Topic: Planning OP+ shiplist 2.1 .. controversial?

[Kortez]

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Fine, Castrin, if that is what you want.  You have just alienated the Mirak.  We are not exactly a small race and we have always tried to be supportive and fly with honor.   We will abstain.

I would like to request dropping anything like that from this thread. Castrin and KOTH are allowed their decision to do and say as they wish, but not in a way that hurts the community.
.. So.. to BOTH sides:
.. play together.. and settle it on the Battlefield. There aren't enough players as is.


-- Luc
 

This is not about hurting the community.  It's about the hurt the Mirak have suffered, throughout the time of SFC2, starting especially after RT3 and moving on since.  Fluf says it well.  However he undersells it.  Because we are coordinated and can flip hexes and take planets and bases, we have had to sacrifice so that we are at a serious disadvantage in many if not most PvP matchups.  That's why I usually abstain.  I can fight with the best of them, but it is an exercise in frustration.  

The one ship we have that is really a great ship is the Z-CCX.  I know it is better than the others, but you know, when you get only ONE ship like this one you cling to it.  If people want to really solve the problem the CCX is not the real answer.  However, we don't want more B racks.  Everyone gets B racks!  How does the drone race stand differentiated from the Klingons and the Feds?  We don't have the energy, we don't have the energy weapons.  B racks won't do it.  That we cannot get the drones which are in SFB only makes it that much more unbalanced.  Ah, I am not happy about this all right now.  
 

I just want to go on record here and say that the general hobbling of the Miraks is one reason that I've never been quick to pursue instituting major "CnC" rules on SFCx campaigns.

I've also noticed that in general these rules are only there to limit races that have a fundamental edge in one way or another. Where I can see reasoning in trying to limit escorts (common sense really) other rules I've found to be rather unfriendly to the Mirak and in some cases the Klingons.

It should be up to the admin to create viable shortages in ships. It should not have to come to the fact that you say "no, you can't play that ship because it's a bombardment / commando / cheese ship". The key IMHO is to balance the availability of ships so that there is always a counter to it. Thus my take on the CCX, in early x1 there is no counter to it, it's a god. It's unfortunet that the CCX is the focus but I could name you other ships that are far worse (or just as bad) but the point is balance is possible, if people are willing to acknowledge that all sides need to be taken into account.

I understand why you feel the way you do Kortez. It doesn't change my take on the CCX issue but I do understand.    

Castrin, I KNOW I overreacted to your statement.  I apologize.  I'll tell you why, it's because of the longstanding hobbling of the Mirak (and to a lesser degree, the Klingons).  It is driving me up the wall, so when our only uber ship is hit, too, it just seems like, great, I will NOT fly a BCH (or substitute something else).  They all suck!

Our second generation x heavy cruisers are ridiculous.  You can fly about 18 and charge.  THAT is an x2-ship?  Man, the XCA is a death trap, if the opponent has any savvy.  I could go through the list.  I KNOW the Z-CCX is god.  I know it is unfair.  I know that when I feel happy I am god, just for a moment, it's wrong, but after all the diminutions it feels like justice to me.  I know that is wrong too, even bad, and I am not seeking to be caustic;  I am just telling you how I and many Mirak feel.

Actually, your point about the CCX in 2300 is VERY WELL TAKEN.  the Z-CCX cannot face a G-XCA, an F-XCA, etc.  So, you know, I was just wrong to not notice that before.  It is just a continuation of the same problem we've had all along.

I gotta find me a good brick wall to run into, because I am unsure how to proceed from here.  Maybe the pain will take my mind off of it.

Peace to you Piece to me ...

 

[CptCastrin]

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   All this arguement over one ship is getting a little ridiculous.  The bottom line is, we want to have our stock CCX available and agree it is to strong for a GenX1 ship.  However we do want it available in 2300 as a GenX2 ship, as it is basically, the only ship we will fly, other than the X-DD and the X-DG.  The other heavy cruisers will not be flown as they are too underpowered to be effective.  I think this is a good compromise and it should be addressed this way.  I in no way want to see any campaign unbalanced, and agree the stock CCX is too much for a 1stGen ship.  But I do think it makes a good 2nd Gen ship, and should be treated as such.  

