Topic: Unbalanced ships in the SG3 shiplist

[Dan]

First off I'd like to point out that this is all my personal opintion. I will also point out that I playtest for ADB and have some say on published ships (mostly Thols) and have gotten a few of my own ships published.

Federation:

FEDERATION PLAYERS HAVE BE BE AWARE THAT THEY CANNOT BUY ORION SHIPS.

The ADR "Andor"

This ship is so unbalanced it's not funny. 8 photon torpedoes and 6 ph-1s on light cruiser hull with 37+ power. I'd recommend it be totally removed or at the very least heavily modified. If ship is retained remove all but the FH phasers and remove the aft torpedeos. Increase movement cost to 1 but retain current power setup to represent the overloaded hull. In SFB this ship would have a single die shock rating and roll any time it fired more than 4 torpedoes.

F-CR

I dislike this ship since the phasers were added tot he FH arc insted of the side arcs.

F-DNH

SFB ship has single drone control.

F-CFS

AS always this ship is pure power gamed BS. 8 photons and double drone control on a cruiser hull is totally unreasonable.

Romulan

R-CR

Romluans with drone racks are a major balance no-no. Remove the drone rack and phaser 2s. The romulans never used ph-2s.

The SPZ is back to the 6 plasma-F config and should be reduced back to the 4 F's it would have if you replaced the S.

Gorn:

The entire refit that swaps out a couple ph3s for plasma-d racks needs to be changed from a balance standpoint. The standard procedure for such a refit is to replace the plasma-F's. Adding them outright like on the DNT is even worse. Plasma-D's ALWAYS have a 180 firing arc unless they are on bases.

Lyran:
The Klingon ships within the Lyran inventory are curious but need to be converted to Lyrn tech. No drone racks.

The EGO, as always, isn't a popular ship.

Hydran

The PAH is STILL not the right SFB ship.

THolian

Overall the buggiest race I looked at. The ships rarely match the real tholian ships and instead mostly look like someone looked at the Thols, wasn't satisfied so they added a bunch of other systems to the ship. Most of them need to be revised.

[Lepton1]

Lots of interesting well informed opinions I take it.  Two points from my feeble mind.  Any resemble between SFC and SFB is well let's say somewhat coincidental. I have heard it often expressed that the vagaries of a real-time game do not permit a strict adherence to SFB doctrine.  Whether or not this is the case for any of the unpleasant ship modifications is beyond my abilities to determine.  

Perhaps in some instances you are merely noting Taldren-established SFB discrepancies that have nothing to do with Dizzy's shiplist per se.  The CFS is a case in point I think.  Have you ever played this ship?  It is severely underpowered for all its weaponry and quite difficult to manage in a world of speed 31 charging romulans, etc.  Again whether or not the CFS is SFB canon seems less of the point.  Rather it is, does the ship work in SFC?  The CFS is in no sense an ubership and as such hardly seems unbalancing.  Who plays this ship anyway???   No one I know except me which often leads people to say "Why didn't you just choose a BCF for the same bpv?"  

Does double drone control apply to drone-based variants?  I assume so, then it seems quite sensible in one regard to assign double control to a ship with a drone rack outload consistent with a drone variant eventhough it may not be a drone variant.  

Lastly I think any of the inconsistencies in the Lyran Tech or Tholian ships may have more to do with a general sense of experimentation and less to do with any negligence or false intentions of the parties involved in the shiplist.  You seem to be stepping in at the eleventh hour to make some commentary but may not be fully aware of the intent of the server and its shiplist nor the intentions of the server designers.  Although I must say drone racks on a rom ships sounds a bit silly.  Perhaps it was a mistake.

While you have obvious expertise in this area, there are any number of cheesy ships in SFC.  I am sure any of these temporary additions to their number will not affect things too much especially if "fixing" them were to delay the server longer.  

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Well, my humble opinion on these points is that, at the very least, these designs need to be playtested a bit before they are used in a live campaign.  AOTK's shiplist, flawed though it may have been, did actually get a week or two of playtesting before it was put into service and many changes were made as a result of the testing.


It will be an interesting ride, either way...


 

[Rob Cole]

Well ya know why Dizzy has the Tholians uber.....He will be flying them...Oh now come on I know ya aint shocked

[Soreyes]

Roms with Drones..................  Say it ain't so

[SPQR Renegade001]

Without seeing the shiplist...

I think the Drone equipt Lyrans might be there to give them a leg up on assault missions. They have always had issues in that department and this might be an atempt at a possible cure. Another one from the past is an assualt script allowing them to commission a drone armed pirate to assist them.

OTOH, drone armed Rommies? Our shortcomming (compared to the western powers) is in AI kill times, esp in early and early-mid era. If we're to get help in that area, I would rather see an earlier introduction of some crippled INTs and the casual PFT variants. A KEF or KRCSF (or even a WEF or KRCF?) with a pair of (1) plas-F INTs would go through AI like the drone/fighter races, but would offer little threat to a real live human until the kill shot.

As for the Ph-2s on Rom ships, I don't recall what ADB did with the Kestral refits, but Taldren's stock Kestrals do use Ph2s as does the Snipe-P; so there is precident.  

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
Well ya know why Dizzy has the Tholians uber.....He will be flying them...Oh now come on I know ya aint shocked  

Hey!  You said it, not me!  



I just remember Dizzy's tirades about the AOTK shiplist.  I'm not sure what to think of this...heheh.  


 

[Rob Cole]

So true Doggy.

[Dan]

The DNH has double drone control in SFC without having paid the BPV bump for it. If it had the BPV bump for it, it wouldn't be QUITE as bad.

The REASON the CFS is underpowered in your mind is because it's carrying around the firepower of most dreadnoughts. From a cruiser stand point it's very well powered at 36 (CFS) or 42 (CFS+ only 2 years later).

The reason I mention SFB is because it is extreamly useful in regards to balance. The ships are playtested by many people and revised to be balanced within their class.

As for delaying the server that really isn't an issue. It's better to finish the files before the server starts than after.

As far as the intent of the various ships; your right. I don't know who ment what with each ship. All I have to look at is the stats for the ships. And you know what? I couldn't care less what the intent was for the ships if they are so bloody unbalanced compared to their class that they would autokill something two sizes bigger.

Using "Well there are already cheesy ships in the game..." as an excuse for adding more is such a poor excuse it's not even remotely amusing.

The Tholian ships Ditzy added barely even remotely resemble the Tholian ships that are in the source material. If Ditzy really wants to play the THolians than he should not use his own tweaked versions, a good number of which outclass the other races ships of the same type.

Bitch and complain about me all you like. I'm used to people not liking me and there isn't anything you can say or do that can compare to what I have to put up with in reality or what I've put up with in the past.

[Scipio_66]

I'll give the same caveat.  This is all my opinion.  


Dizzy posted about the Lyrans a while back.  The intent for the Lyran "Kestrels" was to give them drones for assaults.  They weren't converted to Lyran tech because they weren't supposed to be.  (Think of them as expeditionary fleet ships, rather than purchased items.)  The presence of the L-D7D suprised me, but the rest I don't worry about.

They are neither more nor less balanced than the Klingon ships of the same name.



I disagree with your assessment that Gorn ships should make an even swap of Plas-F  for Plas-D.    SFC has no offensive Plas-D mode, so you are really pulling the teeth of the ships if you do a straight swap.  They should get some sort of phaser enhancement as well if we drop the F torps.

Since the only Gorn opponent is the ISC -- with their advanced designs and their uber Caveat's --  any increase the Gorn ships get for Dizzy's  Plas-D for ph-3's swap shouldn't be a balance problem.  Gorn will still come up on the short end of the balance stick.  Note that against non-carriers, these Gorn ships will actually be less effective since they've lost (small) phasers for a weapon which has no offensive function.


I haven't looked closely enough at the Fed or Tholian ships to comment.


-S'Cipio  

[Dan]

Damn you guys post fast. That, or I type slowly.

While I have my own suspitions on why the Thols are tweaked like they are I'l reserve judgement till Ditzy gets back and can explain.

