Topic: I sincerely apologise...

[J'inn]

Quote:
Well I for one am sick and tired of all the tutuphobic, neo-nazi, communist trying to keep a good Gorn down. If Taldren doesn't ban all the tutu haters I swear I will take the tutu off. Then the real flaming will begin.  

Power to the Sexually Questionable and Rather Disturbing!!   No no,  the Tutu Wearing Lizards . . ..   No, erm . .  .   .    .  

Wait a minute!!

But Kroma . . .    I thought you liked it when The Man kept you down.


<runs for dear life>
 

[Karnak]

Quote:

Thus my concern.   The theory of "if you don't like it don't look" notwithstanding,  there is a problem within a small community when people go bonkers and are subsequently kicked out.    Some people are not of the mind set to deal with hardcore public "debate" on social/political issues.  It just asks for people to go over the edge every now and then.

In a large community, no big deal, in one this small it is a problem when people working on major projects for the good of the community go over the edge.

Imagine if Karnak, Dave,  and Tracey all blew a gasket and were kicked out.  Then what? Maybe someone else would step in, maybe not.

As a result I do question whether the risk of a completely off topic, almost no holds barred, forum can be justified.

Should rajanaj have been booted?  Yes.   I saw some of the posts.  They were unbelievable.  Something really drove him over the edge.    My concern is, who's next to go nutso over something that has ZERO to do with the game and is guaranteed to cause strife in the future.

Hopefully it never happens again.  But the risk concerns me.  

Now, this is really sad to see rajnsaj banned.  It make it even sadder that he provided so much techie expertise to D2 the last few months.  Before the regrettable incident, he was simply one of the best people to work with and very well-represented Koth fleet and upheld their values.  If he was in GFL in SFC2 fleet, I would recommend him for promotion.  Maybe, Taldren will give him a break later on. I think he deserves one.

As for your concerns, Jinn. I guess "c'est la vie" applies. No one said life is fair, I guess.  I don't mean toot my fleet's horn but I can't think of a better example right now:  I can freely admit one of the benefits I like about the GFL is that they are strict on nasty forum posts.  So, rajnsaj never would have been provoked in GFL forums.  The fleet COs and Council JAG committee are quick to react.   As one member put it one day not long ago on Teamspeak:  "Let's see, I paid $30-$50 min. for the SFC games, then I pay $40-$50 for my DSL connection. I think I have a right not to have to deal with BS like that." (ie. personal attacks, off-topic posts, questionable jokes, in-dyna play cursing and swearing, etc.  This list can go on forever and each list is unique for every person.)   Just like the old CIC forums there are a lot of people that purposely stay away from Taldren forms for some or all of the above reasons and are already applying Dogmatix's dictum of "Don't like, don't see".

As for blowing gaskets.  I think it boils down to communication.  IMHO, the day people start purposely ignoring each other is the day you know that there will be a blow up and it's time to run for the hills (ie. goto  computer store and get a new game).  

Cocomoe has are really cool quote on this subject in the GFL forums. I hope he does not mind if I use it here cuz I think it's needed:

"To effectively communicate, we must realize that we are all different in the way we perceive the world and use this understanding as a guide to our communication with others."
--Anthony Robbins

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

 

Quote:
I agree completely. But, as per raj's example, it will happen. That's the problem.
 

Who, if anyone, is to blame for someone flying off the handle in the OT forums?

As for the nazi baiting. It is kinda funny to read about them. Sorry, I am just a bit twisted (not like a swastika, dammit).

Maybe a time-out moderator. Something along that line.



 

[J'inn]

I tend to agree with ya Karnack in concept, i.e., that a line needs to be drawn and that people who cross it should be asked to chill out.   In execution (irony unintended), i.e., where the line is drawn,  I think we differ.   This is not to say that I don't see your point.  I do.

I look for the benefit of the type of post (as opposed to the particular post) and think about whether those types of posts' gasoline potential are outweighed by their potential benefit to the goal.     Two goals,  in fact, enjoyment of the Taldren games by the players; and, Taldren making dough.