I agree, maybe a bit ridiculous but it has brought things forward that I think we now have the chance to correct.

Many feel that the Taldren CCX is a god ship and this causes many to flee the camapign when it comes out. This is not right.

On the other hand the Mirak are being hobbled, either by CnC rules or thier own ships. This isn't right either.

We need to figure out what can be done ship wise to make the Mirak competative. Fixing things gamewise is out of the question so what needs to be done to the ships. How will the SFB ships help? And how can issues like the CCX be ballanced so everyone is happy (or at least equally unhappy ).

I don't have the answers but I'm willing to help find them.  

[Green]

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This may, in the end, be much ado about nothing.  At least I hope so.

Original thought still remains.

FireSoul.  We've gotten the rundown on the Z-CCX and some of the ideas on how to tweak it (make a CCX1 and a CCX2) and they sound good.

Castrin.  Good post.  I do think OP+ will run great and will be a lot of fun.  The discussions over a single ship are important (at least to Kzin flyers) but can be worked through.  As long as we keep talking about it.

[FireSoul]

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The one ship we have that is really a great ship is the Z-CCX.  I know it is better than the others, but you know, when you get only ONE ship like this one you cling to it.  If people want to really solve the problem the CCX is not the real answer.  However, we don't want more B racks.  Everyone gets B racks!  How does the drone race stand differentiated from the Klingons and the Feds?  We don't have the energy, we don't have the energy weapons.  B racks won't do it.  That we cannot get the drones which are in SFB only makes it that much more unbalanced.  Ah, I am not happy about this all right now.  
 

I don't understand the thing about the B racks.

[Kortez]

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The one ship we have that is really a great ship is the Z-CCX.  I know it is better than the others, but you know, when you get only ONE ship like this one you cling to it.  If people want to really solve the problem the CCX is not the real answer.  However, we don't want more B racks.  Everyone gets B racks!  How does the drone race stand differentiated from the Klingons and the Feds?  We don't have the energy, we don't have the energy weapons.  B racks won't do it.  That we cannot get the drones which are in SFB only makes it that much more unbalanced.  Ah, I am not happy about this all right now.  
 

I don't understand the thing about the B racks.  

The B rack is ok, but it's nothing special.  If THE Drone Race is to be helped the B rack really doesn't do much.  It's better than an A rack, but they shouldn't be on late era ships and on anyway.  The C rack is good, but it's really limited in how many drones it can carry.  The E racks, however are the size of a B rack with the firing capabilities of a C rack.  Having E racks on later era Mirak ships helps somewhat.  It doesn't answer the underpowering of the ships or the real nature of the lack of PvP competitiveness, but it helps incrementally.

E is better than B.
 

[jdmckinney]

I would like to hear the player opinions on FS's X1 still. Heck, maybe it's time for a mini-campaign JUST using Xes and late era ships to see where the balance issues are. Since it would be more of a balancing testbed, it could be up while bigger, more in-depth campaigns (like SG3) are going on. This might help FS find any issues with Xes without relying totally on GSA tests.

I think I'll post a D2 forum poll about that. Look for it and vote.

Now, about the rest of the Mirak/Kzinti fleet: I used to love flying the CM+ and CCH against the Hydrans on RT2.5 -- the last ROOK-run campaign. I remember monumental battles with Dizzy in his Hydran skin. I would buy a couple cheap escort frigates (read: attrition units) to help against the fighters, and it was all a blast. I was not very good at PvP against Lyrans in those days, but RT2.5 had the kitties as friends. Why do players now spit on the CM+ and CCH? What am I missing?

About the D5XD (that's the right designation now that I have it in front of me) and the Kzinti ship it copied, Captain's Log 16 mentions a CMDX:

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(R3.206) Klingon D5XD: The Klingons built the first of these powerful scout/drone ships for independent bombardment missions (copying the Kzinti CMDX), but ended up using the handful that were built as fleet scouts in direct combat (as the Kzintis did), where they were powerful anti-drone platforms ... Year in Service 183 ... explosion strength 17 ... etc.

