Topic: Planning OP+ shiplist 2.1 .. controversial?

[FireSoul]

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Moble carriers that had six now with four?  I'm so confused.

If you want... I will publish the proposed changes generated by my script. Sec.
Please note, before reading this, that the number of deckcrews will have to be checked.

 http://pet.dhs.org/~firesoul/sfc2/shiplist/fighters_balance_adjustment.txt

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They'll be BVP adjustments?  It's not the hit i'm worried about, it's the difference between a carrier-that-isn't-a-carrier, a casual carrier, and whatever-else-have-you carriers being too small to tatically see;  Kinda makes some ship types redundant.  Merge the HDW's and HDWC's then? *shrug*

Actually.. I think the HDWs and HDWCs are already correct.

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And... uh... what's an HPT?

HPT? Where?

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Oh, and... uh... why the sudden explosion concerning the Z-CCX?  Funny, I thought no one liked *any* of the X-Ships here...
That would be three fighters in one squadron, rather than two and one fighter squadrons, right?
I didn't even know the Mirak were nerfed.  
I'm still not clear on why the HDWE costs more than the HDW2;  Do cargo boxes really cost that much?

I don't know.
I'll decide the fighter squadrons as I move along.
I didn't know either.
The HDWE is properly configured, on the inside, to be able to call it an Escort. It has the "E" special role. This might come in handy in future scripting. It is a valid variant.



Like I said, i'm no authority on how fighters should be balanced, I just think that the minimum difference in a ship carrying fighters needs to be no less than 2 for it to perform differently than another ship with a different number of fighters.  Give a HDW no fighters and three for an HDWC? *shrug*  I just want the HDW, their casual carriers, their mobile carriers, etc. to, well, be *different*. The APRs were changed to Shuttlebays, btw.

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Balance (bal*ance) n.
 
1. A weighing device, especially one consisting of a rigid beam horizontally suspended by a low-friction support at its center, with identical weighing pans hung at either end, one of which holds an unknown weight while the effective weight in the other is increased by known amounts until the beam is level and motionless,
2. A state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces,
3. The power or means to decide,
4. The bloody and vicious trench warfare associated with online game modifications.
 

Is it always like that?
-- Luc

[TarMinyatur]

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K-F5 and K-E4 should have A-Rack not F-Rack.
 

The F5 and E4 can fire one drone every other turn until they get the B refit. The F rack is appropriate.  

[FireSoul]

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K-F5 and K-E4 should have A-Rack not F-Rack.
 

The F5 and E4 can fire one drone every other turn until they get the B refit. The F rack is appropriate.  

.. can you guide me to the rule?

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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http://www.mninter.net/~phdship/klndwc.gif

Holy cow, that sucker's a bit stronger than Taldren's DWC.

+2 Center Warp
+1 Ph1 on each wing
Ph1 -> Ph2 on waist
+1 B-rack
all for 9 less BPV! (163 vs 154)  

And thus clearly should be added immediately.  As should the K-DWV...but I'd add 2xDroB and at least an AMD12 (bumping up the BPV accordingly)    BTW, this is meant half tongue-in-cheek, and half "I really wouldn't mind it much."


Taldren's D5W and DWC really aren't that much fun to fly for us Klingons.  The power curve sucks due to the increased move cost and phaser charging requirements.  The marginal addtion of firepower (a couple of Ph1s in the case of the DWC, and the added Ph2s) just isn't worth having to slow down so much to charge these weapons.  We'll almost without fail opt for a D5L.  Basically, there isn't much the D5W/DWC can do that a D5L can't, so there's no reason to fly them.


 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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can you help me find the part that mentions 2272-2273 for the K refit in the SFB material?

..as for the Casual Carriers..... that change *IS* for them. I would not leave them alone. They need fixing. That's the issue, here... a balance overhaul for carriers, casual or not.

-- Luc

EDIT: All master ship charts show Y175..

No..because my SFB material is stuffed away in offsite storage.  Going by Taldren's FYAs, that's when the K-refits come out.  That was my actual point of reference.

[TarMinyatur]

Hmm, I'm looking for it now...and can't find it.

The F5 and E4 had Jump Racks installed right? As I look at the stats for Jump Racks they are the same as A-racks in rate of fire. I don't know why I thought that the F5 and E4 had 1 drone/2 turn firing restrictions. Wasn't there a description in R3 about early Klink drone firing rates? I can't find my Doomsday Basic rulebook and the F5/E4 SSDs.

Here's some ancient and probably useless info:
Commanders FD4.21: Klink ships can fire 1/2 of their drone racks (round up) per turn. That would give the F5/E4 essentially A-racks.

[Kortez]

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can you help me find the part that mentions 2272-2273 for the K refit in the SFB material?

