Topic: Dizzy, you @#$#$% jerk (Read 9063 times)

Dan · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2003, 08:14:37 pm »

Because there isn't anything I can do about a server that is in the past that I wasn't aware of. I'm not happy about it but there isn't much I can do.

What is the issue ofr me here is not being asked when Ditzy decided to do what he did.

People using my models on their own computers is one thing.

People taking my models, altering them, reposting them, and dumping them into a server mod without saying a word to me is totally another matter.

I didn't have a disclaimer on my sight because Iv'e never needed one before. People asked before they did anything. I'm not used to needing one. Maybe I have to much faith in people to ask me before changing things.

I think a formal apoligy from Ditzy would go a long way right now.

I'd also prefer that anyone that wants to alter my models for anything other than their own use or to include them in a server at least ASK me first. It's not hard to type out a few lines ina an email.

--------------------------

Off Topic:

Ditzy: I saw the list of Tholian ships you had for inclusion in your server. Many of them are unbalanced PhD ships that don't have a place in a balanced game (Their Neo BC is WAAAAY over done). I'd suggest a careful review of them prior to adding them. If you want to send me a list of the ships I can take a look for you.

KATChuutRitt · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2003, 08:22:36 pm »

Ok Dizzy,

The ball is in your court now,

Just formally state the apology you implied in your earlier post, and I think Brez will be ok with it and we can move on.

I think he was just surprised by discovering his models were going to be used and reacted more emotionally than he normally would. He designed those models for the enjoyment of all, he just simply wanted to be asked first.

Maybe now we can all move on.

gornrule · « **Reply #22 on:** May 15, 2003, 08:23:49 pm »

Just a simple request to Dan and Dizzy. Could you guys hash this out in private? This thread is degenerating into a huge flamewar. I truly hope you guys can come to a workable agreement. Just not on the forums. Not an order, just a request.

Thanks.

Gwarlock

JMM · « **Reply #23 on:** May 15, 2003, 08:31:22 pm »

Not to be an arse, but I'm impressed with Dizzy lately, and his diplomacy on this issue and others. I do believe Taldren stated that mods were NOT PROPERTY? I seem to remember something being posted a long time ago on this issue.

Sorry, but if I create something and leave it available for free download and use, I do not think I can legally do anything if their use is not for money or profit, and last time I looked, servers and mission packs COST time and money, not made them! Now if I was to create something and copyright it and NOT have it available for free downloads, then it would be piracy and copyright infringement. Right now Dan you do not have a case, and have really shown a poor mentality for someone who SAYS they enjoy the game and want people to share.

If you want a huzzah and kudos for your mods, then let us have our campaign and if I see your work in action, then yes, I will say to you that I am impressed.

Dizzy, don't you dare stay away from the campaign, with the community having low numbers right now due to SFC3, we need everyone we can get to make it a blast!

Please do not take this as an attack Dan, it's not, I just think you need to calm down and talk to dizzy about it, not start a flame war, I've seen some bad ones in the past few days and it needs to stop...

Cleaven · « **Reply #24 on:** May 15, 2003, 08:36:59 pm »

Quote:

I didn't have a disclaimer on my sight because Iv'e never needed one before. People asked before they did anything. I'm not used to needing one. Maybe I have to much faith in people to ask me before changing things.

Didn't they use the same excuse for the Hindenberg i.e. it never blew up before. (Imagine if they'd used all this hot air instead).

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #25 on:** May 15, 2003, 08:39:15 pm »

It seems to me that Brez (as most modellers do) has a problem with people altering their models without permission. I gather the bit about altered textures courtesy of "Dizzy" is just such an alteration.

Also...there is a distinction between an individual user logging into a download site and downloading models for their persoanl use and someone including the models wholesale as part of a server download pack for a D2 campaign whith an individual or individuals are putting out there as their body of work. Again, it seems to me like asking permission would have been the polite thing to do.

Add to that the bad blood between Dizzy and Brezgonne...and you end up here.

Goose · « **Reply #26 on:** May 15, 2003, 09:18:28 pm »

The question of wether or not Dizzy can modify (slightly) someone else's models and use them without permission is the very same age old question regarding copyrights and trademark infringements.

