Topic: Finally a really good episode of Enterprise... almost (Read 5670 times)

Captain KoraH · « **on:** May 01, 2003, 04:45:51 pm »

Last night's Enterprise was one of the best I've seen. The sub-story of relations between the aliens and humans was really well written. What a great first contact! Aliens who are more advanced but don't want to kill you? What a novel idea!

The conflict between Archer and Trip was also really well written and executed. Have we ever seen Archer more convincingly angry? Most of the time Scott's "angry face" isn't very convincing, but he really impressed me last night. Trip's responce to the bad news was really realistic and in character. What a great scene. This was the best scene of the entire season in my opinion.

The sub-story of Archer and the alien captain was great too. It kept the pace and flow of the episode right on, and introduced us to some important concepts about the aliens without wasting a lot of time. This was arguably the best sub-plot in the entire series, albeit a short one. Surprisingly well written and executed.

The pace of the show faltered only for a moment while Trip tought the cogenitor to read, and I felt a sudden drop in pressure when the cogenitor committed suicide. Why? I think the story was weak there, perhaps better if the teachings of Trip led to an accident or something instead of suicide. But, a small price to pay.

All in all, this was a great episode. Drama, excitement, and yet no gunplay involved. Interesting uses of metaphor, allegory and good old fashioned storytelling. A peculiar departure from the usual Enterprise episodes. I think this episode, while not one of the best ever, rates pretty high. Or maybe Enterprise has lowered my standards. Anyway, I actually liked this one.

Oh, and it was nice to see Citizen G'Kar on screen again. I love that guy, what a brilliantly talented actor.

Scipio_66 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2003, 05:41:16 pm »

Quote:

The pace of the show faltered only for a moment while Trip tought the cogenitor to read, and I felt a sudden drop in pressure when the cogenitor committed suicide. Why? I think the story was weak there, perhaps better if the teachings of Trip led to an accident or something instead of suicide. But, a small price to pay.

I disagree with you here. The moment would have lost its impact if the cogenitor had not died of suicide. This was supposed to demonstrate the level of "empty" it found its life after having its eyes opened by Trip. The moment also had greater impact on Trip this way; he knew he'd made the cogenitor's life so miserable that it considered death preferable. It was a powerful moment.

Quote:

Oh, and it was nice to see Citizen G'Kar on screen again. I love that guy, what a brilliantly talented actor.

Yes, indeed, Andreas Katsulus (sp?) is one of my favorite TV actors. He also played the role of Romulan Commander Tomalok in several episodes of TNG, vanished for a while, and then was brought back in the finale. Of course he's not quite as good an actor as Peter Jurassic, but who is?

-S'Cipio

SghnDubh · « **Reply #2 on:** May 01, 2003, 10:27:51 pm »

Yes, KoraH, I agree---FINALLY a story with some meat.

I'll save you all the long diatribe I usually type because I'm busy fixing BC, but...

Tripp should have been busted a rank.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2003, 10:42:42 pm »

Make trip an ensign? Since when did teaching carry the death penatly? =P

Anyhow, I thought that the end was perfect. It leaves you with moral ambiguity: Was Trip Right? A case could be made either way.

Did 'it' commit suicide because it was taught, or did it commit suicide because they STOPPED teaching it?

That, in my oppinion, has made this one of the best Trek episodes of all time. There is room for debate. It's not cut and paste, right and wrong, good and bad. I love that in a show.

Personally, I still can't pick a side on this one. It's a no win situation. I love it.

Alexander

SghnDubh · « **Reply #4 on:** May 02, 2003, 12:39:06 am »

Not an ensign. Lieutenant Commander. 2 1/2 pips instead of 3. One rank down. If he had been under my command, he would have been busted and confined to quarters for a while.

Tpol should have confined him to quarters or given him a direct order the second time she warned him.

This episode showed judgement errors by more officers than just Tripp.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 02, 2003, 01:02:27 am »

I just like it for that small part inside of you that tells you that maybe, just maybe, despite all of the logic and diplomacy, trip was right. I know on a higher level that he wasn't, but that mixed feeling is great.

Alexander

SghnDubh · « **Reply #6 on:** May 02, 2003, 11:26:33 am »

Well, actually, I believe it didn't give us an answer, or ask us to pick a side: Tripp's or Archer's. It just asked a question:

"What gives one culture the right to impose its morals on another?"

And a VERY good question for certain world leaders today.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #7 on:** May 02, 2003, 04:47:15 pm »

Yeah I see the point about the suicide part.

