Topic: Planning OP+ shiplist 2.1 .. controversial?

[FireSoul]

Idea. Not for this version of shiplist. Needs to be discussed:

.. would raising the drone control of scout-channel equipped ships by 6, at a small BPV cost, be good?


-- Luc

[Fluf]

Quote:
Idea. Not for this version of shiplist. Needs to be discussed:

.. would raising the drone control of scout-channel equipped ships by 6, at a small BPV cost, be good?


-- Luc  

Possibly.  As it stands now, the Mirak have only 2 ships in early era with 12 drone control.  The DF and the CC until the MDC comes out in 2270.  And I still dont understand why the Mirak Z-CD is a drone bombardment ship with only 6 drone control, and yet the Klingons get the D6D and the D6DB with 12 drone control.   Just doesnt seem right that the "Drone Race" is out done in early era by the Klingons.  Guess its just all them 30 year old ships the Kzin used for killing each other prior to 2263 were left over hehe.  Even the CD+ refit still only has 6 drone control.  Just another useless ship in the shipyard.

Oh and Nomad, I too used to love the CCH.  It was one of my favorite ships to fly in SL.  But it is sadly outclassed in most D2 enviorments.  IMHO, the CCH and BCH only need 2 more points of power, and they might be competive.  We tried this in a recent AOTK shiplist, making the BCH+ and the ship was almost flyable.

[IndyShark]

Firesoul, I thought only scouts had this feature and I don't know any scouts that need the extra drone control.

Can you give an example where this would be of help?

 

[FireSoul]

Some ships are designated scouts.. but.. other non-scouts ships have been known to have sensor channels.
ie:
F-GSC has 4. It's a survey vessel.
Most PFTs have sensor channels.
Some Drone Bombardment ships have sensor channels...
etc.

.. a concrete example..
The Z-CD has a normal drone control of 6. It does have, however, 2 sensor channels.

Quote:

(G24.24) Controlling Seeking Weapons: Scouts can use one of their sensors to control up to 6 seeking weapons, in addition to (and irrespective of) whatever weapons the scout can normally control (F3.2). No more than 1 sensor channel per scout can be used for this purpose in a given turn. (.... snip)

Beginning of rule G24.0:

Quote:

Within these rules, any unit that has special sensor boxes (and thereby scout function channels) is considered to be a "scout", although for the purpose of (G21.01) only shpis designated as scouts are considered scouts. Note that (G21.0) does not apply to PF or shuttle crews (K1.326).

G21.0 is about crew quality.. so .. that part is not applicable here.



.. cleared up?
-- Luc

[Holocat]

Quote:

A ship with 2, or 4 Mechlinks would have 2 PFs, following Taldren's style of doing things. A ship with 6 Mechlinks would have 4 PFs. Sometimes that should would even be called a "Casual PFT" because it just happened to become that way.
All Lyran "T" refits are as such.

.. as for balancing casual carriers with normal fighters..
.. Why the heck should the Mobile Carriers with 6 fighters be dropped down to 4 while Random J Casual Carrier would keep its 6? The balance is I want to apply the 2/3rds rule everywhere. No exceptions.  .. That's why I want to talk about it first, because this could very well turn out that if too many people say "No!" I won't do it.

Fortunately, a lot of people have said instead "It's just 1 or 2 fighters? .. BPV adjustments? .. It's fair. Unfortunate for those who use those ships but fair."

-- Luc  

Moble carriers that had six now with four?  I'm so confused.

They'll be BVP adjustments?  It's not the hit i'm worried about, it's the difference between a carrier-that-isn't-a-carrier, a casual carrier, and whatever-else-have-you carriers being too small to tatically see;  Kinda makes some ship types redundant.  Merge the HDW's and HDWC's then? *shrug*

And... uh... what's an HPT?

Oh, and... uh... why the sudden explosion concerning the Z-CCX?  Funny, I thought no one liked *any* of the X-Ships here...

That would be three fighters in one squadron, rather than two and one fighter squadrons, right?

I didn't even know the Mirak were nerfed.  

I'm still not clear on why the HDWE costs more than the HDW2;  Do cargo boxes really cost that much?

Like I said, i'm no authority on how fighters should be balanced, I just think that the minimum difference in a ship carrying fighters needs to be no less than 2 for it to perform differently than another ship with a different number of fighters.  Give a HDW no fighters and three for an HDWC? *shrug*  I just want the HDW, their casual carriers, their mobile carriers, etc. to, well, be *different*.



Balance (bal*ance) n.
 
