Topic: CW8(8.5)....The winds of war blow again..... (Read 8095 times)

Capt Jeff · « **on:** May 12, 2003, 10:30:23 am »

Capt Jeff paced accross the bridge of the USS Crasher. He was tense. "I knew these terrible days would not be far off" he said to himself.

Not even a year had gone by since the end of Hostilities. The "Storm season" as many called it had been brutal in the amount of lives lost, but most empires gained little, if anything from it. And now it seemed to be starting again already.

Borders are being closed. Starbases are being fortified. Fleets are being put in positions that only war would mean.

"Tactical, report". "All weapons systems are functional, shields and fighters at the ready. The 1AF and FPF fleets are arriving at designated coordinates". "Good" Jeff responded. "Signal command that task force beta in in position".

The time for war is soon.................................

Watch for futher updates, as this campaign comes to life.

Storm Season II.....Brought to you by:

gornrule · « **Reply #1 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:08:52 am »

sweet

KOTH-Steel Claw · « **Reply #2 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:29:56 am »

::jumping up and down applauding::

woo-hoo!

NuclearWessels · « **Reply #3 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:42:18 am »

Cool Jeffy !

dave

Fluf · « **Reply #4 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:56:48 am »

Ive been waiting for this! Jeff, contact me if you need any help.

Cleaven · « **Reply #5 on:** May 12, 2003, 05:28:50 pm »

Wooot!

(It wouldn't happen to be on OP would it? Yes, I know. You haven't decided yet.)

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #6 on:** May 12, 2003, 05:31:54 pm »

I vote F-G-L-I vs. K-M-R-H.

Matsukasi · « **Reply #7 on:** May 12, 2003, 10:24:25 pm »

Quote:

I vote F-G-L-I vs. K-M-R-H.

hehehe

Hondo_8 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:12:30 pm »

My vote would Fed, Klink, Vs the rest. Why you ask? I will tell you.

The Romulans seek an advantage there Empire is slowly ebbing away. Theie alliance with the Klingons has cost them more in resources then there gains are. Their agents in the Minor races report that there is a under current of feelings of represion, the Empires of the Gorn, Mirak, and Hydran feel that the Federation is sweeping away there Heratige. That the the Federation is slowly eroding away there pride. The empires of the Lyrans, ISC, as well as the Romulans are growing impatient under the Klingon Leader ship. Much of the resourse of this Empires are being diverted to more and more Klingon Milatary Programs. The Romulans see an oppurtinity to gain Ground on the Klingon and Federation Empires by using the Minor races growing undercurrent of discoutntent with there major Allies to catapult the Romulans into the solatary power crushing the klingon and federation empires with a suprise attack from there once respected allies. Knowing the bitter hatred exsiting between the Klingon and Federation Empires, the Romulans feel that there would an inabilty for those two long term Empires to oppose this New Movement for Power and will crumble and the Romulans could Expend leaving the left overs for the Minor Races to squable over. Yes The Romulan Emppire would truely become mighty once more....

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #9 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:18:46 pm »

The time this matchup was tried in the past proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the Klingon/Fed team needs at least one more race. When this was done before, The Blue Plague was in full effect and the K/F team got whacked. Granted..the Early Era start didn't help much. Now, while the Feds can still field more players at any given time than any other single race, they cannot be counted on to field what they used to. I don't think the Klingon Empire is quite as sizeable as it once was, either.

Nope...while i'm not adverse to alignment with the Freds, there's no way The Feds and Klingons can handle the combined forces of the rest of the community. Now..if we want to make it a defensive scenario for these two races, it's possible it could work. I just wouldn't expect much in the way of offense. Perhaps SG3 will give us an idea of what sort of player base is left, though the Tholians are likely to skew things a bit.

Hondo_8 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:25:22 pm »

Very true, though rember the Campaign when it was the ISC and Klinks? They were allowed to get on the server to set up/ stage for attacks. I think we could do this and make it fun. Just think if we had High Dvs in the Fed/Klink space and low Dvs in the rest. Yes it might turn defensive...but we could halfway through the game switch a race over to Fed/Klink, and to make it even more challenging fun is randomly pick the Empire that returns to the fold.