I was thinking that Trip should have resigned his commission and quit starfleet. That would have made it an award winning episode IMHO. Who would have seen it coming? I like the character, but it would have made good into GREAT.

Kortez · « **Reply #8 on:** May 02, 2003, 06:09:11 pm »

I am with Scippy on this one. The suicide made the entire issue more poignant and left a bigger scar because Trip now has to see that his actions are not only irresponsible, but someone died because of him. Trip is a great advertisement for greater care. Who knows ... one day there might even be rules about this, even a Prime Directive, first contact rules, hmmmm ... what a concept!

There was promise in this show, and it was great seeing G'Kar back, and not as Tomaloc. Andreas is a great actor.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2003, 01:14:19 am »

I don't know... I still think there were better ways than to have the docile and harmless cogenitor commit such an uncharacteristically violent act as suicide. Perhaps it could have actually gotten to climb a mountain, and fallen to it's death? Would that be much different? It would certainly be more believeable.

At any rate, I'm quite pleased that we all agree that this was a truly great episode of Trek. To the naysayers: get a grip man, embrace the future! No trek series has ever been good in the beginning.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2003, 01:20:00 am »

Having said all of this, Picard and Kirk, possibly even Janeway, would have helped. Sisko wouldn't have, mind you, but Bashir would have done it anyways.

Startrek is always about the moral question. What's right? Is it right to let people be oppressed in the name of culture? Is it right to thrash different cultures in the name of western morality?

I love this show. If Enterprise can keep this level of quality up, I see bright things in store for it.

Now GO TO WAR WITH ROMULUS, YOU'RE 3 MONTHS LATE

Alexander

Tremok · « **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2003, 10:17:55 pm »

I suggest you people check the Off Topic forum every once in a while.

http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB15&Number=77405&page=3&view=

Anyway, indeed it was an excellent episode. Even the critics are praising it, calling it among the best, if not *the* best, of Enterprise yet.

Commander Xizor · « **Reply #12 on:** May 03, 2003, 10:36:19 pm »

Pretty much in the real Navy (and I know Trek isn't real, but I like mentioning this for comparison) officer demotions are incredibly rare. If an officer on Enterprise was demoted, his career would essentially be over, and Trip would be on a training facility on Earth somewhere instead of being anywhere near space. In addition, commanding officers pretty much don't have promotion authority for officers higher than an Ensign, meaning Archer would have to go to higher authority to demote Tucker.

Did Tucker make a mistake? Yes - absolutely. Was it a career destroying mistake? No - just a stupid thing for him to do.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 04, 2003, 12:31:15 am »

I dunno about that... DID trip make a mistake? Or did ARCHER make a mistake?

I would have liked it better if the cogenitor had died due to some sort of neural overload; something the scans missed. That way, there would have been a damned fine reason not to interfere.

On the other hand, this is another one of those setups for the Prime Directive again, and the moral would be kind of gone if this were a special case. But I think what they were trying to say is NOT 'don't free the slaves', but 'don't free the slaves unless they WANT to be free'.

To clarify, I mean that if the cogenitor had wanted to learn all of this prior to actually having had learned it, it would have been different. As it stands, Trip introduced a new desire into the cogenitor for freedom, something that OTHERWISE THE COGENITOR WOULD NOT HAVE WANTED.

I love this debate! Few episodes of trek get this much debate, because the moral is usually pretty clear.

Way to go, Bragga!

Alexander

PS plz don't flame me for not hating Bragga

Magnum357 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 04, 2003, 03:08:55 am »

Ya, for once I have to agree. Although I still don't like the inconsistancies of the show to Star Trek time line (damit! Bring a Romluan war for gods sake!) this episodes was top notch!

I also like the Camera work they had for certain shots. It almost seemed like another director was doing this episode this time. And definitly better acting from the cast this time around. They should have done something like this with Nemisis and it wouldn't have bombed so bad.

This episode actually more reminded me of the stories Bablyon 5 had on that show a few years ago which is a little more promising in my opinion.

sjvessey · « **Reply #15 on:** May 19, 2003, 03:43:37 pm »

Well it looks like we in the UK are 14 days behind the States as this episode got its first airing on British TV tonight.

I cringed the whole way through the first 30 minutes. Is Trip a totally brainless moron? Can he simply not grasp that the entire universe is not like the USA circa 2003? Does he not understand that, even on planet Earth, when you're the guest of a strange culture you do what they do and keep your mouth shut?

