Topic: Unbalanced ships in the SG3 shiplist (Read 7463 times)

Dan · « **on:** May 17, 2003, 11:22:09 pm »

First off I'd like to point out that this is all my personal opintion. I will also point out that I playtest for ADB and have some say on published ships (mostly Thols) and have gotten a few of my own ships published.

Federation:

FEDERATION PLAYERS HAVE BE BE AWARE THAT THEY CANNOT BUY ORION SHIPS.

The ADR "Andor"

This ship is so unbalanced it's not funny. 8 photon torpedoes and 6 ph-1s on light cruiser hull with 37+ power. I'd recommend it be totally removed or at the very least heavily modified. If ship is retained remove all but the FH phasers and remove the aft torpedeos. Increase movement cost to 1 but retain current power setup to represent the overloaded hull. In SFB this ship would have a single die shock rating and roll any time it fired more than 4 torpedoes.

F-CR

I dislike this ship since the phasers were added tot he FH arc insted of the side arcs.

F-DNH

SFB ship has single drone control.

F-CFS

AS always this ship is pure power gamed BS. 8 photons and double drone control on a cruiser hull is totally unreasonable.

Romulan

R-CR

Romluans with drone racks are a major balance no-no. Remove the drone rack and phaser 2s. The romulans never used ph-2s.

The SPZ is back to the 6 plasma-F config and should be reduced back to the 4 F's it would have if you replaced the S.

Gorn:

The entire refit that swaps out a couple ph3s for plasma-d racks needs to be changed from a balance standpoint. The standard procedure for such a refit is to replace the plasma-F's. Adding them outright like on the DNT is even worse. Plasma-D's ALWAYS have a 180 firing arc unless they are on bases.

Lyran:
The Klingon ships within the Lyran inventory are curious but need to be converted to Lyrn tech. No drone racks.

The EGO, as always, isn't a popular ship.

Hydran

The PAH is STILL not the right SFB ship.

THolian

Overall the buggiest race I looked at. The ships rarely match the real tholian ships and instead mostly look like someone looked at the Thols, wasn't satisfied so they added a bunch of other systems to the ship. Most of them need to be revised.

Lepton1 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2003, 01:32:26 am »

Lots of interesting well informed opinions I take it. Two points from my feeble mind. Any resemble between SFC and SFB is well let's say somewhat coincidental. I have heard it often expressed that the vagaries of a real-time game do not permit a strict adherence to SFB doctrine. Whether or not this is the case for any of the unpleasant ship modifications is beyond my abilities to determine.

Perhaps in some instances you are merely noting Taldren-established SFB discrepancies that have nothing to do with Dizzy's shiplist per se. The CFS is a case in point I think. Have you ever played this ship? It is severely underpowered for all its weaponry and quite difficult to manage in a world of speed 31 charging romulans, etc. Again whether or not the CFS is SFB canon seems less of the point. Rather it is, does the ship work in SFC? The CFS is in no sense an ubership and as such hardly seems unbalancing. Who plays this ship anyway??? No one I know except me which often leads people to say "Why didn't you just choose a BCF for the same bpv?"

Does double drone control apply to drone-based variants? I assume so, then it seems quite sensible in one regard to assign double control to a ship with a drone rack outload consistent with a drone variant eventhough it may not be a drone variant.

Lastly I think any of the inconsistencies in the Lyran Tech or Tholian ships may have more to do with a general sense of experimentation and less to do with any negligence or false intentions of the parties involved in the shiplist. You seem to be stepping in at the eleventh hour to make some commentary but may not be fully aware of the intent of the server and its shiplist nor the intentions of the server designers. Although I must say drone racks on a rom ships sounds a bit silly. Perhaps it was a mistake.

While you have obvious expertise in this area, there are any number of cheesy ships in SFC. I am sure any of these temporary additions to their number will not affect things too much especially if "fixing" them were to delay the server longer.

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2003, 01:44:16 am »

Well, my humble opinion on these points is that, at the very least, these designs need to be playtested a bit before they are used in a live campaign. AOTK's shiplist, flawed though it may have been, did actually get a week or two of playtesting before it was put into service and many changes were made as a result of the testing.

It will be an interesting ride, either way...

Rob Cole · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2003, 01:49:06 am »

Well ya know why Dizzy has the Tholians uber.....He will be flying them...Oh now come on I know ya aint shocked

Soreyes · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2003, 01:49:44 am »

Roms with Drones.................. Say it ain't so

SPQR Renegade001 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2003, 01:55:45 am »

Without seeing the shiplist...

I think the Drone equipt Lyrans might be there to give them a leg up on assault missions. They have always had issues in that department and this might be an atempt at a possible cure. Another one from the past is an assualt script allowing them to commission a drone armed pirate to assist them.

