Topic: Unbalanced ships in the SG3 shiplist

[jimmi7769]

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Does double drone control apply to drone-based variants?  I assume so, then it seems quite sensible in one regard to assign double control to a ship with a drone rack outload consistent with a drone variant eventhough it may not be a drone variant.  

Now, don't we want to see this implemented my Klingon borthers?!!?!?!?

Give that C8 the channels it needs to fire it's drone racks!!!!

As for the F-DNH having 12 drone control, it shouldn't(per sfb) but then again the K-C10K with it's 8 drone racks doesn't appear to have double drone contol in SFB either, which is silly.

Gorns need those Plasma D's for drone defense(roms do to) While "Historically" they never fought against drones much, here in D2 land they do.

Lyrans need all the help they can get on planetary(and base) assaults.  The other energy races don't have the same problem it's a D2 fact.

I figured the tholians would be a mess.  Oh well, on the first day out with a new pair of shoes you trip a lot right??


Ans as has been said many times many wasys.....Merry christma.......err this ain't SFB.  And coming from me a staunch SFB'er thats quite a leap of faith.

[Harold Nez]

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Lyran:
The Klingon ships within the Lyran inventory are curious but need to be converted to Lyrn tech. No drone racks.

The EGO, as always, isn't a popular ship.

That's there partly because I asked--based, of course on the history of ours servers.   In fact, many initial changes that I was aware of, by the development forum and e-mails with Diz, are based, not on a rules set per se, but on a year or two of continous play and D2 veteran's input.  I see what you are saying, but please do try these mods.  See you out there.
--Harry  

[Farfarer]

...and what about all those tweaked up Klingon uber-ships?  eh?  How come no ones mentioning those?

oh wait...there aren't any hehehe  

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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I fail to see why Dan CANNOT post his views, after all we are a community, and everyone has a right to speak, or so I was told.

We have few enough players compared to a year and a half ago, let's not get mad at each other for our views or comments and make people want to leave. No, I'm not perfect either, Dog and Mog and others can testify I have done my share of public bitching, but I've learned to chill, and want everyone to stay and enjoy the game.

Darn I miss the days of CW 3 and the enrollment of hundreds of people! No lack of action on that campaign, no sirrreeee...  

There is one thing of doing this like this when the person is here to defend them shlef and there thought as to why they did something they way they did. It is another to not answer up and say yes I will help till they are not here and then start posting this is wrong that is wrong. Dan knew Dizzy had loeft town and would be away from the computer. Instead of saying to him shelf I have found things I do not like about what Dizzy has done but Dizzy is not here. Let me wait till he gets back and start posting this info then. He is doing it now. I'm not asking that he not post. I just asking that he wait till Dizzy is here to give his thought as to way he did something. I'm not whating to run any one off. Just the opsetof that. I'm just asking that Dan wait till Dizzy is here so we can find out what Dizzys idea was as to why he did so of the ships the way he did. Now if that is to much to ask for? Is that trying to run any one off?
And can you understand that?
 

Nice sentiments, Day...but Dizzy's a big boy.  He can handle it.  I think people will start treating Dizzy with kid gloves right about the time he does the same thing with someone else for the first time, eh?  


As JMM says...this is a community and we all have the priviledge to give our opinions until some moderator or forum admin says otherwise.    Part of the fun in these fora is discussion the different topics at hand and if we always waited until someone was around to respond, well...I think you get my drift.


Dizzy will have things to say on these issues when he gets back.  Untill then, there's nothing wrong with commenting on Dan's observations as long as it's done within the rules of these fora set forth by the admins and policed by the moderators.


.

[Kortez]

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The DNH has double drone control in SFC without having paid the BPV bump for it. If it had the BPV bump for it, it wouldn't be QUITE as bad.

The REASON the CFS is underpowered in your mind is because it's carrying around the firepower of most dreadnoughts. From a cruiser stand point it's very well powered at 36 (CFS) or 42 (CFS+ only 2 years later).

The reason I mention SFB is because it is extreamly useful in regards to balance. The ships are playtested by many people and revised to be balanced within their class.

As for delaying the server that really isn't an issue. It's better to finish the files before the server starts than after.

As far as the intent of the various ships; your right. I don't know who ment what with each ship. All I have to look at is the stats for the ships. And you know what? I couldn't care less what the intent was for the ships if they are so bloody unbalanced compared to their class that they would autokill something two sizes bigger.

