Topic: Unbalanced ships in the SG3 shiplist

[The_Infiltrator]

Seems that most of this has to do with the DF. What about the DWL and other ships as shown above? Has anyone tried the normal kzinti frigate, the FFK, and seen what that is like?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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Dogmatix wrote:


Except for the fact that there is not any "Shiplist Council" or any organized group of people anywhere in this game creating shiplists and there hasn't been for some time.  I wonder how many MORE times I have to say that before even the most thick-headed of you finally get it.  Kick yourselves in the arse...it will do more good.  

Each and every shiplist that has EVER been used in this game, aside from the default shiplist (and perhaps even that), is the work of ONE individual on his own.  They do it to be creative and to offer some variety.  Sometimes, they don't match SFB!  OH MY!

SFC is not SFB.  It's an adaptation of SFB.  SFB should be used as a reasonable guideline for SFC.  Not a freaking end-all, be-all rulebook.  SFB cannon is a good place to start when looking for idea on how things should work or what should exist.  It seems to me that there's plenty of room to be creative beyond SFB cannon.

Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  

Who cares? Nice job of missing the point entirely and redirecting onto your own political agenda...

Did you copy and paste part of that from one of Nanner's old posts?

Oh and by the way Mr. "I hate FA disruptor boats and don't care about SFB", the fleet you claim to represent was started by an IC beta tester who was a stickler for SFB canon - and I'll bet he knew how to spell "canon" too.

Bite me, you half-breed petaQ!

D6
sole surviving Klingon Black Fleet founding member
   

Bah!

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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Nice comment on kid gloves, Dog. I liked that

   

Heh....I thought you might.    


Looking forward to to these Dizzians...  



 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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Second, a few have mentioned 'BPV' issues with ship cost relative to their loadout or configurations... Basically, Taldren tied too many things to BPV to really get it to work for any specific use. The only thing I have managed to use BPV for in SG3 (and I suspect all future servers will follow suit) is use it to match up AI and for shiploss. Anything else is irrelevant. So ALL BPV's have been altered in some form or fashion. GS or GZ players may see a need for BPV, but I say pick a race, class and the number of ships and lets leave the BPV at 9999...

   

<snip>


When comparing these BPV's to their SFB counterparts, I found that the Orion ship values had all been inflated by not just a bit, but quite a lot. Defence platforms in SFB only have a BPV of 20, Orion Slaver's around 60, and so on, but no changes have been made to them between SFB to SFC. Arguments aside that SFC is not SFB, it is playtesting here in SFC that supports the SFB BPV paradigm, and as a rule of thumb, where this is deviated from should start alarm bells ringing and alert us to the fact that we are likely to have a problem somewhere if it is ignored. Given that SFC is NOT SFB, reinforces the argument that even more attention and careful scrutiny be given to the BPV of ships and bases and anything else in the game, in order to ensure we don't upset the applecart.
 

Yes...for any of us who have actually flown as pirates over on the OP Dyna, we're well aware of the inflated BPVs of pirate ships.  In fact, they often have BPVs that place them one class above their "true" combat level, in my opinion.  On Rooks Tavern 3, this problem was mitigated by the Admins lowering the BPV of all pirate ships and bases rather substantially.  Even with these deductions, it is usually the case that a pirate light cruiser can stand toe-to-toe with an empire light cruiser, but the AI matching problem was at least ameliorated.

[Kortez]

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Seems that most of this has to do with the DF. What about the DWL and other ships as shown above? Has anyone tried the normal kzinti frigate, the FFK, and seen what that is like?  

Have you seen Miraki shiplists?  We get very few ships pilots feel they can fly with any chance for success.  Nobody is going to try the FFK, the FF, the FH, unless they are FORCED to fly them, due to mission loss and lack of prestige.

 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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Dogmatix wrote:


Except for the fact that there is not any "Shiplist Council" or any organized group of people anywhere in this game creating shiplists and there hasn't been for some time.  I wonder how many MORE times I have to say that before even the most thick-headed of you finally get it.  Kick yourselves in the arse...it will do more good.  

Each and every shiplist that has EVER been used in this game, aside from the default shiplist (and perhaps even that), is the work of ONE individual on his own.  They do it to be creative and to offer some variety.  Sometimes, they don't match SFB!  OH MY!

SFC is not SFB.  It's an adaptation of SFB.  SFB should be used as a reasonable guideline for SFC.  Not a freaking end-all, be-all rulebook.  SFB cannon is a good place to start when looking for idea on how things should work or what should exist.  It seems to me that there's plenty of room to be creative beyond SFB cannon.

Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  

Who cares? Nice job of missing the point entirely and redirecting onto your own political agenda...

Did you copy and paste part of that from one of Nanner's old posts?

Oh and by the way Mr. "I hate FA disruptor boats and don't care about SFB", the fleet you claim to represent was started by an IC beta tester who was a stickler for SFB canon - and I'll bet he knew how to spell "canon" too.

Bite me, you half-breed petaQ!

D6
sole surviving Klingon Black Fleet founding member
   

You're a funny guy, D....especially when you talk about missing points.  


I do care about SFB.  I come from SFB.  I play this game because it is so much like SFB.  I'm just saying that SFB need not be the final arbiter when it comes to issues that arise and that it's okay to step outside that box from time to time.


I know and respect the people you're talking about.  They brought me into this fleet.  As for the rest of your cracks on me, well...whatever.  


If you have a problem with the way I "represent" then maybe you ought to get me tossed, eh?  


 

[Sfaret]

The true test of these ships will be in the play. The Tholains traditionally where not a true power race. They managed to just hold their own. Thier ships where very defensive in nature.  If the Tholians start overunning everone else then we know there is a balance issue.