The D5XD has 8 drone racks: 4 GX and 4 BX. It has 4 sensors. It hs 4 Ph1 (2 FX, 1 LLR, 1 RRR) -- these would be PhX in OP. It has cargo instead of APR. And so on. One might guess the CMDX it copied also had sensors and 8 drone racks. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to have a CMDX added based on the more readily available CMX using much the same design differences the D5XD exhibits from the D5X.

There's also a Federation DGX in that CL issue, which has 4 GX drones, 2 photons, and 6 Ph1 (PhX 3xFH, 3xRS, 3xLS).

As for other Kzinti SFB ships, the recent Module J2 has some more cruiser-sized carriers for Kzinti (along with similar ships for the other empires): the CVD interdiction carrier, which has no disruptors, 2 B and 2 C drones, 4 Ph1, 8 Ph3 and 24 fighters (16 in SFC); the CVP patrol carrier, with the 4 drones, just 4 Ph1, and 18 fighters (12 in SFC); the DDE destroyer escort (an oddly absent ship until now); and the CLE light escort cruiser (another previously missing ship).

CL 24 has the FKE escort frigate (improving the choice over the lame FFE) and the EBC/ABC escort battlecruiser (which was never actually produced because of the demand for BC hulls for other uses).

I'm pretty sure FS has already added the BF and HDW, which are both decent ships. Similarly there are the DNL, DND, and BBV.

Do any of these seem appealing? Is there a design that's missing? Will the hardpoint splits help specific ships (medium cruisers)?

[CptCastrin]

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Castrin, I KNOW I overreacted to your statement.  I apologize.  I'll tell you why, it's because of the longstanding hobbling of the Mirak (and to a lesser degree, the Klingons).  It is driving me up the wall, so when our only uber ship is hit, too, it just seems like, great, I will NOT fly a BCH (or substitute something else).  They all suck!

Our second generation x heavy cruisers are ridiculous.  You can fly about 18 and charge.  THAT is an x2-ship?  Man, the XCA is a death trap, if the opponent has any savvy.  I could go through the list.  I KNOW the Z-CCX is god.  I know it is unfair.  I know that when I feel happy I am god, just for a moment, it's wrong, but after all the diminutions it feels like justice to me.  I know that is wrong too, even bad, and I am not seeking to be caustic;  I am just telling you how I and many Mirak feel.

Actually, your point about the CCX in 2300 is VERY WELL TAKEN.  the Z-CCX cannot face a G-XCA, an F-XCA, etc.  So, you know, I was just wrong to not notice that before.  It is just a continuation of the same problem we've had all along.

I gotta find me a good brick wall to run into, because I am unsure how to proceed from here.  Maybe the pain will take my mind off of it.

Peace to you Piece to me ...  

No problem Kortez, totally understandable.

I'm not sure what can be done. Maybe a "true" SFB shiplist (SFCx was working on one but we haven't worked on it since the OP+ one was so popular) where all the Taldren created ships are tossed? Or just a closer look at what we have (Fluf says he's helping Firesoul with some isues) currently. Not sure. There are so many possibilities and so many ships.

I think the important issue here is not so much just the CCX but how do we reverse the "we only fly 10 ships" situation. That alone will not only help the Mirak but the other races as well as they will have more people to face in D2. But in all things the spirit of overall ballance must be maintained.
 

[jdmckinney]

Minor correction: though we did stop working on the SFB-based shiplist we intended (and still intend) to use for ToW, I have picked it up again and have been making progress over the past couple months. It's slow work and I do it generally only when I stay overnight on business trips (which is weekly now). However, aside from a few ships and some differences in approach, it is not a whole lot different from the OP+ list as far as ship choices, since we are both using SFB as source material.

[FireSoul]

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I would like to hear the player opinions on FS's X1 still. Heck, maybe it's time for a mini-campaign JUST using Xes and late era ships to see where the balance issues are. Since it would be more of a balancing testbed, it could be up while bigger, more in-depth campaigns (like SG3) are going on. This might help FS find any issues with Xes without relying totally on GSA tests.

I think I'll post a D2 forum poll about that. Look for it and vote.

