Topic: Planning OP+ shiplist 2.1 .. controversial?

[jdmckinney]

Fluf, my above post was written before I saw your latest one. I have a question: is one of the key problems you see with the Xes that the X2 Mirak/Kzinti CAs suffer from being underpowered? So, the CCX is then the best heavy cruiser counter to, say, a K-XCA? If so, then I think the question of release date has been solved by FS putting it in at 2300 with the X2s. Does this solve the problem from your (and other players') standpoint? Are the Z-Xes still too weak as a group?

I'm especially interested in getting play-test feedback on the X1s. Frankly, I doubt too many campaigns will ever reach X2, so the X1 ship balance is much more of a concern to me personally.

[FireSoul]

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By the way, if I'm reading FS right on the Xes, he does not retain the original Taldren CCXes for any race. Why should he break his rules for one race, regardless of population? If the Z-CCX is in as an alternate, then probably the other original Taldren CCXes should be there, as well.  

Yeah.. maybe..
.. but some such Xes' only difference were phGs. I need opinions.

[Fluf]

I agree Nomad, the G Rack conversion does hurt.  Hence my suggestion for the E rack.  We used the E rack on AOTK and it seems it would be a natural addition to a 1stGen X ship.  It would seem that the Kzin would have increased loadouts and the ability to fire faster as new technology.   I would hope that this would be considered as a alternative.  The E rack has a firing rate of a C Rack, but carry's 10 more drones per rack, thus allowing us to use it in fire support against PF's and fighters.

And what Kortez is talking about is the Kzin feeling that we have had ever since the introduction of this game.  Every patch has screwed us in some way.  Even the last patch for EAW and the G Rack debate gave us more BPV on some of our ships.  Our BCH is just useless now, and it was always one of the worst BCH's in the game.  Our CCH can barely come even with a F-CLC.  Hence, most Mirak cannot compete in PvP 1 on 1 vs comparable ships and pilots.  After all the drone debates and cheese debates that have gone on for years, we are a little gunshy in that respect.  

Then our best ship that we have ever had, gets taken out of the shiplist and gutted, albeit it should be for balance.  You can see where we might get a little angry at this.

If anything, the Kzin would like to become less dependant on drones, not more.  We would rather have more power and energy weapons, so that we could stay in a fight on and even basis.  Ah, but then we become to Klingon like.    Which they dont like.

What the Kzin want is a ship capable of standing up to a D5, C7 or CLC or BCF in a 1 on 1 fight, without having to bring out the cheese.

As it stands now the Mirak only fly 10 ships no matter what list you make.

DF DD and CC in early
MDC,MDC+, MCC and CVA in mid
CVA through late

Thats it. And we only fly the MCC if its in a custom shiplist with the Dizzy points split.  We basically have no medium or heavy command cruiser that can compete on and equal basis.  Hence the backlash on the CCX.

 

[FireSoul]

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Fine, Castrin, if that is what you want.  You have just alienated the Mirak.  We are not exactly a small race and we have always tried to be supportive and fly with honor.   We will abstain.

I would like to request dropping anything like that from this thread. Castrin and KOTH are allowed their decision to do and say as they wish, but not in a way that hurts the community.
.. So.. to BOTH sides:
.. play together.. and settle it on the Battlefield. There aren't enough players as is.


-- Luc
 

[Kortez]

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Fine, Castrin, if that is what you want.  You have just alienated the Mirak.  We are not exactly a small race and we have always tried to be supportive and fly with honor.   We will abstain.

I would like to request dropping anything like that from this thread. Castrin and KOTH are allowed their decision to do and say as they wish, but not in a way that hurts the community.
.. So.. to BOTH sides:
.. play together.. and settle it on the Battlefield. There aren't enough players as is.


-- Luc
 

This is not about hurting the community.  It's about the hurt the Mirak have suffered, throughout the time of SFC2, starting especially after RT3 and moving on since.  Fluf says it well.  However he undersells it.  Because we are coordinated and can flip hexes and take planets and bases, we have had to sacrifice so that we are at a serious disadvantage in many if not most PvP matchups.  That's why I usually abstain.  I can fight with the best of them, but it is an exercise in frustration.  