[Dan]

the DNT doesn't lose ANYTHING to gain the FX and RX plasma-D racks. They are just strapped to the hull without any weapons change. THe firing arcs are to wide. racks are universally restricted to 180 degrees unless on a fixed object (even there is rare)

THe while your correct that the plasma-d's in SFC doesn't have an offensive ability it also was very much lacking the firing drawbacks last time I saw it fire. In SFB it fires once per impulse. In SFC the damn thing seems to fire almost everything at once.

if you are truely adamant about it I'd be willing to comprimise and add a Ph-3 with the same firing arc as the respective D-Rack. it's not much firepower but a D isn't exactly a powerful offensive weapon.

As far as the Lyrans; how are they in an any worse boat than the other races with energy weapons? If they wish to have drone ships than they should hook up with a klingon player and run joint missions. That would solve their problem without introducing drones to the Lyran ships.

One note I will make is that the Lyrans, in SFB, use klingon DRONE armed fighters on their carriers. If the Klingon ships are retained I would sort of prefer if the ships that are normally rather limited production (drone ships and the large capital ships like the C7) not be added to the Lyran fleet.

[FatherTed]

Boy, I'm way up past my bedtime!

I'm surprised the CFS(+) is even being discussed because I had no idea they were in the shiplist. I don't think I've ever seen one in a campaign before because it's pretty useless against anybody with a pulse. The ridiculous arcs and power curve on that thing make it silly to even try and take one on a patrol where you might possibly run into somebody flying anything like a D5 or Sparrowhawk, IMO. The only possible use for it, as far as I can see, is in base assaults against AI, where you can whirl around and proxie it to death.

The Lyrans with drone racks is a bit of a stretch, but in SFB, they did use Klink fighters, and they definitely could use the help on planet assaults.

Roms with drones is OTT, on the other hand. They're a big enough pain in the *** as it is.

I can't comment on the Tholians, since I have no idea what they're carrying. Are they able to use any form of web? It just ain't a Tholian without it.

All in all, though, I would say that we can tweak the list as needed before it goes live if we get the dl. Dizzy has poured so much time and effort into this that I hope we can fix the things that need it quickly and get on with the fun.  
   

[Cleaven]

Quote:


Romulan

R-CR

Romluans with drone racks are a major balance no-no. Remove the drone rack and phaser 2s. The romulans never used ph-2s.

The SPZ is back to the 6 plasma-F config and should be reduced back to the 4 F's it would have if you replaced the S.  

This is wrong. In SFB Romulan ships such as the K5R retain their Type II phasers in the RX arc positions.  

[Dan]

Ditzy's Neo-Tholian CA:

Designation: T-NCA
BPV: 157 (This BPV is VERY, VERY low. Should be about 180)
Crew: 49
Marines: 12
Shield 1: 30
Shield 2 & 6: 24
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 150

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: D
Total Warp Power: 30
Impulse Power: 5
Aux Power: 2
Total Engine Power: 35
Battery: 4

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Shuttles: 6

4x Disruptor 4 (FA)
2x Hellbore (FA)
9x Phaser 1 (3 FH. 3 RS. 3 LS)
6x Phaser 3 (4 RX. 1 RS. 1 LS)

------------------------------------------------------

Correct Neo-Tholian CA (2 webcasters replaced with 4 Ph-1s instead of 4 dsiruptors to preserve power curve)

 SSD for Neo-Tholian Avenger-Class Heavy Crusier

Designation: Z-NCA
BPV: 160
Crew: 52.5
Marines: 15
Shield 1: 30
Shield 2 & 6: 24
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 150

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: B
Total Warp Power: 30
Impulse Power: 5
Aux Power: 2
Total Engine Power: 35
Battery: 4

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Mech Tractors: 0
Shuttles: 4
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 3 (FA)
11x Phaser 1 (3 FH. 4 FA (Replacing casters). 2 RS. 2 LS)
6x Phaser 3 (2 RA+R, 2 RA+L, 1 RS, 1 LS)
 

[mbday]

Dan,

  Now why do you what to do this. It sounds to like you what the server the way you what it.
Dizzy is not the only one that has worked on the ship list. Sure Dizzy is running the server but he is not the only one that has worked to put this togather.   I do remember seeing a post were Dizzy had ask you to help with this server before and you blew him off. Now after knowing his is away from the interner you what to help. I got to ask were was your help when it was asked for.

Sorry but this is how I feel. You what this server to be the way you what it now that Dizzy is not here to say any thing to you about it. Take this stuff and wait till he gets back and show it to him not here on the forums. Nit till he has a change to look at it and responed to you.

[Dan]

No.

He asked me for my opintion in the other thread so I'm giving it.

The Tholians I sort of take personally when someone does drastic changes on. Particuarly when they are going to add them to a server using my models (which; for the record, I prefer to be copper like they are supposed to be)

[mbday]

Ok I will give you that. But you could have at the lest waited till he gets back let him know what you have found and talk it over with him. Not here not now not when he is unable to say any thing about what he was planing.

[JMM]

I fail to see why Dan CANNOT post his views, after all we are a community, and everyone has a right to speak, or so I was told.

We have few enough players compared to a year and a half ago, let's not get mad at each other for our views or comments and make people want to leave. No, I'm not perfect either, Dog and Mog and others can testify I have done my share of public bitching, but I've learned to chill, and want everyone to stay and enjoy the game.

Darn I miss the days of CW 3 and the enrollment of hundreds of people! No lack of action on that campaign, no sirrreeee...  

[mbday]

Quote:
I fail to see why Dan CANNOT post his views, after all we are a community, and everyone has a right to speak, or so I was told.

We have few enough players compared to a year and a half ago, let's not get mad at each other for our views or comments and make people want to leave. No, I'm not perfect either, Dog and Mog and others can testify I have done my share of public bitching, but I've learned to chill, and want everyone to stay and enjoy the game.

Darn I miss the days of CW 3 and the enrollment of hundreds of people! No lack of action on that campaign, no sirrreeee...  

There is one thing of doing this like this when the person is here to defend them shlef and there thought as to why they did something they way they did. It is another to not answer up and say yes I will help till they are not here and then start posting this is wrong that is wrong. Dan knew Dizzy had loeft town and would be away from the computer. Instead of saying to him shelf I have found things I do not like about what Dizzy has done but Dizzy is not here. Let me wait till he gets back and start posting this info then. He is doing it now. I'm not asking that he not post. I just asking that he wait till Dizzy is here to give his thought as to way he did something. I'm not whating to run any one off. Just the opsetof that. I'm just asking that Dan wait till Dizzy is here so we can find out what Dizzys idea was as to why he did so of the ships the way he did. Now if that is to much to ask for? Is that trying to run any one off?
And can you understand that?
 

[jimmi7769]

Quote:
Does double drone control apply to drone-based variants?  I assume so, then it seems quite sensible in one regard to assign double control to a ship with a drone rack outload consistent with a drone variant eventhough it may not be a drone variant.  

Now, don't we want to see this implemented my Klingon borthers?!!?!?!?

Give that C8 the channels it needs to fire it's drone racks!!!!

As for the F-DNH having 12 drone control, it shouldn't(per sfb) but then again the K-C10K with it's 8 drone racks doesn't appear to have double drone contol in SFB either, which is silly.

Gorns need those Plasma D's for drone defense(roms do to) While "Historically" they never fought against drones much, here in D2 land they do.

Lyrans need all the help they can get on planetary(and base) assaults.  The other energy races don't have the same problem it's a D2 fact.

I figured the tholians would be a mess.  Oh well, on the first day out with a new pair of shoes you trip a lot right??


Ans as has been said many times many wasys.....Merry christma.......err this ain't SFB.  And coming from me a staunch SFB'er thats quite a leap of faith.

[Harold Nez]

Quote:

Lyran:
The Klingon ships within the Lyran inventory are curious but need to be converted to Lyrn tech. No drone racks.

The EGO, as always, isn't a popular ship.