A small fun sever with this Idea might be fun to try, sorta test the waters, Im not adverse to playing a Defensive battle and you now that the PvP would be fierce with only two Races allied together, hehe

jimmi7769 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:27:51 pm »

The only real problems would arise when you Feds kept "Accidentally" running into Klingon T-Bomb Showers ;-)

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #12 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:28:26 pm »

I don't even want to think about that campaign. Never was a larger instance of highway robbery perpetrated on one team in the history of this game. No..it's best not to harken back to that particular instance.

Hondo_8 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 12, 2003, 11:52:44 pm »

I was thinking more along the lines of how that campaign was out lined and set up, It was rather ingenoiuse. I think there was alot of good things displayed in layout and the Idea of the whole thing was great. Just shooting Ideas off anyway. I liked the large maps, but with the current mission set being alot more harder including assualts a map that size would take forever. I guess what Im saying is that we can always throw in some "origianl missions" to stimulate Movements, and "Evil" missions to bog down drives. If the Fed/Klink missions were easer then those of the enemies I think that would counter the numbers. Map size seems to be getting smaller promoting quicker PvP, and also stimulates more Cruiser battles. But since we have Dread rules a larger map could be used to incourage longer drives, yes the pvp is not there, but you reopen more stratigic options for approaching your enemy and also when the enemy is met there will be some fearce fighting.

Capt Jeff · « **Reply #16 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:41:37 am »

Lets see....

Campaign could go EAW or Op at this time as I have server kits for both with the settings just the way I like them....

SQL would be a plus, but I suppose it's not needed for this type of campaign.

As for sides....remember this is a continiuation of CW6, so the sides would be pretty much the same with maybe 2 doing a flip flop due to differences since the last war....Map would look familiar as well...

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #21 on:** May 13, 2003, 02:18:01 pm »

Now, why didn't I think of that, DH123, whoever you are!? heheh...

I think you're right on the money. Moggy and I were talking about this and I gather he has talked with Jeffy as well. This would be a great opporunity to see if OP D2 is really up to the task. I think it is, but this would settle things once and for all.

I'm all for using FireSoul's list, too...but some considerations will have to be made so that the shipyards aren't full of stuff no one is going to fly and you're fighting tooth and nail to get your hands on a measly NCL+ or D5K. I also think LYAs of ships should sharply coincide with the FYAs of their upgraded versions. This will only help improve shipyard selection.

Also..since we have the Advanced Era to consider in OP, I'd also like to see the Early Era skipped altogether, otherwise we might never get to the advanced era.

Capt Jeff · « **Reply #25 on:** May 13, 2003, 02:30:45 pm »

If it goes OP, and I am really wanting to lean that way, then it would most definetly have the OP+ shiplist.

And Doggy, there is a way of making the "Less wanted" ships not appear in the yards, or even as AI if wanted, all without having players download anything other then the "true" OP+ list. It can all be done server side.

Capt Jeff · « **Reply #26 on:** May 13, 2003, 02:32:53 pm »

PS...I think Steel-Claw may be onto something !!

jdmckinney · « **Reply #27 on:** May 13, 2003, 02:33:44 pm »

Sfaret, not to poop on anyone's parade, but neither flatfile nor SQL databases have proven they can run for anywhere near that long without major problems. Even the maintenance starts to cause issues. Plus, the longer a campaign stretches, the more likely people would get tired of the same setup and the eventual proliferation of large ships.

If anything, campaigns should work toward longer runs in increments, steadily pushing the envelope of what can be done. Going full speed ahead into even a 3-month run would be a little too much. Maybe I'm overcautious, but the history of DB problems is a serious concern.

On the subject of a joint effort to provide a campaign on OP that comes from SFC2.net designers/admins, I'm certainly open to exploring ways to team up, but I think the various admins need to discuss such things before anyone gets ahead of themselves. OP is now capable of supporting a major campaign, so anything that helps showcase that capability is cool in my book.

FireSoul · « **Reply #29 on:** May 13, 2003, 02:57:36 pm »

OP+ 2.0's shiplist had an overlap of 3 years for refits.. while the OP+ 2.1c has an overlap of 2 years, which should be a good improvement. It's all in how you view it.