The one ship we have that is really a great ship is the Z-CCX.  I know it is better than the others, but you know, when you get only ONE ship like this one you cling to it.  If people want to really solve the problem the CCX is not the real answer.  However, we don't want more B racks.  Everyone gets B racks!  How does the drone race stand differentiated from the Klingons and the Feds?  We don't have the energy, we don't have the energy weapons.  B racks won't do it.  That we cannot get the drones which are in SFB only makes it that much more unbalanced.  Ah, I am not happy about this all right now.  
 

[CptCastrin]

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As stated by Nomad I've not seen one Mirak on (till today) so please stop with the threats.

I expected more than this from you, Castrin.  I had always respected you in the past.  To give such a flippant answer is not in keeping with prior contacts.  Also, I do not represent KAT.  I am the Patriarch of KOTH and not KAT.  KAT is free to do as they please, and there would be no hard feelings for our brothers.

If you want to know, we have been playing LB3 and the last 4 times I've tried Reclamation it has been down.

I do not make threats.  As I see it you are against giving the Mirak any edge whatsoever, but the reverse is not true.  Game balance is ok if the Mirak are handicapped.  That is not fair.  Your comments about x2 ships and 2300 is a case in point.  I see no advocating for us to help us balance, just to make sure our best ship is not a factor.  IOW, we can be hurt for game balance.  That is fine, but adding something of real value, not an underpowered heavy cruiser with G racks that should not be there is quite ok.  How sad ...

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Suffice it to say that if the others in SFCx decide that I'm in the wrong then I will abide by that. However it seems strange to me that the KAT/KOTH wish to impose their will on a shiplist (and the servers that use it) that they have stated that they don't even use because the Z-CCX has been ballanced acording to SFB stats.

I've always had the highest regards for all Mirak players but the issue is (in my case) campaign ballance, as much as is possible and the Z-CCX is (by even Fluf's addmission) a OTT ship as is from Talrden's shiplist. I'm sorry if you (or any Mirak) feel alienated by my stance but I have to look at the big picture and ALL the races. The Z-CCX a la Taldren chews up and spits out any other race's CCX (or equvalent) x1 ship because it had the MIRV added.

Does that mean that I say the Z-CCX2 (Firesoul's "return" of the Taldren version Z-CCX) should not be in the list? No. See that's where you (general "you" meaning whoever bent Firesouls ear about the CCX in the first place) and I differ. If Firesoul puts it in it's his call not mine. Then you can play it to your hearts content on GSA. But in the interest of fairness, and unless the others in SFCx deam it otherwise, it will not be found in D2 on a campaign (read serious campaign) server hosted by SFCx.

Oh, make no mistake, we argued for the inclusion of the Z-CCX as it is.  That is our only great ship, and with the CnC rules we cannot fly the Kzinti ships in the packs they are intended to be flown until we hit high rank.

 

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As for fixing all the holes in SFC2/OP ... god I wish I could. But that's still no reason to penalize all the other races.

One last thing, considering the CCX2 will come out in 2300 a full 7 years after all the other races have thier x1 ships and are getting their x2 ships I guess the point is fairly moot. The CCX is, though good, not a match for most x2 ships. My only concern is that the Mirak do not get an unballancing ship at the dawn of x1 thus ruining the campaign for all other race players. After x2 comes out the issue is not really a major one.

We it doesn't seem to bother you that we would get a ship out of time when it is no longer a true factor.  I see that and it just makes me positive I have been right all along.   You seem smug about it.  That is how I shall remember this discussion.

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So with the above I conradict myself, it's possible that you will see the CCX2 on a SFCx server. When and if it's of any value is a different matter.  

Appologies for getting KOTH and KAT confused.

I'll just cover the above in general instead of breaking it up:

If Firesoul adds the CCX(2) back in bully for you.
If KOTH plays on OP or not it's their choice either way.
If you think I'm out to get the Mirak ... wrong ... but your entitled to your opinion as all are.
Was I flipant? Maybe, but not without cause. Accusations of "alienating" and causing people to "abstain" don't bring out the best in me, neither does implying that no Mirak will play OP because of my "actions".
There are no CnC rules on Reclamation (save that you can't have more than 2 ships).
I have never petitioned, cajoled, or requested a ship to be included or removed on the OP+ shiplist.