That's there partly because I asked--based, of course on the history of ours servers.   In fact, many initial changes that I was aware of, by the development forum and e-mails with Diz, are based, not on a rules set per se, but on a year or two of continous play and D2 veteran's input.  I see what you are saying, but please do try these mods.  See you out there.
--Harry  

[Farfarer]

...and what about all those tweaked up Klingon uber-ships?  eh?  How come no ones mentioning those?

oh wait...there aren't any hehehe  

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:

Quote:
I fail to see why Dan CANNOT post his views, after all we are a community, and everyone has a right to speak, or so I was told.

We have few enough players compared to a year and a half ago, let's not get mad at each other for our views or comments and make people want to leave. No, I'm not perfect either, Dog and Mog and others can testify I have done my share of public bitching, but I've learned to chill, and want everyone to stay and enjoy the game.

Darn I miss the days of CW 3 and the enrollment of hundreds of people! No lack of action on that campaign, no sirrreeee...  

There is one thing of doing this like this when the person is here to defend them shlef and there thought as to why they did something they way they did. It is another to not answer up and say yes I will help till they are not here and then start posting this is wrong that is wrong. Dan knew Dizzy had loeft town and would be away from the computer. Instead of saying to him shelf I have found things I do not like about what Dizzy has done but Dizzy is not here. Let me wait till he gets back and start posting this info then. He is doing it now. I'm not asking that he not post. I just asking that he wait till Dizzy is here to give his thought as to way he did something. I'm not whating to run any one off. Just the opsetof that. I'm just asking that Dan wait till Dizzy is here so we can find out what Dizzys idea was as to why he did so of the ships the way he did. Now if that is to much to ask for? Is that trying to run any one off?
And can you understand that?
 

Nice sentiments, Day...but Dizzy's a big boy.  He can handle it.  I think people will start treating Dizzy with kid gloves right about the time he does the same thing with someone else for the first time, eh?  


As JMM says...this is a community and we all have the priviledge to give our opinions until some moderator or forum admin says otherwise.    Part of the fun in these fora is discussion the different topics at hand and if we always waited until someone was around to respond, well...I think you get my drift.


Dizzy will have things to say on these issues when he gets back.  Untill then, there's nothing wrong with commenting on Dan's observations as long as it's done within the rules of these fora set forth by the admins and policed by the moderators.


.

[Kortez]

Quote:
The DNH has double drone control in SFC without having paid the BPV bump for it. If it had the BPV bump for it, it wouldn't be QUITE as bad.

The REASON the CFS is underpowered in your mind is because it's carrying around the firepower of most dreadnoughts. From a cruiser stand point it's very well powered at 36 (CFS) or 42 (CFS+ only 2 years later).

The reason I mention SFB is because it is extreamly useful in regards to balance. The ships are playtested by many people and revised to be balanced within their class.

As for delaying the server that really isn't an issue. It's better to finish the files before the server starts than after.

As far as the intent of the various ships; your right. I don't know who ment what with each ship. All I have to look at is the stats for the ships. And you know what? I couldn't care less what the intent was for the ships if they are so bloody unbalanced compared to their class that they would autokill something two sizes bigger.

Using "Well there are already cheesy ships in the game..." as an excuse for adding more is such a poor excuse it's not even remotely amusing.

The Tholian ships Ditzy added barely even remotely resemble the Tholian ships that are in the source material. If Ditzy really wants to play the THolians than he should not use his own tweaked versions, a good number of which outclass the other races ships of the same type.

Bitch and complain about me all you like. I'm used to people not liking me and there isn't anything you can say or do that can compare to what I have to put up with in reality or what I've put up with in the past.  

I support game balance.  If it takes longer, then let it take longer!
 

[Hondo_8]

Quote:
Without seeing the shiplist...

I think the Drone equipt Lyrans might be there to give them a leg up on assault missions. They have always had issues in that department and this might be an atempt at a possible cure. Another one from the past is an assualt script allowing them to commission a drone armed pirate to assist them.

OTOH, drone armed Rommies? Our shortcomming (compared to the western powers) is in AI kill times, esp in early and early-mid era. If we're to get help in that area, I would rather see an earlier introduction of some crippled INTs and the casual PFT variants. A KEF or KRCSF (or even a WEF or KRCF?) with a pair of (1) plas-F INTs would go through AI like the drone/fighter races, but would offer little threat to a real live human until the kill shot.

As for the Ph-2s on Rom ships, I don't recall what ADB did with the Kestral refits, but Taldren's stock Kestrals do use Ph2s as does the Snipe-P; so there is precident.  

Dont know if this Idea is acceptable but what about a shared shiplist with the Klingons? for Early era to help with mission times? Or just throw in a few Klink ships for mission times?

[The_Infiltrator]

Quote:
Dan,

  Now why do you what to do this. It sounds to like you what the server the way you what it.
Dizzy is not the only one that has worked on the ship list. Sure Dizzy is running the server but he is not the only one that has worked to put this togather.   I do remember seeing a post were Dizzy had ask you to help with this server before and you blew him off. Now after knowing his is away from the interner you what to help. I got to ask were was your help when it was asked for.

Sorry but this is how I feel. You what this server to be the way you what it now that Dizzy is not here to say any thing to you about it. Take this stuff and wait till he gets back and show it to him not here on the forums. Nit till he has a change to look at it and responed to you.  

Brez is a ADB playtester, a very experienced tholian and kzinti player, and has been playing this game for much longer than you. He has a better understanding of these problems and you should at least hear him out.

I don't have the list in front of me, but it would be nice if every race had their DNL's, and the hydrans had the Regent as they're supposed to. Speaking of the Regent (as pointed out in the first post) and all hydran DN's for that matter, they have RWX/LWX gatling arcs in SFB. The LWX arc is broken and doesn't work in SFC. Considering that the RS/LS arc is the closest thing to those, I'd recommend these arcs.

[Lepton1]

Quote:
Ditzy's Neo-Tholian CA:

Designation: T-NCA
BPV: 157 (This BPV is VERY, VERY low. Should be about 180)
Crew: 49
Marines: 12
Shield 1: 30
Shield 2 & 6: 24
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 150

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: D
Total Warp Power: 30
Impulse Power: 5
Aux Power: 2
Total Engine Power: 35
Battery: 4

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Shuttles: 6

4x Disruptor 4 (FA)
2x Hellbore (FA)
9x Phaser 1 (3 FH. 3 RS. 3 LS)
6x Phaser 3 (4 RX. 1 RS. 1 LS)

------------------------------------------------------

Correct Neo-Tholian CA (2 webcasters replaced with 4 Ph-1s instead of 4 dsiruptors to preserve power curve)

 SSD for Neo-Tholian Avenger-Class Heavy Crusier

Designation: Z-NCA
BPV: 160
Crew: 52.5
Marines: 15
Shield 1: 30
Shield 2 & 6: 24
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 150

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: B
Total Warp Power: 30
Impulse Power: 5
Aux Power: 2
Total Engine Power: 35
Battery: 4

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Mech Tractors: 0
Shuttles: 4
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 3 (FA)
11x Phaser 1 (3 FH. 4 FA (Replacing casters). 2 RS. 2 LS)
6x Phaser 3 (2 RA+R, 2 RA+L, 1 RS, 1 LS)
 

I think you may have misspoken earlier in terms of what the dizzies are standing in for.   If you look at the SSD for the neo-tholian heavy cruiser, you will see that you yourself have replaced the PARTICLE CANNONS with disruptors.  The damage stats on those are virtually identical to the disruptor.  The dizzes are there to replace the particle cannons in Dizzie's T-NCA not the webcasters.  The hellbores were to be modified to be the webcasters.  This last bit of info was delivered by Scipio or Karnak (I forget which) earlier to you in another thread.  So as far as I can see there is nothing wrong with Dizzie's T-NCA except that the webcasters need to be swapped out for phaser 1s since the casters were not able to be implemented this time around.  Perhaps if you stopped and thought a moment, this would have been clear to you.   If that is your best example of an unbalanced ship or wrong ship in his shiplist, you are going to have to do better than that.

[Dan]

And perhaphs if you stopped and asked quesitons first you wouldn't end up with your foot in your mouth when I have to correct your information.

The ship shown is the Home Galaxy version. The only difference between the Home galaxy and the Milky way version is that the PCs are range 30 disruptors in the milky way.