And where the hell did his sudden interest in this "third gender" suddenly spring from? Surely he'd have been a little bit more interested in engine technology a hundreds of years in advance of his own... rather than the mating habits of aliens. The guy must be seriously repressed. Or just plain weird.

I wouldn't have busted him a rank. I'd have thrown the imbecile in the brig for the rest of the mission and had him court-martialled on returning to Earth.

Hey I finally figured out how the war against the Klingons will start. Trip will tell them that it's real bad to eat live flesh and they should all become vegetarians. He will secretly convert the High Chancellor's (or whatever the head honcho is called) daughter to veganism and it will be WAR!

Oh it's almost more than I can stand. I want to scream.

Sorry I have to totally disagree with everyone else who commented on this episode. Basing a story around this sort of totally unsuble so-called moral dilemna simply shows, in my opinion, lack of respect for the intelligence of the audience. If that's really the best they can come up with this show is doooomed.

Magnum357 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 19, 2003, 08:09:36 pm »

"I cringed the whole way through the first 30 minutes. Is Trip a totally brainless moron? Can he simply not grasp that the entire universe is not like the USA circa 2003? Does he not understand that, even on planet Earth, when you're the guest of a strange culture you do what they do and keep your mouth shut?"

LOL

I swear Trip has got to be a personification of Goerge Bush by B & B!

I'm telling you guys, look at the simularities of the Trip Character to Bush and you tell me their is no relation between the two.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #17 on:** May 20, 2003, 04:38:58 am »

Hehe, some people have opinions that strech WAY out in left field...

sjvessey · « **Reply #18 on:** May 20, 2003, 04:47:34 am »

It's "Regeneration" next Monday... maybe I will like that one....

AngryAndroid · « **Reply #19 on:** May 20, 2003, 06:08:09 am »

Well we got this episode in the UK last night. Seems I recognised the episode from these forums, after 30 minutes I turned it off. I hate all that lovey feely stuff, why cant they just blow stuff up every episode

I like a bit of drama, but I dont want to see it in this form.

P.S. Hi all, I couldnt remember my login (its been a while). I've been browsing these forums every now and again in the hopes of seeing some news on the patch, but I end up reading comments on Enterprise instead hehe.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #20 on:** May 01, 2003, 04:45:51 pm »

Last night's Enterprise was one of the best I've seen. The sub-story of relations between the aliens and humans was really well written. What a great first contact! Aliens who are more advanced but don't want to kill you? What a novel idea!

The conflict between Archer and Trip was also really well written and executed. Have we ever seen Archer more convincingly angry? Most of the time Scott's "angry face" isn't very convincing, but he really impressed me last night. Trip's responce to the bad news was really realistic and in character. What a great scene. This was the best scene of the entire season in my opinion.

The sub-story of Archer and the alien captain was great too. It kept the pace and flow of the episode right on, and introduced us to some important concepts about the aliens without wasting a lot of time. This was arguably the best sub-plot in the entire series, albeit a short one. Surprisingly well written and executed.

The pace of the show faltered only for a moment while Trip tought the cogenitor to read, and I felt a sudden drop in pressure when the cogenitor committed suicide. Why? I think the story was weak there, perhaps better if the teachings of Trip led to an accident or something instead of suicide. But, a small price to pay.

All in all, this was a great episode. Drama, excitement, and yet no gunplay involved. Interesting uses of metaphor, allegory and good old fashioned storytelling. A peculiar departure from the usual Enterprise episodes. I think this episode, while not one of the best ever, rates pretty high. Or maybe Enterprise has lowered my standards. Anyway, I actually liked this one.

Oh, and it was nice to see Citizen G'Kar on screen again. I love that guy, what a brilliantly talented actor.

SghnDubh · « **Reply #22 on:** May 01, 2003, 10:27:51 pm »

Yes, KoraH, I agree---FINALLY a story with some meat.

I'll save you all the long diatribe I usually type because I'm busy fixing BC, but...

Tripp should have been busted a rank.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 01, 2003, 10:42:42 pm »

Make trip an ensign? Since when did teaching carry the death penatly? =P

Anyhow, I thought that the end was perfect. It leaves you with moral ambiguity: Was Trip Right? A case could be made either way.

Did 'it' commit suicide because it was taught, or did it commit suicide because they STOPPED teaching it?

