what might be cool is allowing each side to place a few secret "supply depositories" these would do what you said but be very limited in number. The other side would have no idea where they were unless they happened to capture them, or they carefully monitored the news for activity in what would seem to be a non-vital hex. they would also be immune from the risk of destruction unlike a base. These secret supply areas wouldn't allow you to get a new ship but they could repair and restock your currnet one.
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Chutt, you better refresh my memory then, because I never died by you this server. The only one I remember was the previous server, where you and I met only once, and you lost your ship. Perhaps it was someone else?
Ooops! I thought it was Hexx who had posted that, my bad. Just with that Lyran avatar you resembled Hexx, now go back to flying Gorn so I wont make the same mistake again ;D
Odd... I also don't recall having fought you on any recent server.. since I've probably only PVPed about 20 times over the last three you'd think I would..
Perhaps another case of mistaken identity?( I know the tags "quote from dfly" can easily be mistaken "quote from Hexx" )
Or mayhaps the delusions of grandeur you and your drone chucking brethern have always had are interspacing themselves with reality... :P
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Odd... I also don't recall having fought you on any recent server.. since I've probably only PVPed about 20 times over the last three you'd think I would..
I drafted you in mission while Flying a Gorn BF and you were flying a Novahawk. You were in Eastern Klingon spce having just ran away from Die Hard and I drafted you. Your ship ran for the border so fast I never even got a visual on it, I was flying as GDT-Grazz'Tzz, that jar a memory ;) The time before that I think you were flying a L-CWLP vs my Z-NCC but that o9ne was a few servers back, you managed to score some decent internals but ended up being slowed down by overloaded dizzies and then eating some medium speed heavy drones.
Oh and I remember blowing you up once then drafting you on the base where you respawnied in a frigate as well, might have been the same time as the above but i don't exactly remember. That help your memory a bit?
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Didn't we start the whole disengagment rule to counteract the patrol bug and to shore up mission time discrepancies between plasma races and drone races?
The patrol bug is gone, and now we usually allow multiple races accounts for campaigns. People get their good PvP race out for that, and then switch to their flipping race/ship once the threat is gone.
So, what are using it for now? (Somewhat joking here, somewhat not)
A Ace in a CC+ can't kill a newbie in a CF? Chances are he can, and it will get the ace points. Ace vs newbie both in line ships, and the ace should win, earning the ace points.
Not earning points in a specialty ship might make aces fly line ships more, but will it really change the outcome of the points totals when they will most always win line vs line, and probably still win line vs specialty?
I am leaning towards classing CF's as a BCH for SS3, and those will be limited to 3 per side. Carriers will be limited to 2 per side, and 2 DN's (1 CVA will count as 2 DN's). That's 7 "specials" per side, or 14 total on the board at once.
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Noble admin, The Bard of Sto-Vo-Kor begs your indulgence.
To change, or not to change, that is the question,
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous debate,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by a final ruling, end them. To die, to sleep
No more, and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand more ideas
That forum discussion is heir to; 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished to die to sleep! -
To sleep, perchance to dream, ay there's the rub,
For in that sleep of final decision what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this debaters coil
Must give us pause - there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long discussion:
For who would bear the whips and scorns of pre-server opinion,
Th' shiplist's wrongs, the proud pilots contumely,
The pangs of disprized ideas, the rule's lawyers delay,
The insolence of the experienced, and the spurns
That patient merit of th'unworthy takes,
When he himself might his own doubt's quietus make
With a bare bodkin of his own design; who would players bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary server design,
But that the dread of something unpopular,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No admin returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear hearing those criticisms we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action…. Soft you now,
The Storm Season - third of the name, in thy orisons
Be all that thy namesakes are remembered.
----
Do what thou wilt noble admin, and do not let troubles furrow your brown in a way unseemly for a non Klingon. The craft from thine hands has oft graced the Dynaverse working hot crude metal under your hands and forging works of beauty surpassing even the bat'leth for their strength and keeness. Turning thine ear to fair counsel is wisdom, turning thine mouth to speak only the words of others is weakness. Will they strike at your foe in battle with their counsel, or use them to dispatch their own. Trust in thine own heart and in the steel of the mind that it guides.
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I am leaning towards classing CF's as a BCH for SS3, and those will be limited to 3 per side. Carriers will be limited to 2 per side, and 2 DN's (1 CVA will count as 2 DN's). That's 7 "specials" per side, or 14 total on the board at once.