Ditzy replaced each web caster with a Hellbore AND a Ph-1.

He made the turn mode two steps wrong and drasticly altered the weapons arcs.

Hell, the only THolian ship with a D turnmode is the battleship.

Are you gong to spout off any more rubbish Lepton?

[Lepton1]

Indeed, people who know me know that is what I do best.  You've got all the experience and knowledge on your side.  Fine!

I don't give a rat's ass what the home galaxy/ milky yada yada is.  

What??!! He altered some arcs on some phaser 3's!!!  Ouch!!!!  

HEHE!! This is fun.  

Look, why don't you just make up the proper ships with your explanations, send it off to Dizzy, and let's be done with my idiocy!!  Good Luck to you!!

[Damaged]

Brez> THANK YOU.

I'm so sick of seeing unbalanced and just plain idiotic shiplist mods for Dyna. It's great to see someone that works with ADB getting involved, even if it's just out of anger I hope you'll stick around, the so-called "Shiplist Council" (or whatever they call themselves now) desperately needs a swift kick in the arse.

I especially like your comment on using multi-race coop instead of trying to mix racial systems on the same boat... that's the same simple and obvious solution I offered way back when...  

Of course, most of this wouldn't be necessary if it wasn't for Taldren's ineptitude at implementing the SFB game engine... i.e. AI has no drone defense (leading to quick AI kills / quick mission times for drone races), both fighters and PF's are needed for all races to fill the gaps (example: Lyrans need Klink drone fighters), and fleet control not working (to allow escorts to provide point defense for large capital ships instead of adding PD to all DNs   ).

I think the combined shiplist will go a long way toward balancing the Dyna, without any ship modifications.

As far as Klingon modifications go, all we need is our correct boom phaser arcs and corrected drone costs.The Klinks have been screwed by inflated drone costs since SFC1, and look at the ladder leagues - no Mirak fleets! Not surprising considering everyone wants to play late era and drone races can't get fast drones without facing a ship 2 hull classes larger.

Ah well, here's hoping SFC4:GAW will fix these obvious problems that should have been taken care of in SFC1 beta.

Thanks again Brez.

D6
 

[NannerSlug]

okay.. someone pointed me this this direction and i will say only this.. you might have a point or two.. you maybe correct or not.. (all this is purely subjective) the most important thing here, in my unimportant and completely irrelevent view point, is that this is dizzy's server. if you dont like it, you dont have to participate.  i fully expect to see any ship list produced by anyone (including adb - they are no better than anyone else) to have flaws with it. the main issue here, in my view, is the vision put forth by the server producer.

if it is dizzy's intentions to be exactly like sfb - they he should consult you out the wazoo.. (at least if he is smart..) however if it is somthing else, then that is completely upto him. people should be allowed to share their vision of this game through mods and campaigns as they like. the people playing them should have the ability to participate or not participate as they like as well. its a mutal thing.

ill wonder back into my corner of the galaxy now.

p.s. brez.. you know i respect you and your ship list abilities.. that said, common sense should prevail with the F-DNH and the K-C10k concerning double drone control.. but that is MY view, which is completely subjective.

[DH123]

Quote:
Brez> THANK YOU.

I'm so sick of seeing unbalanced and just plain idiotic shiplist mods for Dyna. It's great to see someone that works with ADB getting involved, even if it's just out of anger I hope you'll stick around, the so-called "Shiplist Council" (or whatever they call themselves now) desperately needs a swift kick in the arse.  

What he said . . .
 

[DH123]

HUGE ISSUE!

Split harpoints on the Plasma PFs.  it is the exact same thing from AOTK.  PFs fire ALL plasma Fs at once as opposed to 2 at a time like they are designed to in SFC and are only allowed to in SFB.

What is with the pirate ships?  

[Kortez]

Quote:
okay.. someone pointed me this this direction and i will say only this.. you might have a point or two.. you maybe correct or not.. (all this is purely subjective) the most important thing here, in my unimportant and completely irrelevent view point, is that this is dizzy's server. if you dont like it, you dont have to participate.  i fully expect to see any ship list produced by anyone (including adb - they are no better than anyone else) to have flaws with it. the main issue here, in my view, is the vision put forth by the server producer.

if it is dizzy's intentions to be exactly like sfb - they he should consult you out the wazoo.. (at least if he is smart..) however if it is somthing else, then that is completely upto him. people should be allowed to share their vision of this game through mods and campaigns as they like. the people playing them should have the ability to participate or not participate as they like as well. its a mutal thing.

ill wonder back into my corner of the galaxy now.

p.s. brez.. you know i respect you and your ship list abilities.. that said, common sense should prevail with the F-DNH and the K-C10k concerning double drone control.. but that is MY view, which is completely subjective.  

Brez, I recommend you feel free to post your opinions. You don't need Nanner's permission to do so.

Why are you back here, Nanner?  Your opinion on the D2 was well documented before you left.
 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:

Quote:
Brez> THANK YOU.

I'm so sick of seeing unbalanced and just plain idiotic shiplist mods for Dyna. It's great to see someone that works with ADB getting involved, even if it's just out of anger I hope you'll stick around, the so-called "Shiplist Council" (or whatever they call themselves now) desperately needs a swift kick in the arse.  

What he said . . .
   

Except for the fact that there is not any "Shiplist Council" or any organized group of people anywhere in this game creating shiplists and there hasn't been for some time.  I wonder how many MORE times I have to say that before even the most thick-headed of you finally get it.  Kick yourselves in the arse...it will do more good.  


Each and every shiplist that has EVER been used in this game, aside from the default shiplist (and perhaps even that), is the work of ONE individual on his own.  They do it to be creative and to offer some variety.  Sometimes, they don't match SFB!  OH MY!


SFC is not SFB.  It's an adaptation of SFB.  SFB should be used as a reasonable guideline for SFC.  Not a freaking end-all, be-all rulebook.  SFB cannon is a good place to start when looking for idea on how things should work or what should exist.  It seems to me that there's plenty of room to be creative beyond SFB cannon.


Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  


 

[SSCF_Paladin]

Hmm... AOTK PF plasmas, and the roms get drones?  Umm..  those could cause some problems.

[Kortez]

Quote:
Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  

Until Dizzy says he is not interested in hearing any comments on his ships, that he won't change anything, is not interested in any ship commentary, that we will play what he gives us and for everyone to STFU, people have the right to post their opinions.  I am not interested in hearing speculation.  Speculation is not fact.  If Dizzy wants to post his dogma, he can.

Then people can decide if SG3 is for them or not.  I still think Brez has the right to post his opinions on the shiplist.  I stand by that comment.

 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Don't get me wrong, Kortez...I totally agree...and pretty much said the same thing earlier in this thread.  I'm just talking about people just bagging on something because it's not SFB.  I know you and others are not doing this, but there are some that are and I think it's an important point to make.  An "author" of a server is embarking on a creative process.  Sometimes, that process is going to stray into new and...*gasp*..non-SFB-cannon areas.  


Again..yes..comment, critique and question away...that's one of the fun things about these fora and this process, at least in my opinion.  


 

[NannerSlug]

kortez.. you missed the point completely.. you are right in everything you said (brez has a right to say stuff). there is nothing wrong with that at all!

my only point was that without dizzy saying what his intentions might or might not be. if dizzy was aiming for sfb perfections, then he should listen to brez. i can find no one better to guide such an effort. what if he wasnt, though?

dogmatix is 100% correct in what he was saying..  i might add that every ship list will always be unbalanced in some way, fashion or form. its sorta like picking your poision. but hey, that is why you have modded servers.. and people can play on a server if they like it, or they can pass. it is completely upto them.

[Green]

Real quick.  I've had the priviliage of playing Tholian on the SG3 test server.  They are NOT a dominant race.  The mirak do much better against AI.  Though I haven't had the opportunity to play a tholian vs a human, I do not think they will do too well.  

Tholian = T-Bombs and Capturing.

Now, all the above are stated w/o seeing what the Tholian PFs will do (cause a CTD whenever they r launched).