OTOH, drone armed Rommies? Our shortcomming (compared to the western powers) is in AI kill times, esp in early and early-mid era. If we're to get help in that area, I would rather see an earlier introduction of some crippled INTs and the casual PFT variants. A KEF or KRCSF (or even a WEF or KRCF?) with a pair of (1) plas-F INTs would go through AI like the drone/fighter races, but would offer little threat to a real live human until the kill shot.

As for the Ph-2s on Rom ships, I don't recall what ADB did with the Kestral refits, but Taldren's stock Kestrals do use Ph2s as does the Snipe-P; so there is precident.

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2003, 01:57:02 am »

Quote:

Well ya know why Dizzy has the Tholians uber.....He will be flying them...Oh now come on I know ya aint shocked

Hey! You said it, not me!

I just remember Dizzy's tirades about the AOTK shiplist. I'm not sure what to think of this...heheh.

Rob Cole · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2003, 01:58:51 am »

So true Doggy.

Dan · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2003, 02:13:40 am »

The DNH has double drone control in SFC without having paid the BPV bump for it. If it had the BPV bump for it, it wouldn't be QUITE as bad.

The REASON the CFS is underpowered in your mind is because it's carrying around the firepower of most dreadnoughts. From a cruiser stand point it's very well powered at 36 (CFS) or 42 (CFS+ only 2 years later).

The reason I mention SFB is because it is extreamly useful in regards to balance. The ships are playtested by many people and revised to be balanced within their class.

As for delaying the server that really isn't an issue. It's better to finish the files before the server starts than after.

As far as the intent of the various ships; your right. I don't know who ment what with each ship. All I have to look at is the stats for the ships. And you know what? I couldn't care less what the intent was for the ships if they are so bloody unbalanced compared to their class that they would autokill something two sizes bigger.

Using "Well there are already cheesy ships in the game..." as an excuse for adding more is such a poor excuse it's not even remotely amusing.

The Tholian ships Ditzy added barely even remotely resemble the Tholian ships that are in the source material. If Ditzy really wants to play the THolians than he should not use his own tweaked versions, a good number of which outclass the other races ships of the same type.

Bitch and complain about me all you like. I'm used to people not liking me and there isn't anything you can say or do that can compare to what I have to put up with in reality or what I've put up with in the past.

Scipio_66 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 18, 2003, 02:25:30 am »

I'll give the same caveat. This is all my opinion.

Dizzy posted about the Lyrans a while back. The intent for the Lyran "Kestrels" was to give them drones for assaults. They weren't converted to Lyran tech because they weren't supposed to be. (Think of them as expeditionary fleet ships, rather than purchased items.) The presence of the L-D7D suprised me, but the rest I don't worry about.

They are neither more nor less balanced than the Klingon ships of the same name.

I disagree with your assessment that Gorn ships should make an even swap of Plas-F for Plas-D. SFC has no offensive Plas-D mode, so you are really pulling the teeth of the ships if you do a straight swap. They should get some sort of phaser enhancement as well if we drop the F torps.

Since the only Gorn opponent is the ISC -- with their advanced designs and their uber Caveat's -- any increase the Gorn ships get for Dizzy's Plas-D for ph-3's swap shouldn't be a balance problem. Gorn will still come up on the short end of the balance stick. Note that against non-carriers, these Gorn ships will actually be less effective since they've lost (small) phasers for a weapon which has no offensive function.

I haven't looked closely enough at the Fed or Tholian ships to comment.

-S'Cipio

Dan · « **Reply #10 on:** May 18, 2003, 02:26:58 am »

Damn you guys post fast. That, or I type slowly.

While I have my own suspitions on why the Thols are tweaked like they are I'l reserve judgement till Ditzy gets back and can explain.

Dan · « **Reply #11 on:** May 18, 2003, 02:42:03 am »

the DNT doesn't lose ANYTHING to gain the FX and RX plasma-D racks. They are just strapped to the hull without any weapons change. THe firing arcs are to wide. racks are universally restricted to 180 degrees unless on a fixed object (even there is rare)

THe while your correct that the plasma-d's in SFC doesn't have an offensive ability it also was very much lacking the firing drawbacks last time I saw it fire. In SFB it fires once per impulse. In SFC the damn thing seems to fire almost everything at once.

if you are truely adamant about it I'd be willing to comprimise and add a Ph-3 with the same firing arc as the respective D-Rack. it's not much firepower but a D isn't exactly a powerful offensive weapon.

As far as the Lyrans; how are they in an any worse boat than the other races with energy weapons? If they wish to have drone ships than they should hook up with a klingon player and run joint missions. That would solve their problem without introducing drones to the Lyran ships.

One note I will make is that the Lyrans, in SFB, use klingon DRONE armed fighters on their carriers. If the Klingon ships are retained I would sort of prefer if the ships that are normally rather limited production (drone ships and the large capital ships like the C7) not be added to the Lyran fleet.

