Topic: Planning OP+ shiplist 2.1 .. controversial?

[Fluf]

I have to agree Mace, the Klingon D7X just sucked.  The F-CCX wanst that bad of a boat, but it still didnt compare to the Z-CCX.  None of the first generations X ships did.  The Z-CCX is a OTT boat when comparing it with any other first genX ship, and it needed to be adjusted.  It was a campaign ender most of the time, which if you remember is what happened to RT3 last year.  I would have rather seen the other first genX ships improved to match the CCX instead of seeing it cut.  But I agree with Firesouls decision and compromise.  The only thing I dont like is "G-Racks" lol.  I would have rather seen "E" Racks on this boat and at least 2 PhsGs left on the rear. But oh well.

And yes Nomad, is funny we are debating the X ships.  However, Im not a hardcore SFBer.  I played the FASA game before SFB.  I enjoy the X ships in OP and think OP has the ability to lead all the way into the TNG generation in a balanced fashion if done right.  Most D2 campaign never make it into the Advanced era, because of length of time and campaign VC's, so the campaign usually ends before the X ships come out.  But its the diversity in OP and the extra ships and even the advanced era which brings me back to it.

Many thanks to Firesoul for developing this shiplist.  Its a work of art!

[jimmi7769]

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I have to agree Mace, the Klingon D7X just sucked.  The F-CCX wanst that bad of a boat, but it still didnt compare to the Z-CCX.  None of the first generations X ships did.  The Z-CCX is a OTT boat when comparing it with any other first genX ship, and it needed to be adjusted.  It was a campaign ender most of the time, which if you remember is what happened to RT3 last year.  I would have rather seen the other first genX ships improved to match the CCX instead of seeing it cut.  But I agree with Firesouls decision and compromise.  The only thing I dont like is "G-Racks" lol.  I would have rather seen "E" Racks on this boat and at least 2 PhsGs left on the rear. But oh well.

And yes Nomad, is funny we are debating the X ships.  However, Im not a hardcore SFBer.  I played the FASA game before SFB.  I enjoy the X ships in OP and think OP has the ability to lead all the way into the TNG generation in a balanced fashion if done right.  Most D2 campaign never make it into the Advanced era, because of length of time and campaign VC's, so the campaign usually ends before the X ships come out.  But its the diversity in OP and the extra ships and even the advanced era which brings me back to it.

Many thanks to Firesoul for developing this shiplist.  Its a work of art!  

The X-ships shouldn't have standard G-racks on them.  they have a Gx rack which is pretty much a G-rack with 6 rounds instead of 4.  To simulate this they should have B-Racks and AMD-B's instead of G-racks and AMD-A's.

[jdmckinney]

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The X-ships shouldn't have standard G-racks on them.  they have a Gx rack which is pretty much a G-rack with 6 rounds instead of 4.  To simulate this they should have B-Racks and AMD-B's instead of G-racks and AMD-A's.

Personally, I agree with this translation. The GX racks are essentially bigger Gs, so since SFC requires separate drones and ADDs, it is an easy thing to put in Bs and ADD-12s instead of Gs and ADD-6s. The trouble here might be that any scripted universal edits FS might do regarding drone rack or ADD reloads could affect these ships.

Anyway, I can't really comment on Xes in OP+ just because I haven't actually looked closely at them, and I've certainly not taken the time to play them.

FS, on the phantom MCDX (if that's what it was called), there is no way for me to get this ship. The only way I can think of to get it would be to find someone who had that obsolete newsletter (Star Fleet Times? there were a couple different ones, and I still need to check where it said the ship was published when I get home).

On other CL ships, there are many considered conjectural -- designed but never built, usually. However, some were simply published there as new ships that don't show up in the main body of SSD modules. For instance, they recently published an improved Kzinti survey cruiser. The SRI (SRI+, SRIV as I have begun referring to it in my list) was published because someone convinced them the SR was done wrong. Instead of going back and replacing it altogether with the new specs, the SRI is now available as an alternative or refit. Granted, this is not exactly a ship people would be clamoring for, but it does show an example of how ADB publishes additional legal, actual production ships in CLs now and then. Certainly there should be a legitimacy vs. value test to see if a CL ship is worth adding.