I strongly recomend sticking with the 2/3/4 Points system used in SGO for metal. It works, it's fair, and it doesn't favor any sepcifc race that gets BCHs 10 years before anyone else (ISC and Lyran) or who's BCHs realy suck.
Counting a CF asa BCH is a bit much, counting it as Capital ship in terms of fleeting seems about right.
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I am leaning towards classing CF's as a BCH for SS3, and those will be limited to 3 per side. Carriers will be limited to 2 per side, and 2 DN's (1 CVA will count as 2 DN's). That's 7 "specials" per side, or 14 total on the board at once.
I strongly recomend sticking with the 2/3/4 Points system used in SGO for metal. It works, it's fair, and it doesn't favor any sepcifc race that gets BCHs 10 years before anyone else (ISC and Lyran) or who's BCHs realy suck.
Counting a CF asa BCH is a bit much, counting it as Capital ship in terms of fleeting seems about right.
Heavy Metal rule worked in conjunction with Fleeting rules. Either would be naught without the other. There was more than one control method used, there has to be unless you want cheese running around the map unchecked. We had CF cheese on SG6... and it was a bit much so much there are rules against it next time. Remember, current fleeting rules were designed around the playerbase of 20-30 peeps online at once. Sg6 peaked once at 32 players and on average saw 20 during prime-time hours.
Jeff, if you come up with something else, make it wholly original. ;D Mine's not perfect, but it did work well and while I cant say to use them cuz I havent seen your final proposal, capital ship/fleeting rules are a completely Allice in Wonderland stuff. G/L!
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I am leaning towards classing CF's as a BCH for SS3, and those will be limited to 3 per side. Carriers will be limited to 2 per side, and 2 DN's (1 CVA will count as 2 DN's). That's 7 "specials" per side, or 14 total on the board at once.
I strongly recomend sticking with the 2/3/4 Points system used in SGO for metal. It works, it's fair, and it doesn't favor any sepcifc race that gets BCHs 10 years before anyone else (ISC and Lyran) or who's BCHs realy suck.
Counting a CF asa BCH is a bit much, counting it as Capital ship in terms of fleeting seems about right.
I agree with Diehard here. The capital ship restriction rule from SGO6 seems to work better. You can set the total amount available and let each side figure out how they would like to have those points represented on the server at any one time. On past servers, when their have been an opportunity for 14 capital ships to be flown, they will be. When our current player base is an average of 20 people, 14 seems a large percentage of that.
I would agree that CF classed ships should not be able to fleet with ANY capital ships. Whether you want to make them count against the capital ships points is certainly up to you. In Dizzy's SGO6 rules, these ideas were combined. They don't have to be.
Agave
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Didn't we start the whole disengagment rule to counteract the patrol bug and to shore up mission time discrepancies between plasma races and drone races?
The patrol bug is gone, and now we usually allow multiple races accounts for campaigns. People get their good PvP race out for that, and then switch to their flipping race/ship once the threat is gone.
So, what are using it for now? (Somewhat joking here, somewhat not)
Making PvP worthwhile instead of something people do just for kicks.
With the DR, PvP becomes an asset. Without it being in anything but a flipper is a liability.
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Didn't we start the whole disengagement rule to counteract the patrol bug and to shore up mission time discrepancies between plasma races and drone races?
The patrol bug is gone, and now we usually allow multiple races accounts for campaigns. People get their good PvP race out for that, and then switch to their flipping race/ship once the threat is gone.
So, what are using it for now? (Somewhat joking here, somewhat not)
Making PvP worthwhile instead of something people do just for kicks.
With the DR, PvP becomes an asset. Without it being in anything but a flipper is a liability.
The current disengagement makes it worthwhile because you force someone to not be able to engage in PvP in that hex, leaving you to take the hex, and further your quest to take map vc points.
What I proposed makes PvP worthwhile because you can force the person out, leaving you to take the hex, or win a vc point by killing them. The killed player could then immediately come back and attempt again, giving you the possibility of multiple vc points. If you kill them twice, you've earned 2 pts and lowered the DV twice, furthering your advancement toward a map vc as well. And there is the possibility of more PvP.