Using "Well there are already cheesy ships in the game..." as an excuse for adding more is such a poor excuse it's not even remotely amusing.

The Tholian ships Ditzy added barely even remotely resemble the Tholian ships that are in the source material. If Ditzy really wants to play the THolians than he should not use his own tweaked versions, a good number of which outclass the other races ships of the same type.

Bitch and complain about me all you like. I'm used to people not liking me and there isn't anything you can say or do that can compare to what I have to put up with in reality or what I've put up with in the past.  

I support game balance.  If it takes longer, then let it take longer!
 

[Hondo_8]

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Without seeing the shiplist...

I think the Drone equipt Lyrans might be there to give them a leg up on assault missions. They have always had issues in that department and this might be an atempt at a possible cure. Another one from the past is an assualt script allowing them to commission a drone armed pirate to assist them.

OTOH, drone armed Rommies? Our shortcomming (compared to the western powers) is in AI kill times, esp in early and early-mid era. If we're to get help in that area, I would rather see an earlier introduction of some crippled INTs and the casual PFT variants. A KEF or KRCSF (or even a WEF or KRCF?) with a pair of (1) plas-F INTs would go through AI like the drone/fighter races, but would offer little threat to a real live human until the kill shot.

As for the Ph-2s on Rom ships, I don't recall what ADB did with the Kestral refits, but Taldren's stock Kestrals do use Ph2s as does the Snipe-P; so there is precident.  

Dont know if this Idea is acceptable but what about a shared shiplist with the Klingons? for Early era to help with mission times? Or just throw in a few Klink ships for mission times?

[The_Infiltrator]

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Dan,

  Now why do you what to do this. It sounds to like you what the server the way you what it.
Dizzy is not the only one that has worked on the ship list. Sure Dizzy is running the server but he is not the only one that has worked to put this togather.   I do remember seeing a post were Dizzy had ask you to help with this server before and you blew him off. Now after knowing his is away from the interner you what to help. I got to ask were was your help when it was asked for.

Sorry but this is how I feel. You what this server to be the way you what it now that Dizzy is not here to say any thing to you about it. Take this stuff and wait till he gets back and show it to him not here on the forums. Nit till he has a change to look at it and responed to you.  

Brez is a ADB playtester, a very experienced tholian and kzinti player, and has been playing this game for much longer than you. He has a better understanding of these problems and you should at least hear him out.

I don't have the list in front of me, but it would be nice if every race had their DNL's, and the hydrans had the Regent as they're supposed to. Speaking of the Regent (as pointed out in the first post) and all hydran DN's for that matter, they have RWX/LWX gatling arcs in SFB. The LWX arc is broken and doesn't work in SFC. Considering that the RS/LS arc is the closest thing to those, I'd recommend these arcs.

[Lepton1]

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Ditzy's Neo-Tholian CA:

Designation: T-NCA
BPV: 157 (This BPV is VERY, VERY low. Should be about 180)
Crew: 49
Marines: 12
Shield 1: 30
Shield 2 & 6: 24
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 150

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: D
Total Warp Power: 30
Impulse Power: 5
Aux Power: 2
Total Engine Power: 35
Battery: 4

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Shuttles: 6

4x Disruptor 4 (FA)
2x Hellbore (FA)
9x Phaser 1 (3 FH. 3 RS. 3 LS)
6x Phaser 3 (4 RX. 1 RS. 1 LS)

------------------------------------------------------

Correct Neo-Tholian CA (2 webcasters replaced with 4 Ph-1s instead of 4 dsiruptors to preserve power curve)

 SSD for Neo-Tholian Avenger-Class Heavy Crusier

Designation: Z-NCA
BPV: 160
Crew: 52.5
Marines: 15
Shield 1: 30
Shield 2 & 6: 24
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 150

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: B
Total Warp Power: 30
Impulse Power: 5
Aux Power: 2
Total Engine Power: 35
Battery: 4

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Mech Tractors: 0
Shuttles: 4
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 3 (FA)
11x Phaser 1 (3 FH. 4 FA (Replacing casters). 2 RS. 2 LS)
6x Phaser 3 (2 RA+R, 2 RA+L, 1 RS, 1 LS)
 