Now, about the rest of the Mirak/Kzinti fleet: I used to love flying the CM+ and CCH against the Hydrans on RT2.5 -- the last ROOK-run campaign. I remember monumental battles with Dizzy in his Hydran skin. I would buy a couple cheap escort frigates (read: attrition units) to help against the fighters, and it was all a blast. I was not very good at PvP against Lyrans in those days, but RT2.5 had the kitties as friends. Why do players now spit on the CM+ and CCH? What am I missing?

About the D5XD (that's the right designation now that I have it in front of me) and the Kzinti ship it copied, Captain's Log 16 mentions a CMDX:

Quote:

(R3.206) Klingon D5XD: The Klingons built the first of these powerful scout/drone ships for independent bombardment missions (copying the Kzinti CMDX), but ended up using the handful that were built as fleet scouts in direct combat (as the Kzintis did), where they were powerful anti-drone platforms ... Year in Service 183 ... explosion strength 17 ... etc.

The D5XD has 8 drone racks: 4 GX and 4 BX. It has 4 sensors. It hs 4 Ph1 (2 FX, 1 LLR, 1 RRR) -- these would be PhX in OP. It has cargo instead of APR. And so on. One might guess the CMDX it copied also had sensors and 8 drone racks. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to have a CMDX added based on the more readily available CMX using much the same design differences the D5XD exhibits from the D5X.

There's also a Federation DGX in that CL issue, which has 4 GX drones, 2 photons, and 6 Ph1 (PhX 3xFH, 3xRS, 3xLS).

As for other Kzinti SFB ships, the recent Module J2 has some more cruiser-sized carriers for Kzinti (along with similar ships for the other empires): the CVD interdiction carrier, which has no disruptors, 2 B and 2 C drones, 4 Ph1, 8 Ph3 and 24 fighters (16 in SFC); the CVP patrol carrier, with the 4 drones, just 4 Ph1, and 18 fighters (12 in SFC); the DDE destroyer escort (an oddly absent ship until now); and the CLE light escort cruiser (another previously missing ship).

CL 24 has the FKE escort frigate (improving the choice over the lame FFE) and the EBC/ABC escort battlecruiser (which was never actually produced because of the demand for BC hulls for other uses).

I'm pretty sure FS has already added the BF and HDW, which are both decent ships. Similarly there are the DNL, DND, and BBV.

Do any of these seem appealing? Is there a design that's missing? Will the hardpoint splits help specific ships (medium cruisers)?  

I don't own J2.
.. and I resist it a bit.. what about balance to the PF-using races in SFC? .. what do they get in addition?
-- Luc

[jdmckinney]

I'm just saying there are a few other SFB Kzinti ships out there. I agree the fighter races have it better than the PF ones. Even without adding J2 ships, that will be the case. The best fix I can think of is to try some of the mods for having PFs and fighters for all races, which is definitely not a general-use shiplist issue.

[Fluf]

What Kortez is trying to say here, is that the E rack which we tested in AOTK was originally a SFB rack designed for fast firing vs fighters and PFs.  The Mirak/Kzin are the drone races.  However, the Klingon D5D and the Federation NCD+ can outfly any Mirak equalivant drone cruiser such as the MDC+ any day of the week.  The Feds and Klingons are both drone races too.  The only distinct Mirak trait vs the other drone races is, that we are underpowered, have larger turning rates, and fewer good arcs and energy weapons.  The Mirak must count on overwhelming their enemy with drones in order to succeed.   Against the AI, this is usually fairly easy.  Vs a live human player, it is almost impossible.  The drone is the most easily defensable weapon in the game.  With a limit of 12 drone control, and the addition of new SFB ships such as the LDR and such, it is even harder to hit a ship with a drone.  In player vs player, the Kzin is forced to try to make the other player make a mistake, and get a lucky shot in, or run out of drones, and either die or run in defeat.  Just ask Moggy or Dogmatix when the last time I hit them with a drone was!  Hence the move to carriers and being able to overwhelm your opponent with drones with the fighters.  Ah but alas, we all now what SFC and all the fighter bugs have done.  And with the cost of replacing fighters and fast drones in late, they become cost prohibitive very quickly.


What do the Mirak want?

More drones?   Hell no.  We dont want another drone bombardment cruiser like the MDCX.

We want a medium command cruiser and a heavy command cruiser that is equal to its Federation, Klingon and other race counterparts which is not dependant on drones, or give us our drones and our Mirvs so we can overwhelm the opponent and have a chance in PvP.