In the end I'm sorry to hear that you now think of me as some anti-Mirak, smug, and evil person and have now influanced KOTH to not play (at least in OP). Wasn't my intention when I spoke up but then this is why a only rarely do. I always believed in open dialog but when people say to me that ... ah never mind.

As stated, if the rest of SFCx feel otherwise (which we will not discuss here for obvious reasons) I'm sure we will include the CCX2 (or whatever it's called) in whatever capacity it is listed. But that doesn't change my opinion,and that is simply: the CCX (original) if introduced at the early stages of X-tech, unbalances campaigns, causing others to leave, and should not be allowed.
   

[CptCastrin]

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Fine, Castrin, if that is what you want.  You have just alienated the Mirak.  We are not exactly a small race and we have always tried to be supportive and fly with honor.   We will abstain.

I would like to request dropping anything like that from this thread. Castrin and KOTH are allowed their decision to do and say as they wish, but not in a way that hurts the community.
.. So.. to BOTH sides:
.. play together.. and settle it on the Battlefield. There aren't enough players as is.


-- Luc
 

This is not about hurting the community.  It's about the hurt the Mirak have suffered, throughout the time of SFC2, starting especially after RT3 and moving on since.  Fluf says it well.  However he undersells it.  Because we are coordinated and can flip hexes and take planets and bases, we have had to sacrifice so that we are at a serious disadvantage in many if not most PvP matchups.  That's why I usually abstain.  I can fight with the best of them, but it is an exercise in frustration.  

The one ship we have that is really a great ship is the Z-CCX.  I know it is better than the others, but you know, when you get only ONE ship like this one you cling to it.  If people want to really solve the problem the CCX is not the real answer.  However, we don't want more B racks.  Everyone gets B racks!  How does the drone race stand differentiated from the Klingons and the Feds?  We don't have the energy, we don't have the energy weapons.  B racks won't do it.  That we cannot get the drones which are in SFB only makes it that much more unbalanced.  Ah, I am not happy about this all right now.  
 

I just want to go on record here and say that the general hobbling of the Miraks is one reason that I've never been quick to pursue instituting major "CnC" rules on SFCx campaigns.

I've also noticed that in general these rules are only there to limit races that have a fundamental edge in one way or another. Where I can see reasoning in trying to limit escorts (common sense really) other rules I've found to be rather unfriendly to the Mirak and in some cases the Klingons.

It should be up to the admin to create viable shortages in ships. It should not have to come to the fact that you say "no, you can't play that ship because it's a bombardment / commando / cheese ship". The key IMHO is to balance the availability of ships so that there is always a counter to it. Thus my take on the CCX, in early x1 there is no counter to it, it's a god. It's unfortunet that the CCX is the focus but I could name you other ships that are far worse (or just as bad) but the point is balance is possible, if people are willing to acknowledge that all sides need to be taken into account.

I understand why you feel the way you do Kortez. It doesn't change my take on the CCX issue but I do understand.    

[Kortez]

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Fine, Castrin, if that is what you want.  You have just alienated the Mirak.  We are not exactly a small race and we have always tried to be supportive and fly with honor.   We will abstain.

I would like to request dropping anything like that from this thread. Castrin and KOTH are allowed their decision to do and say as they wish, but not in a way that hurts the community.
.. So.. to BOTH sides:
.. play together.. and settle it on the Battlefield. There aren't enough players as is.


-- Luc
 

This is not about hurting the community.  It's about the hurt the Mirak have suffered, throughout the time of SFC2, starting especially after RT3 and moving on since.  Fluf says it well.  However he undersells it.  Because we are coordinated and can flip hexes and take planets and bases, we have had to sacrifice so that we are at a serious disadvantage in many if not most PvP matchups.  That's why I usually abstain.  I can fight with the best of them, but it is an exercise in frustration.  

The one ship we have that is really a great ship is the Z-CCX.  I know it is better than the others, but you know, when you get only ONE ship like this one you cling to it.  If people want to really solve the problem the CCX is not the real answer.  However, we don't want more B racks.  Everyone gets B racks!  How does the drone race stand differentiated from the Klingons and the Feds?  We don't have the energy, we don't have the energy weapons.  B racks won't do it.  That we cannot get the drones which are in SFB only makes it that much more unbalanced.  Ah, I am not happy about this all right now.  
 

