Topic: Next "Light" SFCX OP Server? Poll and an "X"cellent idea?

[jdmckinney]

I've been wondering what SFCX might want to do for a followup to Reclamation that could run during SG3 without undermining player numbers there. Today the discussion in FireSoul's shiplist thread about the Z-CCX got me thinking that maybe it would be good feedback for FS and a nice change of pace to run a late/advanced era mini-campaign starting with all X1s released and moving through the 2300 release of the X2 (Taldren) ships. This would provide feedback on the X-ship portion of the list and offer something completely different from SG3 for OP-only players and those who want to blow off steam from SG3. Heck, with Xes, maybe some SFC3 players could be enticed to try it.

We could take a week to get a map together, use the current Reclamation settings, and just start in the early X era. What do you guys think?

SFCX's Next Mini-campaign
X-ship testbed using OP Plus Refit Shiplist -- late and advanced ships only
Something more traditional, like Badlands
A specialist server focusing on the "other" races like LDR, WYN, Tholians, or Andromedans

 

[TOCXOBearslayer]

An OP server that has NO X ships?

I don't care for them...  

[jdmckinney]

Gee, thanks for the revelation.

Really, I KNOW a large portion of people don't like X-ships. Heck, I don't care for the Taldren ones, either. The idea would be to help FS get feedback on the Xes in his shiplist, plus let people have a little fun somewhere that's not a major campaign server. SG3 should suit the anti-X crowd nicely.

[Dizzy]

Quote:
A specialist server focusing on the "other" races like LDR, WYN, Tholians, or Andromedans  

Well, JD... I have monsters the like of which you have never seen in SG3... Stuff that could easily be adapted to use for Andromedans. So I like your last proposal the best. Something with a late era start, a pre-X era and then the X-era... would be too cool.

In my research for workable (read adaptable) Andromedans, high numbers of labs actually work in rapid shield regeneration... Perfect for Andros. Give an Andro Armor and Labs for Hull and PA panels and this way, you give it minimal shielding... which it will regenerate nearly a whole shield in a few seconds with a very high labe rating. So a burst or alpha strike must do over that of the shield value, say a PF rating or above before penetrating... yet would be subject to shield reinforcement... and after hit would nearly come back up to full strength.

I have a complete mod for the tholians. All their ships, PF's, fighters, SSD's, shiplist specs...everything. I even have a web model Wicked Zombie did for me. Tracey is in the slow process of inserting sub routines in mission scripts that enable the charging, ta4rgeting, firing and recharging of a web, complete with special effects.

I think you would have a really trick server if you put in the Wyn, LDR, Tholians, Klingon, another race and introduce an Andromeda invasion on top of it... I'll help you with the research I have done, and give you all the work I did on the Tholians and their mods, and textures. I myself would have to tear myself away from SG3 to play on it... MB I shouldnt post this?

[Cleaven]

If you can think of an angle than work towards something that is not competative with SG3 ie different, but could be attractive to the SFC-TNG players so they might think about giving it a try.

And not much neutral space so co-op will work.  

[FPF_TraceyG]

EAW doesn't have X-Ships, so running an OP campaign to test something that can't be offered in EAW whilst an EAW campaign is running appears to be quite logical to me.

[jdmckinney]

Dizzy, you're right -- all that would be cool. But. It does seem to be a bit more involved than a light server should get. It certainly would have a gee-whiz factor which could hurt numbers elsewhere, so maybe the community can work on something like this for OP for the next schedule break.

I mainly put that option in because we've long wanted to do stuff with the missing races. It would require a new shiplist and considerable testing, especially if there were new scripts. So, let's keep that one on the table as "in development" but not appropriate for immediate release.

Castrin had been working on Andromedans and Tholians some time back -- you should compare notes with him. I think Moggy had some workups for Andros, too.

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

Dammit Diz! With all this talk of what you have done (not to mention the hours you have spent) with SG3, it better be good! Lookin' forward to it's release.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

I'd kinda of like a chance to test the FireSoul's X-refits.  I'd also like to explore the possibility of creating x-ships that make sense if these prove to make none.

I'd always found the stock X-ships to be OTT in comparison to the non-X-boats...but one would expect that.  In X vs. X combat, I found the battles every bit as enjoyable as battles involving non-x-ships.  They required faster reactions times and thinking, but the battles were brutal and competitive.  I'll never forget that night on the Triangle when I was "in the bag' and battling KOTH in x-ship combat.  It was a blast!


I don't turn my nose up at the possibilities X-tech presents.  I think there's some fun to be had there if given the chance.


 

[jdmckinney]

What about the Mirak X-ship power debate? Should a light campaign use a customized OP+ list (in other words, not the same as FS's release, but nearly identical) to test alternate X-ship designs or changes in specs? For instance, should a Z-XCA have more power, as suggested in the OP+ thread?

Personally, I'm partial to the SFB X1 ships, and don't think they would create an imbalance when released in a campaign. However, that needs to be tested. The X2s might also be scrutinized for future custom shiplists.