Overall, I find it really cool that the list is in such good shape that we are down to debating minor additions. It shows just how much work you've done on this project.

[CptCastrin]

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Thanks for the compromise Firesoul.  And yes Nomad, we are complaining about our cheese!    The Mirak have never had a heavy cruiser that could compete in PvP until we got the CCX.  Most were very disappointed when they saw it gutted and were not going to play on a server with Firesouls list.  I know that sounds very childish,  the "taking my ball and going home" line, but it is reality.  The CCX is the only ship the Mirak will use, even when the rest of the X2 ships come out.  Basically because all the other Mirak X ships are way to underpowered to fly, which of course, is a racial trait we deal with all the way from early era.  The orignal Z-CCX is a Taldren mistake I know.  However, considering this is a SFB list,  where is our Spearfish drone, ECM drone, ect ect.  You get my drift.  We want our Mirvs.  And actually think we should get them when the original CCX comes out in Firesouls list.  Our drones are supposed to make up for our lack of power, poor arcs and turning rates.  The CCX in Firesouls list will just be another underpowered Mirak heavy cruiser that no one will fly, because of the BPV draw the will face.  MIght as well fly a MDC+ with seven drones and pull in  smaller AI!  

But I do thank Firesoul for listening to us and reaching that compromise.  

Well I hate to say it but if it came to allowing the Z-CCX2 in at the pain of all other races (thus making them leave in droves) or just allowing the Z-CCX which is by far more ballanced compared to the other x1 ships then I'd go with the second choice.

Simply put NO X-tech heavy weapons should be on a x1 era ship. Though there are some examples of x1.5 ships, those were mostly prototypes and never saw combat if they even truely exisited.

If there is to be a Z-CCX2 then there shold be equivalents in all races for the same and that is a game balance nightmare (does anyone REALLY want to see a F-CCX with HPTs?).

Look I love Kzin/Mirak (my 2nd fav race btw) ships but the Z-CCX a la Taldren was a bad idea. If it comes back to the OP+ shiplist (as the Z-CCX2)  then for the sake of all the other races it will most probably be a "R" classed ship and never see the deeps of space on a server that I run (excepting if the rest of the group want it included in a particular campaign). When some race has a weapon that there is no real defense for it's pretty much game over. MIRV racks fit this discription in SFC in that gap where other races only have pre-X tech to defend against them.

The case that Kzin/Mirak ships turn like boats and have no power is a bad argument for including MIRV racks. The Feds have long had to deal with the same however we don't have the luxury of a weapon that can be added and that has no power cost yet can rip a ship to shreads in record time. Equiping HPTs would proably be the death of us.  

The SFB crew had it right and I apploded Firesoul for using the SFB version. Even if it means that a sometime ally gets a ship that they are not happy with.

So if not having the "Z-CCX2" prevents you from playing on a OP+ server I'm sorry to hear that but them's the breaks. I'd rather have a server full of Klinks, Lyrans (you guys are nuts), Feds, and what not then sacrifice them just so I can get some Mirak to play. Sorry, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few (now where did I hear that?  ).

   

[FireSoul]

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Just keep in mind that some ships are considered Full PFT's but in Taldrens list they have only 2 PF's attached to them and should have a full load of 4.  Namely a few Lyrans, Lion DN, Wildcat BC, Hellcat BCH, etc.  These are listed in the SFB R section as being full PF tenders and not casual carriers(due to the repair boxes I guess)

You haven't seen my shiplist lately, have you..  

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On the 1st Gen X-Ships,  you kept the Mirak 1X did you keep all of the other wonder boats like the F-CCX and the K-DX or did you replace them with your subpar versions????
I'm kidding!!!   Everyone knows who had the worst 1X ships in the game.  

Replaced them with the REAL versions.  
 

[FireSoul]

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The X-ships shouldn't have standard G-racks on them. they have a Gx rack which is pretty much a G-rack with 6 rounds instead of 4. To simulate this they should have B-Racks and AMD-B's instead of G-racks and AMD-A's.

ADD12s.. crap you're right.

.. however, to keep them as G-racks in the UIs, I left them in as G-racks... but with 3 reloads for the AI side of things. I hope no one minds... I found the aestatics more pleasing.
 