That, in my oppinion, has made this one of the best Trek episodes of all time. There is room for debate. It's not cut and paste, right and wrong, good and bad. I love that in a show.

Personally, I still can't pick a side on this one. It's a no win situation. I love it.

Alexander

SghnDubh · « **Reply #24 on:** May 02, 2003, 12:39:06 am »

Not an ensign. Lieutenant Commander. 2 1/2 pips instead of 3. One rank down. If he had been under my command, he would have been busted and confined to quarters for a while.

Tpol should have confined him to quarters or given him a direct order the second time she warned him.

This episode showed judgement errors by more officers than just Tripp.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 02, 2003, 01:02:27 am »

I just like it for that small part inside of you that tells you that maybe, just maybe, despite all of the logic and diplomacy, trip was right. I know on a higher level that he wasn't, but that mixed feeling is great.

Alexander

SghnDubh · « **Reply #26 on:** May 02, 2003, 11:26:33 am »

Well, actually, I believe it didn't give us an answer, or ask us to pick a side: Tripp's or Archer's. It just asked a question:

"What gives one culture the right to impose its morals on another?"

And a VERY good question for certain world leaders today.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #27 on:** May 02, 2003, 04:47:15 pm »

Yeah I see the point about the suicide part.

I was thinking that Trip should have resigned his commission and quit starfleet. That would have made it an award winning episode IMHO. Who would have seen it coming? I like the character, but it would have made good into GREAT.

Kortez · « **Reply #28 on:** May 02, 2003, 06:09:11 pm »

I am with Scippy on this one. The suicide made the entire issue more poignant and left a bigger scar because Trip now has to see that his actions are not only irresponsible, but someone died because of him. Trip is a great advertisement for greater care. Who knows ... one day there might even be rules about this, even a Prime Directive, first contact rules, hmmmm ... what a concept!

There was promise in this show, and it was great seeing G'Kar back, and not as Tomaloc. Andreas is a great actor.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #29 on:** May 03, 2003, 01:14:19 am »

I don't know... I still think there were better ways than to have the docile and harmless cogenitor commit such an uncharacteristically violent act as suicide. Perhaps it could have actually gotten to climb a mountain, and fallen to it's death? Would that be much different? It would certainly be more believeable.

At any rate, I'm quite pleased that we all agree that this was a truly great episode of Trek. To the naysayers: get a grip man, embrace the future! No trek series has ever been good in the beginning.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #30 on:** May 03, 2003, 01:20:00 am »

Having said all of this, Picard and Kirk, possibly even Janeway, would have helped. Sisko wouldn't have, mind you, but Bashir would have done it anyways.

Startrek is always about the moral question. What's right? Is it right to let people be oppressed in the name of culture? Is it right to thrash different cultures in the name of western morality?

I love this show. If Enterprise can keep this level of quality up, I see bright things in store for it.

Now GO TO WAR WITH ROMULUS, YOU'RE 3 MONTHS LATE

Alexander

Tremok · « **Reply #31 on:** May 03, 2003, 10:17:55 pm »

I suggest you people check the Off Topic forum every once in a while.

http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB15&Number=77405&page=3&view=

Anyway, indeed it was an excellent episode. Even the critics are praising it, calling it among the best, if not *the* best, of Enterprise yet.

Commander Xizor · « **Reply #32 on:** May 03, 2003, 10:36:19 pm »

Pretty much in the real Navy (and I know Trek isn't real, but I like mentioning this for comparison) officer demotions are incredibly rare. If an officer on Enterprise was demoted, his career would essentially be over, and Trip would be on a training facility on Earth somewhere instead of being anywhere near space. In addition, commanding officers pretty much don't have promotion authority for officers higher than an Ensign, meaning Archer would have to go to higher authority to demote Tucker.

Did Tucker make a mistake? Yes - absolutely. Was it a career destroying mistake? No - just a stupid thing for him to do.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #33 on:** May 04, 2003, 12:31:15 am »

I dunno about that... DID trip make a mistake? Or did ARCHER make a mistake?

I would have liked it better if the cogenitor had died due to some sort of neural overload; something the scans missed. That way, there would have been a damned fine reason not to interfere.

On the other hand, this is another one of those setups for the Prime Directive again, and the moral would be kind of gone if this were a special case. But I think what they were trying to say is NOT 'don't free the slaves', but 'don't free the slaves unless they WANT to be free'.

