Topic: BPV bumps for drone ships?? (Read 8957 times)

Kortez · « **on:** May 19, 2003, 09:14:47 am »

Dizzy,

What is the deal with the large BPV bumps for drone ships?

SSCF Hooch · « **Reply #1 on:** May 19, 2003, 09:21:08 am »

What he said...<grumble>

Kortez · « **Reply #2 on:** May 19, 2003, 09:26:38 am »

A DF+ goes from 80 to 127. We still pay for drones.

KOTH-Steel Claw · « **Reply #3 on:** May 19, 2003, 09:44:16 am »

Quote:

What is the deal with the large BPV bumps for drone ships?

Good question.

Matsukasi · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2003, 11:02:14 am »

Just a snippet from the SG3 shiplist, for your amusement --

Klink D5D --- was 116 , now a whopping 162

Mirak DWD --- was 86 , now 111

Mirak MDC+ --- was 119 , now an unbelievable 165

No sign of drones being free, or upgraded drones being cheap either.

What gives?

EDIT :

Mirak BCH actually went DOWN 7 BPV... uhh.... I'm confused now...

Toten · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2003, 11:13:51 am »

didnt see any commando ships for hte klingons either

Dizzy · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2003, 03:08:56 pm »

Quote:

Dizzy,

What is the deal with the large BPV bumps for drone ships?

Scipio and I touched off on this topic. The BPV bump is testing AI matchups.

Now, things arnt as they once were... These missions are harder and the pp rewards lower. So the same ole sam ole doesnt apply anymore.

Changes:

Admiral difficulty level will drop from 1.2 to 0.9 or 1.0.

The Drone and supply costs will be brought down along with fighter and PF costs to mitigate lower pp awards in missions.

The AI matchups is the only thing the BPV deals with on this server. Thats it. So you are testing them so to speak.

Realistically, a Mirak DF is a support ship. It isnt designed to patrol the front tlines or penetrate deep into enemy trerritory. As such, it shouldnt be used as a front line ship in engagements with 3+ enemy ships w/o backup or escort.

I mean... you want to have fun, but at the same time, there are control factors that need balancing.

So I ask you, what would you do if you were me?

And WS... the T-NVL has a 30 bpv boost. The combat effectiveness of this ship is extremely low... The Fighters it carries arnt as effective as Klink fighters... plz bear this in mind, and again, BPV isnt a measure so much as to the combat equality of other ships, but acts ONLY as a control factor for AI ship draws...

Keep in mind, this is a test... All of this will change somewhat...

Kortez · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2003, 03:16:20 pm »

First, isn't the price of the ship affected by its BPV? Won't all these drone ships become more expensive?

Second, the matchups are very disturbing. We are getting rocked in ships which have been drawing much greater classes of ships. Having to reduce the mission difficulty so low is something we have not done recently. Instead, we've raised it to make it more challenging. Because of the very matchups we have to ease up on the mission difficulty. That alone should say something about this test.

Third, there is not that much of a choice for a Mirak. Our other frigates are very bad, and they will not work in a real fight, AI or human. We use DFs because they are one of our few tolerable ships, even with the expanded shiplist. The translation from SFB to SFC is not entirely smooth. For example, I call witness to your explanation about Tholian vessels as not being SFB but Dizzian. SFB would only really work in SFB. Also we won't be able to fly fleets of three DFs. As it stands now, people flying Mirak barely can make any pp at all, and, yes, I note your promise to lower prices and to reduce mission difficulty. Still, we won't get automatic replensiment of drones.

The Mirak have so little in terms of energy weapons that messing with the drones makes it quite the hardship on this race. Please consider these factors in your final shiplist.

Kroma_BaSyl · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2003, 03:52:57 pm »

Also, the Tender BPV is really high, which if talking about late era PFs might be cool, but in mid AI will be a bitch.

warsears · « **Reply #12 on:** May 19, 2003, 09:44:27 pm »

you gutted the AD5 and bumped the BPV damn Dizzy im starting to think you dont care much for drone races. I just cant wait to see what else you have done.

The_Infiltrator · « **Reply #13 on:** May 19, 2003, 11:11:20 pm »

I'd not be so quick to condemn drone specality ship bumps. However, line vessels (MCC, CM, DWL) need to stay normal. A quick look by myself notes that the standard Kzinti frigate, the FFK, has more shields and 1 more point of power for the loss of 2 drone racks and the addtion of an additional disruptor. It also exchanges a ph-3 for a ph-1.