[FireSoul]

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So if not having the "Z-CCX2" prevents you from playing on a OP+ server I'm sorry to hear that but them's the breaks. I'd rather have a server full of Klinks, Lyrans (you guys are nuts), Feds, and what not then sacrifice them just so I can get some Mirak to play. Sorry, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few (now where did I hear that?  ).
 

I am fine with putting it in as a "R" ship .. even as a normal ship. By the time it comes out, everyone has an xship so the MIRVs won't be that much of an issue.

-- Luc

[Kortez]

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So if not having the "Z-CCX2" prevents you from playing on a OP+ server I'm sorry to hear that but them's the breaks. I'd rather have a server full of Klinks, Lyrans (you guys are nuts), Feds, and what not then sacrifice them just so I can get some Mirak to play. Sorry, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few (now where did I hear that?  ).
 

Fine, Castrin, if that is what you want.  You have just alienated the Mirak.  We are not exactly a small race and we have always tried to be supportive and fly with honor.   We will abstain.

When you can port all the nuances of SFB into SFC, like our variable drones, the chance of mutiny in Klingons ships, their special weapon, the rom cloak, and all the rest it will make a lot more sense.

 

[jimmi7769]

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 The only thing I dont like is "G-Racks" lol.  I would have rather seen "E" Racks on this boat and at least 2 PhsGs left on the rear. But oh well.
 

I think the Phaser G's all over the X1 ships was basically a concession to the fact that SFB P-1's on X1 ships could fire as P-G's if the need arose.  Since this couldn't be done in game (much like the infamous G-Rack) we get P-G's all over the place.

I'm not opposed to having these on the ships just not very many(the restrictions on how they could fire were pretty harsh in SFB).

As for the Mirak getting special drones, Klingons and Feds would get these as well(as would the Mirak get Dis-H).

In a perfect world.................

[FireSoul]

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 The only thing I dont like is "G-Racks" lol.  I would have rather seen "E" Racks on this boat and at least 2 PhsGs left on the rear. But oh well.
 

I think the Phaser G's all over the X1 ships was basically a concession to the fact that SFB P-1's on X1 ships could fire as P-G's if the need arose.  Since this couldn't be done in game (much like the infamous G-Rack) we get P-G's all over the place.

I'm not opposed to having these on the ships just not very many(the restrictions on how they could fire were pretty harsh in SFB).

As for the Mirak getting special drones, Klingons and Feds would get these as well(as would the Mirak get Dis-H).

In a perfect world.................  

Actually..
.. the SFB rules for X1 have changed. What you have there are early test rules. Later rules stated that ph1X could be overloaded, and that's it. .. and now recent rules state that they cannot be overlaoded at all. Since the phX is based on the overload-capable but no phG rules, I think it was fair to correct the ships. After all, I add a few other dozen xships to enter at the same time which followed that set of rules.

The NEW rules can be found here. These rules will not apply for this game.
 http://www.starfleetgames.com/sfb/errata/X-shipCL23.pdf

-- Luc


 

[Fluf]

Sorry to hear that Castrin, as the Miraks are the 3rd largest populated fleets in SFC, with the KOTHs and KATS supporting over 60 members.  Firesoul's compromise gives us our CCX in 2300, when the rest of the X ships come out.  I dont see the problem with this.  KLAW will discuss this issue and vote accordingly on which servers we will play on as they come up.

[jimmi7769]

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 The only thing I dont like is "G-Racks" lol.  I would have rather seen "E" Racks on this boat and at least 2 PhsGs left on the rear. But oh well.
 

I think the Phaser G's all over the X1 ships was basically a concession to the fact that SFB P-1's on X1 ships could fire as P-G's if the need arose.  Since this couldn't be done in game (much like the infamous G-Rack) we get P-G's all over the place.

I'm not opposed to having these on the ships just not very many(the restrictions on how they could fire were pretty harsh in SFB).

As for the Mirak getting special drones, Klingons and Feds would get these as well(as would the Mirak get Dis-H).

In a perfect world.................  