I just want to go on record here and say that the general hobbling of the Miraks is one reason that I've never been quick to pursue instituting major "CnC" rules on SFCx campaigns.

I've also noticed that in general these rules are only there to limit races that have a fundamental edge in one way or another. Where I can see reasoning in trying to limit escorts (common sense really) other rules I've found to be rather unfriendly to the Mirak and in some cases the Klingons.

It should be up to the admin to create viable shortages in ships. It should not have to come to the fact that you say "no, you can't play that ship because it's a bombardment / commando / cheese ship". The key IMHO is to balance the availability of ships so that there is always a counter to it. Thus my take on the CCX, in early x1 there is no counter to it, it's a god. It's unfortunet that the CCX is the focus but I could name you other ships that are far worse (or just as bad) but the point is balance is possible, if people are willing to acknowledge that all sides need to be taken into account.

I understand why you feel the way you do Kortez. It doesn't change my take on the CCX issue but I do understand.    

Castrin, I KNOW I overreacted to your statement.  I apologize.  I'll tell you why, it's because of the longstanding hobbling of the Mirak (and to a lesser degree, the Klingons).  It is driving me up the wall, so when our only uber ship is hit, too, it just seems like, great, I will NOT fly a BCH (or substitute something else).  They all suck!

Our second generation x heavy cruisers are ridiculous.  You can fly about 18 and charge.  THAT is an x2-ship?  Man, the XCA is a death trap, if the opponent has any savvy.  I could go through the list.  I KNOW the Z-CCX is god.  I know it is unfair.  I know that when I feel happy I am god, just for a moment, it's wrong, but after all the diminutions it feels like justice to me.  I know that is wrong too, even bad, and I am not seeking to be caustic;  I am just telling you how I and many Mirak feel.

Actually, your point about the CCX in 2300 is VERY WELL TAKEN.  the Z-CCX cannot face a G-XCA, an F-XCA, etc.  So, you know, I was just wrong to not notice that before.  It is just a continuation of the same problem we've had all along.

I gotta find me a good brick wall to run into, because I am unsure how to proceed from here.  Maybe the pain will take my mind off of it.

Peace to you Piece to me ...

 

[CptCastrin]

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   All this arguement over one ship is getting a little ridiculous.  The bottom line is, we want to have our stock CCX available and agree it is to strong for a GenX1 ship.  However we do want it available in 2300 as a GenX2 ship, as it is basically, the only ship we will fly, other than the X-DD and the X-DG.  The other heavy cruisers will not be flown as they are too underpowered to be effective.  I think this is a good compromise and it should be addressed this way.  I in no way want to see any campaign unbalanced, and agree the stock CCX is too much for a 1stGen ship.  But I do think it makes a good 2nd Gen ship, and should be treated as such.  

I agree, maybe a bit ridiculous but it has brought things forward that I think we now have the chance to correct.

Many feel that the Taldren CCX is a god ship and this causes many to flee the camapign when it comes out. This is not right.

On the other hand the Mirak are being hobbled, either by CnC rules or thier own ships. This isn't right either.

We need to figure out what can be done ship wise to make the Mirak competative. Fixing things gamewise is out of the question so what needs to be done to the ships. How will the SFB ships help? And how can issues like the CCX be ballanced so everyone is happy (or at least equally unhappy ).

I don't have the answers but I'm willing to help find them.  

[Green]

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This may, in the end, be much ado about nothing.  At least I hope so.

Original thought still remains.

FireSoul.  We've gotten the rundown on the Z-CCX and some of the ideas on how to tweak it (make a CCX1 and a CCX2) and they sound good.

Castrin.  Good post.  I do think OP+ will run great and will be a lot of fun.  The discussions over a single ship are important (at least to Kzin flyers) but can be worked through.  As long as we keep talking about it.

[FireSoul]

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The one ship we have that is really a great ship is the Z-CCX.  I know it is better than the others, but you know, when you get only ONE ship like this one you cling to it.  If people want to really solve the problem the CCX is not the real answer.  However, we don't want more B racks.  Everyone gets B racks!  How does the drone race stand differentiated from the Klingons and the Feds?  We don't have the energy, we don't have the energy weapons.  B racks won't do it.  That we cannot get the drones which are in SFB only makes it that much more unbalanced.  Ah, I am not happy about this all right now.  
 