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...you can force the person out, leaving you to take the hex, or win a vc point by killing them. The killed player could then immediately come back and attempt again, giving you the possibility of multiple vc points. If you kill them twice, you've earned 2 pts and lowered the DV twice... And there is the possibility of more PvP.
ya thats good.
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The current disengagement makes it worthwhile because you force someone to not be able to engage in PvP in that hex, leaving you to take the hex, and further your quest to take map vc points.
What I proposed makes PvP worthwhile because you can force the person out, leaving you to take the hex, or win a vc point by killing them. The killed player could then immediately come back and attempt again, giving you the possibility of multiple vc points. If you kill them twice, you've earned 2 pts and lowered the DV twice, furthering your advancement toward a map vc as well.
Your point about increasing the possible PvP VC pts in any "hot spot" is valid. What you don't get is the reduction of defenders allowed in the area. If the same pilot keeping engaging you, sure you can increase you PvP pts by killing him over and over. You no longer have the ability to reduce the number of pilots in the area and it becomes a flipping race. Then comes in the discussion, racial differences about mission times, player base for each race, on and on and on..........
In a nutshell, the old Fluf days vs the current train of thought.
Personally I would like to see a server happen that allows for what you are purposing. As expected, not everyone feels that way, and this rule alone may discourage some from flying. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. ;D
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Ya, but we'd see more PvP!
Course, depends on how Jeff uses PvP VC Points. On sg servers they add up and depending on the ratio, you get a planet equivalent VC Point. However, he could easily apply PvP Points toward defensive DV's. Doing so directly would enable an empire to deny their emeny VC's from lost planets. That way you tie in attrition to DV's as we would want them to be.
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You won't see more PvP, you'll see more blowing up of flippers with PvP ships. That's all you're going to get if you take away the time penalty for dying.
The downside is that by making every ship worth something if it dies, you discourage n00bs from trying to stick it out and get better.
This also heavily favors nutters vs casual players. The nutter can afford the multiple losses.
Make metal worth points and specialty ships worth points. A Z-DF should be worth a point imho.
But leave line ships alone. Penalizing a player for losing one, even if it's only one point, is only going to drive people out of them, and discourage the n00bs from learning.
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You won't see more PvP, you'll see more blowing up of flippers with PvP ships. That's all you're going to get if you take away the time penalty for dying.
The downside is that by making every ship worth something if it dies, you discourage n00bs from trying to stick it out and get better.
This also heavily favors nutters vs casual players. The nutter can afford the multiple losses.
Make metal worth points and specialty ships worth points. A Z-DF should be worth a point imho.
But leave line ships alone. Penalizing a player for losing one, even if it's only one point, is only going to drive people out of them, and discourage the n00bs from learning.
Sheesh, I think I'll leave the rules alone as they were in sg6. It seemed to work, although I think halving the deisengagement ban time for line ships would be in order.
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...you can force the person out, leaving you to take the hex, or win a vc point by killing them. The killed player could then immediately come back and attempt again, giving you the possibility of multiple vc points. If you kill them twice, you've earned 2 pts and lowered the DV twice... And there is the possibility of more PvP.
It's an interesting idea, but it would make the situation hard on new players because they would lose VPs for every ship they lose.
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...you can force the person out, leaving you to take the hex, or win a vc point by killing them. The killed player could then immediately come back and attempt again, giving you the possibility of multiple vc points. If you kill them twice, you've earned 2 pts and lowered the DV twice... And there is the possibility of more PvP.
ya thats good.
That all depends on where you stand as per good or not. Remember Plasma ballet anyone? It can take up to a couple hours for a battle, all to get a shift of 1(and a 1 point for kill, if you killed him) just to have him come back an tie you up again for another battle. Even in a shorter battle of say 45 minutes, how many missions could you have run in those 45 minutes? The mirak would have run enough in 1 ship alone to change the DV by 15 or more if left unchecked. Thus my support for DR. I do understand that perhaps DR does not work for all cases, but in hot areas I think it is important.
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You won't see more PvP, you'll see more blowing up of flippers with PvP ships. That's all you're going to get if you take away the time penalty for dying.
The downside is that by making every ship worth something if it dies, you discourage n00bs from trying to stick it out and get better.
This also heavily favors nutters vs casual players. The nutter can afford the multiple losses.
Make metal worth points and specialty ships worth points. A Z-DF should be worth a point imho.