Actually..
.. the SFB rules for X1 have changed. What you have there are early test rules. Later rules stated that ph1X could be overloaded, and that's it. .. and now recent rules state that they cannot be overlaoded at all. Since the phX is based on the overload-capable but no phG rules, I think it was fair to correct the ships. After all, I add a few other dozen xships to enter at the same time which followed that set of rules.

The NEW rules can be found here. These rules will not apply for this game.
 http://www.starfleetgames.com/sfb/errata/X-shipCL23.pdf

-- Luc


 

True enough.

[jdmckinney]

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Sorry to hear that Castrin, as the Miraks are the 3rd largest populated fleets in SFC, with the KOTHs and KATS supporting over 60 members.  Firesoul's compromise gives us our CCX in 2300, when the rest of the X ships come out.  I dont see the problem with this.  KLAW will discuss this issue and vote accordingly on which servers we will play on as they come up.

Hey, it's a free universe. However, I have not seen even ONE Mirak/Kzinti player on Reclamation. What would Castrin risk losing with his stance? Fluf, as you pointed out above, the Z-CCX seriously damaged the player base for RT3 because of the inequities. Surely there can be some middle ground where the Mirak/Kzinti Xes are balanced against other races' Xes. While it certainly would be nice to have more drone types available, there are other races who also suffer from this lack of variety. If the need is there for a CA-level X-drone cruiser, maybe one should be created. The CCXes are all general ships, not bombardment cruisers. So, why not have a Z-CCX that fits that mold, and supplement that with a bombardment X-alternative?

[jdmckinney]

By the way, if I'm reading FS right on the Xes, he does not retain the original Taldren CCXes for any race. Why should he break his rules for one race, regardless of population? If the Z-CCX is in as an alternate, then probably the other original Taldren CCXes should be there, as well.

[CptCastrin]

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So if not having the "Z-CCX2" prevents you from playing on a OP+ server I'm sorry to hear that but them's the breaks. I'd rather have a server full of Klinks, Lyrans (you guys are nuts), Feds, and what not then sacrifice them just so I can get some Mirak to play. Sorry, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few (now where did I hear that?  ).
 

Fine, Castrin, if that is what you want.  You have just alienated the Mirak.  We are not exactly a small race and we have always tried to be supportive and fly with honor.   We will abstain.

When you can port all the nuances of SFB into SFC, like our variable drones, the chance of mutiny in Klingons ships, their special weapon, the rom cloak, and all the rest it will make a lot more sense.

 

As stated by Nomad I've not seen one Mirak on (till today) so please stop with the threats.

Suffice it to say that if the others in SFCx decide that I'm in the wrong then I will abide by that. However it seems strange to me that the KAT/KOTH wish to impose their will on a shiplist (and the servers that use it) that they have stated that they don't even use because the Z-CCX has been ballanced acording to SFB stats.

I've always had the highest regards for all Mirak players but the issue is (in my case) campaign ballance, as much as is possible and the Z-CCX is (by even Fluf's addmission) a OTT ship as is from Talrden's shiplist. I'm sorry if you (or any Mirak) feel alienated by my stance but I have to look at the big picture and ALL the races. The Z-CCX a la Taldren chews up and spits out any other race's CCX (or equvalent) x1 ship because it had the MIRV added.

Does that mean that I say the Z-CCX2 (Firesoul's "return" of the Taldren version Z-CCX) should not be in the list? No. See that's where you (general "you" meaning whoever bent Firesouls ear about the CCX in the first place) and I differ. If Firesoul puts it in it's his call not mine. Then you can play it to your hearts content on GSA. But in the interest of fairness, and unless the others in SFCx deam it otherwise, it will not be found in D2 on a campaign (read serious campaign) server hosted by SFCx.

As for fixing all the holes in SFC2/OP ... god I wish I could. But that's still no reason to penalize all the other races.

One last thing, considering the CCX2 will come out in 2300 a full 7 years after all the other races have thier x1 ships and are getting their x2 ships I guess the point is fairly moot. The CCX is, though good, not a match for most x2 ships. My only concern is that the Mirak do not get an unballancing ship at the dawn of x1 thus ruining the campaign for all other race players. After x2 comes out the issue is not really a major one.

So with the above I conradict myself, it's possible that you will see the CCX2 on a SFCx server. When and if it's of any value is a different matter.  