You can't beat the AI with that? I think I can and I can't even fire a drone in the right direction. The DD also seems to be available, as well as the DDV. Both don't suck too badly IIRC. The DD seems to compare favorably to the DD I usually use, or at least it's close.

I don't get it.

KATChuutRitt · « **Reply #14 on:** May 19, 2003, 11:22:08 pm »

Well it would be similar to putting a big BPV bump on other non-standard line ships like Romulan Kestrels and Federation Plasma variants. If you want to restrict them they should be made more rare or expensive not something to affect their mission matching. Now a 10-15% bpv bump might be ok if drones were automatically maxed out after every mission, but paying for loadouts when 1/2 the time you have a min load just doesn't seem reasonable. Drone defenses don't have to be resupplied after all. And with the emergence of more multiple ship missions, the overlapping drone defenses reduces the effectiveness of the Mirak ships even more. With stock missions an experiment might be interesting, but with the new missions it just doesn't sit right with me.

Rob Cole · « **Reply #15 on:** May 19, 2003, 11:36:17 pm »

Wow Dizzy,are you that afraid of the Klinks? I just looked at some of the ship changes ya have made and things are kinda fishy.

It is bad enough our side will be out numbered but you have to cripple us as well?????

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #16 on:** May 19, 2003, 11:44:55 pm »

Cazn someone sent me just the shiplist. I don't wanna fiutz with a buggy download, but I do wanna see what all the hubbub is about....heheh.

Rob Cole · « **Reply #19 on:** May 19, 2003, 11:58:53 pm »

BAH!
I stand by my post till proven wrong!

Dizzy · « **Reply #20 on:** May 20, 2003, 12:09:30 am »

Fluff here is the breakdown of the shiplist for the ship type and the increase or decrease in BPV:

bc -14
bc+ -7
bch -18
bcv 11
bf 0
cc 0
cc+ 0
cch 0
cd 0
cd+ 0
clv 29
clv+ 12
cm 0
cm+ 0
cs 0
cv 9
cva 22
cve 10
cve+ 0
cvs 10
cvs+ -9
dd -5
dd+ -15
ddv 29
df 39
df+ 40
dn 0
dn 0
dne 0
dnh 0
dw 0
dwd 0
dwe 0
dwl 0
dwv 0
ff 2
ff+ 0
ffk 6
ffk+ 0
fh 4
fh+ 12
flg -6
mcc 0
mcc+ 10
mcv 35
mdc 35
mdc+ 29
mec 0
mecd 0
nca 0
ncc -5

265 total bump to reflect loadouts and fighter equips.
Overall a 5 point increase per mirak ship.
individual average for only those increased/decreased is: 10

These are straight bpv values. Some of the ships you listed as being bumped, Fluf, actually may have been decreased on AOTK. But on this shiplist, their true BPV is listed. The list above shows only wether or not an increase or decrease happened.

I hope this helps to show that the 90% majority of "bumps" is due to loadout issues concerning AI imbalance issues.

There are several related matters to be taken into effect. Drone/Fighter and PF costs will be reduced due to lower mission payouts. Mission dificulty will be reduced through the AI multiplier. Curently I think its set at 1.15 or 1.10. Personally, I remember flying a Luran BC and NEVER ran into a Hydran ship that wasnt a DN. That just sucked, but now it should be fixed.

KATChuutRitt · « **Reply #21 on:** May 20, 2003, 12:16:29 am »

Dizzy could you list the BPVs with your list for comparisons?

and + 40 bpv for a frigate is obsurd in my opinion no matter what the reasoning.

Dizzy · « **Reply #22 on:** May 20, 2003, 12:22:11 am »

Consider 12 missiles in the air with 6 more 3 seconds away from being launched... Thats 18 heavy type 4's targeting one ship.

I will not go soft on Bombardment ships... Question is how much of an increase in BPV will they get. Remember, BPV ONLY is used for AI matchups. Nothing more...

Oh, and lets not forget the horrendous AI drone defense....

