Topic: CW8(8.5)....The winds of war blow again.....

[Sfaret]

Quote:
I vote F-G-L-I vs. K-M-R-H.  
 

While this sounds interesting on the surface, with a tradtional map and turn out this would be a poor alliance choice.

The Lyrans typically only have a moderate at best turn out. The Hydran turn out usually matches the Lyrans but the Mirak and Klingons exceed them almost every time. Thus you would have a single empire surrounded by three enemies all with equal or greater turn out and no ally support.

The Romulans would also be in the three fold situation but traditional maps allow the Roms and Klingons to link. Also the Roms traditionally have much better turn out than either the ISC or Gorn. Add to this the fact that the Federation would also face three player heavy races on it's borders, you can see where this is going.

S'faret

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Now, why didn't I think of that, DH123, whoever you are!?  heheh...


I think you're right on the money.  Moggy and I were talking about this and I gather he has talked with Jeffy as well.  This would be a great opporunity to see if OP D2 is really up to the task.  I think it is, but this would settle things once and for all.


I'm all for using FireSoul's list, too...but some considerations will have to be made so that the shipyards aren't full of stuff no one is going to fly and you're fighting tooth and nail to get your hands on a measly NCL+ or D5K.  I also think LYAs of ships should sharply coincide with the FYAs of their upgraded versions.  This will only help improve shipyard selection.


Also..since we have the Advanced Era to consider in OP, I'd also like to see the Early Era skipped altogether, otherwise we might never get to the advanced era.


 

[Sfaret]

Quote:
Also..since we have the Advanced Era to consider in OP, I'd also like to see the Early Era skipped altogether, otherwise we might never get to the advanced era.
 

This is a good point, however we could see an advanced era if a real run was made. To date I do not think any cmapaign has gone over say 3 months in link. What if we saw a TRUE campaign get put together. Something that would run 6 months on the average?

Neat idea would be to allow conquered races to switch alliances. For example if the Romulans took the Gorn home world and a set number of other strategic points. The Gorn then surrender and become allies to the Romulans. Of course the federation could free them if they chose in the same manner.

The shifting allainaces would keep the game exciting even for the long haul. I am just not sure if the Dynaverse can handle this easily?

S'faret

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

 

Quote:
 You know, maybe this could be the server that give OP D2 that kick in the butt that it needs? People will show up for it, especially if SFC2.net and SFCx work together . . .  

That would be cool.

 

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The Orginal sides were fine. The map was awsome but if a race is switched, maybe their position on the map may need to be as well? I guess using SG3 to determine player turnout will give us a good idea as to how many players will show up for each side.

Maybe swap the Hydrans and Lyrans.

 

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

 

Quote:
 While this sounds interesting on the surface, with a tradtional map and turn out this would be a poor alliance choice.

The Lyrans typically only have a moderate at best turn out. The Hydran turn out usually matches the Lyrans but the Mirak and Klingons exceed them almost every time. Thus you would have a single empire surrounded by three enemies all with equal or greater turn out and no ally support.

The Romulans would also be in the three fold situation but traditional maps allow the Roms and Klingons to link. Also the Roms traditionally have much better turn out than either the ISC or Gorn. Add to this the fact that the Federation would also face three player heavy races on it's borders, you can see where this is going.
 

Using the map from CW6 would provide for the coverage that both sides needed. CW6 had a pretty decent balance, if I recall correctly. The Gorn got an unexpected boost which helped, but they still didn't have a large cadre of experienced Gorn players.  

[Capt Jeff]

If it goes OP, and I am really wanting to lean that way, then it would most definetly have the OP+ shiplist.


And Doggy, there is a way of making the "Less wanted" ships  not appear in the yards, or even as AI if wanted, all without having players download anything other then the "true" OP+ list.   It can all be done server side.
 

[Capt Jeff]

PS...I think Steel-Claw may be onto something !!  