Recommendations to Firesoull

Check all Mirak ships with more than 2 Dizzies on a hardpoint, such as the CM CM+, MCC, MCV, MTT-CVA, CVA and split the dizzies and also take a look at expanding their arcs.  Also take a look at the SCS and tell me why a Mirak would purchase that ship.  Make it the Space Control ship it should be.  It should be one of the most feared ships in the game along with the Fed SCS.

Look at how to make the MCC, CCH and BCH more competive ships vs other races counterparts.  

[Green]

As a mirak who flys, in order, the DD, MCC, CC (yes, I actually use it), NCA, CCH, and BCH I agree with Flufster.  I fly the mirak non-droners for the most part because I don't like fighters ... well, okay, because I can't use them right to save my life (but am trying to learn ... still).  The ships have something to desire (i.e. power).  But the DoE tweak to the MCC (split the dizzies) made a big difference.  At least my fellow kzin stopped laughing at me for flying them.

[FireSoul]

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I'm just saying there are a few other SFB Kzinti ships out there. I agree the fighter races have it better than the PF ones. Even without adding J2 ships, that will be the case. The best fix I can think of is to try some of the mods for having PFs and fighters for all races, which is definitely not a general-use shiplist issue.  

Bingo. That's why there are no J2 ships yet.. other than the fact I didn't buy the module.
-- Luc

[FireSoul]

Idea. Not for this version of shiplist. Needs to be discussed:

.. would raising the drone control of scout-channel equipped ships by 6, at a small BPV cost, be good?


-- Luc

[Fluf]

Quote:
Idea. Not for this version of shiplist. Needs to be discussed:

.. would raising the drone control of scout-channel equipped ships by 6, at a small BPV cost, be good?


-- Luc  

Possibly.  As it stands now, the Mirak have only 2 ships in early era with 12 drone control.  The DF and the CC until the MDC comes out in 2270.  And I still dont understand why the Mirak Z-CD is a drone bombardment ship with only 6 drone control, and yet the Klingons get the D6D and the D6DB with 12 drone control.   Just doesnt seem right that the "Drone Race" is out done in early era by the Klingons.  Guess its just all them 30 year old ships the Kzin used for killing each other prior to 2263 were left over hehe.  Even the CD+ refit still only has 6 drone control.  Just another useless ship in the shipyard.

Oh and Nomad, I too used to love the CCH.  It was one of my favorite ships to fly in SL.  But it is sadly outclassed in most D2 enviorments.  IMHO, the CCH and BCH only need 2 more points of power, and they might be competive.  We tried this in a recent AOTK shiplist, making the BCH+ and the ship was almost flyable.

[IndyShark]

Firesoul, I thought only scouts had this feature and I don't know any scouts that need the extra drone control.

Can you give an example where this would be of help?

 

[FireSoul]

Some ships are designated scouts.. but.. other non-scouts ships have been known to have sensor channels.
ie:
F-GSC has 4. It's a survey vessel.
Most PFTs have sensor channels.
Some Drone Bombardment ships have sensor channels...
etc.

.. a concrete example..
The Z-CD has a normal drone control of 6. It does have, however, 2 sensor channels.

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(G24.24) Controlling Seeking Weapons: Scouts can use one of their sensors to control up to 6 seeking weapons, in addition to (and irrespective of) whatever weapons the scout can normally control (F3.2). No more than 1 sensor channel per scout can be used for this purpose in a given turn. (.... snip)

Beginning of rule G24.0:

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Within these rules, any unit that has special sensor boxes (and thereby scout function channels) is considered to be a "scout", although for the purpose of (G21.01) only shpis designated as scouts are considered scouts. Note that (G21.0) does not apply to PF or shuttle crews (K1.326).

G21.0 is about crew quality.. so .. that part is not applicable here.



.. cleared up?
-- Luc

[Holocat]

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A ship with 2, or 4 Mechlinks would have 2 PFs, following Taldren's style of doing things. A ship with 6 Mechlinks would have 4 PFs. Sometimes that should would even be called a "Casual PFT" because it just happened to become that way.
All Lyran "T" refits are as such.