1. A weighing device, especially one consisting of a rigid beam horizontally suspended by a low-friction support at its center, with identical weighing pans hung at either end, one of which holds an unknown weight while the effective weight in the other is increased by known amounts until the beam is level and motionless,
2. A state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces,
3. The power or means to decide,
4. The bloody and vicious trench warfare associated with online game modifications.

Holocat.
 

[jdmckinney]

LOL, love that last line.

We got pretty far off-topic with some of the balance discussions, but I do think we've learned some things here.

[Cleaven]

Regarding X-ships, do as you will, since it has been adequately demonstrated that the appearance of the MIRV at it's original OP time ends servers. Hence FS should seek to ensure that his list meets GSA style requirements while having playable ships for all empires. Then let server admins choose when they want their servers to end with their own individual shiplist adjustments. What I would like to see is, after a little bit of tweaking, that OP+ becomes the default (stock) list that all admins will start with (but not have to stick to). GSA requirements will mean that all the current X2-ships will have to stay in essentally as they are though, for those great 400 advanced games.

To achieve an X-ship balanced server which includes Taldren X-ships as they are now is a nightmare I would wish on no one because you may get applause for trying but very little satisfaction for the majority. Still, it will be an excuse to get online to play it so that it can be criticised.


As for Kzinti ship balance (and Rom for that matter) I don't like it when people say they have to have more power (or PD) to be able to play the game, when what they mean is that need more of factor x to survive a battle with empire y from the other side of the Alpha Quadrant. It is not simply a case of Kzinti were not meant to fight plasma (which is what the extra power is needed for) but that most of the empires were meant to fight certain other empires in certain timeframes. Add this to the fact that while there is balance built into GSA matches and SFB scenarios, nothing is built into D2, except bugs. I also think the ISC have more to complain about regarding fleet restrictions, but then I also think the ISC prior to late era is an abomination anyway.

Some Kzinti problems could be addressed by a few rules though (or actually lack of). Fleet limits for example, if Kzin need fleets of small ships to compete in PvP, then allow it for Kzinti players, but don't design a server where fleets of drone ships run amok, taking territory at a parsec a minute. And make the small ships expensive enough so that when the solo enemy CC knocks out one of the little droners then it is worthwhile, and not just one more mission to replace it. I don't see a problem with empire specific rules as long as a player only needs to know about half a page (to print out and keep handy if they need to).

Anyway the latter two paragraphs are about server design, which should come after this shiplist project which is the issue at hand. Once you have the default shiplist, design the server then go and make mods to the shiplist if you want to, so as to achieve the objective of the server.


     

[FireSoul]

Quote:

Moble carriers that had six now with four?  I'm so confused.

If you want... I will publish the proposed changes generated by my script. Sec.
Please note, before reading this, that the number of deckcrews will have to be checked.

 http://pet.dhs.org/~firesoul/sfc2/shiplist/fighters_balance_adjustment.txt

Quote:

They'll be BVP adjustments?  It's not the hit i'm worried about, it's the difference between a carrier-that-isn't-a-carrier, a casual carrier, and whatever-else-have-you carriers being too small to tatically see;  Kinda makes some ship types redundant.  Merge the HDW's and HDWC's then? *shrug*

Actually.. I think the HDWs and HDWCs are already correct.

Quote:

And... uh... what's an HPT?

HPT? Where?

Quote:

Oh, and... uh... why the sudden explosion concerning the Z-CCX?  Funny, I thought no one liked *any* of the X-Ships here...
That would be three fighters in one squadron, rather than two and one fighter squadrons, right?
I didn't even know the Mirak were nerfed.  
I'm still not clear on why the HDWE costs more than the HDW2;  Do cargo boxes really cost that much?

I don't know.
I'll decide the fighter squadrons as I move along.
I didn't know either.
The HDWE is properly configured, on the inside, to be able to call it an Escort. It has the "E" special role. This might come in handy in future scripting. It is a valid variant.



Like I said, i'm no authority on how fighters should be balanced, I just think that the minimum difference in a ship carrying fighters needs to be no less than 2 for it to perform differently than another ship with a different number of fighters.  Give a HDW no fighters and three for an HDWC? *shrug*  I just want the HDW, their casual carriers, their mobile carriers, etc. to, well, be *different*. The APRs were changed to Shuttlebays, btw.

Quote:

Balance (bal*ance) n.
 
1. A weighing device, especially one consisting of a rigid beam horizontally suspended by a low-friction support at its center, with identical weighing pans hung at either end, one of which holds an unknown weight while the effective weight in the other is increased by known amounts until the beam is level and motionless,
2. A state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces,
3. The power or means to decide,
4. The bloody and vicious trench warfare associated with online game modifications.
 