My main purpose, as a campaign designer/admin, is to find reasonable Xes that can be used in the latest portion of a campaign, or in a specialized campaign (such as one with Andromedans) without causing a mass exodus from a server. X2 tends to cause that, the MIRV-loaded Z-CCX tends to cause that. Maybe SFB X1s wouldn't -- or maybe they would. Either way, there hasn't been much examination of X-ships outside of independent testing and match play.

Obviously, I'm going on the assumption the Xes are what we will focus our next light campaign on, based on my own preference and the feedback here. Now I'd like feedback on what form such a campaign/shiplist should take, so we have time to get it ready.

[FPF_TraceyG]

I suggest starting a light X-ship campaign in late era, 2283. This gives players time to build up prestige before the X-ships become available, so that X-ships are being flown shortly thereafter just as it would happen in a long term campaign. Starting the campaign in late era also gives a better indicator on what effect X-ships have when first unleased into sea of players already well-stocked with late era ships, as you would expect in a long term campaign.
For the shiplist, I recommend using the changes outlined elsewhere, that is, the X1 ships (released 2293), however, I also recommend retaining all the stock X-ships as well (released 2300). The effect of both types of ships need to be observed, in my opinion, in order to make a better evaluation. I would suggest running the campaign at one day = one game year. This gives players a ful ten days to accumulate enough prestige befire the first X-ships become available, and also allows for the creation of an environment that better simulates conditions in a long term campaign. This also gives 7 full days of evaluating X1 ships before the rest of them are available.

[DH123]

Quote:
I'd kinda of like a chance to test the FireSoul's X-refits.  I'd also like to explore the possibility of creating x-ships that make sense if these prove to make none.

I'd always found the stock X-ships to be OTT in comparison to the non-X-boats...but one would expect that.  In X vs. X combat, I found the battles every bit as enjoyable as battles involving non-x-ships.  They required faster reactions times and thinking, but the battles were brutal and competitive.  I'll never forget that night on the Triangle when I was "in the bag' and battling KOTH in x-ship combat.  It was a blast!


I don't turn my nose up at the possibilities X-tech presents.  I think there's some fun to be had there if given the chance.


 

Can't an "X" variant of any ship be made simply by:

+50% Warp
+50% Shields
- Ph-1 swapped for Ph-X
- Point Defense increased (Ph-3 swapped for Ph-G within reason, additional AMD/Plasma D added.  This seems to be the only subjective variable)

I've done this with the Battlecrusiers of different races in my TNGish mod to represent the  "legacy" ships (many Mirandas and Excellsiors were still around in the Dominion War).   I kind of makes sense as though a BCJ or C7 with the X-refit above isn't quite up to the new XCAs of the 2300s, it still is pretty darn good.

Example:

Designation: K-zC7X
BPV: 259
Crew: 55
Marines: 20
Shield 1: 54
Shield 2 & 6: 45
Shield 3 & 5: 36
Shield 4: 36
Total Shields: 252

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: C
Total Warp Power: 47
Impulse Power: 8
Aux Power: 4
Total Engine Power: 55
Battery: 6

Transporters: 6
Tractors: 4
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 4
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 4
4x Missle Rack B
2x Phaser G
2x ADD 12
10x Phaser X


What do you all think?
   

[jdmckinney]

Sure, anyone can make more X-ships using a formula (though some would debate what that formula should be, and what exceptions there should be). However, most people don't want more X-ships, but fewer to none. Considering Xes are part of OP (though not required), it would help D2 admins to find a "gold standard" on Xes so they are not over the top vs. late era ships, not so numerous in variety and availability that they cause campaigns to turn into X-only servers, and not unbalanced vs. the entire X-ship field.

X1 implementation via SFB specs may achieve some of these goals, though SFB year first available dates for Xes would generally be too early, voiding much of the late era.

At the moment, the OP players and admins seem to be moving toward FireSoul's OP Plus Refit Shiplist as a standard. The more feedback he has on Xes, the better armed he will be to make balanced decisions about X implementation. Plus, if he does not want to tweak or balance Xes past a point (if at all), then anyone who wants to make their own custom shiplist could use the test results to guide their efforts.

To me, it's very important Xes be part of the OP game, but be reasonable. They should always be an admin or player's option to use or not, but at least if they were better tested and balanced, they would not be guaranteed campaign killers.

[jdmckinney]

Quote:
I suggest starting a light X-ship campaign in late era, 2283. This gives players time to build up prestige before the X-ships become available, so that X-ships are being flown shortly thereafter just as it would happen in a long term campaign. Starting the campaign in late era also gives a better indicator on what effect X-ships have when first unleased into sea of players already well-stocked with late era ships, as you would expect in a long term campaign.
For the shiplist, I recommend using the changes outlined elsewhere, that is, the X1 ships (released 2293), however, I also recommend retaining all the stock X-ships as well (released 2300). The effect of both types of ships need to be observed, in my opinion, in order to make a better evaluation. I would suggest running the campaign at one day = one game year. This gives players a ful ten days to accumulate enough prestige befire the first X-ships become available, and also allows for the creation of an environment that better simulates conditions in a long term campaign. This also gives 7 full days of evaluating X1 ships before the rest of them are available.

