Topic: Unbalanced ships in the SG3 shiplist

[Green]

Real quick.  I've had the priviliage of playing Tholian on the SG3 test server.  They are NOT a dominant race.  The mirak do much better against AI.  Though I haven't had the opportunity to play a tholian vs a human, I do not think they will do too well.  

Tholian = T-Bombs and Capturing.

Now, all the above are stated w/o seeing what the Tholian PFs will do (cause a CTD whenever they r launched).

[JMM]

I'm gonna have to vote no to the split hardpoints on the rom P/Fs plasma launchers, even if I fly them that is still way too much. I flew with the Roms, and they are great guys just like most others, and I want the Roms to have a pp farmer and new toys, but no uber p/fs please! I am not the most incompetent person, and not once, not twice, but three times i lost a 3 ship squadron from Hades to one lonely THV with the p/fs from Hades!

If anyone is interested, I really see no need to super modify any ships, only slight mods or maybe a new class, but let's not get design happy.

As dogmatix can say, we have been there, done that...

Darn I miss my Fafsa game and spec books, they had some pretty good ships, like the Baker class destroyer, chandley frigate, and a photon cruiser that shot all photons in FA, not to just the left side!  

[Kortez]

Well, then it sounds like we, Nanner, Dogmatix, and myself, are in agreement.

I don't know what Dizzy's goals are either, for the record.  I do support the server creator's right to do it his way, ultimately.  That is part of what makes play on the dyna fun.

BTW, I am getting T-bombed way outside of range 5 by the AI.
 

[CptCastrin]

I'd be interested in hearing Dan's opinions on the OP+ shiplist.

Doesn't include Tholians and others ... yet.  

[Karnak]

Quote:
I'm gonna have to vote no to the split hardpoints on the rom P/Fs plasma launchers, even if I fly them that is still way too much. I flew with the Roms, and they are great guys just like most others, and I want the Roms to have a pp farmer and new toys, but no uber p/fs please! I am not the most incompetent person, and not once, not twice, but three times i lost a 3 ship squadron from Hades to one lonely THV with the p/fs from Hades!

 

For the next dyna after SG3, check out the ISC Inv. shiplist. NW posted an online version  on his website. The Rom and Gorn plasma PFs don't have any split hardpoints. A certain feddie called  DH made sure of that, hehe.

 I agreed with him.

[Dizzy]

Lot to read here. Some of it is better than the action sequences in a few books I have read... This whole thread kept me on the edge of my seat, I just couldnt wait to get to the next post, hehe.

First issue:

 

Nanner mentioned that this is my server. Yes, and he is right it is my server. And if you dont like it, go piss up a French flagpole. But withouth the players, it doesnt much matter who's server it is if noone plays it, so I will happily take critizisms and differeing viewpoints on all matters.... this thread happily being about unbalanced ships

Second issue: Dan.

 

Brez, I am glad you finally came out of the closet. We were all wondering 'when' it was going to happen... I take credit

I'm glad  that you are here, leading the 'canon' sfb charge for the thols, but I asked for your help EARLY on, not after I did all the work and certainly not right before the servers starting... But hey... you never did have good timing. Mb thats why you lost all those engagements to me... Better late than never.

I have heard a few 'issues' with the tholians. So let me address a few here and I suppose we shall just continue till we are all satisfied and launch the server, or Karnak gets fed up with the delay and launches his. So here we go:

Everything I did this server was for a reason, and as such I am willing to spend a few sentences (time) on each issue, server start time permitting.

Now first off, the Thols wont be canon, not in the least. With source code to the game and a lot of code work (and a nice fat check to Tracey G.), possibly, but even with a port over to OP, there would be major adaptability problems.

Second, a few have mentioned 'BPV' issues with ship cost relative to their loadout or configurations... Basically, Taldren tied too many things to BPV to really get it to work for any specific use. The only thing I have managed to use BPV for in SG3 (and I suspect all future servers will follow suit) is use it to match up AI and for shiploss. Anything else is irrelevant. So ALL BPV's have been altered in some form or fashion. GS or GZ players may see a need for BPV, but I say pick a race, class and the number of ships and lets leave the BPV at 9999...

That being said... Fire away brez.