Fluf · « **Reply #23 on:** May 20, 2003, 12:34:59 am »

Dizzy I think you must be thinking about the old missions. AI drone defense has been improved. And we are not flying 1v1 anymore in these missions. Yes the DF+ can put out 12 drones in a wave vs one ship. I tried that last night in a Dave Sector Assault. I launched a wave and followed it in, tractored the L-BC and not one drone out of 12 hit. But the 12 PF+'s I drew in the mission with the 3 L-BC's sure didnt miss. I was dead in less than 2 minutes. Basically, what you are doing is removing these drone bombardment ships from play, as the players will not be able to use them with the mission packs we have now. This will not make the Kzin happy at all, but I will let them speak on that, as its not my place.

I have just got done talking to Karnak too, and lowering the difficulty on the server side will not affect his missions. They trigger off the mct of the campaign and off the BPV of the ship you are flying. So no matter what you do with the difficulty setting in the MetaMap.GF, his missions will trigger off the BPV of your ship, or 1.5 times your BPV. Many of Daves missions do the same thing as with Traceys.

Also the Excel comparison I sent you were compared from the stock Taldren shiplist and yours, not AOTK or CaptJeffs EAW list. Is that above list your new listing of changes that you propose? Im with Chuut there, +40 BPV on a frigate just isnt right lol.

Rob Cole · « **Reply #26 on:** May 20, 2003, 01:37:39 am »

Fkuf said he was drawing 3 Lyran BC's!!!!
Have you not been reading this thread???
In closing I would like to say.........................PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT!

Get yar butt back on the porch boy!

Dizzy · « **Reply #27 on:** May 20, 2003, 01:40:42 am »

Ok Blade... Dropping the DF+ back to its standard BPV wouldnt be the answeer if a 127 point bpv ship is drawing 3x L-BC's....

There is a larger issue here...

Fluf · « **Reply #28 on:** May 20, 2003, 01:56:47 am »

Dizzy,

Karnaks missions do work off of class, but they also pull in off of BPV too. So flying like his Skirmish mission in a DF+, I will pull in the standard classes he puts in, but they will be based on how high my BPV is.

I actually pulled in the L-BC's in a Dave Sector Assault. He also has a NW10Patrol now that is a 3v3 and is totally based on the BPV of you ship. Dave, Tracey, and Karnak all use the same multiplier of 1.5 of your BPV on most of their missions.

During the mission I stated above, I was flying a DF+ and in a normal Dave Sector Assault I probably would have drawn 2 or 3 CLs and CA. with my 2 FF allies. Instead I pulled 3 L-BC's and a L-NCE vs my DF+, F=DER and F-NCA. I saw a total of 2 L-INT's and 6 L-PF+'s along with this nice fleet. Needless to say, the Fed AI died within two minutes, and as I was trying to get my fearsome DF+ drone chucking machine moving, all the PF+'s whacked my impervious 12 point shields to nothing in one shot and I was gone.

I ran several of these types of missions, both the 10Patrol, Karnak Skrimish and a few others and after losing both my MCC and the DF+ decided to move over to Klink space to get away from all the nasty PF's. I was still pulling in L-BC's at this time.
Klink space was still know fun, and I lost my DWD within 2 missions, pulling in C7's with F6's in simple Karnak missions or Dave missions with D7W, F5K, AD5. And thats with a war destroy. Hmm but my BPV puts me at a light crusier so at 1.5, yeah Im pulling in CA's and CLs.

Whole point is Diz, Im a vet of this game. I can imagine what a new player would think of this.

Recommedation:

Dont screw with the shiplist. Put it back to stock. Throw the Tholians in and lets play!

KATChuutRitt · « **Reply #29 on:** May 20, 2003, 02:09:42 am »

Also Dizzy with the multiple ship missions if you catch a player in a mission his ai help is also based on BPV. So the droners which are normally lousy for p vs p will really be a liability here. I agree with Fluf, go back to stock and lets play.

KATChuutRitt · « **Reply #31 on:** May 20, 2003, 02:29:30 am »

Well playtest the DF+ a bit on the test server and see what you think Dizzy. Sound reasonable?

Dizzy · « **Reply #32 on:** May 20, 2003, 02:49:19 am »

I cant even get on the server cuz it says my accounts... it cant find the email addy... None of my accounts work to get me past the gs screen where you then see the servers...

FPF_TraceyG · « **Reply #34 on:** May 20, 2003, 04:26:39 am »

A note about ship prices. The game engine uses the following the formula.