[jdmckinney]

Sfaret, not to poop on anyone's parade, but neither flatfile nor SQL databases have proven they can run for anywhere near that long without major problems. Even the maintenance starts to cause issues. Plus, the longer a campaign stretches, the more likely people would get tired of the same setup and the eventual proliferation of large ships.

If anything, campaigns should work toward longer runs in increments, steadily pushing the envelope of what can be done. Going full speed ahead into even a 3-month run would be a little too much. Maybe I'm overcautious, but the history of DB problems is a serious concern.

On the subject of a joint effort to provide a campaign on OP that comes from SFC2.net designers/admins, I'm certainly open to exploring ways to team up, but I think the various admins need to discuss such things before anyone gets ahead of themselves. OP is now capable of supporting a major campaign, so anything that helps showcase that capability is cool in my book.

[DH123]

Quote:
Now, why didn't I think of that, DH123, whoever you are!?  heheh...


I think you're right on the money.  Moggy and I were talking about this and I gather he has talked with Jeffy as well.  This would be a great opporunity to see if OP D2 is really up to the task.  I think it is, but this would settle things once and for all.


I'm all for using FireSoul's list, too...but some considerations will have to be made so that the shipyards aren't full of stuff no one is going to fly and you're fighting tooth and nail to get your hands on a measly NCL+ or D5K.  I also think LYAs of ships should sharply coincide with the FYAs of their upgraded versions.  This will only help improve shipyard selection.


Also..since we have the Advanced Era to consider in OP, I'd also like to see the Early Era skipped altogether, otherwise we might never get to the advanced era.


 

You're right about the list and the shipyard.  I guess all the useless ships need to be marked  SPECIAL and the FYA's set to phase them out so the yards aren't full of Commando Tugs and Science vessels.  I like the way the shipyard worked on AOTK, as well as the current ship and trade-in prices.

Mid-era start would be best if we intend on giving the FireSoul X-ships a good, um . .. ., beta test.  I actually like starting in Early as it is cool from a RP standpoint but not  if we intend on giving X-ships a shakedown.  I would also suggest that we omit the 2nd generation X-ships or delay their entry for a number of years so the SFB ones actually get flown.

AOTK CnC seems cool.  Maybe relax the DN requirement as the Mid-Era start doesn't allow people as much time to build PP.  One idea I like for DN population control is anyone can fly a DN but if you get killed, you are not allowed to fly another one for X (5?) amount of game years.

 We also should give VC points for ALL comfirmed kills and forced retreats.  DN kills should be worth much more than other ships.  It would be interesting to see PvP outcomes actually matter more for the Strategic aspect of this game.

Back to the crack-pipe . . .  

[FireSoul]

OP+ 2.0's shiplist had an overlap of 3 years for refits.. while the OP+ 2.1c has an overlap of 2 years, which should be a good improvement. It's all in how you view it.

As for cutting out crappy ships, it has to be tweaked on the server's end. I found there were WAY too many tugs appearing on Reclamation, so I'm wondering if anythign could be done for that.


-- Luc

PS: Commando ships are already marked as SPECIAL. Scouts too. Survey vessels are marked as normal ships since some of them can actually have some firepower.

[FireSoul]

Quote:

Mid-era start would be best if we intend on giving the FireSoul X-ships a good, um . .. ., beta test. I actually like starting in Early as it is cool from a RP standpoint but not if we intend on giving X-ships a shakedown. I would also suggest that we omit the 2nd generation X-ships or delay their entry for a number of years so the SFB ones actually get flown.

In the OP+ Shpilist, the X-ships dates have been manipulated..

The SFB X1 ships appear in the 2290s (I know it's not SFB's dates, but it's for the best for GSA play compatibility). I think I added 11 years to all X1 ships, and it fit quite nicely..

The Taldren Xships (X2?) appear in the 2300s, and are staggered in their dates in a similar way to the X1 ships from SFB.