[JMM]

I'm gonna have to vote no to the split hardpoints on the rom P/Fs plasma launchers, even if I fly them that is still way too much. I flew with the Roms, and they are great guys just like most others, and I want the Roms to have a pp farmer and new toys, but no uber p/fs please! I am not the most incompetent person, and not once, not twice, but three times i lost a 3 ship squadron from Hades to one lonely THV with the p/fs from Hades!

If anyone is interested, I really see no need to super modify any ships, only slight mods or maybe a new class, but let's not get design happy.

As dogmatix can say, we have been there, done that...

Darn I miss my Fafsa game and spec books, they had some pretty good ships, like the Baker class destroyer, chandley frigate, and a photon cruiser that shot all photons in FA, not to just the left side!  

[Kortez]

Well, then it sounds like we, Nanner, Dogmatix, and myself, are in agreement.

I don't know what Dizzy's goals are either, for the record.  I do support the server creator's right to do it his way, ultimately.  That is part of what makes play on the dyna fun.

BTW, I am getting T-bombed way outside of range 5 by the AI.
 

[CptCastrin]

I'd be interested in hearing Dan's opinions on the OP+ shiplist.

Doesn't include Tholians and others ... yet.  

[Karnak]

Quote:
I'm gonna have to vote no to the split hardpoints on the rom P/Fs plasma launchers, even if I fly them that is still way too much. I flew with the Roms, and they are great guys just like most others, and I want the Roms to have a pp farmer and new toys, but no uber p/fs please! I am not the most incompetent person, and not once, not twice, but three times i lost a 3 ship squadron from Hades to one lonely THV with the p/fs from Hades!

 

For the next dyna after SG3, check out the ISC Inv. shiplist. NW posted an online version  on his website. The Rom and Gorn plasma PFs don't have any split hardpoints. A certain feddie called  DH made sure of that, hehe.

 I agreed with him.

[Dizzy]

Lot to read here. Some of it is better than the action sequences in a few books I have read... This whole thread kept me on the edge of my seat, I just couldnt wait to get to the next post, hehe.

First issue:

 

Nanner mentioned that this is my server. Yes, and he is right it is my server. And if you dont like it, go piss up a French flagpole. But withouth the players, it doesnt much matter who's server it is if noone plays it, so I will happily take critizisms and differeing viewpoints on all matters.... this thread happily being about unbalanced ships

Second issue: Dan.

 

Brez, I am glad you finally came out of the closet. We were all wondering 'when' it was going to happen... I take credit

I'm glad  that you are here, leading the 'canon' sfb charge for the thols, but I asked for your help EARLY on, not after I did all the work and certainly not right before the servers starting... But hey... you never did have good timing. Mb thats why you lost all those engagements to me... Better late than never.

I have heard a few 'issues' with the tholians. So let me address a few here and I suppose we shall just continue till we are all satisfied and launch the server, or Karnak gets fed up with the delay and launches his. So here we go:

Everything I did this server was for a reason, and as such I am willing to spend a few sentences (time) on each issue, server start time permitting.

Now first off, the Thols wont be canon, not in the least. With source code to the game and a lot of code work (and a nice fat check to Tracey G.), possibly, but even with a port over to OP, there would be major adaptability problems.

Second, a few have mentioned 'BPV' issues with ship cost relative to their loadout or configurations... Basically, Taldren tied too many things to BPV to really get it to work for any specific use. The only thing I have managed to use BPV for in SG3 (and I suspect all future servers will follow suit) is use it to match up AI and for shiploss. Anything else is irrelevant. So ALL BPV's have been altered in some form or fashion. GS or GZ players may see a need for BPV, but I say pick a race, class and the number of ships and lets leave the BPV at 9999...

That being said... Fire away brez.

Other issue was with the PF's... There is a LOT of shipwrights influence in this shiplist. PF's not being one of them. I am fairly certain AOTK was the source in this case. I'm not an expert here, and was always suspicious of why the PF's had split F harpoints (Seems to me that a human PF pilot could really deal some confusion using so many available psuedos...). What would be the difference if the PF's had them in one HP? Obviously there would be arc issues, but what else?

Anything else is appreciated, but keep in mind, I will not change everything, and Brez, at this stage of the game, you may want to call the tholians dizzians, as I doubt they will ever meet your satisfaction given your ADB background in this politically incorrect sfc world... I will however, warmly greet 'suggestions' you might have, especially about them being 'unbalanced' and consider altering them, slightly or drastically given the appropriateness of the change.

Nice comment on kid gloves, Dog. I liked that







 

[Dan]

Basic translation:

"I want tholians as long as I get to just make them up how I like them and ignore how they are supposed to be"

Thats rubbish.

You want a race of ships that you custom designed inste4ad of a race that was already designed with it's own perks and flaws. Your "tholians" have very few flaws considering their abundance of weapons with very wide arcs.

You don't want to use the real Tholian ships? Give me a bloody good reason why not. I'm not playing on this server until the THolians are actually the Tholians and not your own personal excuse to RM your own pet uber race.

My suggestion?

Remove every tholian ship you custom designed and put the correct ship in.

[Dizzy]

lol Brez...

Ok, lets take the arcs. The Ph-3's... they are supposed to be RA+R and LA+L, or something, right?

Well, those arcs do not work in SFC. So I had to compromise. You tell me a work around and I will attempt it.

Redoing the whole Tholian mod wont work, but possibly grouping type cjhanges and ship by ship alterations will.

I'll not subscribe to your generalized selfish interpretations of what you think my attitude is for my server, but I will tell you that I will try to work with you. But you need to work with me.

Perhaps like I illustrated with the arc problem, there are similar problems to overcome in other areas ( EDIT : due to the limitations of SFC), so lets discuss them. But lets start of with the arcs, mb?

EDIT: Like i said earlier, there are reasons I did what I did. I am open to your ideas.

[FPF_TraceyG]

Quote:

Second, a few have mentioned 'BPV' issues with ship cost relative to their loadout or configurations... Basically, Taldren tied too many things to BPV to really get it to work for any specific use. The only thing I have managed to use BPV for in SG3 (and I suspect all future servers will follow suit) is use it to match up AI and for shiploss. Anything else is irrelevant. So ALL BPV's have been altered in some form or fashion. GS or GZ players may see a need for BPV, but I say pick a race, class and the number of ships and lets leave the BPV at 9999...

   

Most of the mCreateShip methods found in the scripting API use a BPV parameter passed to them in order to generate the ship. Most noteably, the one that doesn't require a BPV value, is the one used to create player ships which instead has passed to it parameters regarding the actual player ship(s) itself. The latter is sometimes referred to as 'hardcoding' since the exact ship to be created is being specified and must therefore exist in the shiplist. Nevertheless, by and large, in most instances, the method used to create AI ships requires a BPV parameter and the game engine will then do it's best to find a match in the shiplist. Clearly then, it is important that the BPV values of ships are carefully balanced and that significant attention is given to them.
Regardless of the differences between SFB and SFC, as a measure of the relative combat strengths between ships, the BPV system is still the best that we have inorder to calculate this. It's not perfect, and a discussion on this point alone deserves far more justice than can be done here in this thread, but to do change or modify the BPV of ships, will have a serious effect on the game, especially in regard to AI ship generation. The ultimate measure however, has always been playtesting and SFB does have 20 more years experience up it's sleave than does SFC and is by far, the best and foremost guide we have to go by.
As an example, (I don't know if Dizzy is using the mission or not, he hasn't asked me for the completed version as yet), I wrote a Pirate Base Assault that generates Orion AI ships to defend a base. The base had two defence platforms, one ship defending (matched to the attacking player's primary vessel) and two other smaller 'reinforcement' Orion ships as well as a few freighters. I used the same formula for calculating prestige bonus awards as for the patrols I wrote which are based upon the relative BPV strengths of the opposing fleets. The stronger the opposing fleet, the higher the reward and vice versa. Now, in actually playing the mission itself, an Orion Base Station has no Ph-IV's, just about for any cruiser, it's a fairly easy kill. Although helpful, the defence platforms really don't do much and are more for technical accuracy. The Orion ships defending the base are matched to the player's fleet, and so the mission difficulty itself is not really that high. And yet, upon completing the mission, my prestige formula awarded well over 1000 pp. Upon inspection of the relative BPV strengths of both sides, the Orion team had a total BPV of more than twice the player team, but clearly, its combat effectiveness did not match. Upon closer inspection, I discovered that the defence platforms had a BPV of 50 each, the freighters had nearly 100 each, around 120 for the base, and when you add in the Orion ships, it comes to quite a tidy sum.
When comparing these BPV's to their SFB counterparts, I found that the Orion ship values had all been inflated by not just a bit, but quite a lot. Defence platforms in SFB only have a BPV of 20, Orion Slaver's around 60, and so on, but no changes have been made to them between SFB to SFC. Arguments aside that SFC is not SFB, it is playtesting here in SFC that supports the SFB BPV paradigm, and as a rule of thumb, where this is deviated from should start alarm bells ringing and alert us to the fact that we are likely to have a problem somewhere if it is ignored. Given that SFC is NOT SFB, reinforces the argument that even more attention and careful scrutiny be given to the BPV of ships and bases and anything else in the game, in order to ensure we don't upset the applecart.
 