As for cutting out crappy ships, it has to be tweaked on the server's end. I found there were WAY too many tugs appearing on Reclamation, so I'm wondering if anythign could be done for that.

-- Luc

PS: Commando ships are already marked as SPECIAL. Scouts too. Survey vessels are marked as normal ships since some of them can actually have some firepower.

Fluf · « **Reply #31 on:** May 13, 2003, 03:19:55 pm »

hehe, I already had considered doing Storm Season for OP and had a map done and server setup almost completed, when I finally talked to Jeff and found out his plans. Jeff I would definitely go to OP on this one and use Firesouls list. I have some ideas I need to talk to you about too that might fit in with OP.

As far as race changes, I was thinking along the same lines with changing the Hydrans and Lyrans. Im also with Dogmatix here on reducing the YLA's. Although I approve of Firesouls reasoning for doing his +2 YLA's for his shiplist, it doesnt help in a D2 envirorment. His shiplist is designed for both D2 and GSA play. I dont want to see the shipyards cluttered with ships that wont be bought because the refit is already there.

Also, I did notice alot of tugs and monitors appearing as AI on LB3 too using Jeffs list. We will have to look at how that might be toned down a bit.

Oh well, great stuff Jeff.

I think this should be a really good campaign. Oh and "REMEMBER PINKY GEN!"

God, I still have nightmares about that.

Ok Im off to my new secret project .............

Scipio_66 · « **Reply #32 on:** May 13, 2003, 03:20:13 pm »

I would prefer starting in early era. Though perhaps part way through early era, to allow for a few refits, so that empires get tossed into the war the ships they thought they would need to fight it. Personal preference here. Early is my favorite, as all the ships get more and more "optimized" as you progress through the timeline.

As for advanced era, just say no!

I still pefer EAW. I get fits with lag and drops on OP.

-S'Cipio of the Olde School

Cleaven · « **Reply #36 on:** May 13, 2003, 09:47:04 pm »

I was hoping that FS would have a generic OP+ pretty much nailed down, so that a D2 specific version could be spun off by individual admins pretty quick, with no changes to ships, just to their classes and types, so that BPV Vs PP costs could be altered and availability changed as desired.

Also the changed nature of the game population still favours shorter Vs longer servers. Maps have to reflect the smaller overall numbers with a server max of 50 being suffucient. Working from a guesstimate of 20-25 coalition players being in the fun-zone, you could distribute those between the empires at about 1 or 2 Lyran, 4 or 5 Romulan, 3 or 4 Kzin and the rest Klingons. No point in raging war over the entire quadrant, when this will drop to 3 or 4 Coalition players in off-peak.

And with a shorter server, or one that resets or stops at era changes, you can redo prices etc to address any player number balance issues as well as changes in player tempo.

As for X-ships, early MIRV's will kill things unless everybody else has something comparable. If somebody wants to have a go at an Advanced era scenario then set it up and run it for a couple of weeks, but it would be a shame to put up a great concept server only to have the finale ruined by unbalanced X-ships in the last week or so. My personal preference would be to end the server five or so days after KCR's (and KHK's) become available, since these seem to be classed as toooo much of everything by some people, but Roms do so look forward to their arrival. (Of course I will probably still be in a Sabretooth refit at this time, and loving it!)

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #37 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:24:32 pm »

Well, we got about four weeks out of AOTK with fairly sustained numbers throughout. As usual, things tailed off from one team's standpoint after the result was pretty much decided, but other than that, as long as things remain competitive, I think we can do 4-6 weeks.

I'd like to see some scheduled down time during the week...maybe Tuesday and Thursdays or something like that. That gives the admins time to deal with issues and players time to take a breather.

I think FS's OP+ shiplist takes your concerns into account already, Cleaven. It pretty much is ready to go in the sense that you describe. The only changes we might needs are LYA tweaking, as class tweaking. As for MIRVs, Luc made the Z-CCZ a 2nd-generation X-ship and comes out at the same time everyone elses XCAs come out. He has the 1st generation X-ships all being SFB-style 1st generation x-ships. No MIRVs.

Fluf · « **Reply #38 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:57:30 pm »

Hehe, the "all powerfull MIRV". Spoken in the same breath with the "Magic Photon" and the "G-Rack"

Geesh guys its only 1 point of damage lol.