Based on that I feel that purely political posts offer the following:

1) Very little to enjoyment of the games.  Some enjoy it, some don't. But it's removal would have little effect on game enjoyment as a whole.

2)  Zilch for sales.

But this in and of it's self doesn't bother me.   It's when you factor in the large potential for political posts to start a flame war that I get concerned.

Again, all academic.  I just find this kind of stuff interesting.   Well that and I think Raj's leaving has to some degree damaged the future quality of the game.  Not by a huge amount of course, but the theory of a death by a thousand cuts worries me.


All in all, minor issues in one's life,  but I have a little spare time so what the hell.

 

[Karnak]

Quote:

All in all, minor issues in one's life,  but I have a little spare time so what the hell.

 

Actually, I don't think these are minor issues. About the only true statement I have ever heard at any Timeshare Sales tour in Florida is that leisure time is the most valuable time in your life that you can offer.  So, when someone chooses to give some of that time to you it should not be taken for granted.

I'm sure Rajnsaj will pull out alright.  I have faith he will accept his fate with honor and dignity and will move on or be allowed to move back or will find a way to do what he likes in D2.  Lotsa of other forums exist that are SFC related other than Taldren.  I hope Taldren recognizes that the techie players that put out for D2  can potentially pull in more players to the game which will increase sales.  

Anyway, enough of this DEEP THOUGHTs stuff. I ate 4 donuts today, went throught 2 tornado scares at work (thanks for the thoughts Wanderer ) and now my head REALLY HURTS!!!  Do you know how much fun it is to hang out with your co-worker's in the stair well.  

It's time for a dyna campaign whatever it maybe.  I mean a real good, smack 'em, mash 'em, trash 'em fight. I wanna see Dogmatix, WS and co. making a big mess and the Frogs devouring some Gornos and Freddies cuz that's what we are born to do. Oh yeah, Fluf you just lost your chance at getting a life.  Time to get the borg implants active again for Mirak team, hehe.  First person that let's Chuut draw a "M" in ISC space is going to be cleaning plasma vents for life.

[FPF_TraceyG]

Section 31 has discovered new intel regarding the OT forum.

Kroma Basyl: Undercover agent and one of Chuut's Angels
Assignment: To bring peace in our time to the OT forum
Mission Synopsis: Suicide bomber, with a tutu strapped around his waste, Kroma sneaks into the OT forum at night, whilst the combatants are resting for the next day's flame war. There, he announces his alleigiance to the great Chocadile God in a very loud voice waking everyone and when he has their attention, he detonates the device he is carrying, and <shudder> off comes the tutu! Fortunately, those that survive won't live for very long.
The carnage, the devestation, this Weapon of Mass Destruction has be known to exist for some time now, yet our countries keep stockpiling them.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Again I have to point out that the OT forums are there for ANY and ALL types of posts, be they political, religious (which is uber-political in function), whatever. Thats why there are there.

Any posts of these nature should however be quickly moved to the OT forum from any other forum where they are posted, UNLESS they somehow have an identifiable and justifiable connection to the forum they are being used in.

example: IF, taking into account the fact that in the "Are you a snob?" thread it appears that the biggest group of snobs are those who fly roms, the Federal Government were to suggest a bill that raises the taxes on all rom pilots, then I would think that allowing roms and all others to agree/disagee with this proposed bill would be of prime concern in ALL SFC forums.

However, putting out a post that says, for example, "Teddy Kennedy shouldnt be allowed to drive near water ever again"  in any forum but the OT forum would require its removal to the OT forum.

My 2 fingers of saurian brandys worth.

Have a nice day!  
 

[TOCXOBearslayer]

Quote:
Kroma Basyl: Undercover agent and one of Chuut's Angels

OMG.... Chuut's Angels?

Who is John Bosley?

[Hondo_8]

I wanted to avoid posting in these thread, but I can not since what J'inn has said bothers me.