..as for the Casual Carriers..... that change *IS* for them. I would not leave them alone. They need fixing. That's the issue, here... a balance overhaul for carriers, casual or not.

-- Luc

EDIT: All master ship charts show Y175..

No..because my SFB material is stuffed away in offsite storage.  Going by Taldren's FYAs, that's when the K-refits come out.  That was my actual point of reference.  

I had all the SSDs as of 4/2002, but my wife threw EVERYTHING away, by accident.  I could cry.  Anyone know of a good place to order from to regain my status?
 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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[. .. I would however not follow that rule for PFs. It's going to be 2 PFs for a non PFT ship, and 4 for a Full PFT ship. It still kinda approximate to 2/3rds of SFb, but differently interpreted.


I hope this helps.
-- Luc  

Just keep in mind that some ships are considered Full PFT's but in Taldrens list they have only 2 PF's attached to them and should have a full load of 4.  Namely a few Lyrans, Lion DN, Wildcat BC, Hellcat BCH, etc.  These are listed in the SFB R section as being full PF tenders and not casual carriers(due to the repair boxes I guess)

On the 1st Gen X-Ships,  you kept the Mirak 1X did you keep all of the other wonder boats like the F-CCX and the K-DX or did you replace them with your subpar versions????


I'm kidding!!!   Everyone knows who had the worst 1X ships in the game.  

Yeah...the pirates.  As a Syndicate Pirate on RT3, I quit playing when the advanced era hit.  We couldn't compete really well in PvP before advanced era.  When the advanced era hit, it was from really bad to laughable.  Pirate X-ships were a joke.  You couldn't even go speed 31 in them charging weapons or with them charged.


As far as the empire races go, yeah...I know what you're getting at...heheh...though I have defeated F-CCXs fairly often in the D7X, it's an uphill fight and darned near impossible if certain things occur.


 

[jdmckinney]

In my experience, the module ship descriptions and/or SSDs themselves in Captain's Edition will specifically state rate of fire on the Klingon drone racks if they are limited in any way. While I do have some of the Klingon source material with me this week, it's in the luggage out in the car. Who knew I would need it at work?

[jdmckinney]

Kortez, that's a HUGE chunk of change you're talking about. I'd be doing much worse than crying. Think rubber room ...

I've bought almost all of my SFB stockpile in the past year (have some old Commander's Edition books and boxes stashed away). Aside from one trip to a local shop that was woefully understocked, I got it all from ADB's site (http://www.starfleetgames.com/). You can order directly from them by check or credit card, and I've never had a problem with getting everything in a timely manner. You have to pay for the shipping, but if you know what you want and don't need to flip through the books, it's definitely the easiest way to go. The only thing I wish they had was the old Module G1 Master Annex File in a new, revised edition including all the latest ships in the master ship chart. That I had to find in the store.

Good luck.

[jdmckinney]

Hmmm ...

After re-reading the above, I noticed two things. First, I meant I found the old G1 module in a store, not that a newer one was available.

Second, I just gave away the location of about 1/4 of my SFB stash to someone who is looking to rebuild their collection, not to mention the rest of the yahoos on this forum.

Thankfully I should be in the hotel with my modules safely in hand before anyone can track down what city and office building I'm in.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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I agree Nomad, the G Rack conversion does hurt.  Hence my suggestion for the E rack.  We used the E rack on AOTK and it seems it would be a natural addition to a 1stGen X ship.  It would seem that the Kzin would have increased loadouts and the ability to fire faster as new technology.   I would hope that this would be considered as a alternative.  The E rack has a firing rate of a C Rack, but carry's 10 more drones per rack, thus allowing us to use it in fire support against PF's and fighters.

And what Kortez is talking about is the Kzin feeling that we have had ever since the introduction of this game.  Every patch has screwed us in some way.  Even the last patch for EAW and the G Rack debate gave us more BPV on some of our ships.  Our BCH is just useless now, and it was always one of the worst BCH's in the game.  Our CCH can barely come even with a F-CLC.  Hence, most Mirak cannot compete in PvP 1 on 1 vs comparable ships and pilots.  After all the drone debates and cheese debates that have gone on for years, we are a little gunshy in that respect.  

Then our best ship that we have ever had, gets taken out of the shiplist and gutted, albeit it should be for balance.  You can see where we might get a little angry at this.

If anything, the Kzin would like to become less dependant on drones, not more.  We would rather have more power and energy weapons, so that we could stay in a fight on and even basis.  Ah, but then we become to Klingon like.    Which they dont like.

What the Kzin want is a ship capable of standing up to a D5, C7 or CLC or BCF in a 1 on 1 fight, without having to bring out the cheese.

As it stands now the Mirak only fly 10 ships no matter what list you make.