Towards that end several things need to be looked at:

1) None of us are qualified to debate trademarks. (Except maybe the lawyers in this crowd and not too many of them are talking right now)

2) There were no copyrights statements or trademarks on the Mods. Only acknowledgements for credit sake. (1 against Brez, who is coming back to the community after an absense only to find his stuff as public property)

3) Anything that is to be put into production (such as a download), and not for individual use, should have the proper permissions first. If not by law then out of courtesy for the person who made it. If you could not get permission then you don't use it. (1 against Dizzy, while his heart was in the right place, he jumped the gun).

Why do we do this? to avoid the situations such as are presented in this thread. Knowing past animosities between these two, this should have been foreseen.

If Dizzy apologizes for inapropriation, can we use the mods?

*sigh*
Dizzy vs Brezgonne
Everything old is new again.

Dizzy · « **Reply #29 on:** May 15, 2003, 10:12:45 pm »

Ok Brez... I had to take a long deep breath and step back from it all...

I see where you are comming from. I get you.

There is a thread on the model forum (somewhere) where this issue was taken up by a group of modelers on just this sort of topic. I happened to read this a long time ago. Basically it went something like this:

Moderler X took moderler's Y ship, kitbashed it (Changed the geometry of the ship and/or used the parts to create a new ship), changed the textures and then called it his own.

Now I have to say, someone doing something like this would piss me off too... Very much so. And I think it is very wrong. So the thread went on to have some other modeler say that if an artist/modeler designs a ship and does not want it kitbashed, then it shouldnt be. Then a different modeler said he wouldnt mind AS LONG AS he was notified and properly credited for the original. Some just disagreed on all points entirely... It turned into one HUGE flame mess... that had 2 threads... and went so far as to have some modelers wanting to 'lock' their models from being able to be kitbashed because of certain fellows refusing to give proper credit when credit is due.

So... as a server designer, Brez... I had a look into what it is like to WORK for the community and produce something others can enjoy. In fact, this is my second time doing so. So I stepped into your shoes, Brez to see this from your perspective.

Here's what I see... I see someone taking my models... changing the textures and inserting them into a D/L withought explaining nor asking me if it was ok. I see that it wasnt made clear that the models being used were mine and that this someone is seemingly taking credit for all the work I have done. I'm pissed. Now to top it all off, this person using my models is in fact the one person of all that I despise the most...

So Brez... I cant blame you, really. I now see it from your perspective, although I'm sure I only see a small fraction of what you see. And I cant imagine how you feel other than pissed off.

I can offer some excuses... Like the models were free D/L's and that there wernt any restrictions on who could use them or how... and that even the D/L page had instructions that if they were going to be used that you not 'leech' them from your site and 'hijack' your bandwidth but to repost them or mirror them somewhere else... And that when I first asked you to team with me on doing this server, you brushed me off so harshly I was afraid of contacting you again cuz u might really get pissed off with me buggong you. And that this isnt the first time a server has used the models, etc... etc... But excuses would just piss me off more if I were you and the excuses dont really address the issue here...

Now... here I am. Just having put myself in your shoes... And I realize you are upset and think I have a good idea why.

So here's what I am gonna do. I am gonna say that I could have told you what the server was all about and the reason I asked you to be part of the team in the first place was because of your models. I also should have made it more plainly clear to you what my intentions were. I also see your point on the textures I redid. You should have been contacted.

So I am guilty for those things. And I am sorry. I apologize.

I hope you see we are alike, Brez.. you and me... Thats maybe why we didnt get along for such a long time... We both had such differeing opinions on how to better the community and were at complete odds over our solutions to them that we fought and fought and fought. But know what? We both had the interests of the community at heart. We both wanted to better it.

You know... that kinda reminds me of the current situation here on the D2 forums with Tracey and DarkElf resigning... the split of sfc2.net peeps and all the other problems that have these former contributers to the community at odds with each other.

Its because they want to better the community, but are at odds with others who want to do the same, but see each others views as harful.