Is it always like that?
-- Luc

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:

K-F5 and K-E4 should have A-Rack not F-Rack.
 

The F5 and E4 can fire one drone every other turn until they get the B refit. The F rack is appropriate.  

[FireSoul]

Quote:

Quote:

K-F5 and K-E4 should have A-Rack not F-Rack.
 

The F5 and E4 can fire one drone every other turn until they get the B refit. The F rack is appropriate.  

.. can you guide me to the rule?

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
http://www.mninter.net/~phdship/klndwc.gif

Holy cow, that sucker's a bit stronger than Taldren's DWC.

+2 Center Warp
+1 Ph1 on each wing
Ph1 -> Ph2 on waist
+1 B-rack
all for 9 less BPV! (163 vs 154)  

And thus clearly should be added immediately.  As should the K-DWV...but I'd add 2xDroB and at least an AMD12 (bumping up the BPV accordingly)    BTW, this is meant half tongue-in-cheek, and half "I really wouldn't mind it much."


Taldren's D5W and DWC really aren't that much fun to fly for us Klingons.  The power curve sucks due to the increased move cost and phaser charging requirements.  The marginal addtion of firepower (a couple of Ph1s in the case of the DWC, and the added Ph2s) just isn't worth having to slow down so much to charge these weapons.  We'll almost without fail opt for a D5L.  Basically, there isn't much the D5W/DWC can do that a D5L can't, so there's no reason to fly them.


 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
can you help me find the part that mentions 2272-2273 for the K refit in the SFB material?

..as for the Casual Carriers..... that change *IS* for them. I would not leave them alone. They need fixing. That's the issue, here... a balance overhaul for carriers, casual or not.

-- Luc

EDIT: All master ship charts show Y175..

No..because my SFB material is stuffed away in offsite storage.  Going by Taldren's FYAs, that's when the K-refits come out.  That was my actual point of reference.

[TarMinyatur]

Hmm, I'm looking for it now...and can't find it.

The F5 and E4 had Jump Racks installed right? As I look at the stats for Jump Racks they are the same as A-racks in rate of fire. I don't know why I thought that the F5 and E4 had 1 drone/2 turn firing restrictions. Wasn't there a description in R3 about early Klink drone firing rates? I can't find my Doomsday Basic rulebook and the F5/E4 SSDs.

Here's some ancient and probably useless info:
Commanders FD4.21: Klink ships can fire 1/2 of their drone racks (round up) per turn. That would give the F5/E4 essentially A-racks.

[Kortez]

Quote:

Quote:
can you help me find the part that mentions 2272-2273 for the K refit in the SFB material?

..as for the Casual Carriers..... that change *IS* for them. I would not leave them alone. They need fixing. That's the issue, here... a balance overhaul for carriers, casual or not.

-- Luc

EDIT: All master ship charts show Y175..

No..because my SFB material is stuffed away in offsite storage.  Going by Taldren's FYAs, that's when the K-refits come out.  That was my actual point of reference.  

I had all the SSDs as of 4/2002, but my wife threw EVERYTHING away, by accident.  I could cry.  Anyone know of a good place to order from to regain my status?
 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:

Quote:
[. .. I would however not follow that rule for PFs. It's going to be 2 PFs for a non PFT ship, and 4 for a Full PFT ship. It still kinda approximate to 2/3rds of SFb, but differently interpreted.


I hope this helps.
-- Luc  

Just keep in mind that some ships are considered Full PFT's but in Taldrens list they have only 2 PF's attached to them and should have a full load of 4.  Namely a few Lyrans, Lion DN, Wildcat BC, Hellcat BCH, etc.  These are listed in the SFB R section as being full PF tenders and not casual carriers(due to the repair boxes I guess)

On the 1st Gen X-Ships,  you kept the Mirak 1X did you keep all of the other wonder boats like the F-CCX and the K-DX or did you replace them with your subpar versions????


I'm kidding!!!   Everyone knows who had the worst 1X ships in the game.  

Yeah...the pirates.  As a Syndicate Pirate on RT3, I quit playing when the advanced era hit.  We couldn't compete really well in PvP before advanced era.  When the advanced era hit, it was from really bad to laughable.  Pirate X-ships were a joke.  You couldn't even go speed 31 in them charging weapons or with them charged.


As far as the empire races go, yeah...I know what you're getting at...heheh...though I have defeated F-CCXs fairly often in the D7X, it's an uphill fight and darned near impossible if certain things occur.


 

[jdmckinney]

In my experience, the module ship descriptions and/or SSDs themselves in Captain's Edition will specifically state rate of fire on the Klingon drone racks if they are limited in any way. While I do have some of the Klingon source material with me this week, it's in the luggage out in the car. Who knew I would need it at work?