Also has the conomies been able to be added to the servers? For instances the Tholians where not able to produce much in the way of ships due to limited economy and building capability. Will this be simuated in the server?

S'faret

[Dan]

Actually their ships aren't defensive. THeir tactics are. There is a considerable difference between the two.

[Sfaret]

Sorry Dan, you are correct. Their situation and economics where the most hindering factor for them. If I recall though where not their early ships all based of a police ship design. Thus making them inferior to the other races for the most part. It seems the only real advantage they had was the web since it allow them enormous control over movement in the battle.

S'faret

[Karnak]

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As an example, (I don't know if Dizzy is using the mission or not, he hasn't asked me for the completed version as yet), I wrote a Pirate Base Assault

We already have a misson-specific uber-hard Pirate Base mission done up for SG3 but, if you are interested in using yours in SG3,  email me this mission with the original mission specs.  and I'll take a look at it.  I'll need it by tomorrow at the latest if it has a chance of making SG3 production run.

[Dan]

your not honestly gonig to put up the non-testing server that soon are you? Hardly anything has been tested.

[Karnak]

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 I dont care what kinda drones you have on it. I wouldnt even want to try a MDC+ at over 160 BPV now. Cant imagine drawing 3 dreads in with that!  

No Karnak mission will spawn a DN AI.  I made the max ship class limit to be the Heavy BC class in all my missions.  In many cases, the secondary ship class max. limit is Light Cruiser.  A MDC+ will simply spawn a decent BC enemy AI.  We can also control whether the enemy AI can be a carrier or not. I made sure that you are never facing multiple carriers from any one enemy AI team.  

[Sten]

Dizzy,

I managed to put some testing time in this wekend. From a Lyran standpoint the mission matching seems to be okay so far. If anything maybe alittle to light. Considering I couldn't remember what key did what. I still managed to win 99% of my missions in the CWP I started with and am now running around in a  CWLP.

Worst mission matching I hit was a Mirak Carrier I haven't seen before, a BCH, a horde of DF frigates versus my CWLP a DWLP and a Klingon D-5 it wasn't pretty.

So so far on the Lyran side lookos okay to me.

[Kortez]

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 I dont care what kinda drones you have on it. I wouldnt even want to try a MDC+ at over 160 BPV now. Cant imagine drawing 3 dreads in with that!  

No Karnak mission will spawn a DN AI.  I made the max ship class limit to be the Heavy BC class in all my missions.  In many cases, the secondary ship class max. limit is Light Cruiser.  A MDC+ will simply spawn a decent BC enemy AI.  We can also control whether the enemy AI can be a carrier or not. I made sure that you are never facing multiple carriers from any one enemy AI team.  

Be that as it may, the bumps to the drone ships are brutal.  The prices are not reduced, we don't get automatic replenishment of drones, drones are the easiest heavy weapon to defend against, and basically the Mirak are totally screwed now.
 

[Dizzy]

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 I dont care what kinda drones you have on it. I wouldnt even want to try a MDC+ at over 160 BPV now. Cant imagine drawing 3 dreads in with that!  

No Karnak mission will spawn a DN AI.  I made the max ship class limit to be the Heavy BC class in all my missions.  In many cases, the secondary ship class max. limit is Light Cruiser.  A MDC+ will simply spawn a decent BC enemy AI.  We can also control whether the enemy AI can be a carrier or not. I made sure that you are never facing multiple carriers from any one enemy AI team.  

Be that as it may, the bumps to the drone ships are brutal.  The prices are not reduced, we don't get automatic replenishment of drones, drones are the easiest heavy weapon to defend against, and basically the Mirak are totally screwed now.
 

Bombardment ships were not allowed to be flown solo on AOTK? I think I remember reading somewhere about the stringent CnC...

Anyways, the mirak wont be screwed... noone is getting screwed.  This is still a test server.  Besides, only Bombardment ships have been boosted to test AI draws, not the entire Mirak race... and bumping a bombardment ship or 2 doesnt screw anyone. Carriers have had a boost to include their fighters... None of this is new. I care about your opinion kortez, so keep it comming, just know that right now, this perception of the server isnt how it will be played out...
 
Read the bpv bump thread. It explains this more.

 

[DH123]

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Bombardment ships were not allowed to be flown solo on AOTK? I think I remember reading somewhere about the stringent CnC...


 

Solo Bombardment ships were permitted on AOTK.  Solo Escorts were not.

What CnC rules are being used?  

[TOCXOBearslayer]

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Federation:

FEDERATION PLAYERS HAVE BE BE AWARE THAT THEY CANNOT BUY ORION SHIPS.

The ADR "Andor"

This ship is so unbalanced it's not funny. 8 photon torpedoes and 6 ph-1s on light cruiser hull with 37+ power. I'd recommend it be totally removed or at the very least heavily modified. If ship is retained remove all but the FH phasers and remove the aft torpedeos. Increase movement cost to 1 but retain current power setup to represent the overloaded hull. In SFB this ship would have a single die shock rating and roll any time it fired more than 4 torpedoes.
 

Here are the FASA stats on the Andor ....

I already told Dizzy about this... and gave him my opinions in a previous thread that it was too powerful.  My suggestions were to drop shield strength, drop the phaser suite to Ph3's (and reduce to 2 phasers) and leave the rest alone.  

Dizzy replied that we will see how it works before any changes are made.

Hopefully, he will change it to be more like the FASA config....

In that configuration, It is an excellent anti-PF/plasma cruiser but it will never survive against Fighters and drones.

IIRC, Dizzy used the stats that I also DL'd from somewhere with FASA conversion and for the most part, they were way out of touch with reality.  If you care to look at them... email me, I will send them.

Here is the thread I am speaking about.... Andor & Chandley stats