Quote:


Thus my concern.   The theory of "if you don't like it don't look" notwithstanding,  there is a problem within a small community when people go bonkers and are subsequently kicked out.    Some people are not of the mind set to deal with hardcore public "debate" on social/political issues.  It just asks for people to go over the edge every now and then.

We the community should not be held to a standard of what we post might knock some one off there rocker, or couse a blow up. We do not who is reading our post nor is it posable to know what sort of mental capacity the reader has or state of mind that person is in.  when dealing with Issues on Social/political natures each individual has a standard of tolerence of the subject differing from others.  How then do we judge what is tolerable with in such a community? Shall we strip the privalages of the many who enjoy the OT forums becouse there are a few People who can not handle the nature of post with in the Forum?  The OT forum is not realeted to Taldrean, SF,SF2, SF3, or OP. A user of this forum does not need to go to the OT forums to gather information of Taldrean products. Im grow weary of a society who  excpects that the world will fit there vision and when the world no longer fits the persons vision then the world needs to change.

Quote:

In a large community, no big deal, in one this small it is a problem when people working on major projects for the good of the community go over the edge.

I for one do not want to be held hostage by the few who can produce for this game. Its like the kid with the new baseball glove but will not share it with the guy on the other team with out the glove. And so the Kid with out the glove cant play.  Who judges what is For the Good of the Community? What is the Standard? Hence here we use personal judgment, Most of the forums users are good eggs, and for the Most part we all have good standards of judgments. Its a scary thought that we NEED to appease those few who continue to improve this game when they have a personal issue on a personal level un game related. I am personally thankfully for there hard work, but we have all had the Boss who has asked us to do somthing that might have been on the shady side, like not Talking about an incedent, playing with numbers., ect.

Quote:

Imagine if Karnak, Dave,  and Tracey all blew a gasket and were kicked out.  Then what? Maybe someone else would step in, maybe not.

If they blow a gasket they blow, we can not be expected to walk around on eggshells.

Quote:

As a result I do question whether the risk of a completely off topic, almost no holds barred, forum can be justified.

The OT forum is very justified. People develop stronger bonds when there is passion and heat in arguments. When you get down and dirty with some one you develop a strong bond. Most of us had best friends growing, or brothers and sisters. We fight. We establish our selfs, our views and beliefs by testing them on others. We take away the OT forums we take away a place where Many Taldren fans feel combfortable expressing, challenging, and defending views.  This is another social issue that irks me other then my speeling. Why do the many posters WHO have control and are of Stable mind have a privalage taken away becouse one or a few can not keep his marbles in his bag? It is time for the Individual to take responcabilty for his/her actions and not lay blame on any one else. Joe Camel never stuck a cigerrete in my mouth, nor did McDonalds trick me into ordering Supersizes. Get my Drift?

Quote:

Should rajanaj have been booted?  Yes.   I saw some of the posts.  They were unbelievable.  Something really drove him over the edge.    My concern is, who's next to go nutso over something that has ZERO to do with the game and is guaranteed to cause strife in the future.

We can not worry about who is next to blow there top, nor should we limit our expression in posting in FEAR off knocking some one off there rocker.  Yes individually we can be responcable, but we should not enforce it on others. The best we can do is lead by exemple......Honesty, Respect, Caring, Responcabilty.  Four powerfull words, to live by and be an exemple to others so that they may learn.

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Hopefully it never happens again.  But the risk concerns me.  

J'inn this will happen agin, we both know this More then one person in a room there is going to be conflicts of view. For the most part the vast majority of Posters of Taldrean our good people. We should not let the few take the focus away from the al the good that has been created here.    

[J'inn]

Good post Hondo.  It states the opposing view well.   I continue to feel that political posts (for lack of a better term that isn't too long) cause more trouble than they are worth for these games.

[CptCastrin]

I hate putting on my moderator hat (don't fit right anyway) but ...

This thread started as an appology to the D2 community. From that point it has swung from humorous to serious OT-like commentary.