Brez... if anything happens here... I hope ppl see that you did these models for the players to enjoy and I did the same with my server design, so it can be enjoyed by the community. We both are in it together to improve it even tho we disagree and have done so in the past. So I hope others see that what they are doing is for the community and how the people they are at odds with are trying to do the same...

There was no malice towards you in my efforts, Brez. You have a right to be upset. Plz accept my aplogies for not aking you earlier.... May I use your models with altered textures? Please?

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #30 on:** May 15, 2003, 10:59:14 pm »

Nice post, Diz.

Dizzy · « **Reply #31 on:** May 15, 2003, 11:45:45 pm »

Brez hates me so much... I hope it makes a difference. I am being sincere... I kinda got too sappy, but I stand by it.

The_Infiltrator · « **Reply #33 on:** May 16, 2003, 12:45:04 am »

LOL

This has little to do with models I think...Brez would have been just annoyed if someone else had used his models. But Dizzy! Of course you know, this means WAR!

For those confused with the current state of affairs, this is an excellent description of the state of affairs between these two if you haven't been here for years like M'Ress, Dog and myself :

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame70.html

I can remember my first visit to these forums in mid 2001. The first visit inside this forum revealed a heated argument between 2 people, "Dizzy" and "Brezgonne". There were at least 4 or 5 seperate threads which they were flaming and counterflaming each other. Something IIRC about Brez unfairly using Kzinti ships to attack planets and/or using the base bug.

I was smart enough then, on my first trip here to understand that saying anything with regards to an argument between the two was useless. It's still useless. I would then suggest that everyone else do the same. It usually dies out after about a week to two weeks.

On a seperate note: Nice to see you again Brez! You haven't been here in a while. I wasn't satisfied with the results of our last engagement - I hope for a rematch someday. While you're here, what do you think about the discussions going on on ADB's boards about X2? I must admit that I'm hopelessly lost.

Toasty0 · « **Reply #34 on:** May 16, 2003, 01:01:30 am »

Thank you Infiltrator. Had I known this is a long running squabble between formor rivals I woud've let it be without comment. But, now with this deeper understanding of the forces at work I see clearly how futile it would be to expect civility.

Though I have to give a tip o' the hat to Dizzy for his reasoned and apologitic post.

Best,
Jerry

Toasty0 · « **Reply #35 on:** May 16, 2003, 01:21:53 am »

Thanks for the link, btw. Some really funny stuff.

Best,
Jerry

Dizzy · « **Reply #36 on:** May 16, 2003, 01:27:55 am »

Look, this is a time to bury the hatchet... An opportunity to cease old hostilities and make peace.

::Extends hand out to brezgonne::

Hey dude... lets let the old flames die out. Im ready to be friends. In fact, maybe since this server has a totally fleshed out Tholian race, largely due to you Brez, then maybe you would want to return to the game for one last server? The missions are great. We have 57 or so and they are mostly custom. There's a lot of variety on mission choices that come up in the game.

And I cant think of a better person than you to be the Tholian RM. I was planning on filling that position myself having the most knowledge on them so far... but I'd gladly take an ARM role to you. In fact, I'd welcome your comments on their play balance so we can make tweaks to smooth in their transition...

How bout it Brez? Take one last trip down memory lane and play a server for old times sake?

I'm sure we'd all love to have you come back.

AdmiralFrey_XC · « **Reply #37 on:** May 16, 2003, 02:05:24 am »

Hey Diz, remember that email you sent me asking about a certain something?

This is a good step towards it.

Nice apology, well said.

Dan · « **Reply #38 on:** May 16, 2003, 02:07:47 am »

Sheesh... slow down. It's 2 am. I've got to get up in 3 hours to catch my girlfriend.

I'll post again when I'm actually awake.

News:

Topic: Dizzy, you @#$#$% jerk (Read 9063 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Dan

KATChuutRitt

gornrule

JMM

Cleaven

KBF-Dogmatix

Goose

Sfaret

Toasty0

Dizzy

KBF-Dogmatix

Dizzy

SSCF Hooch

The_Infiltrator

Toasty0

Toasty0

Dizzy

AdmiralFrey_XC

Dan

Dizzy

Topic: Dizzy, you @#$#$% jerk (Read 9063 times)