I think you may have misspoken earlier in terms of what the dizzies are standing in for.   If you look at the SSD for the neo-tholian heavy cruiser, you will see that you yourself have replaced the PARTICLE CANNONS with disruptors.  The damage stats on those are virtually identical to the disruptor.  The dizzes are there to replace the particle cannons in Dizzie's T-NCA not the webcasters.  The hellbores were to be modified to be the webcasters.  This last bit of info was delivered by Scipio or Karnak (I forget which) earlier to you in another thread.  So as far as I can see there is nothing wrong with Dizzie's T-NCA except that the webcasters need to be swapped out for phaser 1s since the casters were not able to be implemented this time around.  Perhaps if you stopped and thought a moment, this would have been clear to you.   If that is your best example of an unbalanced ship or wrong ship in his shiplist, you are going to have to do better than that.

[Dan]

And perhaphs if you stopped and asked quesitons first you wouldn't end up with your foot in your mouth when I have to correct your information.

The ship shown is the Home Galaxy version. The only difference between the Home galaxy and the Milky way version is that the PCs are range 30 disruptors in the milky way.

Ditzy replaced each web caster with a Hellbore AND a Ph-1.

He made the turn mode two steps wrong and drasticly altered the weapons arcs.

Hell, the only THolian ship with a D turnmode is the battleship.

Are you gong to spout off any more rubbish Lepton?

[Lepton1]

Indeed, people who know me know that is what I do best.  You've got all the experience and knowledge on your side.  Fine!

I don't give a rat's ass what the home galaxy/ milky yada yada is.  

What??!! He altered some arcs on some phaser 3's!!!  Ouch!!!!  

HEHE!! This is fun.  

Look, why don't you just make up the proper ships with your explanations, send it off to Dizzy, and let's be done with my idiocy!!  Good Luck to you!!

[Damaged]

Brez> THANK YOU.

I'm so sick of seeing unbalanced and just plain idiotic shiplist mods for Dyna. It's great to see someone that works with ADB getting involved, even if it's just out of anger I hope you'll stick around, the so-called "Shiplist Council" (or whatever they call themselves now) desperately needs a swift kick in the arse.

I especially like your comment on using multi-race coop instead of trying to mix racial systems on the same boat... that's the same simple and obvious solution I offered way back when...  

Of course, most of this wouldn't be necessary if it wasn't for Taldren's ineptitude at implementing the SFB game engine... i.e. AI has no drone defense (leading to quick AI kills / quick mission times for drone races), both fighters and PF's are needed for all races to fill the gaps (example: Lyrans need Klink drone fighters), and fleet control not working (to allow escorts to provide point defense for large capital ships instead of adding PD to all DNs   ).

I think the combined shiplist will go a long way toward balancing the Dyna, without any ship modifications.

As far as Klingon modifications go, all we need is our correct boom phaser arcs and corrected drone costs.The Klinks have been screwed by inflated drone costs since SFC1, and look at the ladder leagues - no Mirak fleets! Not surprising considering everyone wants to play late era and drone races can't get fast drones without facing a ship 2 hull classes larger.

Ah well, here's hoping SFC4:GAW will fix these obvious problems that should have been taken care of in SFC1 beta.

Thanks again Brez.

D6
 

[NannerSlug]

okay.. someone pointed me this this direction and i will say only this.. you might have a point or two.. you maybe correct or not.. (all this is purely subjective) the most important thing here, in my unimportant and completely irrelevent view point, is that this is dizzy's server. if you dont like it, you dont have to participate.  i fully expect to see any ship list produced by anyone (including adb - they are no better than anyone else) to have flaws with it. the main issue here, in my view, is the vision put forth by the server producer.

if it is dizzy's intentions to be exactly like sfb - they he should consult you out the wazoo.. (at least if he is smart..) however if it is somthing else, then that is completely upto him. people should be allowed to share their vision of this game through mods and campaigns as they like. the people playing them should have the ability to participate or not participate as they like as well. its a mutal thing.

ill wonder back into my corner of the galaxy now.

p.s. brez.. you know i respect you and your ship list abilities.. that said, common sense should prevail with the F-DNH and the K-C10k concerning double drone control.. but that is MY view, which is completely subjective.

[DH123]

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Brez> THANK YOU.

I'm so sick of seeing unbalanced and just plain idiotic shiplist mods for Dyna. It's great to see someone that works with ADB getting involved, even if it's just out of anger I hope you'll stick around, the so-called "Shiplist Council" (or whatever they call themselves now) desperately needs a swift kick in the arse.  