.. as for balancing casual carriers with normal fighters..
.. Why the heck should the Mobile Carriers with 6 fighters be dropped down to 4 while Random J Casual Carrier would keep its 6? The balance is I want to apply the 2/3rds rule everywhere. No exceptions.  .. That's why I want to talk about it first, because this could very well turn out that if too many people say "No!" I won't do it.

Fortunately, a lot of people have said instead "It's just 1 or 2 fighters? .. BPV adjustments? .. It's fair. Unfortunate for those who use those ships but fair."

-- Luc  

Moble carriers that had six now with four?  I'm so confused.

They'll be BVP adjustments?  It's not the hit i'm worried about, it's the difference between a carrier-that-isn't-a-carrier, a casual carrier, and whatever-else-have-you carriers being too small to tatically see;  Kinda makes some ship types redundant.  Merge the HDW's and HDWC's then? *shrug*

And... uh... what's an HPT?

Oh, and... uh... why the sudden explosion concerning the Z-CCX?  Funny, I thought no one liked *any* of the X-Ships here...

That would be three fighters in one squadron, rather than two and one fighter squadrons, right?

I didn't even know the Mirak were nerfed.  

I'm still not clear on why the HDWE costs more than the HDW2;  Do cargo boxes really cost that much?

Like I said, i'm no authority on how fighters should be balanced, I just think that the minimum difference in a ship carrying fighters needs to be no less than 2 for it to perform differently than another ship with a different number of fighters.  Give a HDW no fighters and three for an HDWC? *shrug*  I just want the HDW, their casual carriers, their mobile carriers, etc. to, well, be *different*.



Balance (bal*ance) n.
 
1. A weighing device, especially one consisting of a rigid beam horizontally suspended by a low-friction support at its center, with identical weighing pans hung at either end, one of which holds an unknown weight while the effective weight in the other is increased by known amounts until the beam is level and motionless,
2. A state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces,
3. The power or means to decide,
4. The bloody and vicious trench warfare associated with online game modifications.

Holocat.
 

[jdmckinney]

LOL, love that last line.

We got pretty far off-topic with some of the balance discussions, but I do think we've learned some things here.

[Cleaven]

Regarding X-ships, do as you will, since it has been adequately demonstrated that the appearance of the MIRV at it's original OP time ends servers. Hence FS should seek to ensure that his list meets GSA style requirements while having playable ships for all empires. Then let server admins choose when they want their servers to end with their own individual shiplist adjustments. What I would like to see is, after a little bit of tweaking, that OP+ becomes the default (stock) list that all admins will start with (but not have to stick to). GSA requirements will mean that all the current X2-ships will have to stay in essentally as they are though, for those great 400 advanced games.

To achieve an X-ship balanced server which includes Taldren X-ships as they are now is a nightmare I would wish on no one because you may get applause for trying but very little satisfaction for the majority. Still, it will be an excuse to get online to play it so that it can be criticised.


As for Kzinti ship balance (and Rom for that matter) I don't like it when people say they have to have more power (or PD) to be able to play the game, when what they mean is that need more of factor x to survive a battle with empire y from the other side of the Alpha Quadrant. It is not simply a case of Kzinti were not meant to fight plasma (which is what the extra power is needed for) but that most of the empires were meant to fight certain other empires in certain timeframes. Add this to the fact that while there is balance built into GSA matches and SFB scenarios, nothing is built into D2, except bugs. I also think the ISC have more to complain about regarding fleet restrictions, but then I also think the ISC prior to late era is an abomination anyway.

Some Kzinti problems could be addressed by a few rules though (or actually lack of). Fleet limits for example, if Kzin need fleets of small ships to compete in PvP, then allow it for Kzinti players, but don't design a server where fleets of drone ships run amok, taking territory at a parsec a minute. And make the small ships expensive enough so that when the solo enemy CC knocks out one of the little droners then it is worthwhile, and not just one more mission to replace it. I don't see a problem with empire specific rules as long as a player only needs to know about half a page (to print out and keep handy if they need to).

Anyway the latter two paragraphs are about server design, which should come after this shiplist project which is the issue at hand. Once you have the default shiplist, design the server then go and make mods to the shiplist if you want to, so as to achieve the objective of the server.