Topic: The meaning of Dreadnought  (Read 13757 times)

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J. Carney

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2003, 09:01:08 am »
Cutter: boat belonging to a ship of war.  ca. 1745.

They are single-masted, sharp-built vessels, provided with fore-and-aft sails only, and fitted with a running bowsprit; they have no standing jib stay. Such vessels were at one time generally used for coasting passenger traffic. The term “ cutter" is also applied to an open sailing boat carried on board ship.

I can't find where it came from, but that is the original meanning andrigging of what would have been called a cutter. This is the modern definitiion, taken from the U.S. Coast Guard's site, which givesan idea of it's military usage today.

Cutter: A "Cutter" is basically any Coast Guard vessel 65 feet in length or greater, having adequate accommodations for crew to live on board.


 

brotheda

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2003, 09:32:50 am »
Frigate is when you just don't care anymore.  

But seriously, it is usually an escort I think.

The modern navy is a different story.  There are no more battle ships.  I think the US has a few light cruisers but the bulk of the fleet is Guided missile destroyers and frigates, of course you always have the flatops, or Aircraft cariers (only the US and a few other though).

I also know a battle cruiser is a ship with a battleships weapons, but a cruisers speed.  Of course it has much less armour and is more easily destroyed.  To make things simpler though, SFC doesn't follow the real navy.  It is simply the next ship being stronger than the previous.    
« Last Edit: January 28, 2003, 09:38:56 am by brotheda »

Bossman

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2003, 11:04:52 am »
Well aren't we a grumpy little man today?    

kevlar

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2003, 01:22:19 pm »
The US navy still has a good number of medium to heavy conventional propulsion cruisers, the Ticonderoga class and some nuclear powered ones, like the Virginia class.  

The problem is that ships originally were classed by their displacement and, until 1950/60, is was pretty easy to classify ships, while now there are destroyers and frigates with more than 7000 tons of displacement, what by the older standards, puts them on par with most  cruisers.
Also, the reduction of gun calibre to the almost universal dual function 127 mm,  and the widespread of guided missiles, complexes even more naval typology.  In fact , trying to compare ( and establish differences) between a modern Arleigh Burke destroyer and a modern cruiser can be painful.

The battlecruiser definition is even harder to conceptualise. The original term for them was "great heavy light cruiser", and that was how Lord Fisher, the father of the HMS Dreadnought, ordered them for the Royal Navy. Eventually someone started to think that "great heavy light cruiser" was a vague concept and classified the ships as battlecruisers,  vessels capable of emulate  the firepower of conventional dreadnoughts but still maintained the speed of cruisers.

 Even so the designation battlecruiser always produced a fair amount of equivoques. For example, the battlecruiser HMS Hood , built between 1916 and 1919, with a displacement that could oscillate between 41 125 and 46680 tons;  was bigger and heavier armoured  than any contemporary dreadnought built until then,  and by 1940 it still had a  displacement similar to the North Carolina battleship class. By the displacement criteria alone, the Hood was, by his own right, a battleship, and the Kriegsmarine had no problems in classifying it as panzerschiffe (battleship or armoured vessel).The royal navy only categorized it as a battlecruiser simply because the Hood had a extremely high speed ( 31 .9 knots) and used torpedo tubes.
At the same time the HMS Renown and HMS Repulse also had firepower and displacements that matched the ones of Arkansas, New York, Nevada battleship and british Queen Mary dreadnoughts,  but were universally classified as battlecruisers, while the pocket dreadnoughts of the Deutschland class , later known as the Lutzow class,  ended up being considered heavy cruisers despite the fact that they were ordered as panzerschiffes and looked light when compared with the german Prinz Eugen heavy cruiser,  and sort of puny if compared with the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau battle cruisers

To fire the furnace even more, the soviet nuclear powered Kirov cruiser was considered a battlecruiser by many western navies trough the eighties and even nineties, even when it had almost three and a half times more displacement than most occidental heavy cruisers  ( and by comparison with them looked more like a battleship than anything else). But for the soviets it was always seen simply as a guided missile heavy cruiser.

 It is all on the eyes of the beholder.
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by kevlar »

Azrael

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2003, 01:51:14 pm »
Sheesh, calm down.

Didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings.

I admit it.  In my post I was being a complete sarcastic twat.  Get over it.

I also did, however, thoughtfully include the origins of the word Frigate.

Now somebody can one up me and give us the origines of Corevette.

Azrael

Aenigma

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2003, 03:18:05 pm »
Well here's something about corvettes (i suppose you don't mean the car).

small warship, classed between a frigate and a sloop-of-war. Corvettes usually were flush-decked and carried fewer than 28 guns. They were widely employed in escorting convoys and attacking merchant ships during the great naval wars of the late 18th and early 19th cent., but corvettes passed from use with the transition from sail to steam. At the beginning of World War II the term was reintroduced to designate a small vessel of about 1,000 tons displacement, armed with depth charges and a single 4-in. (10.2-cm) gun. In the early years of the war, large numbers of these vessels were employed by the British and Canadian navies as convoy escorts in the North Atlantic; later they were supplanted by the larger, faster, and better-armed frigates.

Source: www.encyclopedia.com

Aenigma  

Aenigma

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2003, 03:24:09 pm »
Even more on corvette:

corvette - 1636, from Fr. "small frigate," probably from M.Du. korver "pursuit ship," from M.L.G. korf meaning both a kind of boat and a basket, from L. corbita (navis) "slow-sailing ship of burden," from corbis "basket." A basket was hoisted as a signal by Egyptian grain-ships.

Source: http://www.geocities.com/etymonline

Aenigma  

moosefoof

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2003, 03:25:29 pm »
Who cares about deadnought, destroyer or cruiser class.

The 'Visby' class ships, built by the Swedish Armed Forces are all stealth.

Where'd that torpedo come from....?

NannerSlug

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2003, 06:46:16 pm »
Quote:

Strange.

and here I thought it was named after the behemoth Jamaican battleship the "Dread-lock"  




GAH.. should have seen that coming.. lol.

Jack Power

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2003, 05:03:05 am »
How about gunships and monitors? What's the difference between those and corvettes? How are they used, if at all, in modern naval combat?

Also, what's the naval shorthand for those types of ships? Some variation of FF or DD?

Just cuious.
~JP
 

J. Carney

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2003, 10:40:49 am »
from http://www.btinternet.com/~a.c.walton/navy/smn-faq/smn-faq.html

Corvette: Small, generally slow escort-type vessel, generally intended for ASW. Best suited for coastal work but sometimes employed as a seagoing vessel. Often seem to be heavily armed for their size, but generally are lacking in things like sensors, electronics, reloads, range and accomodations.

similar to a corvette

Sloop: A multi-mission convoy escort type most common after WWI and prior to WWII. Slow, but with long range to operate with convoys. This type was mostly replaced by destroyer escorts/frigates during WWII.

Monitor: Monitors are slow vessels with minimal freeboard and extremely limited seagoing ability, equipped with one or more guns in armored turret(s) and relatively little secondary armament, intended for defensive ship-to-ship combat in coastal waters, or offensive shore bombardment. Monitors differ from coast defense battleships in the means of accomplishing the defensive role: coast defense battleships would meet the enemy fleet some distance out to sea, while monitors would wait along the coastline for the enemy to come to them. The coastal combatant role was a feature of the second half of the 19th century; the shore bombardment role appeared during both World Wars.

3rd Class Cruiser, Sheathed Cruiser, Colonial Cruiser, Gunboat (PG) The next step down the cruiser size scale, these ships were constructed for duty in areas where a presence was required but there was no significant threat. Thus they were typically slower and lightly armed and armored. In wartime such ships would have been supplemented by larger cruisers. They often operated as leaders for destroyers or small patrol craft. This gunboat classification only applies to the larger breed of gunboats; some other gunboats were small fast attack craft. This entire classification was mostly extinct by the end of WWI


Hopefully that will answer any questions on these classes. The address at the top is a good site- the summaries on each class are short but very well done.

Blitzkrieg

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Re: The meaning of Dreadnought
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2003, 10:51:43 am »
Going way back but Sloop used to be the smallest and fastest combat vessles (before engines).