[mbday]

I have to ask Dan hav you flown these ships or are you just looking at the ship list?
I can say that I have flown them and they are not as unblanced as you seam to think.
Stop looking at the Ship list and get in to one and see how it is. The ship list does not tell all.
Also do not try them on GSA or in Solo play. Get on the server with the server download and try them out.
When you have one of the Tholian ships upagainst tweo other ships you might look at it a diffrent way.

  I like the input Dan gave me something to look at when I was able to fly them. BUt please check them out on the server you might think they are ok.

[EschelonOfJudgement]

The Andor (if I understand correctly) is based on a FASA design, and I'm sure the stats were influenced more by the FASA specs than how it should fit into SFB.  As such, whether it is underpowered or on the wrong size hull should be taken into context.  If it can't fight it's way out of a paper bag, then I'm sure players will leave it in the docks... and if it is a cheese ship, that will become apparent shortly.

As for some of the other points, well the game is now underway so hopefully more clarity will emerge in the coming days.  As for Tholians carrying Hellbores... well these are Dizzy's Tholians, and SG3 has a different history than Canon SFB... I can come up with a couple of reasons for them having Hellbores (Tech exchange with the Hydrans or Orions?).  This certainly isn't a game breaker in any case, as long as the prestige required for the ships is in line with comparable designs...

As Taldren and others continuously like to remind us, though, this game is NOT SFB so we shouldn't expect things to necessarily be like they are in that game.  I'm still torqued over the magic photons, mostly because (IMHO) there was no real need for them.  But since Taldren had only a passing interest in keepng things closely in line with canon SFB (hence not completely benefitting from the play balance lessons learned in that game over three decades), well I lost interest.

This is a major reason why SFC III is not in my library - and from what I've read about gameplay in SFCIII, well my assessment of how much was being lost in the translation has been verified.  But I digress...

Nonetheless, any input given here will be helpful in future servers, so if a ship is imbalanced in game, then by all means bring it up so it can be resolved!  

A thought:  When I was statting Tholians for one of my own personal mods, I used X-Disruptors to replace the Web Casters (on a 1 for 1 basis) -as the damage/power/accuracy curve for one X-disruptor is similar to Web Fist mode (except that overloads throw this out of whack a bit).   While Disruptors can't be held, to be honest when I played SFB people usually weren't holding their web casters once the fight commenced - they were employing them as often as arming cycles would allow.  And for me, using X- Disruptors just seemed to fit in an odd way - an arcane technology that could only be produced in limited quantities... and which other races may have reverse engineered later when X ships  became available.

My thoughts anyways... have fun in SG3 people!  Maybe someday I'll get a chance to meet some of you in the Dyna...
   

[Dan]

I'm within about a hair of telling Ditzy to shove it and go make his own models for his server.

He doesn't have a THolian mod. He has one race of ships that he decided to just go ahead and "upgrade" when he didn't like how they looked.

Ditzy, the RAR and RAL arcs worked last time I knew. Even if they don't RX is not the solution.

Have fun on your server. I'm uninstalling SFC2 as I type this.

[Dizzy]

Quote:
I'm within about a hair of telling Ditzy to shove it and go make his own models for his server.

He doesn't have a THolian mod. He has one race of ships that he decided to just go ahead and "upgrade" when he didn't like how they looked.

Ditzy, the RAR and RAL arcs worked last time I knew. Even if they don't RX is not the solution.

Have fun on your server. I'm uninstalling SFC2 as I type this.  

RAR and RAL work. RWX and LWX do not...  Didnt the Tholians have  ph-3 RA arcs that also fire to the left and the other to the right side?

I didnt do much upgrading, dan. How far do I have to bend over backward to get you to understand I would like your help, not your attitude, please.

I did not take the liberty to completely redo every aspect of the tholians. So lets shy away from that ok? I did the best I could (without your expertise help I really needed and asked for at the outset) porting over the ships from the SSD's I could find. I admit to taking a few liberties here and there to make them 'fit' better in the sfc game.

I trust these 'liberties' I took are putting you off. I did them for a reason. Perhaps discussing the reason I made a change will help you understand why I made the change, and possibly have you agree or suggest a better change, if a change is necessary at all!

And I would also entertain your ideas on redoing some of these ships. Why dont you pick a thol cruiser of some type and post the ship-edit stats for it and I'll do the same for mine. Lets see which way our different experiences took them. Maybe we can find common ground.

And on a personal note, I think I get you here. You are so [censored] touchy about these tholians that you put notice to ppl they are on thin ice with you at there mere drop of a hat. Look, Brez, you have a whole website devoted to the Tholians... I get you that they are your babies and someone else is sticking them and your models on a trek server. If I were you, I'd be pissed if they [censored] it up. On the other hand, I'd jump at the chance to see it done right. So dude, chill out here and lets discuss this 'port'. The tholians I have are SFC playable and fairly balanced for this server. You say they arnt 'real' tholians. So lets discuss it. Okay? I get you man...  

[Dan]

no.

The Neo rear phaser arcs on RA+R and RA+L. THey are not the expanded arcs you list.

I'm really very anoyed that you totally altered the Tholian flavor into something else. Hellbores have no place on Tholian ships. Period. Ever. THey are primarily a phaser race. Disruptors and most other heavy weapons are an afterthought.

Hell, their bases have extra ph4s instead of heavy weapons (usually)

If you want to talk than use one of the IM programs.

AIM: Brezgonne
MSN: brezgonne@hotmail.com
ICQ: 61386281

[Fluf]

Well said Tracey and I agree totally.  Changing any BPV's must be carefully looked at and playtested.  I ran into this exact problem tonight.  Dizzy has bumped the BPV of most of the MIrak Drone Bombardment ships  such as the DF+, MDC+, and DWD almost 30 BPV in most cases.  I understand this as trying to balance the drone boats combat value and speed of missions.  However, with the types of missions and draws we face in SFC, this didnt work at all.  I flew the Z=DF+ for about 3 missions and ran from everyone and finally lost it.  Taking a frigate at 80 BPV and bumping it to 127BPV just doesnt work with the current missions and matching we have.  Its still a frigate with 12 point shields lol.   Try taking on 3 L-BC's and a L-NCE with a Z-DF+ and a F-DER and a Z-MEC sometime lol.  Hell the PF+'s killed me before the BC's even had a chance lol!   A 47 point BPV boost on a frigate is just not right.  I dont care what kinda drones you have on it.  I wouldnt even want to try a MDC+ at over 160 BPV now.  Cant imagine drawing 3 dreads in with that!  

[Dizzy]

cool, ill chat tomorrow with u.  I have yahoo IM. MSN doesnt work... I can get ICQ i suppose...

What about a GSA room?

I have to crash... Havent slept for a very lomg time.

Oh, and heard the part about your chick. Sorry. I had one that WRENCHED MY [censored] HEART OUT< THAT [censored] BITCH!

But Im over that now and found somwone else... Its tough, so hang in there dude...

Tomorrow!

[Dan]

apparently I have a yahoo account to since it accepted the UN and password.