I don't understand the thing about the B racks.

[Kortez]

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The one ship we have that is really a great ship is the Z-CCX.  I know it is better than the others, but you know, when you get only ONE ship like this one you cling to it.  If people want to really solve the problem the CCX is not the real answer.  However, we don't want more B racks.  Everyone gets B racks!  How does the drone race stand differentiated from the Klingons and the Feds?  We don't have the energy, we don't have the energy weapons.  B racks won't do it.  That we cannot get the drones which are in SFB only makes it that much more unbalanced.  Ah, I am not happy about this all right now.  
 

I don't understand the thing about the B racks.  

The B rack is ok, but it's nothing special.  If THE Drone Race is to be helped the B rack really doesn't do much.  It's better than an A rack, but they shouldn't be on late era ships and on anyway.  The C rack is good, but it's really limited in how many drones it can carry.  The E racks, however are the size of a B rack with the firing capabilities of a C rack.  Having E racks on later era Mirak ships helps somewhat.  It doesn't answer the underpowering of the ships or the real nature of the lack of PvP competitiveness, but it helps incrementally.

E is better than B.
 

[jdmckinney]

I would like to hear the player opinions on FS's X1 still. Heck, maybe it's time for a mini-campaign JUST using Xes and late era ships to see where the balance issues are. Since it would be more of a balancing testbed, it could be up while bigger, more in-depth campaigns (like SG3) are going on. This might help FS find any issues with Xes without relying totally on GSA tests.

I think I'll post a D2 forum poll about that. Look for it and vote.

Now, about the rest of the Mirak/Kzinti fleet: I used to love flying the CM+ and CCH against the Hydrans on RT2.5 -- the last ROOK-run campaign. I remember monumental battles with Dizzy in his Hydran skin. I would buy a couple cheap escort frigates (read: attrition units) to help against the fighters, and it was all a blast. I was not very good at PvP against Lyrans in those days, but RT2.5 had the kitties as friends. Why do players now spit on the CM+ and CCH? What am I missing?

About the D5XD (that's the right designation now that I have it in front of me) and the Kzinti ship it copied, Captain's Log 16 mentions a CMDX:

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(R3.206) Klingon D5XD: The Klingons built the first of these powerful scout/drone ships for independent bombardment missions (copying the Kzinti CMDX), but ended up using the handful that were built as fleet scouts in direct combat (as the Kzintis did), where they were powerful anti-drone platforms ... Year in Service 183 ... explosion strength 17 ... etc.

The D5XD has 8 drone racks: 4 GX and 4 BX. It has 4 sensors. It hs 4 Ph1 (2 FX, 1 LLR, 1 RRR) -- these would be PhX in OP. It has cargo instead of APR. And so on. One might guess the CMDX it copied also had sensors and 8 drone racks. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to have a CMDX added based on the more readily available CMX using much the same design differences the D5XD exhibits from the D5X.

There's also a Federation DGX in that CL issue, which has 4 GX drones, 2 photons, and 6 Ph1 (PhX 3xFH, 3xRS, 3xLS).

As for other Kzinti SFB ships, the recent Module J2 has some more cruiser-sized carriers for Kzinti (along with similar ships for the other empires): the CVD interdiction carrier, which has no disruptors, 2 B and 2 C drones, 4 Ph1, 8 Ph3 and 24 fighters (16 in SFC); the CVP patrol carrier, with the 4 drones, just 4 Ph1, and 18 fighters (12 in SFC); the DDE destroyer escort (an oddly absent ship until now); and the CLE light escort cruiser (another previously missing ship).

CL 24 has the FKE escort frigate (improving the choice over the lame FFE) and the EBC/ABC escort battlecruiser (which was never actually produced because of the demand for BC hulls for other uses).

I'm pretty sure FS has already added the BF and HDW, which are both decent ships. Similarly there are the DNL, DND, and BBV.

Do any of these seem appealing? Is there a design that's missing? Will the hardpoint splits help specific ships (medium cruisers)?