Other issue was with the PF's... There is a LOT of shipwrights influence in this shiplist. PF's not being one of them. I am fairly certain AOTK was the source in this case. I'm not an expert here, and was always suspicious of why the PF's had split F harpoints (Seems to me that a human PF pilot could really deal some confusion using so many available psuedos...). What would be the difference if the PF's had them in one HP? Obviously there would be arc issues, but what else?

Anything else is appreciated, but keep in mind, I will not change everything, and Brez, at this stage of the game, you may want to call the tholians dizzians, as I doubt they will ever meet your satisfaction given your ADB background in this politically incorrect sfc world... I will however, warmly greet 'suggestions' you might have, especially about them being 'unbalanced' and consider altering them, slightly or drastically given the appropriateness of the change.

Nice comment on kid gloves, Dog. I liked that







 

[Dan]

Basic translation:

"I want tholians as long as I get to just make them up how I like them and ignore how they are supposed to be"

Thats rubbish.

You want a race of ships that you custom designed inste4ad of a race that was already designed with it's own perks and flaws. Your "tholians" have very few flaws considering their abundance of weapons with very wide arcs.

You don't want to use the real Tholian ships? Give me a bloody good reason why not. I'm not playing on this server until the THolians are actually the Tholians and not your own personal excuse to RM your own pet uber race.

My suggestion?

Remove every tholian ship you custom designed and put the correct ship in.

[Dizzy]

lol Brez...

Ok, lets take the arcs. The Ph-3's... they are supposed to be RA+R and LA+L, or something, right?

Well, those arcs do not work in SFC. So I had to compromise. You tell me a work around and I will attempt it.

Redoing the whole Tholian mod wont work, but possibly grouping type cjhanges and ship by ship alterations will.

I'll not subscribe to your generalized selfish interpretations of what you think my attitude is for my server, but I will tell you that I will try to work with you. But you need to work with me.

Perhaps like I illustrated with the arc problem, there are similar problems to overcome in other areas ( EDIT : due to the limitations of SFC), so lets discuss them. But lets start of with the arcs, mb?

EDIT: Like i said earlier, there are reasons I did what I did. I am open to your ideas.

[FPF_TraceyG]

Quote:

Second, a few have mentioned 'BPV' issues with ship cost relative to their loadout or configurations... Basically, Taldren tied too many things to BPV to really get it to work for any specific use. The only thing I have managed to use BPV for in SG3 (and I suspect all future servers will follow suit) is use it to match up AI and for shiploss. Anything else is irrelevant. So ALL BPV's have been altered in some form or fashion. GS or GZ players may see a need for BPV, but I say pick a race, class and the number of ships and lets leave the BPV at 9999...

   

Most of the mCreateShip methods found in the scripting API use a BPV parameter passed to them in order to generate the ship. Most noteably, the one that doesn't require a BPV value, is the one used to create player ships which instead has passed to it parameters regarding the actual player ship(s) itself. The latter is sometimes referred to as 'hardcoding' since the exact ship to be created is being specified and must therefore exist in the shiplist. Nevertheless, by and large, in most instances, the method used to create AI ships requires a BPV parameter and the game engine will then do it's best to find a match in the shiplist. Clearly then, it is important that the BPV values of ships are carefully balanced and that significant attention is given to them.
Regardless of the differences between SFB and SFC, as a measure of the relative combat strengths between ships, the BPV system is still the best that we have inorder to calculate this. It's not perfect, and a discussion on this point alone deserves far more justice than can be done here in this thread, but to do change or modify the BPV of ships, will have a serious effect on the game, especially in regard to AI ship generation. The ultimate measure however, has always been playtesting and SFB does have 20 more years experience up it's sleave than does SFC and is by far, the best and foremost guide we have to go by.
As an example, (I don't know if Dizzy is using the mission or not, he hasn't asked me for the completed version as yet), I wrote a Pirate Base Assault that generates Orion AI ships to defend a base. The base had two defence platforms, one ship defending (matched to the attacking player's primary vessel) and two other smaller 'reinforcement' Orion ships as well as a few freighters. I used the same formula for calculating prestige bonus awards as for the patrols I wrote which are based upon the relative BPV strengths of the opposing fleets. The stronger the opposing fleet, the higher the reward and vice versa. Now, in actually playing the mission itself, an Orion Base Station has no Ph-IV's, just about for any cruiser, it's a fairly easy kill. Although helpful, the defence platforms really don't do much and are more for technical accuracy. The Orion ships defending the base are matched to the player's fleet, and so the mission difficulty itself is not really that high. And yet, upon completing the mission, my prestige formula awarded well over 1000 pp. Upon inspection of the relative BPV strengths of both sides, the Orion team had a total BPV of more than twice the player team, but clearly, its combat effectiveness did not match. Upon closer inspection, I discovered that the defence platforms had a BPV of 50 each, the freighters had nearly 100 each, around 120 for the base, and when you add in the Orion ships, it comes to quite a tidy sum.
When comparing these BPV's to their SFB counterparts, I found that the Orion ship values had all been inflated by not just a bit, but quite a lot. Defence platforms in SFB only have a BPV of 20, Orion Slaver's around 60, and so on, but no changes have been made to them between SFB to SFC. Arguments aside that SFC is not SFB, it is playtesting here in SFC that supports the SFB BPV paradigm, and as a rule of thumb, where this is deviated from should start alarm bells ringing and alert us to the fact that we are likely to have a problem somewhere if it is ignored. Given that SFC is NOT SFB, reinforces the argument that even more attention and careful scrutiny be given to the BPV of ships and bases and anything else in the game, in order to ensure we don't upset the applecart.
 