To clarify, I mean that if the cogenitor had wanted to learn all of this prior to actually having had learned it, it would have been different. As it stands, Trip introduced a new desire into the cogenitor for freedom, something that OTHERWISE THE COGENITOR WOULD NOT HAVE WANTED.

I love this debate! Few episodes of trek get this much debate, because the moral is usually pretty clear.

Way to go, Bragga!

Alexander

PS plz don't flame me for not hating Bragga

Magnum357 · « **Reply #34 on:** May 04, 2003, 03:08:55 am »

Ya, for once I have to agree. Although I still don't like the inconsistancies of the show to Star Trek time line (damit! Bring a Romluan war for gods sake!) this episodes was top notch!

I also like the Camera work they had for certain shots. It almost seemed like another director was doing this episode this time. And definitly better acting from the cast this time around. They should have done something like this with Nemisis and it wouldn't have bombed so bad.

This episode actually more reminded me of the stories Bablyon 5 had on that show a few years ago which is a little more promising in my opinion.

sjvessey · « **Reply #35 on:** May 19, 2003, 03:43:37 pm »

Well it looks like we in the UK are 14 days behind the States as this episode got its first airing on British TV tonight.

I cringed the whole way through the first 30 minutes. Is Trip a totally brainless moron? Can he simply not grasp that the entire universe is not like the USA circa 2003? Does he not understand that, even on planet Earth, when you're the guest of a strange culture you do what they do and keep your mouth shut?

And where the hell did his sudden interest in this "third gender" suddenly spring from? Surely he'd have been a little bit more interested in engine technology a hundreds of years in advance of his own... rather than the mating habits of aliens. The guy must be seriously repressed. Or just plain weird.

I wouldn't have busted him a rank. I'd have thrown the imbecile in the brig for the rest of the mission and had him court-martialled on returning to Earth.

Hey I finally figured out how the war against the Klingons will start. Trip will tell them that it's real bad to eat live flesh and they should all become vegetarians. He will secretly convert the High Chancellor's (or whatever the head honcho is called) daughter to veganism and it will be WAR!

Oh it's almost more than I can stand. I want to scream.

Sorry I have to totally disagree with everyone else who commented on this episode. Basing a story around this sort of totally unsuble so-called moral dilemna simply shows, in my opinion, lack of respect for the intelligence of the audience. If that's really the best they can come up with this show is doooomed.

Magnum357 · « **Reply #36 on:** May 19, 2003, 08:09:36 pm »

"I cringed the whole way through the first 30 minutes. Is Trip a totally brainless moron? Can he simply not grasp that the entire universe is not like the USA circa 2003? Does he not understand that, even on planet Earth, when you're the guest of a strange culture you do what they do and keep your mouth shut?"

LOL

I swear Trip has got to be a personification of Goerge Bush by B & B!

I'm telling you guys, look at the simularities of the Trip Character to Bush and you tell me their is no relation between the two.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #37 on:** May 20, 2003, 04:38:58 am »

Hehe, some people have opinions that strech WAY out in left field...

sjvessey · « **Reply #38 on:** May 20, 2003, 04:47:34 am »

It's "Regeneration" next Monday... maybe I will like that one....

AngryAndroid · « **Reply #39 on:** May 20, 2003, 06:08:09 am »

Well we got this episode in the UK last night. Seems I recognised the episode from these forums, after 30 minutes I turned it off. I hate all that lovey feely stuff, why cant they just blow stuff up every episode

I like a bit of drama, but I dont want to see it in this form.

P.S. Hi all, I couldnt remember my login (its been a while). I've been browsing these forums every now and again in the hopes of seeing some news on the patch, but I end up reading comments on Enterprise instead hehe.

News:

Topic: Finally a really good episode of Enterprise... almost (Read 5670 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Captain KoraH

Scipio_66

SghnDubh

Alexander1701

SghnDubh

Alexander1701

SghnDubh

Captain KoraH

Kortez

Captain KoraH

Alexander1701

Tremok

Commander Xizor

Alexander1701

Magnum357

sjvessey

Magnum357

Captain KoraH

sjvessey

AngryAndroid

Captain KoraH

Scipio_66

SghnDubh

Alexander1701

SghnDubh

Alexander1701

SghnDubh

Captain KoraH

Kortez

Captain KoraH

Alexander1701

Tremok

Commander Xizor

Alexander1701

Magnum357

sjvessey

Magnum357

Captain KoraH

sjvessey

AngryAndroid

Topic: Finally a really good episode of Enterprise... almost (Read 5670 times)