Ship price = BPV * hull class modifier * price difficulty modifier

This formula is hard coded into the game engine and CANNOT be changed. You can adjust the modifiers in the server gf files and you can change the BPV in the shiplist. Clearly, however, the price of a ship is always dependant upon BPV, unless you make the BPV of every ship equal to one.

deadman · « **Reply #35 on:** May 20, 2003, 04:50:34 am »

Dizzy they are not lieing to ya, I was flying a drone frigget flew into 3 BCHs and 2 PF caring WDs, in another mission I pulled 2 BCHs,C7 2pfwds ,in another I pulled a DNP 2 CAs and a pf tender, and the reason I am flying a drone boat is to handel all the PFs, and my AI help is gone in about 2min and that leave just me agenst everything else, Dizzy I love the concept and apriceate all the work you put in but your BPVs on your ships are wrong and they are drasticly efecting game play. I realy want this to work as this is the first campain that anyone has asked me what I thought should go into it or what I thought about anything, we ould not lie about this we all want it to be a great campaine Dizzy we realy do.

deadmansix

deadman · « **Reply #38 on:** May 20, 2003, 06:37:40 am »

Dizzy I was going buy the title of this thread I did not mean to say that all of the ships were wrong,I am sorry if you got that from my post.

Dizzy · « **Reply #41 on:** May 20, 2003, 11:38:58 am »

The DW has no increase. It is 108 BPV. That is the correct BPV for that ship. Any other BPV on any other shiplist is wrong.

I think I posted which mirak ships were boosted and by how much.

Ill take under advisement your objections and lower the bump for the Drone Bombbardment ships. The other ships reflect their true BPV, however.

And I dont have a negative slant towards the Mirak.

I want to make sure you have a shiplist that is fun for you. Obviously you are not happy. So something needs to be done. But I'll not drop the bump entirely. The bump on thos type ships has been discussed since custom shiplists first started being talked about...

Matsukasi · « **Reply #42 on:** May 20, 2003, 12:13:51 pm »

I'm using the stock shiplist to compare, Diz. What shiplist are you using for comparison?

Fluf · « **Reply #44 on:** May 20, 2003, 01:20:00 pm »

Just a short comparison,

DF+
Stock Taldren = 80
OP Taldren =80
EAW 1.03 =85
OP+2.1c =75
SG3 =127

DW
Stock Taldren = 87
OP Taldren =87
EAW 1.03 =91
OP+2.1c =87
SG3 =108

DWD
Stock Taldren = 86
OP Taldren =86
EAW 1.03 =90
OP+2.1c =86
SG3 =111

MCC
Stock Taldren = 124
OP Taldren =129
EAW 1.03 =128
OP+2.1c =130
SG3 =145

CC
Stock Taldren = 140
OP Taldren =140
EAW 1.03 =149
OP+ 2.1c =135
SG3 =158

CCH
Stock Taldren = 153
OP Taldren =153
EAW 1.03 = 157
OP+ 2.1c =153
SG3 = 170

Dizzy, as you can see its not only the drone bombardment ships the Kzin are worried about. This happened to 30 out of 51 ships in your list. Apparantly anything that had a B or C rack got bumped really good.

KOTH-Steel Claw · « **Reply #45 on:** May 20, 2003, 01:34:32 pm »

The Z-MCC and the F-CLC were match ups I see a lot of on D2 play in PvP. The F-CLC actually dropped 2 points from the stock EAW BPV, while getting a bump in min marines by 4.

mbday · « **Reply #46 on:** May 20, 2003, 03:27:05 pm »

While I must say that now I'm getting worried that we will never get this server going at all. At lest not with this ship list.
I mean look at every this is not fair this is not right. Why not every one post what they think there favort ship should be like and we use them. But rememerb every one elsa has to think they are ok as well.

I mean look so far some one has had something to say about every races ships. So eather we redo every thing and wait 2 or 3 weeks more before the server can start becuase every one whats to play test all the ships. I have no problem with this but I have stayed off other servers for this one and I need a campaign now not 3 weeks from now.

Just me rambling sorry about that.

Cocomoe · « **Reply #48 on:** May 20, 2003, 06:16:56 pm »

DIzzy, who cares doe what you think is best and leave it at that.

You will not make everyone happy so don't try to.

Cocomoe

Dizzy · « **Reply #49 on:** May 20, 2003, 07:10:12 pm »

Matsukasi.. I know what happened...!!!

The stock shiplist has -BPV modifiers... SG3 does not. SG3 lists just about every ship in terms of true BPV.

The BPV's matchup (vary maybe 1-3 BPV points) when comparing the SG3 and EAW stock shiplists when you take away the EAW and SG3 BPV - or + modifiers. This phenomenon happens most exclusively with drone ships...