Check it out, maybe that will do?
-- Luc

[Fluf]

hehe, I already had considered doing Storm Season for OP and had a map done and server setup almost completed, when I finally talked to Jeff and found out his plans.   Jeff I would definitely go to OP on this one and use Firesouls list.  I have some ideas I need to talk to you about too that might fit in with OP.

As far as race changes, I was thinking along the same lines with changing the Hydrans and Lyrans.  Im also with Dogmatix here on reducing the YLA's.  Although I approve of Firesouls reasoning for doing his +2 YLA's for his shiplist, it doesnt help in a D2 envirorment.  His shiplist is designed for both D2 and GSA play.  I dont want to see the shipyards  cluttered with ships that wont be bought because the refit is already there.

Also, I did notice alot of tugs and monitors appearing as AI on LB3 too using Jeffs list.  We will have to look at how that might be toned down a bit.

Oh well, great stuff Jeff.    I think this should be a really good campaign.   Oh and "REMEMBER PINKY GEN!"

God, I still have nightmares about that.  

Ok Im off to my new secret project .............

 

[Scipio_66]

I would prefer starting in early era. Though perhaps part way through early era, to allow for a few refits, so that empires get tossed into the war the ships they thought they would need to fight it.  Personal preference here.  Early is my favorite, as all the ships get more and more "optimized" as you progress through the timeline.

As for advanced era, just say no!

I still pefer EAW.  I get fits with lag and drops on OP.

-S'Cipio of the Olde School

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

Quote:
 I would prefer starting in early era. Though perhaps part way through early era, to allow for a few refits, so that empires get tossed into the war the ships they thought they would need to fight it. Personal preference here. Early is my favorite, as all the ships get more and more "optimized" as you progress through the timeline.

As for advanced era, just say no!  

I still pefer EAW. I get fits with lag and drops on OP.

-S'Cipio of the Olde School  

I am also not a big fan of X ships. Of course, I am also not a big fan of CA and DN hulls.

If I want to play X ships, I can fire up SFC3 (yikes!). I do like the pirate cartels though,  and I had hoped they would catch on better than they have. Unfortunately, it takes a much large player base and a stable dynaverse that can support more numbers on line than is currently (as well as when OP came out)  the case.

I am willing to give a new shiplist with fewer fromage X ships a chance.


 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
If it goes OP, and I am really wanting to lean that way, then it would most definetly have the OP+ shiplist.


And Doggy, there is a way of making the "Less wanted" ships  not appear in the yards, or even as AI if wanted, all without having players download anything other then the "true" OP+ list.   It can all be done server side.
 

Are we talking about "R"estricting them or making them "special"?  If so, yeah...I knew about that bit.


My main concern would be zero overlap of obsolete variants and newer variants.  I hate seeing B-refits or even C-variants in the yards when it should be creating K's and L's and W's...heheh.



 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
hehe, I already had considered doing Storm Season for OP and had a map done and server setup almost completed, when I finally talked to Jeff and found out his plans.   Jeff I would definitely go to OP on this one and use Firesouls list.  I have some ideas I need to talk to you about too that might fit in with OP.

As far as race changes, I was thinking along the same lines with changing the Hydrans and Lyrans.  Im also with Dogmatix here on reducing the YLA's.  Although I approve of Firesouls reasoning for doing his +2 YLA's for his shiplist, it doesnt help in a D2 envirorment.  His shiplist is designed for both D2 and GSA play.  I dont want to see the shipyards  cluttered with ships that wont be bought because the refit is already there.

Also, I did notice alot of tugs and monitors appearing as AI on LB3 too using Jeffs list.  We will have to look at how that might be toned down a bit.

Oh well, great stuff Jeff.    I think this should be a really good campaign.   Oh and "REMEMBER PINKY GEN!"

God, I still have nightmares about that.  

Ok Im off to my new secret project .............