[CptCastrin]

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Sorry to hear that Castrin, as the Miraks are the 3rd largest populated fleets in SFC, with the KOTHs and KATS supporting over 60 members.  Firesoul's compromise gives us our CCX in 2300, when the rest of the X ships come out.  I dont see the problem with this.  KLAW will discuss this issue and vote accordingly on which servers we will play on as they come up.  

As you have been mostly sticking to EaW and dislike the OP+ shiplist in general (at least it seems that way) I expect you will remain in EaW.

I thank you for considering playing in OP and hope you continue with the great feed back.  




EDIT: and just to be clear, the above was not a sarcastic slam of any kind, I truely do appriciate Fluf's (and other's) feed back and help in the community. It's mearly my possition that where one plays is entirely up to them and as KOTH/KAT have been mostly found in EaW I don't see that changing. If they were, however, to play in OP it would make my heart glad. Not that it would cange my mind on the CCX issue ... much.

[Green]

This may, in the end, be much ado about nothing.  At least I hope so.

I have jumped on Reclamation recently (2 days ago) after reading Dog's comments on giving OP a chance.  So I reloaded, repatched, and D/L'd the Reclamation files and got on for a little bit.  It felt great and was fun.  I spread the word and hoped to see some game time on OP and EAW.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the CCX is too much too early.  And FireSoul's concept of letting it live ... but later as an X2 ... seemed to be a pretty good idea.  And if, as an X2 ship, it isn't the cat's meow ... then it should be okay (based on what you wrote ... may be misinterpreting things).

On a side note, FireSoul, I am having a blast flying your shiplist on LB3 (EAW).  The variety is fantastic and many of the ships require a very different way of playing (i.e. the Z-BF [fly fast, and I mean fast] and the Z-MTT-CAV [fly slow, but launch many things at the enemy])

[Kortez]

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So if not having the "Z-CCX2" prevents you from playing on a OP+ server I'm sorry to hear that but them's the breaks. I'd rather have a server full of Klinks, Lyrans (you guys are nuts), Feds, and what not then sacrifice them just so I can get some Mirak to play. Sorry, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few (now where did I hear that?  ).
 

Fine, Castrin, if that is what you want.  You have just alienated the Mirak.  We are not exactly a small race and we have always tried to be supportive and fly with honor.   We will abstain.

When you can port all the nuances of SFB into SFC, like our variable drones, the chance of mutiny in Klingons ships, their special weapon, the rom cloak, and all the rest it will make a lot more sense.

 



 

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As stated by Nomad I've not seen one Mirak on (till today) so please stop with the threats.

I expected more than this from you, Castrin.  I had always respected you in the past.  To give such a flippant answer is not in keeping with prior contacts.  Also, I do not represent KAT.  I am the Patriarch of KOTH and not KAT.  KAT is free to do as they please, and there would be no hard feelings for our brothers.

If you want to know, we have been playing LB3 and the last 4 times I've tried Reclamation it has been down.

I do not make threats.  As I see it you are against giving the Mirak any edge whatsoever, but the reverse is not true.  Game balance is ok if the Mirak are handicapped.  That is not fair.  Your comments about x2 ships and 2300 is a case in point.  I see no advocating for us to help us balance, just to make sure our best ship is not a factor.  IOW, we can be hurt for game balance.  That is fine, but adding something of real value, not an underpowered heavy cruiser with G racks that should not be there is quite ok.  How sad ...

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Suffice it to say that if the others in SFCx decide that I'm in the wrong then I will abide by that. However it seems strange to me that the KAT/KOTH wish to impose their will on a shiplist (and the servers that use it) that they have stated that they don't even use because the Z-CCX has been ballanced acording to SFB stats.

I've always had the highest regards for all Mirak players but the issue is (in my case) campaign ballance, as much as is possible and the Z-CCX is (by even Fluf's addmission) a OTT ship as is from Talrden's shiplist. I'm sorry if you (or any Mirak) feel alienated by my stance but I have to look at the big picture and ALL the races. The Z-CCX a la Taldren chews up and spits out any other race's CCX (or equvalent) x1 ship because it had the MIRV added.