[CptCastrin]

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Castrin, I KNOW I overreacted to your statement.  I apologize.  I'll tell you why, it's because of the longstanding hobbling of the Mirak (and to a lesser degree, the Klingons).  It is driving me up the wall, so when our only uber ship is hit, too, it just seems like, great, I will NOT fly a BCH (or substitute something else).  They all suck!

Our second generation x heavy cruisers are ridiculous.  You can fly about 18 and charge.  THAT is an x2-ship?  Man, the XCA is a death trap, if the opponent has any savvy.  I could go through the list.  I KNOW the Z-CCX is god.  I know it is unfair.  I know that when I feel happy I am god, just for a moment, it's wrong, but after all the diminutions it feels like justice to me.  I know that is wrong too, even bad, and I am not seeking to be caustic;  I am just telling you how I and many Mirak feel.

Actually, your point about the CCX in 2300 is VERY WELL TAKEN.  the Z-CCX cannot face a G-XCA, an F-XCA, etc.  So, you know, I was just wrong to not notice that before.  It is just a continuation of the same problem we've had all along.

I gotta find me a good brick wall to run into, because I am unsure how to proceed from here.  Maybe the pain will take my mind off of it.

Peace to you Piece to me ...  

No problem Kortez, totally understandable.

I'm not sure what can be done. Maybe a "true" SFB shiplist (SFCx was working on one but we haven't worked on it since the OP+ one was so popular) where all the Taldren created ships are tossed? Or just a closer look at what we have (Fluf says he's helping Firesoul with some isues) currently. Not sure. There are so many possibilities and so many ships.

I think the important issue here is not so much just the CCX but how do we reverse the "we only fly 10 ships" situation. That alone will not only help the Mirak but the other races as well as they will have more people to face in D2. But in all things the spirit of overall ballance must be maintained.
 

[jdmckinney]

Minor correction: though we did stop working on the SFB-based shiplist we intended (and still intend) to use for ToW, I have picked it up again and have been making progress over the past couple months. It's slow work and I do it generally only when I stay overnight on business trips (which is weekly now). However, aside from a few ships and some differences in approach, it is not a whole lot different from the OP+ list as far as ship choices, since we are both using SFB as source material.

[FireSoul]

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I would like to hear the player opinions on FS's X1 still. Heck, maybe it's time for a mini-campaign JUST using Xes and late era ships to see where the balance issues are. Since it would be more of a balancing testbed, it could be up while bigger, more in-depth campaigns (like SG3) are going on. This might help FS find any issues with Xes without relying totally on GSA tests.

I think I'll post a D2 forum poll about that. Look for it and vote.

Now, about the rest of the Mirak/Kzinti fleet: I used to love flying the CM+ and CCH against the Hydrans on RT2.5 -- the last ROOK-run campaign. I remember monumental battles with Dizzy in his Hydran skin. I would buy a couple cheap escort frigates (read: attrition units) to help against the fighters, and it was all a blast. I was not very good at PvP against Lyrans in those days, but RT2.5 had the kitties as friends. Why do players now spit on the CM+ and CCH? What am I missing?

About the D5XD (that's the right designation now that I have it in front of me) and the Kzinti ship it copied, Captain's Log 16 mentions a CMDX:

Quote:

(R3.206) Klingon D5XD: The Klingons built the first of these powerful scout/drone ships for independent bombardment missions (copying the Kzinti CMDX), but ended up using the handful that were built as fleet scouts in direct combat (as the Kzintis did), where they were powerful anti-drone platforms ... Year in Service 183 ... explosion strength 17 ... etc.

The D5XD has 8 drone racks: 4 GX and 4 BX. It has 4 sensors. It hs 4 Ph1 (2 FX, 1 LLR, 1 RRR) -- these would be PhX in OP. It has cargo instead of APR. And so on. One might guess the CMDX it copied also had sensors and 8 drone racks. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to have a CMDX added based on the more readily available CMX using much the same design differences the D5XD exhibits from the D5X.

There's also a Federation DGX in that CL issue, which has 4 GX drones, 2 photons, and 6 Ph1 (PhX 3xFH, 3xRS, 3xLS).

