Topic: OP+ shiplist version 2.1 is ready and up.

[FireSoul]

I'm making a version 2.1b which is the same as this 2.1 minus the 2/3rds fighters changes. Please wait till I release 2.1b.

.. and I screwed up and deleted the 2.1 site by accident. Oops?
I'm currently writing version 2.1b's site.

anyways.. download 2.1b from here:
 http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=78893&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1



-- Luc

[Klingon Fanatic]

Thank you Firesoul!


KF  

[Cleaven]

Ta muchly.  

[Tumulorum Fossor]

Hail, Firesoul.

(bow, bow, bow)

[Repeat]


Man, it looks like I picked a good time to revisit the forums!

Time to update!



Hey, any Taldren feedback on new arcs, Firesoul?

-TF

[FireSoul]

None.
.. well.. they're all working very hard to get something ready for E3.  .. so ..

[TarMinyatur]

I noticed you placed ADDs in Weapons slots(11-25) instead of Heavy Weapon slots(1-10) where they traditionally go. I assume this makes no difference since they require no energy. If so, that's a good way to relieve the often cramped HW slots.

P.S. Take a look at the WVL and VUL+. Those 2xPlas-R hardpoints are screaming for relief and there's two empty HW slots to use. Unfortunately the KVL would need a Condor UI or similar to split its overstuffed 2xPlas-R. It's not aesthetically pleasing but it works.

P.P.S. I suggest you take a look at the I-CVLS and I-CSZ bpvs. These ships have identical weaponry. The CVLS has one less power, gets 6 fighters(12 bpv), and somehow costs 8 less than the CSZ! The CVLS should be about 8 more than the CSZ...not the other way around. The L-NCA vs NCAL bpv is eye-catching too. 2 bpv gets one heck of a refit.  

[FireSoul]

Quote:
I noticed you placed ADDs in Weapons slots(11-25) instead of Heavy Weapon slots(1-10) where they traditionally go. I assume this makes no difference since they require no energy. If so, that's a good way to relieve the often cramped HW slots.

That's right.

Quote:

P.S. Take a look at the WVL and VUL+. Those 2xPlas-R hardpoints are screaming for relief and there's two empty HW slots to use. Unfortunately the KVL would need a Condor UI or similar to split its overstuffed 2xPlas-R. It's not aesthetically pleasing but it works.

I deemed the UI more important in this case, right off the bat. Sorry.
EDIT: .. although.. you're right. I could split the Rs for the WVL and VUL+ without changing the UI.

Quote:

P.P.S. I suggest you take a look at the I-CVLS and I-CSZ bpvs. These ships have identical weaponry. The CVLS has one less power, gets 6 fighters(12 bpv), and somehow costs 8 less than the CSZ! The CVLS should be about 8 more than the CSZ...not the other way around. The L-NCA vs NCAL bpv is eye-catching too. 2 bpv gets one heck of a refit.    

Allright, I will check these later. They're essentially going into a "TODO" list for a future release.


-- Luc
 

[Corbomite]

ISC light carriers get 8 fighters, not 6.

[Holocat]

Quote:
I noticed you placed ADDs in Weapons slots(11-25) instead of Heavy Weapon slots(1-10) where they traditionally go. I assume this makes no difference since they require no energy. If so, that's a good way to relieve the often cramped HW slots.

I thought that the 11-25 primaries and 1-10 heavies were only observed in SFC3, with OP, EAW and SFC1 observing the rule of any weapon anywhere with all information on said weapon in the specfile.

In modelmanual.pdf for the sfc3tools zip on starfleet universe it states:

  "In SFC I and II, weapons hardpoints were associated with numbers.  There wasn't a distinction between mounts for primary weapons and heavy weapons.  That was all determined in the spec file."

  Who's wrong here?  As i'm getting close to the point where I will have to hardpoint a completely new ship, I am concerned.

I really should ask around about damage points in OP as well, and soon,

Holocat.

[Mog]

Holocat, ideally you need to use ShipEdit to create new ships. In SFC2, the phasers need to be in the phaser section so that the capacitor knows how much power is need to charge them. If you put phasers into a heavy weapon slot in SFC2, it screws the capacitor up.

[FireSoul]

In SFB, the I-CVL gets 9 fighters and is listed at 135 BPV. It has 2 PLaIs on each side..
From my notes:

Quote:

Z refitted ship cost: base SFB BPV + (#plasma-I * 1.5)
Y refitted ship cost: approx: base SFB BPV - (#plasma-I * 3)
- 2 plasma-I removed: -7 BPV

.. so to convert to SFC terms:
2/3 * 9 = 6 fighters  (still gets 9 deckcrews)
I-CVLZ = 135 + 6*2 + 3 = 150
I-CVL = 135 + 6*2 -7 = 140

The I-CVLS also gets 9 fighters and is listed at 145 BPV. It also has 2 PLaIs on each side.
I-CVLS = 145 + 6*2 + 3 = 160
I-CVLP = 145 + 6*2 -7 = 150

The I-CSZ has no fighters, and is listed at 155 BPV/ It has 2 PLaIs on each side.
I-CSZ = 155 + 3 = 158
I-CSP = 155 -7 = 148

Those should be the BPVs and stats for those ships. The I-CVLS really is cheaper than the I-CSZ in SFB.