[mbday]

I have to ask Dan hav you flown these ships or are you just looking at the ship list?
I can say that I have flown them and they are not as unblanced as you seam to think.
Stop looking at the Ship list and get in to one and see how it is. The ship list does not tell all.
Also do not try them on GSA or in Solo play. Get on the server with the server download and try them out.
When you have one of the Tholian ships upagainst tweo other ships you might look at it a diffrent way.

  I like the input Dan gave me something to look at when I was able to fly them. BUt please check them out on the server you might think they are ok.

[EschelonOfJudgement]

The Andor (if I understand correctly) is based on a FASA design, and I'm sure the stats were influenced more by the FASA specs than how it should fit into SFB.  As such, whether it is underpowered or on the wrong size hull should be taken into context.  If it can't fight it's way out of a paper bag, then I'm sure players will leave it in the docks... and if it is a cheese ship, that will become apparent shortly.

As for some of the other points, well the game is now underway so hopefully more clarity will emerge in the coming days.  As for Tholians carrying Hellbores... well these are Dizzy's Tholians, and SG3 has a different history than Canon SFB... I can come up with a couple of reasons for them having Hellbores (Tech exchange with the Hydrans or Orions?).  This certainly isn't a game breaker in any case, as long as the prestige required for the ships is in line with comparable designs...

As Taldren and others continuously like to remind us, though, this game is NOT SFB so we shouldn't expect things to necessarily be like they are in that game.  I'm still torqued over the magic photons, mostly because (IMHO) there was no real need for them.  But since Taldren had only a passing interest in keepng things closely in line with canon SFB (hence not completely benefitting from the play balance lessons learned in that game over three decades), well I lost interest.

This is a major reason why SFC III is not in my library - and from what I've read about gameplay in SFCIII, well my assessment of how much was being lost in the translation has been verified.  But I digress...

Nonetheless, any input given here will be helpful in future servers, so if a ship is imbalanced in game, then by all means bring it up so it can be resolved!  

A thought:  When I was statting Tholians for one of my own personal mods, I used X-Disruptors to replace the Web Casters (on a 1 for 1 basis) -as the damage/power/accuracy curve for one X-disruptor is similar to Web Fist mode (except that overloads throw this out of whack a bit).   While Disruptors can't be held, to be honest when I played SFB people usually weren't holding their web casters once the fight commenced - they were employing them as often as arming cycles would allow.  And for me, using X- Disruptors just seemed to fit in an odd way - an arcane technology that could only be produced in limited quantities... and which other races may have reverse engineered later when X ships  became available.

My thoughts anyways... have fun in SG3 people!  Maybe someday I'll get a chance to meet some of you in the Dyna...
   

[Dan]

I'm within about a hair of telling Ditzy to shove it and go make his own models for his server.

He doesn't have a THolian mod. He has one race of ships that he decided to just go ahead and "upgrade" when he didn't like how they looked.

Ditzy, the RAR and RAL arcs worked last time I knew. Even if they don't RX is not the solution.

Have fun on your server. I'm uninstalling SFC2 as I type this.