As such, people, I say let it (the thread) die or someone (possibly me) will be forced to move it to the OT forum as the current "discusion" has no bearing on D2 as such.

Peace out.    

[J'inn]

Quote:


As such, people, I say let it (the thread) die or someone (possibly me) will be forced to move it to the OT forum as the current "discusion" has no bearing on D2 as such.
   

Respectfully,  I disagree.   Raj was working on SQL for EAW and for (I believe) OP.   He was a campaign admin as well and now that campaign is gone.  Thus this has had a direct and negative effect on D2 and is relevent in the extreme.    This is the basis of my concern.   That plus the fact that it all seems very cordial  . . . .

Nevertheless,  unless I hear otherwise from you in consideration of what I have just posted,  I'll consider it as having been deemed OT and let it drop.

[CptCastrin]

Quote:
Respectfully,  I disagree.   Raj was working on SQL for EAW and for (I believe) OP.   He was a campaign admin as well and now that campaign is gone.  Thus this has had a direct and negative effect on D2 and is relevent in the extreme.    This is the basis of my concern.   That plus the fact that it all seems very cordial  . . . .

Nevertheless,  unless I hear otherwise from you in consideration of what I have just posted,  I'll consider it as having been deemed OT and let it drop.  

If the discusion had been about his work and who was going to take it up (btw, I agree, a terrible loss) then I'd agree with you 100% J'inn but the discusion has veared into what the OT forum is and it's impact on the community in the forums at large. Granted it's not the bulk of the the thread.

I'm not planning on labeling this thread in any way. I just wanted to voice my concern that we should keep this thread rellavent to D2 and not vere off too greatly (save for humor sake, that fits all forums ). If people wish to discuss the OT forum then by all means do so ... in the OT forum. So I'm not taking any action at this time, just making an observation and suggestion. I've had no requests etc. on this matter either, this is purely an independant recommendation.    

[Green]

deleted ... as requested.

man you guys type fast ... there had to be 4 posts (to include Castrin's) made in the time I typed it

[Hondo_8]

Im not picking on you J'inn. Im just challenging your opions.

Quote:
I tend to agree with ya Karnack in concept, i.e., that a line needs to be drawn and that people who cross it should be

asked to chill out.   In execution (irony unintended), i.e., where the line is drawn,  I think we differ.   This is not to say that I don't see your point.  I do.

No matter where the line is drawn some one will challenge it, disagree with it, and become angry enough to get them selves banned and for leave the community. It is in debate, difference of opinion where Ideas, beliefes, and wisdom get forged. To limit this sort of interaction where ever it might take place is to limit the potental the community has to offer. It is with in the individuals responcabilty to be responcable and respectful in the manner in which they post and/or respond.

Quote:

I look for the benefit of the type of post (as opposed to the particular post) and think about whether those types of posts' gasoline potential are outweighed by their potential benefit to the goal.     Two goals,  in fact, enjoyment of the Taldren games by the players; and, Taldren making dough.

This is a personal standard, of an individual, and also an individual taking the responcabilty of weighing the good of the following posts in there defined goals. This is fine for an individual, but not all of us hold your standard. It is unreasonable to impose your standards on the community, and/or expect the community to hold to your Ideals.

Quote:

Based on that I feel that purely political posts offer the following:

1) Very little to enjoyment of the games.  Some enjoy it, some don't. But it's removal would have little effect on game enjoyment as a whole.

2)  Zilch for sales.

I disagree. This game is based on a strong community, and tightly knit ties among the posters. Many friends have been made here that started in game and conitinued in our personal lifes, when we chat on MSN we are silly, we are honest, we debate, we our ourselves. This is true for the most part in the OT forums, this is a place for gammers to be themselves and share Ideas, debate, agree, and be silly. Take this away and many many people have lost an outlet to build stronger ties in this community.
As for sales who can say realisticly? How many gammers hung around in theOT forums waiting for SF3? The OT forum was there oly intrest in visting Taldren and by doing so taldren retained there custermers by offering a non gamming Forum.