Next! The L-NCA and L-NCAL..
L-NCA: 146 + UIM Penalty (5) = 151
The L-NCAL isn't anywhere in my books... so I will try to estimate.
+ 2 APR = + 2 BPV
2 ph3s -> 2 ph1s = +2 BPV
Extra Front Shields = +2 BPV
....... would 157 instead of 153 be acceptable?


-- Luc

[Holocat]

The ship i'm making is using a custom built model with taldren textures, ie: scratch.  I still have to convert to .mod, place the dummy objects for damage(?) and hardpoints, center it if not centered properly, and texture it.  It's not a new ship in a sense that it's a custom design, like different power or weapons or something.  It's a new ship, from the ground up.

Thanks for letting me know about the phaser capacitor thing though;  That should save me quite some grief testing.

Speaking of which, I should contact Revenant,

Holocat.

[FireSoul]

Quote:

I thought that the 11-25 primaries and 1-10 heavies were only observed in SFC3, with OP, EAW and SFC1 observing the rule of any weapon anywhere with all information on said weapon in the specfile.
Holocat.  

They seem to be observed in SFC2 as well.
If you put any phasers in mounts 1-10 (heavy weapon slots), the phaser capacitor won't charge. Similarly, if you put a heavy weapon in a phaser slot, other bad things seem to happen concerning charging and power.

However, drones and ADDs don't take any power and it seems to be safe to put them anywhere the UI supports. Use ShipEdit to be able to view which mountpoints are visible and which are not.


BTW: shipedit needs an update for OP:
  - visible mountpoints for PFs.  (I have them all deciphered, they're on my site)
  - DroneControl can go higher than 12 in OP, now.

-- Luc

[FireSoul]

FYI to all..

I've started recieving "NERFED!" comments. Well.........
..  Next time I ask for your opinion before I start changing things, give it. Everything I do in the name of 'balance' will cause someone to be unhappy so voicing opinions is important. If I screw something up, I want to know about it before I do the change and not after.


Case on point, Corbo's comment about the ISC.

Quote:

<Corbomite> the extra fighters on ISC carriers is the only thing that makes them competitive.

Do you agree? Disagree?
Did I do the wrong thing about taking the I-CV with 16 fighters and bringing it down to 12?
That's 2/3rds like everybody else.


-- Luc

[FireSoul]

Here is the data affecting the ISC:

Quote:

I-CVE does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(8). Is 4, should be 6. (MORE)
I-CVEZ does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(8). Is 4, should be 6. (MORE)
I-HDDV does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(10). Is 10, should be 7. (LESS)
I-CVLT does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)
I-CVLTZ does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)
I-CVL does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(9). Is 8, should be 6. (LESS)
I-CVLZ does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(9). Is 8, should be 6. (LESS)
I-CVLP does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(9). Is 8, should be 6. (LESS)
I-CVLS does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(9). Is 8, should be 6. (LESS)
I-CVT does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)
I-CVTZ does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)
I-BTV1 does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)
I-BTV2 does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)
I-BTTV1 does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)
I-BTTV2 does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)
I-CV does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 12, should be 8. (LESS)
I-CVZ does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 12, should be 8. (LESS)
I-CVS does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 12, should be 8. (LESS)
I-CVSZ does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 12, should be 8. (LESS)
I-BB does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(6). Is 6, should be 4. (LESS)
I-BBZ does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(6). Is 6, should be 4. (LESS)
I-AXCVL does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 4, should be 8. (MORE)
I-AXCVA does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(24). Is 8, should be 16. (MORE)
I-BTSF+ does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(16). Is 12, should be 11. (LESS)
I-BTSFR does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(16). Is 12, should be 11. (LESS)
I-MONV does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)
I-MONV+ does not have 2/3 #fighters of deck_crews(12). Is 9, should be 8. (LESS)

It's not that bad, is it?
-- Luc

[Corbomite]

Quote:
FYI to all..

I've started recieving "NERFED!" comments. Well.........
..  Next time I ask for your opinion before I start changing things, give it. Everything I do in the name of 'balance' will cause someone to be unhappy so voicing opinions is important. If I screw something up, I want to know about it before I do the change and not after.


Case on point, Corbo's comment about the ISC.

Quote:

<Corbomite> the extra fighters on ISC carriers is the only thing that makes them competitive.

Do you agree? Disagree?
Did I do the wrong thing about taking the I-CV with 16 fighters and bringing it down to 12?
That's 2/3rds like everybody else.