But leave line ships alone. Penalizing a player for losing one, even if it's only one point, is only going to drive people out of them, and discourage the n00bs from learning.
Sheesh, I think I'll leave the rules alone as they were in sg6. It seemed to work, although I think halving the deisengagement ban time for line ships would be in order.
I agree with that.
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You won't see more PvP, you'll see more blowing up of flippers with PvP ships. That's all you're going to get if you take away the time penalty for dying.
Have to disagree with that assessment. I can't imagine that if Die Hard, or Duck, Dfly, Dizzy, Mrougue, Trama Tech, etc., would stay off the front if given the chance to return to a front after losing their ship. They would dive right back into the thick of things with the best PvP combo they could put together looking for a taste of revenge. You might have flippers coming back again, but you'd certainly have the PvP hos banging on the door as well.
If the flippers want to take a planet they would no longer have a clear run once the opposing PvP guys were knocked out of the area, and any side wanting to take a planet would have to be willing to pay a PvP price for doing so. Coordination between flippers and PvPers would have to be increased greatly for a decent chance of sucess. The kind of precise coordination that the KATS and KOTHS prided ourselves on, and that the KBF ran to perfection under Chancellor Dogmatix in the old days.
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That all depends on where you stand as per good or not. Remember Plasma ballet anyone? It can take up to a couple hours for a battle, all to get a shift of 1(and a 1 point for kill, if you killed him) just to have him come back an tie you up again for another battle. Even in a shorter battle of say 45 minutes, how many missions could you have run in those 45 minutes? The mirak would have run enough in 1 ship alone to change the DV by 15 or more if left unchecked. Thus my support for DR. I do understand that perhaps DR does not work for all cases, but in hot areas I think it is important.
That is a very valid point and one that always has made me in favor of granting the plasma races basic Pf tenders and INTs from the start of eaarly era. This gives them a valid hexflipping option that wouldn't be a big PvP threat, kinda like a Kzin DF. They could run the risk of flying these boats on the front if they wanted to hexflip but would run the PvP risk that the DF does. Something similar might be needed for some other races as well. The mission times don't have to equal that of a droner, (and really shouldn't be, as these races have some advantages in other areas) but should be significant enough to allow for a hexflipper option to be viable for these races. Maybe they can't break the 2 minute mark, but they could threaten the 3 minute one.
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You won't see more PvP, you'll see more blowing up of flippers with PvP ships. That's all you're going to get if you take away the time penalty for dying.
Have to disagree with that assessment. I can't imagine that if Die Hard, or Duck, Dfly, Dizzy, Mrougue, Trama Tech, etc., would stay off the front if given the chance to return to a front after losing their ship. They would dive right back into the thick of things with the best PvP combo they could put together looking for a taste of revenge. You might have flippers coming back again, but you'd certainly have the PvP hos banging on the door as well.
If the flippers want to take a planet they would no longer have a clear run once the opposing PvP guys were knocked out of the area, and any side wanting to take a planet would have to be willing to pay a PvP price for doing so. Coordination between flippers and PvPers would have to be increased greatly for a decent chance of sucess. The kind of precise coordination that the KATS and KOTHS prided ourselves on, and that the KBF ran to perfection under Chancellor Dogmatix in the old days.
Sure they would, and so would I. But it wouldn't happen that often compared to you or me or Soreyes getting popped in a DF and coming right back in to run another half dozen missions before getting caught again.
Face it, point losses never discouraged anybody. Look at all the battlecruiser kills on SS2.
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When I hear that I think of how fun that cheese fest server must have been.
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When I hear that I think of how fun that cheese fest server must have been.
IMHO only Storm Season I was a better server than Storm Season II ;)
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...you can force the person out, leaving you to take the hex, or win a vc point by killing them. The killed player could then immediately come back and attempt again, giving you the possibility of multiple vc points. If you kill them twice, you've earned 2 pts and lowered the DV twice... And there is the possibility of more PvP.
It's an interesting idea, but it would make the situation hard on new players because they would lose VPs for every ship they lose.
It's also probably hard on new players watching a VP hex go to the enemy because they are no longer allowed to be defending that hex because they are banned from it.....
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...you can force the person out, leaving you to take the hex, or win a vc point by killing them. The killed player could then immediately come back and attempt again, giving you the possibility of multiple vc points. If you kill them twice, you've earned 2 pts and lowered the DV twice... And there is the possibility of more PvP.
ya thats good.