Quote:


But this in and of it's self doesn't bother me.   It's when you factor in the large potential for political posts to start a flame war that I get concerned.

Again, all academic.  I just find this kind of stuff interesting.   Well that and I think Raj's leaving has to some degree damaged the future quality of the game.  Not by a huge amount of course, but the theory of a death by a thousand cuts worries me.


All in all, minor issues in one's life,  but I have a little spare time so what the hell.

 

Once agin I feel that it is the Individuals of the communtiy that effect the larger picture, and once agin I defend that the majority of posters here are able minded folks. I fear that some of the problem lies with a few who this place and game have become a religeon and those that differ with them beware. There is nothing that we can do for those few who's life revolve around these forums, so why concern yourself with those few folks.  Any thing can start a flame war when there are individuals of great differing opions and a mental stabilty of a game of Jenga.  We are all free to post what we want, where we want, and respond in any manner we choose, our reputations in the forums are built on what we say, and for the most part we are a forgiving community and always welcome back thos that have strayed with open arms. It is those that have crossed the line with Taldren that have to own up to there words and take the responcabilty, We the community are not babby siters nor should we be punished by actions of a few folks who can not restrain them selves. We all have faced the music. Its not the music itself that scares us but how we face the Music when it comes.  Then when it is done we look in the mirror and only you know what you see.  

[Kroma_BaSyl]

Quote:


If the discusion had been about his work and who was going to take it up (btw, I agree, a terrible loss) then I'd agree with you 100% J'inn but the discusion has veared into what the OT forum is and it's impact on the community in the forums at large. Granted it's not the bulk of the the thread.

I'm not planning on labeling this thread in any way. I just wanted to voice my concern that we should keep this thread rellavent to D2 and not vere off too greatly (save for humor sake, that fits all forums ). If people wish to discuss the OT forum then by all means do so ... in the OT forum. So I'm not taking any action at this time, just making an observation and suggestion. I've had no requests etc. on this matter either, this is purely an independant recommendation.      

I think a discussion of the OT forum as it affects the D2 community is relevant in the D2 forum. Although I agree that this thread is about beaten to death anyway.

[CptCastrin]

Quote:
deleted ... as requested.

man you guys type fast ... there had to be 4 posts (to include Castrin's) made in the time I typed it

Who requested something to be deleted?

All I said was let it die and / or take it to the OT forum. The OT Forum discusion is valid and I can say I agree with many points, it just doesn't belong here IMHO. No deletions are needed.  

[CptCastrin]

Quote:
I think a discussion of the OT forum as it affects the D2 community is relevant in the D2 forum. Although I agree that this thread is about beaten to death anyway.  

I can see your logic Kroma (gads, this is wierd, using the word "logic" when refering to a Gorn in a pink tutu ) but ... ah well I'm not going to contribute further to bumping this thread. I've said what I wanted to.  

[J'inn]

Quote:
Im not picking on you J'inn. Im just challenging your opions.

 

I know.  Never a problem.   Now if your post started out with J'inn You Weasel!!!   Well then I would . . .  wel hmmm,  that would be a factual statement.  Lets see . . .

Okay if it started out with J'inn You Moron!!    Well ,   hmm,    noo some truth there too.

Okay maybe J'inn You Bastard!!   Well, no not flaming,  boring, but not flaming.

Okay try this,   J'inn you Communist!!   Okay that would, no wait a minute, . . .  okay well, hmm,

Alright, J'inn you Stealer of Candy from Babies!!     Hmm, no,  can't call that a flame due to the Mars Bar suit.  drat.

Alrighty here it is,  J'inn you Disco Lover!!    Okay, not that,   I still kinda like the Bee Gees

hmm.   EUREKA I GOT IT!!!!      J'inn you Trustwothy Guy!!!     NOW THAT!!!   Would be flaming.

So no,  no offense taken.

BTW:  Hondo,  stop drinking coffee.  

[LongTooth]

Umm if you had a post in the off topic fourm  about the off topic fourm would that not then make it a on topic post there for out of place