[Dizzy]

Quote:
I'm within about a hair of telling Ditzy to shove it and go make his own models for his server.

He doesn't have a THolian mod. He has one race of ships that he decided to just go ahead and "upgrade" when he didn't like how they looked.

Ditzy, the RAR and RAL arcs worked last time I knew. Even if they don't RX is not the solution.

Have fun on your server. I'm uninstalling SFC2 as I type this.  

RAR and RAL work. RWX and LWX do not...  Didnt the Tholians have  ph-3 RA arcs that also fire to the left and the other to the right side?

I didnt do much upgrading, dan. How far do I have to bend over backward to get you to understand I would like your help, not your attitude, please.

I did not take the liberty to completely redo every aspect of the tholians. So lets shy away from that ok? I did the best I could (without your expertise help I really needed and asked for at the outset) porting over the ships from the SSD's I could find. I admit to taking a few liberties here and there to make them 'fit' better in the sfc game.

I trust these 'liberties' I took are putting you off. I did them for a reason. Perhaps discussing the reason I made a change will help you understand why I made the change, and possibly have you agree or suggest a better change, if a change is necessary at all!

And I would also entertain your ideas on redoing some of these ships. Why dont you pick a thol cruiser of some type and post the ship-edit stats for it and I'll do the same for mine. Lets see which way our different experiences took them. Maybe we can find common ground.

And on a personal note, I think I get you here. You are so [censored] touchy about these tholians that you put notice to ppl they are on thin ice with you at there mere drop of a hat. Look, Brez, you have a whole website devoted to the Tholians... I get you that they are your babies and someone else is sticking them and your models on a trek server. If I were you, I'd be pissed if they [censored] it up. On the other hand, I'd jump at the chance to see it done right. So dude, chill out here and lets discuss this 'port'. The tholians I have are SFC playable and fairly balanced for this server. You say they arnt 'real' tholians. So lets discuss it. Okay? I get you man...  

[Dan]

no.

The Neo rear phaser arcs on RA+R and RA+L. THey are not the expanded arcs you list.

I'm really very anoyed that you totally altered the Tholian flavor into something else. Hellbores have no place on Tholian ships. Period. Ever. THey are primarily a phaser race. Disruptors and most other heavy weapons are an afterthought.

Hell, their bases have extra ph4s instead of heavy weapons (usually)

If you want to talk than use one of the IM programs.

AIM: Brezgonne
MSN: brezgonne@hotmail.com
ICQ: 61386281

[Fluf]

Well said Tracey and I agree totally.  Changing any BPV's must be carefully looked at and playtested.  I ran into this exact problem tonight.  Dizzy has bumped the BPV of most of the MIrak Drone Bombardment ships  such as the DF+, MDC+, and DWD almost 30 BPV in most cases.  I understand this as trying to balance the drone boats combat value and speed of missions.  However, with the types of missions and draws we face in SFC, this didnt work at all.  I flew the Z=DF+ for about 3 missions and ran from everyone and finally lost it.  Taking a frigate at 80 BPV and bumping it to 127BPV just doesnt work with the current missions and matching we have.  Its still a frigate with 12 point shields lol.   Try taking on 3 L-BC's and a L-NCE with a Z-DF+ and a F-DER and a Z-MEC sometime lol.  Hell the PF+'s killed me before the BC's even had a chance lol!   A 47 point BPV boost on a frigate is just not right.  I dont care what kinda drones you have on it.  I wouldnt even want to try a MDC+ at over 160 BPV now.  Cant imagine drawing 3 dreads in with that!  

[Dizzy]

cool, ill chat tomorrow with u.  I have yahoo IM. MSN doesnt work... I can get ICQ i suppose...

What about a GSA room?

I have to crash... Havent slept for a very lomg time.

Oh, and heard the part about your chick. Sorry. I had one that WRENCHED MY [censored] HEART OUT< THAT [censored] BITCH!

But Im over that now and found somwone else... Its tough, so hang in there dude...

Tomorrow!

[Dan]

apparently I have a yahoo account to since it accepted the UN and password.

ID: Brezgonne

[EschelonOfJudgement]

Dan,

I'm sorry that we are all making you so very frustrated over this.  And your input is valued by everyone.  Dizzy has had less than six hours since reading this thread to attempt to piece together what you are concerned about.  And judging by the events leading  up to the lauch of SG3, the demands on his time I'm sure have prevented him from focusing solely on the shiplist.