That all depends on where you stand as per good or not. Remember Plasma ballet anyone? It can take up to a couple hours for a battle, all to get a shift of 1(and a 1 point for kill, if you killed him) just to have him come back an tie you up again for another battle. Even in a shorter battle of say 45 minutes, how many missions could you have run in those 45 minutes? The mirak would have run enough in 1 ship alone to change the DV by 15 or more if left unchecked. Thus my support for DR. I do understand that perhaps DR does not work for all cases, but in hot areas I think it is important.
God forbid they tie you up for MORE PvP ;)
Say the Mirak pilot kils you in a Lyran/Rom/Gorn ship and now you are forced out of that hex for 30/60 minutes. Now they can flip to their hearts desire. If you were allowed to get a ship more capable of drone defense (or remember not to chase a droner ;) ), and get back in there and attempt to kill them, you are tying them up from thier flipping festivals. If you killed the Mirak the first time, he may get into a more PvP based ship and make the next battle more interesting. If they lose again, chances are they wont come right back again, leaving you to work the hex anyway.....
What it boils down to is that I've seen this on the last few servers where multiple accounts are permitted. People fly the PvP races until they force the other guys out or they log off, and then they get in their flipper race ships and start chewing up space, which to me is pretty cheesy, and not in the true spirit of the original disengagement rule.
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When I hear that I think of how fun that cheese fest server must have been.
IMHO only Storm Season I was a better server than Storm Season II ;)
Please Chuut, you'll make me blush.....not in front of the Klingons ;)
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Make metal worth points and specialty ships worth points. A Z-DF should be worth a point imho.
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: ;D
In a lot of ways I kind of agree with making a Z-DF worth a point. But then again having a little ol Frigit worth a point seems a little funny. ;)
So what is a Z-DWD going to be worth? 2 points or 1 point. All it is, is a Z-DF with some shealding ;D
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...you can force the person out, leaving you to take the hex, or win a vc point by killing them. The killed player could then immediately come back and attempt again, giving you the possibility of multiple vc points. If you kill them twice, you've earned 2 pts and lowered the DV twice... And there is the possibility of more PvP.
It's an interesting idea, but it would make the situation hard on new players because they would lose VPs for every ship they lose.
It's also probably hard on new players watching a VP hex go to the enemy because they are no longer allowed to be defending that hex because they are banned from it.....
I would consider losing VCs due to ship losses a major factor in incentizing the lesser PvP skilled player to avoid more PvP than would be case if there is no VC loss for losing a line ship.
What it boils down to is that I've seen this on the last few servers where multiple accounts are permitted. People fly the PvP races until they force the other guys out or they log off, and then they get in their flipper race ships and start chewing up space, which to me is pretty cheesy, and not in the true spirit of the original disengagement rule.
Using PvP ships and the DR rules to clear out space for the follow-up hex flipper units is following fundamental military tactics. Basically, it follows the tactics used by the German Army in 1918 to break the trench warfare deadlock. They setup stormtrooper commando units (ie. PvPers) to eliminate the enemy strongpoints and force the enemy into a general retreat while avoiding becoming bogged down in taking out all pockets of enemy resistance. Then, the 2nd echelon of regular army units (ie. hex flippers) would follow and mop up the remaining enemy resistance (ie. hex flippers whittle down the enemy DVs to take the hex) in order to consolidate the gains (ie. max out the DVs of the taken hexes).
The term Stormtrooper refers to special military troops which were formed in the last year of World War I as the German army developed new methods of attacking enemy trenches, called "infiltration tactics". Men trained in these methods were known as in German as Sturmmann (literally "storm man" but usually translated as Stormtrooper), formed into companies of Sturmtruppen (Storm Troops). Other armies have used the term "assault troops", "shock troops" or fire teams for specialist soldiers who perform the infiltration tasks of stormtroopers.
With the withdrawal of Russia from World War I, the Germans were able to reinforce the Western Front with troops from the Eastern Front. This allowed them to take units out of the line and train in Hutier tactics (after Oskar von Hutier) to infiltrate and take trenches.
The methods developed to assault trenches during World War I before 1918 usually started with a lengthy artillery barrage all along the line followed by an assault from massed lines of infantry. Hutier suggested an alternate approach which consisted of these basic steps, combining some previous and some new attacks in a complex strategy:
A short artillery bombardment, featuring heavy shells mixed with numerous poison gas projectiles would concentrate on neutralizing the enemy front lines, but not to destroy them.