-- Luc  

Forget I said anything. Do what you like it's your project. I was just dismayed at the fact that when you started this you said it was only to add ships from SFB. Now you seem to want to rework the whole thing. Even Taldren didn't follow their own rules on some ships. Unless you want to test and balance each and every ship to perfection you will always nerf some ships with a blanket policy. The CV class always had 12 in SFC. Losing 2 fighters on the CLV class and 4 on the CV class will hurt, but c'est la vie.

[FireSoul]

It is indeed my project...  but I find it important to ask people's opinions.

Worst case scenario:
-  I throw out version 2.1
-  I rework from version 2.0, minus 2/3rds change
-  I re-release as 2.1b


Since no one told me it was a bad idea, I went ahead with the 2/3rds fighter changes. Now, I have the impression that people think it was a bad idea after all. I need to know if you do or don't want this change to stay.

Corbo obviously thinks not. Anyone else?
-- Luc

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:

Z refitted ship cost: base SFB BPV + (#plasma-I * 1.5)
Y refitted ship cost: approx: base SFB BPV - (#plasma-I * 3)
- 2 plasma-I removed: -7 BPV
.
.. so to convert to SFC terms:
I-CVLZ = 135 + 6*2 + 3 = 150
I-CVL = 135 + 6*2 -7 = 140

The I-CVLS also gets 9 fighters and is listed at 145 BPV. It also has 2 PLaIs on each side.
I-CVLS = 145 + 6*2 + 3 = 160
I-CVLP = 145 + 6*2 -7 = 150

The I-CSZ has no fighters, and is listed at 155 BPV/ It has 2 PLaIs on each side.
I-CSZ = 155 + 3 = 158
I-CSP = 155 -7 = 148

Those should be the BPVs and stats for those ships. The I-CVLS really is cheaper than the I-CSZ in SFB.

Shouldn't the math be:
CVLZ = 135 + 6*2 + 4*1.5 = 153? You appear to be multiplying the number of I-torp hardpoints by 1.5.

Anyways, the listed BPV from OP+ 2.1 shiplist including fighters:
CVL = 134
CVLP = 144 (+10 bpv for Plas-S to PPD refit as per SFB)

CVLZ = 153
CVLS (could be called a "CVLZP") = 153! It essentially got a Plas-S to PPD refit for free, using the otherwise identical CVLZ as a base class. CVLS should be 163 if the CVLZ bpv is correct.

Quote:

Next! The L-NCA and L-NCAL..
L-NCA: 146 + UIM Penalty (5) = 151
The L-NCAL isn't anywhere in my books... so I will try to estimate.
+ 2 APR = + 2 BPV
2 ph3s -> 2 ph1s = +2 BPV
Extra Front Shields = +2 BPV
....... would 157 instead of 153 be acceptable?

The LS/RS Ph-3 to Ph-1 refit is traditionally +4 bpv. The NCAL can carry 4 shuttles. The NCA can carry just 2. Therefore the NCAL can do two 50 point Suicide shuttle overruns instead of just one like the NCA. Nobody really flies the NCA since the CWLP is better in almost every way. The NCAL gets some use though. I'd say that the NCA is slightly overvalued (approx. value is 146-150) and the NCAL is worth 156-160. IMHO of course.

   

[IndyShark]

Firesoul, I like what you are doing and I think it makes sense. I'd keep it the way it is and keep trying to improve it.

[FireSoul]

Oh. You're right.


Z refitted ship cost: base SFB BPV + (#plasma-I * 1.5)
Y refitted ship cost: approx: base SFB BPV - (#plasma-I * 3)
- 2 plasma-I removed: -7 BPV
.
.. so to convert to SFC terms:
I-CVLZ = 135 + 6*2 + 6 = 153
I-CVL = 135 + 6*2 -7 = 140

The I-CVLS also gets 9 fighters and is listed at 145 BPV. It also has 2 PLaIs on each side.
I-CVLS = 145 + 6*2 + 6 = 163
I-CVLP = 145 + 6*2 -7 = 150

The I-CSZ has no fighters, and is listed at 155 BPV/ It has 2 PLaIs on each side.
I-CSZ = 155 + 6 = 161
I-CSP = 155 -7 = 148

Quote:

The LS/RS Ph-3 to Ph-1 refit is traditionally +4 bpv. The NCAL can carry 4 shuttles. The NCA can carry just 2. Therefore the NCAL can do two 50 point Suicide shuttle overruns instead of just one like the NCA. Nobody really flies the NCA since the CWLP is better in almost every way. The NCAL gets some use though. I'd say that the NCA is slightly overvalued (approx. value is 146-150) and the NCAL is worth 156-160. IMHO of course.

The P refit for phasers is +1 per ph3 to ph1... so I think I'm right about that one.
I missed the shuttles, so I would do +2 for the shuttles..

so..  
That brings the NCAL to 159.