As for other Kzinti SFB ships, the recent Module J2 has some more cruiser-sized carriers for Kzinti (along with similar ships for the other empires): the CVD interdiction carrier, which has no disruptors, 2 B and 2 C drones, 4 Ph1, 8 Ph3 and 24 fighters (16 in SFC); the CVP patrol carrier, with the 4 drones, just 4 Ph1, and 18 fighters (12 in SFC); the DDE destroyer escort (an oddly absent ship until now); and the CLE light escort cruiser (another previously missing ship).

CL 24 has the FKE escort frigate (improving the choice over the lame FFE) and the EBC/ABC escort battlecruiser (which was never actually produced because of the demand for BC hulls for other uses).

I'm pretty sure FS has already added the BF and HDW, which are both decent ships. Similarly there are the DNL, DND, and BBV.

Do any of these seem appealing? Is there a design that's missing? Will the hardpoint splits help specific ships (medium cruisers)?  

I don't own J2.
.. and I resist it a bit.. what about balance to the PF-using races in SFC? .. what do they get in addition?
-- Luc

[jdmckinney]

I'm just saying there are a few other SFB Kzinti ships out there. I agree the fighter races have it better than the PF ones. Even without adding J2 ships, that will be the case. The best fix I can think of is to try some of the mods for having PFs and fighters for all races, which is definitely not a general-use shiplist issue.

[Fluf]

What Kortez is trying to say here, is that the E rack which we tested in AOTK was originally a SFB rack designed for fast firing vs fighters and PFs.  The Mirak/Kzin are the drone races.  However, the Klingon D5D and the Federation NCD+ can outfly any Mirak equalivant drone cruiser such as the MDC+ any day of the week.  The Feds and Klingons are both drone races too.  The only distinct Mirak trait vs the other drone races is, that we are underpowered, have larger turning rates, and fewer good arcs and energy weapons.  The Mirak must count on overwhelming their enemy with drones in order to succeed.   Against the AI, this is usually fairly easy.  Vs a live human player, it is almost impossible.  The drone is the most easily defensable weapon in the game.  With a limit of 12 drone control, and the addition of new SFB ships such as the LDR and such, it is even harder to hit a ship with a drone.  In player vs player, the Kzin is forced to try to make the other player make a mistake, and get a lucky shot in, or run out of drones, and either die or run in defeat.  Just ask Moggy or Dogmatix when the last time I hit them with a drone was!  Hence the move to carriers and being able to overwhelm your opponent with drones with the fighters.  Ah but alas, we all now what SFC and all the fighter bugs have done.  And with the cost of replacing fighters and fast drones in late, they become cost prohibitive very quickly.


What do the Mirak want?

More drones?   Hell no.  We dont want another drone bombardment cruiser like the MDCX.

We want a medium command cruiser and a heavy command cruiser that is equal to its Federation, Klingon and other race counterparts which is not dependant on drones, or give us our drones and our Mirvs so we can overwhelm the opponent and have a chance in PvP.

Recommendations to Firesoull

Check all Mirak ships with more than 2 Dizzies on a hardpoint, such as the CM CM+, MCC, MCV, MTT-CVA, CVA and split the dizzies and also take a look at expanding their arcs.  Also take a look at the SCS and tell me why a Mirak would purchase that ship.  Make it the Space Control ship it should be.  It should be one of the most feared ships in the game along with the Fed SCS.

Look at how to make the MCC, CCH and BCH more competive ships vs other races counterparts.  

[Green]

As a mirak who flys, in order, the DD, MCC, CC (yes, I actually use it), NCA, CCH, and BCH I agree with Flufster.  I fly the mirak non-droners for the most part because I don't like fighters ... well, okay, because I can't use them right to save my life (but am trying to learn ... still).  The ships have something to desire (i.e. power).  But the DoE tweak to the MCC (split the dizzies) made a big difference.  At least my fellow kzin stopped laughing at me for flying them.

[FireSoul]

Quote:
I'm just saying there are a few other SFB Kzinti ships out there. I agree the fighter races have it better than the PF ones. Even without adding J2 ships, that will be the case. The best fix I can think of is to try some of the mods for having PFs and fighters for all races, which is definitely not a general-use shiplist issue.  

Bingo. That's why there are no J2 ships yet.. other than the fact I didn't buy the module.
-- Luc