Under a creeping barrage, German shock troops (Sturmbatallione) would move forward and infiltrate the Allied defenses at previously identified weak points. They would avoid combat whenever possible and attempt to destroy or capture enemy headquarters and artillery strongpoints.
After the shock troops had done their job, German Army units, heavily equipped with machine guns, mortars and flamethrowers, would make heavy attacks along narrow fronts against any Allied strongpoints the shock troops missed. When the artillery was in place, officers could direct the fire wherever it was needed to accelerate the breakthrough.
In the last stage of the assault, regular infantry would mop up any remaining Allied resistance.
The new assault methods involved men rushing forwards in small groups using whatever cover was available and laying down covering fire for other groups in the same unit as they moved forwards. The new tactics, which were intended to achieve tactical surprise, were to attack the weakest parts of an enemy's line, bypass his strongpoints and to abandon the futile attempt to have a grand and detailed plan of operations controlled from afar. Instead, junior leaders could exercise initiative on the spot. Any enemy strong points which had not been over-run by stormtroopers could be attacked by second echelon troops following the stormtroopers.
On March 21, 1918 Germany launched a major offensive, "Operation Michael", against British and Commonwealth forces, using the new methods and tactics. Four successive German offensives followed, that of May 27 and for the first time in 4 years the stalemate of trench warfare was broken. However the German advance had stalled by July and the Allies began their Hundred Days Offensive. Ironically, General Hutier was too cautious in using his troops and if he had spent less time consolidating his gains he could have broken far enough through the Allied line to win the war.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper
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What it boils down to is that I've seen this on the last few servers where multiple accounts are permitted. People fly the PvP races until they force the other guys out or they log off, and then they get in their flipper race ships and start chewing up space, which to me is pretty cheesy, and not in the true spirit of the original disengagement rule.
The original idea (Fluf's) was that a PvP group would go in and clear a hex so flippers could run solos on top of them. Clearing an area of bad guys and bringing in the flippers is pretty consistent with that.
As a practical matter it's pretty much impossible to totally remove a determined enemy presence from a front, even with the radius rule, unless they have a severe numbers problem (or decide to go somewhere else).
In my experience most pilots fly either a PvP ship or a flipper and stick to it. There are a few that switch, myself included. I can say for my part that as long as I know the DR is working and effective I won't switch to a flipper unless the area is totally clear of bad guys. Again, usually that only happens if they are working on a different front, or are numerically challenged.
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Make metal worth points and specialty ships worth points. A Z-DF should be worth a point imho.
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: ;D
In a lot of ways I kind of agree with making a Z-DF worth a point. But then again having a little ol Frigit worth a point seems a little funny. ;)
So what is a Z-DWD going to be worth? 2 points or 1 point. All it is, is a Z-DF with some shealding ;D
I was under the impression that a droner was 'the hex flipper' and the heavier 'energy' based ships we're the PvP'ers. Just a bit confused is all as I may be misusing my droner.
The whole discussion was about 'levelling' the playfield for noobs I just thought the droners would be reclassed into specialty ships as these little droners can take down cap ships if properly flown, and they favor inexperienced players.
I'm Soooooo confused.
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Actually Malak the only way a droner can beat a line ship is if the line ship makes a mistake. No one is ever going to learn PvP flying around in a droner.
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Actually Malak the only way a droner can beat a line ship is if the line ship makes a mistake. No one is ever going to learn PvP flying around in a droner.
Tell that to Khan... :P ;D
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I saw that film. There were mistakes. Small ones, but with a droner that's all you need.
He did have an asteroid base which helped him out quite a bit.
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What it boils down to is that I've seen this on the last few servers where multiple accounts are permitted. People fly the PvP races until they force the other guys out or they log off, and then they get in their flipper race ships and start chewing up space, which to me is pretty cheesy, and not in the true spirit of the original disengagement rule.
So let's have a rule that says you can only have accounts for 1 race for the next server.
That would be cool. ;D
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What it boils down to is that I've seen this on the last few servers where multiple accounts are permitted. People fly the PvP races until they force the other guys out or they log off, and then they get in their flipper race ships and start chewing up space, which to me is pretty cheesy, and not in the true spirit of the original disengagement rule.