Tracey, this sounds like a good starting point. My only concern is that SFCX is tentatively planning a 2-week run. If we expand that to 3 weeks, that gives us 10 days of pre-X and 10 days of X, roughly. Does that sound good to folks?

We would most likely keep the current revised Reclamation supply and economic settings, though perhaps ship prices could come down so people have plenty of opportunities to buy and try different ships, especially Xes against BCHes, DNs, and BBs.

What about shipyard production and delivery time on purchases? If we start with much more empire space than we had in Reclamation, that should help production. Should we also make deliveries immediate?

Any other feedback is welcome.

[jimmi7769]

Quote:
For the shiplist, I recommend using the changes outlined elsewhere, that is, the X1 ships (released 2293), however, I also recommend retaining all the stock X-ships as well (released 2300). The effect of both types of ships need to be observed, in my opinion, in order to make a better evaluation.

I'm sure all of the Klingons will be fighting tooth and nail for one of those Taldren DX's when they come out.

[FPF_TraceyG]

If I could make an observation about the different eras of a campaign, once a better ship becomes available in mid era, no one flys the early era ships anymore. Once late era ships become available, no one fly mid era ships anymore. It follows that once advanced era ships become available, no one will fly late era ships anymore anymore anyway. Is this a show stopper if the server becomes an X-ship fest? Well, perhaps not. I like DH's idea about refitting the late era ships with 1st generation X technology, which by the way, the formula he quotes is straight out of the SFB's X-Ship Supplement. The question then is what effect will this have on tactics and gameplay in a D2 environment? Well, I'm yet to even fly a X-ship myself so I wouldn't have a clue. However, applying the above 1st. gen. X-ship formula to late era ships would certainly make them more competitive.

[jdmckinney]

One of the knocks on X-ships, at least in SFC (and SFB, too, I suppose), is they are lazy ships to fly. They are so powerful (mostly) that they aren't as much fun, especially for those who love the challenge of power management. Does that mean they aren't fun to fly X vs. X? Not necessarily.

Making a very large list of X-conversions from late-era ships seems to me to amount to a total mod along the lines of a TNG mod. There's certainly a place for that, but considering the prevalent attitude toward Xes, it does not really belong as part of a D2 server that progresses through eras. It's been shown in the past that once campaigns reach the advanced era, most of them suffer huge losses in player numbers, leaving the X-fans left to finish off a campaign that no longer has any sort of player balance resembling the field up to that point.

However, limited Xes per SFB make sense in that they are expensive to build and maintain, and many designs would be nearly identical, meaning you don't need as many. Also, they served a purpose in SFB of countering the Andromedans. For anyone wanting to do an Andromedan campaign, it makes sense to have some Xes to fight them with.

In D2 terms, unless you stop non-X production altogether, Xes will still be matched against "normal" ships and vice versa, whether PvP or solo or coop vs. the AI. As such, the Xes scream for some competitive balance.

Anyway, this is my take on the issue at the moment. It is informed by some past experiences and player feedback. Until I see indications Xes are thought of in a different light, it would be irresponsible of me as an admin to ignore players' preferences. I do think there can be room for Xes in some campaigns, but not unless players try them and find they add something without taking away much more.

[jdmckinney]

On the conversion formula, the primary issue is the PhG implementation. FireSoul has moved away from that with not a little support from SFB sources. I tend to agree with him, though I once did not. Also, there are other issues like special heavy weapon rules, batteries, etc. I'm just saying it does take some examination now and then when doing conversions. It's not an automatic process.

[jdmckinney]

Mace, I don't think the X1 ships in FireSoul's list include the Taldren D7X. The SFB-based DX is a different ship, and it remains to be seen how well or poorly it matches up against the other SFB-based X1 ships.

[Mog]

Taldrens X ships are abominations, especially the ones with their "X-tech" The ones that Firesoul has put in his shiplist are a lot more balanced to each other. They will still overpower a non-X late era ship of equivalent size, essentially acting as a ship of higher class. A CLX should be equivalent to a BCH, a CAX (CCX) equivalent to a DN, and should be priced accordingly imho.

Two of the Taldren X heavy weapons could be utilised though. The MIRV rack could be placed on Kzinti ships - I would suggest replace a normal rack with 1 of these per ship. That way, it shouldn't be over the top and would give them a more specialised feel to their drone usage. The other weapon that could be taken into consideration is the Romulan Fast Plasma torp. As SFB has recently introduced the Plasma Sabot (faster plasma), the Fast Plasma torps could replace the G,S,R torps, giving the plasma races faster plasma at the expense of losing the flexibility of downgrading those torps. Given the power curves of the X ships themselves, this may not be a bad idea - perhaps have variants with normal plasma and variants with the new fast plasma.

Whilst it would be tempting to utilise the Heavy Disruptors and Photons also, this would leave the Hydrans at a disadvantyage, so probably best to not go there.

Just some thoughts of mine on possibilities.