[jdmckinney]

Kortez, that's a HUGE chunk of change you're talking about. I'd be doing much worse than crying. Think rubber room ...

I've bought almost all of my SFB stockpile in the past year (have some old Commander's Edition books and boxes stashed away). Aside from one trip to a local shop that was woefully understocked, I got it all from ADB's site (http://www.starfleetgames.com/). You can order directly from them by check or credit card, and I've never had a problem with getting everything in a timely manner. You have to pay for the shipping, but if you know what you want and don't need to flip through the books, it's definitely the easiest way to go. The only thing I wish they had was the old Module G1 Master Annex File in a new, revised edition including all the latest ships in the master ship chart. That I had to find in the store.

Good luck.

[jdmckinney]

Hmmm ...

After re-reading the above, I noticed two things. First, I meant I found the old G1 module in a store, not that a newer one was available.

Second, I just gave away the location of about 1/4 of my SFB stash to someone who is looking to rebuild their collection, not to mention the rest of the yahoos on this forum.

Thankfully I should be in the hotel with my modules safely in hand before anyone can track down what city and office building I'm in.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
I agree Nomad, the G Rack conversion does hurt.  Hence my suggestion for the E rack.  We used the E rack on AOTK and it seems it would be a natural addition to a 1stGen X ship.  It would seem that the Kzin would have increased loadouts and the ability to fire faster as new technology.   I would hope that this would be considered as a alternative.  The E rack has a firing rate of a C Rack, but carry's 10 more drones per rack, thus allowing us to use it in fire support against PF's and fighters.

And what Kortez is talking about is the Kzin feeling that we have had ever since the introduction of this game.  Every patch has screwed us in some way.  Even the last patch for EAW and the G Rack debate gave us more BPV on some of our ships.  Our BCH is just useless now, and it was always one of the worst BCH's in the game.  Our CCH can barely come even with a F-CLC.  Hence, most Mirak cannot compete in PvP 1 on 1 vs comparable ships and pilots.  After all the drone debates and cheese debates that have gone on for years, we are a little gunshy in that respect.  

Then our best ship that we have ever had, gets taken out of the shiplist and gutted, albeit it should be for balance.  You can see where we might get a little angry at this.

If anything, the Kzin would like to become less dependant on drones, not more.  We would rather have more power and energy weapons, so that we could stay in a fight on and even basis.  Ah, but then we become to Klingon like.    Which they dont like.

What the Kzin want is a ship capable of standing up to a D5, C7 or CLC or BCF in a 1 on 1 fight, without having to bring out the cheese.

As it stands now the Mirak only fly 10 ships no matter what list you make.

DF DD and CC in early
MDC,MDC+, MCC and CVA in mid
CVA through late

Thats it. And we only fly the MCC if its in a custom shiplist with the Dizzy points split.  We basically have no medium or heavy command cruiser that can compete on and equal basis.  Hence the backlash on the CCX.

 

I always though the Z-DWL was a pretty nice ship, eh?

I agree that dizzy hard points on several Mirak ships need to be split.  In terms of playability and power problems, the massed hardpoints seem to be a major problem.

I agree E-racks make sense as a 1st generation x weapon mount.  As you know, I wholly diagree with seeing them mounted on ships prior to that.  To me, it's not needed and just ain't right.  


When it comes to the viabilty of ships in today's dyna, I'm sure I can come up with a similarly small list of Klingon ships that are worthwhile.  I mean..there's only seven or eight that I consider worth flying and most of those a late-middle to late era boats.  We do have a larger shiplist to choose from, though...there's no doubt about it.


We discussed the ability to "compete" in the CL/NCA category when we hashed out the AOTK shiplist.  i'm not sure we want to go through that again, but we can if anyone wishes.  Did any of you guys even fly those new competitive ships?  I never saw anyone in them....think the one's I'm speaking of are the MCC and the NCC..both of which, at least initially, had everything the better D5s have, came out earlier and sport more drone racks.  I think we kiboshed the expanded dizzy arcs and left the 4 drones racks intact...but it's hard for me to remember for sure...that was a while ago, I guess...heheh.


 

[FireSoul]

Quote:
Hmmm ...

After re-reading the above, I noticed two things. First, I meant I found the old G1 module in a store, not that a newer one was available.

Second, I just gave away the location of about 1/4 of my SFB stash to someone who is looking to rebuild their collection, not to mention the rest of the yahoos on this forum.

Thankfully I should be in the hotel with my modules safely in hand before anyone can track down what city and office building I'm in.  

Next time you're in Ottawa, bring me a gift: J2 would be nice.