So let's have a rule that says you can only have accounts for 1 race for the next server.
That would be cool. ;D
BAN!!!
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What it boils down to is that I've seen this on the last few servers where multiple accounts are permitted. People fly the PvP races until they force the other guys out or they log off, and then they get in their flipper race ships and start chewing up space, which to me is pretty cheesy, and not in the true spirit of the original disengagement rule.
So let's have a rule that says you can only have accounts for 1 race for the next server.
That would be cool. ;D
What about 1 race per day?
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What it boils down to is that I've seen this on the last few servers where multiple accounts are permitted. People fly the PvP races until they force the other guys out or they log off, and then they get in their flipper race ships and start chewing up space, which to me is pretty cheesy, and not in the true spirit of the original disengagement rule.
So let's have a rule that says you can only have accounts for 1 race for the next server.
That would be cool. ;D
BAN!!!
Admittedly some players may be upset they can't continually switch to the best PVP ships with teh best powercurves
from year to year, but I think they'd be the same ones who feel it takes skill to chase down players using DNL's
And I can't think of anyone in our community that's like that...
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What it boils down to is that I've seen this on the last few servers where multiple accounts are permitted. People fly the PvP races until they force the other guys out or they log off, and then they get in their flipper race ships and start chewing up space, which to me is pretty cheesy, and not in the true spirit of the original disengagement rule.
So let's have a rule that says you can only have accounts for 1 race for the next server.
That would be cool. ;D
BAN!!!
Admittedly some players may be upset they can't continually switch to the best PVP ships with teh best powercurves
from year to year, but I think they'd be the same ones who feel it takes skill to chase down players using DNL's
And I can't think of anyone in our community that's like that...
You are so short-sighted sometimes it astonishes me. Have you thought about what happens when the race you choose has their only resupply point WAYYYYYYYYYy far away from the front and all your friends in the other races with resupply near the front lines are having fun but you?
You cant limit a player to one race like we did when 50+ peeps were on the server. These days 20 peeps fill in the races that dont get played or need to depending on where the fighting is. Im not saying it cant be done... If you have a circular map and put all the races resupply points equadistant from the center area where all the fighting takes place then it's not a problem.
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What it boils down to is that I've seen this on the last few servers where multiple accounts are permitted. People fly the PvP races until they force the other guys out or they log off, and then they get in their flipper race ships and start chewing up space, which to me is pretty cheesy, and not in the true spirit of the original disengagement rule.
So let's have a rule that says you can only have accounts for 1 race for the next server.
That would be cool. ;D
Hmmm...
ME = long time PVP vet but nOOb Dynaverse flyer. My first few days I flew my beloved Gorn race and made every mistake in the book...or out of it. I flew a "fleet" of little ships and took ALien Encounter...etc etc etc... By day three i was flying a Gorn FF. Now if you know anyting about the Gorn FF+ ... well ...
:( errrrrrrr
Now had I not been able to switch to Hydran I think I would have kissed this server off and gone back to Gamespy.
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Have you thought about what happens when the race you choose has their only resupply point WAYYYYYYYYYy far away from the front and all your friends in the other races with resupply near the front lines are having fun but you?
First- the action is always where Hexx is.
Second- I find it invigorating to actually have to plan my battles ,unlike thos who just use super ships with 20 spares to run down the bad guy and need resupply all the time.
(Of course no one like that here anymore)
Third - I have no friends, only people who can shoot &tbomb me and people who can only tbomb me.
Seriously though- it was an idea, half in jest (I know I'd actually like to see it, but most people wouldn't)
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Hmmm...
ME = long time PVP vet but nOOb Dynaverse flyer. My first few days I flew my beloved Gorn race and made every mistake in the book...or out of it. I flew a "fleet" of little ships and took ALien Encounter...etc etc etc... By day three i was flying a Gorn FF. Now if you know anyting about the Gorn FF+ ... well ...
:( errrrrrrr
Now had I not been able to switch to Hydran I think I would have kissed this server off and gone back to Gamespy.
Well at some point one has to realize certain missions work better with certain races ;D
AE is simple if you have a droner,
Doable as a Lyran (presumably about the same as Hydran)
And (I'd assume) tougher if you are using plasma (until fighters/PF's of course)
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And (I'd assume) tougher if you are using plasma (until fighters/PF's of course)
Not if your a Romulan. Cloak and fire, Cloak and fire.