 

Cool...it sounds like many of us are on the same wavelength.  I wouldn't be adverse to a swap of Hydran and Lyrans.  Geographically speaking, it makes sense.  If current player population numbers are what I think they are, it might make sense from a population standpoint, too.


I still remember that Friday afternoon when the Feds stole a heavily defended (50 DV) Starbase Chris Lee right out from under my nose.  I had been on most of the day and just never noticed it until it was too late to stop the momentum.  We tried, but decided we had to let it fall and take a step back to regroup.  I thought the tide on the Gorn/ISC front was about to take a turn for the worst, but by the end of that weekend, we had it back and a major crisis was averted.  So many little firestorms blazed up over the course of that campaign.

I just can't think of a single campaign that had so many crucial battles that those who were involved will remember for a long time.  AOTK had a few (Kahless' Pride and Letak), but CW6 was just wall-to-wall, end-to-end, sheer, naked, agression and unadulterated carnage.


I agrre that FireSoul's shiplist is fine in terms of it being a multi-platform shiplist.  His feelings on that are correct.  I feel, however, that  D2 is best suited to the no-overlap convention of LYAs and FYAs.






 

[Cleaven]

I was hoping that FS would have a generic OP+ pretty much nailed down, so that a D2 specific version could be spun off by individual admins pretty quick, with no changes to ships, just to their classes and types, so that BPV Vs PP costs could be altered and availability changed as desired.

Also the changed nature of the game population still favours shorter Vs longer servers. Maps have to reflect the smaller overall numbers with a server max of 50 being suffucient. Working from a guesstimate of 20-25 coalition players being in the fun-zone, you could distribute those between the empires at about 1 or 2 Lyran, 4 or 5 Romulan, 3 or 4 Kzin and the rest Klingons. No point in raging war over the entire quadrant, when this will drop to 3 or 4 Coalition players in off-peak.

And with a shorter server, or one that resets or stops at era changes, you can redo prices etc to address any player number balance issues as well as changes in player tempo.

As for X-ships, early MIRV's will kill things unless everybody else has something comparable. If somebody wants to have a go at an Advanced era scenario then set it up and run it for a couple of weeks, but it would be a shame to put up a great concept server only to have the finale ruined by unbalanced X-ships in the last week or so. My personal preference would be to end the server five or so days after KCR's (and KHK's) become available, since these seem to be classed as toooo much of everything by some people, but Roms do so look forward to their arrival. (Of course I will probably still be in a Sabretooth refit at this time, and loving it!)    

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Well, we got about four weeks out of AOTK with fairly sustained numbers throughout.  As usual, things tailed off from one team's standpoint after the result was pretty much decided, but other than that, as long as things remain competitive, I think we can do 4-6 weeks.


I'd like to see some scheduled down time during the week...maybe Tuesday and Thursdays or something like that.  That gives the admins time to deal with issues and players time to take a breather.


I think FS's OP+ shiplist takes your concerns into account already, Cleaven.  It pretty much is ready to go in the sense that you describe.  The only changes we might needs are LYA tweaking, as class tweaking.  As for MIRVs, Luc made the Z-CCZ a 2nd-generation X-ship and comes out at the same time everyone elses XCAs come out.  He has the 1st generation X-ships all being SFB-style 1st generation x-ships.  No MIRVs.



 

[Fluf]

Hehe, the "all powerfull MIRV".  Spoken in the same breath with the "Magic Photon" and the "G-Rack"  

Geesh guys its only 1 point of damage lol.

Or as we Kzin like to call it, "Death by a thousand cuts!"

........Fluf goes running into the night screaming ............Mirvs  MIrvs Mirvs...............................

[KBF-Dogmatix]

No value judgement here...was just stating a fact.  Some people see the advent of the Z-CCX in 2293 as being "all she wrote."  Not I.  I seem to remember doing quite well vs. a KOTH-captained CCX on The Triangle one night...