Or as we Kzin like to call it, "Death by a thousand cuts!"

........Fluf goes running into the night screaming ............Mirvs MIrvs Mirvs...............................

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #39 on:** May 13, 2003, 11:13:35 pm »

No value judgement here...was just stating a fact. Some people see the advent of the Z-CCX in 2293 as being "all she wrote." Not I. I seem to remember doing quite well vs. a KOTH-captained CCX on The Triangle one night...

Cleaven · « **Reply #40 on:** May 13, 2003, 11:14:55 pm »

Yes the MIRV, spoken in the same hushed tones as fast plasma (what a lemon) and ESG Lance (very handy if you get close) and the snare. Now I shall just add up the number of servers that came to a ugly halt because of the arrival of the ESG lance and fast plasma. Looks like I won't even have to put down my beer and burger to count them on my fingers. And it's not even the weapon itself, just the arrival time that is the issue.

Of course I'd prefer not to even go into advanced era, and therefore avoid the whole problem.

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #41 on:** May 13, 2003, 11:31:45 pm »

Luddite!

Cleaven · « **Reply #42 on:** May 13, 2003, 11:57:33 pm »

As I've said before on numerous occasions, if you can't handle an early era ship, with single digit shields, a couple of Ph2's and one heavy weapon only, you don't know what fun is. And just think of the language skills you pick up in the process. I'm sure the loved ones who share your domicile will note the increase in verbal acuity as you alpha strike for single digit damage to your equally pitiful enemy.

Fluf · « **Reply #43 on:** May 13, 2003, 11:58:13 pm »

Hehe, Luddite.

Cleaven to the rescue again.

I wish there was a way to balance the X ships and make them a little more balanced. Hell I would like to see X3 and X4 ships brought in per SFB so we could fill out the timeline all the way to SFC3. Geesh sounds like another project. Ill add it to my list of "things to do"

Cleaven · « **Reply #44 on:** May 14, 2003, 12:33:13 am »

Heck, I keep looking at that snare thingy and wonder about Tholians.

As for balancing X-ships, I'm sure something can be arrived at, but you would want to run an X-only server for a couple of weeks to get some info to work with. The only proviso is why do a lot of work on something that doesn't have too much interest? As in intellectual problem it is significant, but the demand is unknown at this time.

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #45 on:** May 14, 2003, 12:35:29 am »

Galaxies At War!!!!...

What we need is an unstoppable enemy inserted near the end of the campaign...one that forces the empires to band together with the emerging X-tech...something where one cruiser would take a small multi empire fleet to destroy........oh.....damn...was right there too......

near the end of the campiagn....unleash the admins with modded monsters wearing Andro skins

Fluf · « **Reply #46 on:** May 14, 2003, 12:55:44 am »

Exactly Crim, let loose the dogs of war. GAW with the andros! Make the X ships have to fight something that makes them look puny. Even though it might not be SFB based Andros, with the weapons available, Im sure we can come up with some pretty nasty little monsters to give everybody a thrill.

Cleaven · « **Reply #47 on:** May 14, 2003, 12:57:52 am »

Since I don't feel like shutting up at the moment:

I also thought that the ISC should be used as a campaign ending tool. Let the traditional Coalition and Aliiance fight it out and towards the end take the losers out, fit them out as the ISC, and let loose the dogs of war again. And as a bonus the winners of the first round get to change over to whatever of the losers empires they want to, to fight against the ISC. I'm not implying that the losers are captured, just that it has novelty value. So you have players who really are on the same team flying together against the new enemy, who just happen to be the old enemy.

Then make your Andromedan monsters, (or pirates) and repeat the process. This gives you the possible outcome of ISC Vs Andromedan monsters in the closing days. Essentially though it is a team game that would only work with people who are prepared to change uniforms after being beaten, and have another go, instead of taking their balls (hellbores?) and going home.

Matsukasi · « **Reply #48 on:** May 14, 2003, 01:04:17 am »

I can get behind that idea, Cleaven. Kudos on the brainpan usage.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #51 on:** May 14, 2003, 08:15:45 am »

Well, this is really becoming very funny.