What he said . . .
 

[DH123]

HUGE ISSUE!

Split harpoints on the Plasma PFs.  it is the exact same thing from AOTK.  PFs fire ALL plasma Fs at once as opposed to 2 at a time like they are designed to in SFC and are only allowed to in SFB.

What is with the pirate ships?  

[Kortez]

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okay.. someone pointed me this this direction and i will say only this.. you might have a point or two.. you maybe correct or not.. (all this is purely subjective) the most important thing here, in my unimportant and completely irrelevent view point, is that this is dizzy's server. if you dont like it, you dont have to participate.  i fully expect to see any ship list produced by anyone (including adb - they are no better than anyone else) to have flaws with it. the main issue here, in my view, is the vision put forth by the server producer.

if it is dizzy's intentions to be exactly like sfb - they he should consult you out the wazoo.. (at least if he is smart..) however if it is somthing else, then that is completely upto him. people should be allowed to share their vision of this game through mods and campaigns as they like. the people playing them should have the ability to participate or not participate as they like as well. its a mutal thing.

ill wonder back into my corner of the galaxy now.

p.s. brez.. you know i respect you and your ship list abilities.. that said, common sense should prevail with the F-DNH and the K-C10k concerning double drone control.. but that is MY view, which is completely subjective.  

Brez, I recommend you feel free to post your opinions. You don't need Nanner's permission to do so.

Why are you back here, Nanner?  Your opinion on the D2 was well documented before you left.
 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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Brez> THANK YOU.

I'm so sick of seeing unbalanced and just plain idiotic shiplist mods for Dyna. It's great to see someone that works with ADB getting involved, even if it's just out of anger I hope you'll stick around, the so-called "Shiplist Council" (or whatever they call themselves now) desperately needs a swift kick in the arse.  

What he said . . .
   

Except for the fact that there is not any "Shiplist Council" or any organized group of people anywhere in this game creating shiplists and there hasn't been for some time.  I wonder how many MORE times I have to say that before even the most thick-headed of you finally get it.  Kick yourselves in the arse...it will do more good.  


Each and every shiplist that has EVER been used in this game, aside from the default shiplist (and perhaps even that), is the work of ONE individual on his own.  They do it to be creative and to offer some variety.  Sometimes, they don't match SFB!  OH MY!


SFC is not SFB.  It's an adaptation of SFB.  SFB should be used as a reasonable guideline for SFC.  Not a freaking end-all, be-all rulebook.  SFB cannon is a good place to start when looking for idea on how things should work or what should exist.  It seems to me that there's plenty of room to be creative beyond SFB cannon.


Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  


 

[SSCF_Paladin]

Hmm... AOTK PF plasmas, and the roms get drones?  Umm..  those could cause some problems.

[Kortez]

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Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  

Until Dizzy says he is not interested in hearing any comments on his ships, that he won't change anything, is not interested in any ship commentary, that we will play what he gives us and for everyone to STFU, people have the right to post their opinions.  I am not interested in hearing speculation.  Speculation is not fact.  If Dizzy wants to post his dogma, he can.

Then people can decide if SG3 is for them or not.  I still think Brez has the right to post his opinions on the shiplist.  I stand by that comment.

 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Don't get me wrong, Kortez...I totally agree...and pretty much said the same thing earlier in this thread.  I'm just talking about people just bagging on something because it's not SFB.  I know you and others are not doing this, but there are some that are and I think it's an important point to make.  An "author" of a server is embarking on a creative process.  Sometimes, that process is going to stray into new and...*gasp*..non-SFB-cannon areas.  


Again..yes..comment, critique and question away...that's one of the fun things about these fora and this process, at least in my opinion.  


 

[NannerSlug]

kortez.. you missed the point completely.. you are right in everything you said (brez has a right to say stuff). there is nothing wrong with that at all!

my only point was that without dizzy saying what his intentions might or might not be. if dizzy was aiming for sfb perfections, then he should listen to brez. i can find no one better to guide such an effort. what if he wasnt, though?

dogmatix is 100% correct in what he was saying..  i might add that every ship list will always be unbalanced in some way, fashion or form. its sorta like picking your poision. but hey, that is why you have modded servers.. and people can play on a server if they like it, or they can pass. it is completely upto them.