It appears that SG3 is in final testing mode, so input is still needed.  May I suggest that you post the Tholian section of the shiplist with the stats you feel they should have?  People can then compare them to what is in the pack and see exactly where you are coming from.  Not everyone has the Tholian SSD's you know... and few have the personal familiarity with them that you do.

I'm sure more than a few people are looking forward to seeing you play in the Dyna again.  You are most certainly considered welcome here, even though the fact that the standard "SFB versus SFC" mentality tends to get in the way sometimes.  So just be patient with the others here and keep trying to be constructive.  Remember the goal is to have a fun game, so let others benefit from your experience now - keeping in mind that their experience in working with D2 campaigns does count as well and should not be discounted out of hand.

Stay.  Fight for what you think is right.  All I ask is that everyone respects everyone else's right to have an opinion, and that everyone is willing to compromise for the sake of fairness and SFC play balance.

And I apologize for adding to your frustration.  I was only trying to help you understand some of the other facets of this discussion, not trying to make you feel unwelcome.  

EOJ
__________________

Dizzy,

May I suggest that you allow this discussion to continue a bit (as long as it is constructive), and do consider implementing the changes that are agreed to here.  If there is some reason that you chose to do a certain ship a certain way (that we bring up in this discussion), please point this out at the appropriate time so that everyone understands why.  It sounds like SG3 is a couple of days from final launch, so some last minute edits to the shiplist shouldn't be a big deal...

Besides, the Tholians are mostly untested, so bringing them a bit more closely in line with the SFB stats can't hurt - it's all reflected in the play balance, right?

Yes, I know that the SG3 has it's own server for discussing this, and that it was discussed there, but I think showing a little flexibility on this will attract more interest (and players) for the campaign.

I'll do my best to try to get into SG3 - depends on how my schedule works out.  I still regret missing SG2... and feel the need to fly ISC again.

EOJ






     

[Damaged]

Quote:

Dogmatix wrote:


Except for the fact that there is not any "Shiplist Council" or any organized group of people anywhere in this game creating shiplists and there hasn't been for some time.  I wonder how many MORE times I have to say that before even the most thick-headed of you finally get it.  Kick yourselves in the arse...it will do more good.  

Each and every shiplist that has EVER been used in this game, aside from the default shiplist (and perhaps even that), is the work of ONE individual on his own.  They do it to be creative and to offer some variety.  Sometimes, they don't match SFB!  OH MY!

SFC is not SFB.  It's an adaptation of SFB.  SFB should be used as a reasonable guideline for SFC.  Not a freaking end-all, be-all rulebook.  SFB cannon is a good place to start when looking for idea on how things should work or what should exist.  It seems to me that there's plenty of room to be creative beyond SFB cannon.

Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  

Who cares? Nice job of missing the point entirely and redirecting onto your own political agenda...

Did you copy and paste part of that from one of Nanner's old posts?

Oh and by the way Mr. "I hate FA disruptor boats and don't care about SFB", the fleet you claim to represent was started by an IC beta tester who was a stickler for SFB canon - and I'll bet he knew how to spell "canon" too.

Bite me, you half-breed petaQ!

D6
sole surviving Klingon Black Fleet founding member
 

[Soreyes]

Have to agree with Fluf. The mission matching is a mess. I flew 5 missions and mostly had my head handed to me.

I started off in a Z-DF+

Mission #1. Patrol vs. K-E4K and K-F6..... Won this one....150pp awarded......spent 173 to repair and rearm

Mission #2. Patrol vs. K-D5W and 2X K-E4K...... Got blown up

Mission #3. Sector Assalt. Z-DF+, F-NCL, F-FF vs. K-F6 and 2x K-F5K.......Won.......480pp Awarded..... Spent 113

Mission #4. Sector Assalt. Z-DF+, F-CA vs. 2x K-D5W, And 2x K-C7.......Got Blown Up

Mission #5. Patrol. Z-DWL vs 2x K-D5Ds......Got Blown Up

I believe that the Mission Matching needs a little Tweeking

Other things that I noticed while playing were: AI T-Bombing me from a range of 16?, Being hit for full damage by PH-3s at a range of 12?, AI ships have a very very fast phaser recharge rate.

I know this is a Test Server...... So I'll be back after work to test It some more