FatherTed · « **Reply #12 on:** May 18, 2003, 02:48:20 am »

Boy, I'm way up past my bedtime!

I'm surprised the CFS(+) is even being discussed because I had no idea they were in the shiplist. I don't think I've ever seen one in a campaign before because it's pretty useless against anybody with a pulse. The ridiculous arcs and power curve on that thing make it silly to even try and take one on a patrol where you might possibly run into somebody flying anything like a D5 or Sparrowhawk, IMO. The only possible use for it, as far as I can see, is in base assaults against AI, where you can whirl around and proxie it to death.

The Lyrans with drone racks is a bit of a stretch, but in SFB, they did use Klink fighters, and they definitely could use the help on planet assaults.

Roms with drones is OTT, on the other hand. They're a big enough pain in the *** as it is.

I can't comment on the Tholians, since I have no idea what they're carrying. Are they able to use any form of web? It just ain't a Tholian without it.

All in all, though, I would say that we can tweak the list as needed before it goes live if we get the dl. Dizzy has poured so much time and effort into this that I hope we can fix the things that need it quickly and get on with the fun.

Dan · « **Reply #14 on:** May 18, 2003, 03:23:55 am »

Ditzy's Neo-Tholian CA:

Designation: T-NCA
BPV: 157 (This BPV is VERY, VERY low. Should be about 180)
Crew: 49
Marines: 12
Shield 1: 30
Shield 2 & 6: 24
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 150

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: D
Total Warp Power: 30
Impulse Power: 5
Aux Power: 2
Total Engine Power: 35
Battery: 4

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Shuttles: 6

4x Disruptor 4 (FA)
2x Hellbore (FA)
9x Phaser 1 (3 FH. 3 RS. 3 LS)
6x Phaser 3 (4 RX. 1 RS. 1 LS)

------------------------------------------------------

Correct Neo-Tholian CA (2 webcasters replaced with 4 Ph-1s instead of 4 dsiruptors to preserve power curve)

SSD for Neo-Tholian Avenger-Class Heavy Crusier

Designation: Z-NCA
BPV: 160
Crew: 52.5
Marines: 15
Shield 1: 30
Shield 2 & 6: 24
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 150

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: B
Total Warp Power: 30
Impulse Power: 5
Aux Power: 2
Total Engine Power: 35
Battery: 4

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Mech Tractors: 0
Shuttles: 4
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 3 (FA)
11x Phaser 1 (3 FH. 4 FA (Replacing casters). 2 RS. 2 LS)
6x Phaser 3 (2 RA+R, 2 RA+L, 1 RS, 1 LS)

mbday · « **Reply #15 on:** May 18, 2003, 03:28:13 am »

Dan,

Now why do you what to do this. It sounds to like you what the server the way you what it.
Dizzy is not the only one that has worked on the ship list. Sure Dizzy is running the server but he is not the only one that has worked to put this togather. I do remember seeing a post were Dizzy had ask you to help with this server before and you blew him off. Now after knowing his is away from the interner you what to help. I got to ask were was your help when it was asked for.

Sorry but this is how I feel. You what this server to be the way you what it now that Dizzy is not here to say any thing to you about it. Take this stuff and wait till he gets back and show it to him not here on the forums. Nit till he has a change to look at it and responed to you.

Dan · « **Reply #16 on:** May 18, 2003, 03:33:52 am »

No.

He asked me for my opintion in the other thread so I'm giving it.

The Tholians I sort of take personally when someone does drastic changes on. Particuarly when they are going to add them to a server using my models (which; for the record, I prefer to be copper like they are supposed to be)

mbday · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2003, 04:10:43 am »

Ok I will give you that. But you could have at the lest waited till he gets back let him know what you have found and talk it over with him. Not here not now not when he is unable to say any thing about what he was planing.

JMM · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2003, 07:11:29 am »

I fail to see why Dan CANNOT post his views, after all we are a community, and everyone has a right to speak, or so I was told.

We have few enough players compared to a year and a half ago, let's not get mad at each other for our views or comments and make people want to leave. No, I'm not perfect either, Dog and Mog and others can testify I have done my share of public bitching, but I've learned to chill, and want everyone to stay and enjoy the game.

Darn I miss the days of CW 3 and the enrollment of hundreds of people! No lack of action on that campaign, no sirrreeee...

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Topic: Unbalanced ships in the SG3 shiplist (Read 7463 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Dan

Lepton1

KBF-Dogmatix

Rob Cole

Soreyes

SPQR Renegade001

KBF-Dogmatix

Rob Cole

Dan

Scipio_66

Dan

Dan

FatherTed

Cleaven

Dan

mbday

Dan

mbday

JMM

mbday

Topic: Unbalanced ships in the SG3 shiplist (Read 7463 times)