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And (I'd assume) tougher if you are using plasma (until fighters/PF's of course)
Not if your a Romulan. Cloak and fire, Cloak and fire.
Thats another thing that takes getting used too:
Traditionally the shields drop just before the cloaking device engages, BUT in SFC the shields appear around a cloaked ship. Additionally according to SFB rules- if you have and maintain a sensor lock on a ship that cloaked, you can tractor it, AND board it.
Just a few of the weirdness that made me stop flying Rommie ships.
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why not keep the time constraints ie: half hour if u r killed or 1 hour if you are run out,but if you want to go back in imediately then you can only take a certain size ship in and only as the race you were killed in or run out of in .if you get killed or run out again,the clock starts over again plus as a additional penalty,the second time and each subsequet time there after,each player killed or run out of this hex further penalized .5 vc point per palyer
after having been killed or chased out in whatever combo say dread and 2 heavies then the biggest combo that team can bring in is 1 heavy,1 lite and 1 frig and if they get killed or chased out in, that time constraints start from beginning again(plus they also loose .5 vc points per player that got killed or chased out in)and if they want to go back in again,they must further reduce ship class size again until down to 3 frigates and again risk loosing .5 vc points per player/time.in addition,they would not be able to change races to adapt to ship size.whatever race they initially went in,is the race they would have to pick their next ship from if they wanted to go back in imediately.One other penalty,whoever had the biggest ship,must take the smallest ship for the next incursion
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OK, lets keep it simpel and lets have fun, this was set up to do two things 1. more PVP at a lower cost, and 2.to up the fun factor by several points
so lets have fun ;D
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OK, lets keep it simpel and lets have fun, this was set up to do two things 1. more PVP at a lower cost, and 2.to up the fun factor by several points
so lets have fun ;D
how much simpler can it be...... all players run out or killed in a hex of contention,if they want to go back in imediately must keep same race,must reduce shipsize(of the largest ship) plus takes a penalty of .5 vc points per player if they are either killed or run out.this keeps(if u risk it) a hot and heavy area for the pvp players looking for matches while risking a small penalty which may or maynot added up to something significant when all points are added up at end of each week of a server,or for the whole ball of wax.If you don't want to risk this....wait till your initial penalty(time and or vc point if killed) is over.....sounds simple to me
short and simple-----> move on if u r chased/killed in that hex OR risk penalty starting over for second infringement and a .5 VC point if you are either run out or killed in the same hex = SIMPLE
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Umm.... right...
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Umm.... right...
explain how this would be any worse than what has already been proposed
if u go in again .....run out or killed u lose .5 vc's per player
biggest ship in fleet goes down 1 class in that hex dread to heavy heavy to lite lite to frig (after first kill or run out) and only if u want to go imediately back into a hex u were run out of or killed in.....works for winging and for single player ......what am i missing hmmmmmmmm no shortage of players willing to claim the vc....................dreads and heavies look diferent,heavies and lites look diferent lites and frigs look diferent,so unless some one is dishonourable and takes in the ship they fought with initially seems easy enough to diferentiate between classes of ships please explain the how this is complicated?????
it keeps the rules,that time and again seem to show up in server after server,while allowing PvP PLAYERS continual action plus adds an element of risk(which is the adrenalin that drives us all),if you want to stay in a heavily fought over hex
so besides 'lets keep it simple or Ummm....right..... sooooo, please give a brief discription on what i am proposing as being to complicated????
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One word... Shipyard.
If you need to drop a class size, you automaticly are making them wait at least one turn if not more.
I have always been a fan of a simple rule.
If you get run out, you need to come back with another (more) wing mate(s).
Plain & simple. If you are alone on the server, you better find somewhere else to work....
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One word... Shipyard.
If you need to drop a class size, you automaticly are making them wait at least one turn if not more.
I have always been a fan of a simple rule.
If you get run out, you need to come back with another (more) wing mate(s).
Plain & simple. If you are alone on the server, you better find somewhere else to work....
well......4 minutes maybe even 8 minutes,seems better than 30 minutes or 60 minutes..........
OCI when fixed for all servers, will eliminate 4 to 8 minutes
the point was to make this challenging without over complicating it with rules
my opinion only so far,but i don't believe you have shown where my suggestion is too complicated
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More complicated than mine. ;)