ID: Brezgonne

[EschelonOfJudgement]

Dan,

I'm sorry that we are all making you so very frustrated over this.  And your input is valued by everyone.  Dizzy has had less than six hours since reading this thread to attempt to piece together what you are concerned about.  And judging by the events leading  up to the lauch of SG3, the demands on his time I'm sure have prevented him from focusing solely on the shiplist.

It appears that SG3 is in final testing mode, so input is still needed.  May I suggest that you post the Tholian section of the shiplist with the stats you feel they should have?  People can then compare them to what is in the pack and see exactly where you are coming from.  Not everyone has the Tholian SSD's you know... and few have the personal familiarity with them that you do.

I'm sure more than a few people are looking forward to seeing you play in the Dyna again.  You are most certainly considered welcome here, even though the fact that the standard "SFB versus SFC" mentality tends to get in the way sometimes.  So just be patient with the others here and keep trying to be constructive.  Remember the goal is to have a fun game, so let others benefit from your experience now - keeping in mind that their experience in working with D2 campaigns does count as well and should not be discounted out of hand.

Stay.  Fight for what you think is right.  All I ask is that everyone respects everyone else's right to have an opinion, and that everyone is willing to compromise for the sake of fairness and SFC play balance.

And I apologize for adding to your frustration.  I was only trying to help you understand some of the other facets of this discussion, not trying to make you feel unwelcome.  

EOJ
__________________

Dizzy,

May I suggest that you allow this discussion to continue a bit (as long as it is constructive), and do consider implementing the changes that are agreed to here.  If there is some reason that you chose to do a certain ship a certain way (that we bring up in this discussion), please point this out at the appropriate time so that everyone understands why.  It sounds like SG3 is a couple of days from final launch, so some last minute edits to the shiplist shouldn't be a big deal...

Besides, the Tholians are mostly untested, so bringing them a bit more closely in line with the SFB stats can't hurt - it's all reflected in the play balance, right?

Yes, I know that the SG3 has it's own server for discussing this, and that it was discussed there, but I think showing a little flexibility on this will attract more interest (and players) for the campaign.

I'll do my best to try to get into SG3 - depends on how my schedule works out.  I still regret missing SG2... and feel the need to fly ISC again.

EOJ






     

[Damaged]

Quote:

Dogmatix wrote:


Except for the fact that there is not any "Shiplist Council" or any organized group of people anywhere in this game creating shiplists and there hasn't been for some time.  I wonder how many MORE times I have to say that before even the most thick-headed of you finally get it.  Kick yourselves in the arse...it will do more good.  

Each and every shiplist that has EVER been used in this game, aside from the default shiplist (and perhaps even that), is the work of ONE individual on his own.  They do it to be creative and to offer some variety.  Sometimes, they don't match SFB!  OH MY!

SFC is not SFB.  It's an adaptation of SFB.  SFB should be used as a reasonable guideline for SFC.  Not a freaking end-all, be-all rulebook.  SFB cannon is a good place to start when looking for idea on how things should work or what should exist.  It seems to me that there's plenty of room to be creative beyond SFB cannon.

Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  

Who cares? Nice job of missing the point entirely and redirecting onto your own political agenda...

Did you copy and paste part of that from one of Nanner's old posts?

Oh and by the way Mr. "I hate FA disruptor boats and don't care about SFB", the fleet you claim to represent was started by an IC beta tester who was a stickler for SFB canon - and I'll bet he knew how to spell "canon" too.

Bite me, you half-breed petaQ!

D6
sole surviving Klingon Black Fleet founding member
 

[Soreyes]

Have to agree with Fluf. The mission matching is a mess. I flew 5 missions and mostly had my head handed to me.

I started off in a Z-DF+

Mission #1. Patrol vs. K-E4K and K-F6..... Won this one....150pp awarded......spent 173 to repair and rearm

Mission #2. Patrol vs. K-D5W and 2X K-E4K...... Got blown up

Mission #3. Sector Assalt. Z-DF+, F-NCL, F-FF vs. K-F6 and 2x K-F5K.......Won.......480pp Awarded..... Spent 113

Mission #4. Sector Assalt. Z-DF+, F-CA vs. 2x K-D5W, And 2x K-C7.......Got Blown Up

Mission #5. Patrol. Z-DWL vs 2x K-D5Ds......Got Blown Up

I believe that the Mission Matching needs a little Tweeking

Other things that I noticed while playing were: AI T-Bombing me from a range of 16?, Being hit for full damage by PH-3s at a range of 12?, AI ships have a very very fast phaser recharge rate.

I know this is a Test Server...... So I'll be back after work to test It some more

[The_Infiltrator]

Seems that most of this has to do with the DF. What about the DWL and other ships as shown above? Has anyone tried the normal kzinti frigate, the FFK, and seen what that is like?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Quote:

Quote:

Dogmatix wrote:


Except for the fact that there is not any "Shiplist Council" or any organized group of people anywhere in this game creating shiplists and there hasn't been for some time.  I wonder how many MORE times I have to say that before even the most thick-headed of you finally get it.  Kick yourselves in the arse...it will do more good.  

Each and every shiplist that has EVER been used in this game, aside from the default shiplist (and perhaps even that), is the work of ONE individual on his own.  They do it to be creative and to offer some variety.  Sometimes, they don't match SFB!  OH MY!

SFC is not SFB.  It's an adaptation of SFB.  SFB should be used as a reasonable guideline for SFC.  Not a freaking end-all, be-all rulebook.  SFB cannon is a good place to start when looking for idea on how things should work or what should exist.  It seems to me that there's plenty of room to be creative beyond SFB cannon.

Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  

Who cares? Nice job of missing the point entirely and redirecting onto your own political agenda...

Did you copy and paste part of that from one of Nanner's old posts?

Oh and by the way Mr. "I hate FA disruptor boats and don't care about SFB", the fleet you claim to represent was started by an IC beta tester who was a stickler for SFB canon - and I'll bet he knew how to spell "canon" too.

Bite me, you half-breed petaQ!

D6
sole surviving Klingon Black Fleet founding member
   

Bah!

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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<snip>


Nice comment on kid gloves, Dog. I liked that

   

Heh....I thought you might.    


Looking forward to to these Dizzians...  



 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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Second, a few have mentioned 'BPV' issues with ship cost relative to their loadout or configurations... Basically, Taldren tied too many things to BPV to really get it to work for any specific use. The only thing I have managed to use BPV for in SG3 (and I suspect all future servers will follow suit) is use it to match up AI and for shiploss. Anything else is irrelevant. So ALL BPV's have been altered in some form or fashion. GS or GZ players may see a need for BPV, but I say pick a race, class and the number of ships and lets leave the BPV at 9999...

   

<snip>


When comparing these BPV's to their SFB counterparts, I found that the Orion ship values had all been inflated by not just a bit, but quite a lot. Defence platforms in SFB only have a BPV of 20, Orion Slaver's around 60, and so on, but no changes have been made to them between SFB to SFC. Arguments aside that SFC is not SFB, it is playtesting here in SFC that supports the SFB BPV paradigm, and as a rule of thumb, where this is deviated from should start alarm bells ringing and alert us to the fact that we are likely to have a problem somewhere if it is ignored. Given that SFC is NOT SFB, reinforces the argument that even more attention and careful scrutiny be given to the BPV of ships and bases and anything else in the game, in order to ensure we don't upset the applecart.
 

Yes...for any of us who have actually flown as pirates over on the OP Dyna, we're well aware of the inflated BPVs of pirate ships.  In fact, they often have BPVs that place them one class above their "true" combat level, in my opinion.  On Rooks Tavern 3, this problem was mitigated by the Admins lowering the BPV of all pirate ships and bases rather substantially.  Even with these deductions, it is usually the case that a pirate light cruiser can stand toe-to-toe with an empire light cruiser, but the AI matching problem was at least ameliorated.

[Kortez]

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Seems that most of this has to do with the DF. What about the DWL and other ships as shown above? Has anyone tried the normal kzinti frigate, the FFK, and seen what that is like?  