Funny in that we're finally moving toward exactly the kind of campaign setup SFCX has been wanting to do for a year, but had to wait on OP fixes to try.

Our goal for Theatres of War (ToW EDIT: TIDES of War) was for mini-campaigns that focused on a certain front or fronts, for limited runs with specific objectives. There are several bonuses to this. For one, you can pit empires against each other who match up well. You can also use inactive empires as some of the "missing" races like the WYN, LDR (as proper independent states), Tholians, and --gasp!-- Andromedans. When the ISC appear, they would appear in all their Z-refit glory, instead of as some SFC-ized neutered race. They'd be a force to be reckoned with. The WYN War of Return could be done. Andromedans could be flown as player ships against SFB-style Xes without tacking it on at the end of a running campaign. The list goes on.

Players would be able to pick and choose which minis they wanted to play on. When a player's favorite race wasn't present, they could choose to bolster the numbers of their allies who are on the front being showcased. Multiple admins could coordinate running a couple minis at the same time between runs of more ambitious General War campaigns that would include most or all of the races. Each mini could have a customized shiplist when needed. The map effects from one mini could be carried into the next mini or general run.

This (and more) is what SFCX has envisioned and been trying to work toward. Now that OP can support the tactical map game, and players are trying OP D2 again, the time is right to start planning these things.

But, a CW run is a different animal -- and a good idea. Let's get back to killer campaigns and look to the future.

EDIT: Stumpy reminded me of the proper name of SFCX's ToW campaign series-in-planning, "Tides of War." Memory is a fragile thing.

Cleaven · « **Reply #52 on:** May 14, 2003, 08:34:29 am »

Yes, ever since Drall (I think?) starting describing East Front and West Front servers (or was it Old World and New World?) to deal with the excessive number of players. Of course now supporting large player numbers aren't too much of an issue, but the novelty factor is, so as to encourage more players.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #54 on:** May 14, 2003, 09:18:53 am »

I think the old ideas about crossing SFC2 platforms to run multi-universe servers, and ideas on running different fronts to accomodate all players when pop limits couldn't, were what sparked the idea of mini-campaigns. I think Stumpy was among the first to bring it up in the forums, and once the discussion took off, SFCX decided to try to come up with a way to make it work.

The advantage of mini-campaigns is that not only can you handle the player numbers when they're high (and I think we all want to see that again), but you can also scale things to fit the times when numbers are down. It's a lot more flexible than a 3+ month campaign that needs constant tweaking and maintenance, plus infusions of interesting stories and VCs to keep the excitement up when they sometimes become one-sided battles.

The ToW format can handle sweeping story arcs and war on a galactic scale while not sacrificing the point of the D2 -- to get fleets of players working toward their empire's goals of expansion, defense, or exploration.

Cleaven · « **Reply #55 on:** May 14, 2003, 09:31:31 am »

Sadly expansion and exploration imply those vast expanses of neutral hexes we've seen in the past, and without neutral co-op I am just not in the mood for treking across 30 or 40 hexes on my own with 10 other players. I did it for the last time on IDSL and it passed quickly enough so as not to be too much of a drawback, but not again. Just my opinion.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #56 on:** May 14, 2003, 09:44:53 am »

When I talk of expansion, I'm really using a euphemism for invasion.

When I talk of exploration, I think of neutral areas for solo players to find VCs or add to their empire's economy when there's no PvP or attack/defend coop to be had. It is very hard for newbies (and we do want more newbies) or others to feel like they're contributing to a campaign if they're just going into enemy space to get their ship blasted out from under them. We always need some neutral area to allow people to get out of starter ships or poor replacements, or just kill time against the AI until things get more exciting. We just don't need a lot of neutral space -- and in fact it is proven to hurt campaigns as long as neutral coop is a hit-or-miss proposition.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #57 on:** May 14, 2003, 09:48:37 am »

By the way, that's another advantage of the mini-campaign approach: you can start the empires close together with shorter run times and focused VC goals. If you start people in decent ships (getting better as the minis move forward in the timeline), then you can get right to the business of war.