Ok, here's what I'll do. I'll entirely drop my Drone BPV bumps, but I think we need to leave the Carrier bumps in place. Carrier BPV has never taken into account their fighter/PF loadouts.

I think will solve the problems...

Scipio_66 · « **Reply #50 on:** May 20, 2003, 07:47:40 pm »

There is a flip side to this arguement, of course. Let's look at the DF with slow drones:
Lists at..........74
Draws AI of....74
Firepower of...74

To counter this the Gorn would use a DD+
Lists at..........74
Draws AI of....74
Firepower of...74

As eras progress, now let's take that matchup to fast drones. The DF+ :
Lists at...........80
Draws AI of.....80
Firepower of..117

To get the firepower of this DF, the Gorn would move up to an HDD+
Lists as........117 (and gets a higher hull class price modifier)
Draws AI of...117
Firepower of..117

This has always been true, and is a big reason behind the call for more late-era drone defense in the eastern powers.

But I'll second Cocomoe. Dizzy, check your BPV settings for inadvertant errors, and then do what you feel best.

-S'Cipio

Green · « **Reply #52 on:** May 20, 2003, 08:42:49 pm »

Ack. Spent two (okay, one and a half) successful days not responding to this thread. Well, thats not true, I have actually made three previous posts, but backed out before hitting continue ... but its the thought that counts. Right? But I've broken down, forgive me. Oh, and I'm positive my fellow Kzin will get a hunting party up shortly for me.

There has been a lot of focus on the DF. Unfortunately that drone boat has (IMO) caused the bigger discussion of the BPV bumps for drones/fighters to be misunderstood.

I do not like the DF, but that is one cat's opinion. It is liked by others. Same holds true for the MDC. But it isn't the BPV of the DF that has raised concerns but rather all of the ships that use drones or fighters (I don't like fighters either, but that is a different thread. And yes, the Patriarch does require me to go to weekly psycho sessions to try to fix my brain).

I want to point out that Dizzy is willing to drop all bumps to drone equipped ships and I assume subtractions also (unless you were sarcastic Dizzy, in which case 6th letter / 21st letter

) except for the carriers. I admit, I don't think the carriers should go through the same hell hole, but whatever, maybe a different thread. One thing I do know is I like playing different shiplists (man, FireSoul's was sooo cool, got me hooked further into the D2). If this results in a new shiplist that might be used in the future. Good.

A server admin has the right ... yes, I said friggin right ... to select their shiplist. But the server admin also knows that the more extreme the change the greater chance of fewer players showing, which, I imagine (since I ain't got the brains to do one of my own) that has got to suck after putting so much effort into it.

Dizzy, I have no bloody idea what shiplist you'll end up with. I don't believe the current one is right and that adjustments down in BPV are needed ... more towards AOTK or even satock (except for the DF

). Nor do I think drones or fighters should be penalized as much as they are. But whatever it ends up being, yes I'll play on it. As a Mirak. And if I end up in a freighter thinking "that friggin SOB" then so be it. There will be another D2 with another shiplist and other missions and ya know what ... I'll be playing on those also.

Right. And another thing is ... nah, I better shut-up. I'm in enough trouble as is now. Hmmm ... now to hit the continue button ... lets see

Edit: Allen, I fart in your general direction.

News:

Topic: BPV bumps for drone ships?? (Read 8957 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Kortez

SSCF Hooch

Kortez

KOTH-Steel Claw

Matsukasi

Toten

warsears

Dizzy

KBF-Dogmatix

Kortez

Matsukasi

Kroma_BaSyl

warsears

The_Infiltrator

KATChuutRitt

Rob Cole

KBF-Dogmatix

Fluf

Dizzy

Rob Cole

Dizzy

KATChuutRitt

Dizzy

Fluf

Rob Cole

Dizzy

Rob Cole

Dizzy

Fluf

KATChuutRitt

Dizzy

KATChuutRitt

Dizzy

Dan

FPF_TraceyG

deadman

Dizzy

Dizzy

deadman

Kortez

Matsukasi

Dizzy

Matsukasi

warsears

Fluf

KOTH-Steel Claw

mbday

Karnak

Cocomoe

Dizzy

Scipio_66

warsears

Green

Dizzy

warsears

Topic: BPV bumps for drone ships?? (Read 8957 times)