Does that mean that I say the Z-CCX2 (Firesoul's "return" of the Taldren version Z-CCX) should not be in the list? No. See that's where you (general "you" meaning whoever bent Firesouls ear about the CCX in the first place) and I differ. If Firesoul puts it in it's his call not mine. Then you can play it to your hearts content on GSA. But in the interest of fairness, and unless the others in SFCx deam it otherwise, it will not be found in D2 on a campaign (read serious campaign) server hosted by SFCx.

Oh, make no mistake, we argued for the inclusion of the Z-CCX as it is.  That is our only great ship, and with the CnC rules we cannot fly the Kzinti ships in the packs they are intended to be flown until we hit high rank.

 

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As for fixing all the holes in SFC2/OP ... god I wish I could. But that's still no reason to penalize all the other races.

One last thing, considering the CCX2 will come out in 2300 a full 7 years after all the other races have thier x1 ships and are getting their x2 ships I guess the point is fairly moot. The CCX is, though good, not a match for most x2 ships. My only concern is that the Mirak do not get an unballancing ship at the dawn of x1 thus ruining the campaign for all other race players. After x2 comes out the issue is not really a major one.

We it doesn't seem to bother you that we would get a ship out of time when it is no longer a true factor.  I see that and it just makes me positive I have been right all along.   You seem smug about it.  That is how I shall remember this discussion.

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So with the above I conradict myself, it's possible that you will see the CCX2 on a SFCx server. When and if it's of any value is a different matter.  

   

[Fluf]

Castrin,

    The KOTH Fleet has nothing against Firesoul's OP+ shiplist.  I actually love the list and am hoping to work with him on some corrections to the Mirak list that I think it needs.  And yes we have been on EAW for the last 2 weeks as the LItterbox is a KOTH server, and we are testing many new missions and shiplist just as you are.  If you remember a previous post of mine in the D2 forums, the Litterbox was going to be an OP server.  However, TraceyG requested that I help get a campaign together for EAW so we could test the new missions and shiplists before SG3 started.  KOTH has always preferred OP over EAW, as it was a GFL Mirak fleet when OP came out, and was in the beta testing of patches for OP.  I have actually tried to log onto Reclamation a few times, but it has been down the times I have tried.  KOTH will always support OP and our next server will probably be an OP server.

   All this arguement over one ship is getting a little ridiculous.  The bottom line is, we want to have our stock CCX available and agree it is to strong for a GenX1 ship.  However we do want it available in 2300 as a GenX2 ship, as it is basically, the only ship we will fly, other than the X-DD and the X-DG.  The other heavy cruisers will not be flown as they are too underpowered to be effective.  I think this is a good compromise and it should be addressed this way.  I in no way want to see any campaign unbalanced, and agree the stock CCX is too much for a 1stGen ship.  But I do think it makes a good 2nd Gen ship, and should be treated as such.

[jdmckinney]

I'm sorry I'm not understanding things too well, so please someone explain:

First, what CnC rules are in question affecting how anyone flies anything on OP? Up until recently, there were no campaigns, and Reclamation is the first semi-serious attempt at one. There are no CnC rules on Reclamation. The only limitation is a 2-ship ownership limit setting in the .gf files.

Second, if nobody's played an OP campaign with this shiplist so that they've actually gotten to X-ship releases, isn't all this guff about getting neutered unfounded? Have you tried the X1 ships in the OP+ list vs. other X1 ships? Remember, they were ALL redone according to FS. Another important point is that FS does not use PhG on his X1 ships, so the non-Mirak/Kzinti X1 ships do not have anywhere near the ability to deal with MIRVs that Taldren X1s do.

Third, where is this history of Mirak/Kzinti oppression that seems to be a point of contention? Again, we are almost starting over with OP campaigns, so what balance or rules do or don't get used is up for debate until we've actual had some campaigns.

I'm trying to see both sides of this, and it seems to me what the Mirak/Kzinti need is a MDC-type X-drone cruiser, which would have B racks and ADD12s. I personally don't agree with FS's G-rack use in this case because the upper limit of drones one can buy with a G is much lower than with a B. While the more reloads translation may work OK for the AI, it does hurt the player-flown ships.