Cleaven · « **Reply #58 on:** May 14, 2003, 09:50:10 am »

Yes, although friendly frontier space which is not at max DV is probably a more appropriate place for a beginner to be. Let the enemy fight throught the neutral space and then come up against maxed out DV's.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #59 on:** May 14, 2003, 09:52:40 am »

I notice my posts have gotten off the topic. While I think discussion of campaign formats and maps is a good thing we should always be doing to make the game better, I'm sorry to have nearly hijacked the thread.

Jeff, are you looking at a particular timeframe for this campaign? Is there a lot of work to be done, or is it essentially waiting for a time slot?

Cleaven · « **Reply #60 on:** May 14, 2003, 10:01:30 am »

My thoughts on scenarios (sadly I can't get to the stuff I wrote about scenarios in the old forums) were that players should start in CL's. If they stuff up, they get a DD. After a quarter of the server has passed they should be in CA's and halfway through BC's should be the ships of choice. DN's should have something special, whether it be lucky numbers or PvP kill rewards or whatever. Assuming a large amount of PvP, by the end there will be a fair proportion of players in BC's, most will be in their third or fourth CA, and a few poor souls taking command of their tenth CL.

DH123 · « **Reply #61 on:** May 14, 2003, 01:07:08 pm »

The end of the world is near. Start investing in canned food and shotguns folks.

I actually agree wholeheatedly with both Dogmatix and Cleaven

Doesn't SFCx have a shiplist with "Andros" in it? I know I got it from one of you a year ago or so. I think a server where the Galactic powers take on the Andros would be wonderful. I suggest using FS's OP+ X-ships as they are from the SFB era that the Andro invasion took place. The "Taldren" X-ships are too advanced for what that Galactic powers had.

Fluf · « **Reply #62 on:** May 14, 2003, 02:02:19 pm »

I agree with Doggy and Cleaven and DH123. I know Moggy and SFCX had been working on the Andros and I think it would be fun. But I alsowould like to see some good X-ships. Either taken from SFB guidelines and/or the Taldren ones reworked to be more balanced with each other. I know there are some good SSD's out there on X3 and X4 ships based on SFB that might work nicely in this scheme. It would definitly take some work to do and some major play testing, but I think worth it in the long run, to bring players in that despise the Taldren X ships as they stand, and hence do not play OP for that reason.

Cleaven · « **Reply #63 on:** May 14, 2003, 09:04:35 pm »

And to divert attention again from large campaign servers for a minute, I think that the shorter scenarios should have replay value. Long servers require a lot of work to 1.) design and 2.) admin during play. After a few go's at it, the Four Powers War short scenario should become a neat little one week session that requires virtually no admin effort to set up and run, and use almost stock player configurations, with most of the changes being server side. Same goes for the ISC invasion scenario and Romulan attck on the Feds and Rom-Gorn war scenarios. Replay value also allows people to get around the issue of only having to play their favourite race for whenever the good servers come up, in so far as you can play Lyran this time around if you want because you know that you can have another go if it doesn't work out. As I think about it now it sounds more like a Tournament server, with a lot of emphasis on balance.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #64 on:** May 15, 2003, 07:02:14 am »

Yes, we would save successful settings and maps and have them ready for future runs. One idea is to go through a General War-style history in roughly chronological order, and then restart at the beginning once it has played out, taking any lessons learned into account.

One of the keys to a ToW model would be to make sure map changes during one run affect the next mini map. We had been planning to have one master map (which Stumpy has already designed), and then keep track of the map changes on our master so each new chapter would have a map based on the latest territorial shifts and relative strengths. If SQL were enabled for OP, we could also start to get into a true OOB with ship assignments, prestige or ship carryover between games, on-the-fly map adjustments, etc.

Even done in small parts, this is a big project, which is why I bring it up as an idea for cooperation among admin groups.

On the Andros (and Tholians, and WYN), SFCX had worked on them last year, but we probably need to revisit them for a fresh look. We would need custom shiplists depending on what races are used. If I ever finish it, we would use a single SFB-based shiplist as a master list that corrects default shiplist errors and adds many ships (though probably not as many as FireSoul's list). The SFB list would be designed specifically for D2 play, though it would be good for GSA play -- just not optimized for it.

However, until we can get such a thing off the ground, we need more good campaigns on OP to rebuild the population.

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Topic: CW8(8.5)....The winds of war blow again..... (Read 8095 times)

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