Have you seen Miraki shiplists?  We get very few ships pilots feel they can fly with any chance for success.  Nobody is going to try the FFK, the FF, the FH, unless they are FORCED to fly them, due to mission loss and lack of prestige.

 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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Quote:

Dogmatix wrote:


Except for the fact that there is not any "Shiplist Council" or any organized group of people anywhere in this game creating shiplists and there hasn't been for some time.  I wonder how many MORE times I have to say that before even the most thick-headed of you finally get it.  Kick yourselves in the arse...it will do more good.  

Each and every shiplist that has EVER been used in this game, aside from the default shiplist (and perhaps even that), is the work of ONE individual on his own.  They do it to be creative and to offer some variety.  Sometimes, they don't match SFB!  OH MY!

SFC is not SFB.  It's an adaptation of SFB.  SFB should be used as a reasonable guideline for SFC.  Not a freaking end-all, be-all rulebook.  SFB cannon is a good place to start when looking for idea on how things should work or what should exist.  It seems to me that there's plenty of room to be creative beyond SFB cannon.

Nanner's right when he mentions that it's quite possible Dizzy wasn't going for SFB cannon.  Perhaps he was just being creative and building something he wanted to see?  Granted..in the interests of fairness in a campaign that so many expect so much fun from, we need to make sure things are tested and shown to be relatively balanced and fair.  

Who cares? Nice job of missing the point entirely and redirecting onto your own political agenda...

Did you copy and paste part of that from one of Nanner's old posts?

Oh and by the way Mr. "I hate FA disruptor boats and don't care about SFB", the fleet you claim to represent was started by an IC beta tester who was a stickler for SFB canon - and I'll bet he knew how to spell "canon" too.

Bite me, you half-breed petaQ!

D6
sole surviving Klingon Black Fleet founding member
   

You're a funny guy, D....especially when you talk about missing points.  


I do care about SFB.  I come from SFB.  I play this game because it is so much like SFB.  I'm just saying that SFB need not be the final arbiter when it comes to issues that arise and that it's okay to step outside that box from time to time.


I know and respect the people you're talking about.  They brought me into this fleet.  As for the rest of your cracks on me, well...whatever.  


If you have a problem with the way I "represent" then maybe you ought to get me tossed, eh?  


 

[Sfaret]

The true test of these ships will be in the play. The Tholains traditionally where not a true power race. They managed to just hold their own. Thier ships where very defensive in nature.  If the Tholians start overunning everone else then we know there is a balance issue.

Also has the conomies been able to be added to the servers? For instances the Tholians where not able to produce much in the way of ships due to limited economy and building capability. Will this be simuated in the server?

S'faret

[Dan]

Actually their ships aren't defensive. THeir tactics are. There is a considerable difference between the two.

[Sfaret]

Sorry Dan, you are correct. Their situation and economics where the most hindering factor for them. If I recall though where not their early ships all based of a police ship design. Thus making them inferior to the other races for the most part. It seems the only real advantage they had was the web since it allow them enormous control over movement in the battle.

S'faret

[Karnak]

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As an example, (I don't know if Dizzy is using the mission or not, he hasn't asked me for the completed version as yet), I wrote a Pirate Base Assault

We already have a misson-specific uber-hard Pirate Base mission done up for SG3 but, if you are interested in using yours in SG3,  email me this mission with the original mission specs.  and I'll take a look at it.  I'll need it by tomorrow at the latest if it has a chance of making SG3 production run.

[Dan]

your not honestly gonig to put up the non-testing server that soon are you? Hardly anything has been tested.

[Karnak]

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 I dont care what kinda drones you have on it. I wouldnt even want to try a MDC+ at over 160 BPV now. Cant imagine drawing 3 dreads in with that!  

No Karnak mission will spawn a DN AI.  I made the max ship class limit to be the Heavy BC class in all my missions.  In many cases, the secondary ship class max. limit is Light Cruiser.  A MDC+ will simply spawn a decent BC enemy AI.  We can also control whether the enemy AI can be a carrier or not. I made sure that you are never facing multiple carriers from any one enemy AI team.  

[Sten]

Dizzy,

I managed to put some testing time in this wekend. From a Lyran standpoint the mission matching seems to be okay so far. If anything maybe alittle to light. Considering I couldn't remember what key did what. I still managed to win 99% of my missions in the CWP I started with and am now running around in a  CWLP.

Worst mission matching I hit was a Mirak Carrier I haven't seen before, a BCH, a horde of DF frigates versus my CWLP a DWLP and a Klingon D-5 it wasn't pretty.

So so far on the Lyran side lookos okay to me.

[Kortez]

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Quote:
 I dont care what kinda drones you have on it. I wouldnt even want to try a MDC+ at over 160 BPV now. Cant imagine drawing 3 dreads in with that!  

No Karnak mission will spawn a DN AI.  I made the max ship class limit to be the Heavy BC class in all my missions.  In many cases, the secondary ship class max. limit is Light Cruiser.  A MDC+ will simply spawn a decent BC enemy AI.  We can also control whether the enemy AI can be a carrier or not. I made sure that you are never facing multiple carriers from any one enemy AI team.  

Be that as it may, the bumps to the drone ships are brutal.  The prices are not reduced, we don't get automatic replenishment of drones, drones are the easiest heavy weapon to defend against, and basically the Mirak are totally screwed now.
 

[Dizzy]

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 I dont care what kinda drones you have on it. I wouldnt even want to try a MDC+ at over 160 BPV now. Cant imagine drawing 3 dreads in with that!  

No Karnak mission will spawn a DN AI.  I made the max ship class limit to be the Heavy BC class in all my missions.  In many cases, the secondary ship class max. limit is Light Cruiser.  A MDC+ will simply spawn a decent BC enemy AI.  We can also control whether the enemy AI can be a carrier or not. I made sure that you are never facing multiple carriers from any one enemy AI team.  

Be that as it may, the bumps to the drone ships are brutal.  The prices are not reduced, we don't get automatic replenishment of drones, drones are the easiest heavy weapon to defend against, and basically the Mirak are totally screwed now.
 

Bombardment ships were not allowed to be flown solo on AOTK? I think I remember reading somewhere about the stringent CnC...

Anyways, the mirak wont be screwed... noone is getting screwed.  This is still a test server.  Besides, only Bombardment ships have been boosted to test AI draws, not the entire Mirak race... and bumping a bombardment ship or 2 doesnt screw anyone. Carriers have had a boost to include their fighters... None of this is new. I care about your opinion kortez, so keep it comming, just know that right now, this perception of the server isnt how it will be played out...
 
Read the bpv bump thread. It explains this more.

 

[DH123]

Quote:


Bombardment ships were not allowed to be flown solo on AOTK? I think I remember reading somewhere about the stringent CnC...


 

Solo Bombardment ships were permitted on AOTK.  Solo Escorts were not.

What CnC rules are being used?  

[TOCXOBearslayer]

Quote:
Federation:

FEDERATION PLAYERS HAVE BE BE AWARE THAT THEY CANNOT BUY ORION SHIPS.

The ADR "Andor"

This ship is so unbalanced it's not funny. 8 photon torpedoes and 6 ph-1s on light cruiser hull with 37+ power. I'd recommend it be totally removed or at the very least heavily modified. If ship is retained remove all but the FH phasers and remove the aft torpedeos. Increase movement cost to 1 but retain current power setup to represent the overloaded hull. In SFB this ship would have a single die shock rating and roll any time it fired more than 4 torpedoes.
 

Here are the FASA stats on the Andor ....

I already told Dizzy about this... and gave him my opinions in a previous thread that it was too powerful.  My suggestions were to drop shield strength, drop the phaser suite to Ph3's (and reduce to 2 phasers) and leave the rest alone.  

Dizzy replied that we will see how it works before any changes are made.

Hopefully, he will change it to be more like the FASA config....

In that configuration, It is an excellent anti-PF/plasma cruiser but it will never survive against Fighters and drones.

IIRC, Dizzy used the stats that I also DL'd from somewhere with FASA conversion and for the most part, they were way out of touch with reality.  If you care to look at them... email me, I will send them.

Here is the thread I am speaking about.... Andor & Chandley stats