DF DD and CC in early
MDC,MDC+, MCC and CVA in mid
CVA through late

Thats it. And we only fly the MCC if its in a custom shiplist with the Dizzy points split.  We basically have no medium or heavy command cruiser that can compete on and equal basis.  Hence the backlash on the CCX.

 

I always though the Z-DWL was a pretty nice ship, eh?

I agree that dizzy hard points on several Mirak ships need to be split.  In terms of playability and power problems, the massed hardpoints seem to be a major problem.

I agree E-racks make sense as a 1st generation x weapon mount.  As you know, I wholly diagree with seeing them mounted on ships prior to that.  To me, it's not needed and just ain't right.  


When it comes to the viabilty of ships in today's dyna, I'm sure I can come up with a similarly small list of Klingon ships that are worthwhile.  I mean..there's only seven or eight that I consider worth flying and most of those a late-middle to late era boats.  We do have a larger shiplist to choose from, though...there's no doubt about it.


We discussed the ability to "compete" in the CL/NCA category when we hashed out the AOTK shiplist.  i'm not sure we want to go through that again, but we can if anyone wishes.  Did any of you guys even fly those new competitive ships?  I never saw anyone in them....think the one's I'm speaking of are the MCC and the NCC..both of which, at least initially, had everything the better D5s have, came out earlier and sport more drone racks.  I think we kiboshed the expanded dizzy arcs and left the 4 drones racks intact...but it's hard for me to remember for sure...that was a while ago, I guess...heheh.


 

[FireSoul]

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Hmmm ...

After re-reading the above, I noticed two things. First, I meant I found the old G1 module in a store, not that a newer one was available.

Second, I just gave away the location of about 1/4 of my SFB stash to someone who is looking to rebuild their collection, not to mention the rest of the yahoos on this forum.

Thankfully I should be in the hotel with my modules safely in hand before anyone can track down what city and office building I'm in.  

Next time you're in Ottawa, bring me a gift: J2 would be nice.

[Rod O'neal]

About the years for the Klink refits;
(R3.R1)Fleet "B" refits: Klingon ships built before the war started receiving the B refits in Y165. Nearly all of them had received them by Y168. The drone racks, previously limited to firing 1 drone per pair of racks per turn (FD4.3), were improved to allow each rack to fire each turn.
(R3.R2)"K" refits:Some ships received their K-refits as early as Y169 (prior to the dates on the master ship chart), and by Y175 all command ships (C9, C8, D7C, D5C, F5C) had received it, as perhaps 1/2 of the "direct combat" ships (standard warships carriers etc.) Virtually all direct combat ships had it by Y180. Some varients (minesweepers, scouts, drone ships, exploration ships, cargo transports, commando ships, PF tenders, and Penal ships) never received it.
 

[jdmckinney]

Luc, I've never been to Ottawa, and I seriously doubt a first visit anytime soon.

While I'd love to buy you a copy as a community reward for your hard work, I just dropped a few dimes on 5 Captain's Logs, so it will be a while before I order anything new (though Y1 is tempting me).

Most of J2 is on the heavy fighters (and their carriers) now available for most of the races. However, there are a few standard-fighter ships and escorts in there. There are also Andromedan "mobile weapon platforms" which are considered roughly equal to heavy fighters. When I'm back home this weekend, I may just have to send you a complete rundown of the contents.

Other fun SFB stuff:

For those who've checked out the cadet ships that come with EAW/OP in the SFB PDF, I just happened upon a site with more cadet ships plus the SSDs for the original group. The main page is directly linked as a cadet ship source from ADB's Star Fleet Rangers page. Check these out:

Cadet Cruisers
Alternate Cadet Cruisers

EDIT: Another useful SFB link is ADB's Product Update List, which tells you whether a product was revised at some point since it's first publication.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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<snip>

What do the Mirak want?

More drones?   Hell no.  We dont want another drone bombardment cruiser like the MDCX.

We want a medium command cruiser and a heavy command cruiser that is equal to its Federation, Klingon and other race counterparts which is not dependant on drones, or give us our drones and our Mirvs so we can overwhelm the opponent and have a chance in PvP.

<snip>

Are you sure?  heheh...


It shouldn't take much to make a Mirak command cruiser (CC) that can compete with that of the Klingons.  Ours aren't especially good.    i'm in favor of providing such to the Mirak in so far as it doesn't already exists (read..minor tweaks to the Z-CC/+).  We don't have a CCH.  I wouldn't mind having a D8 or D10, though.  


MCC is a pretty good ship.  It just needs those dizzy hard points split so you can offline a bank of dizzys like we Klingons often have to do.


 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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can you help me find the part that mentions 2272-2273 for the K refit in the SFB material?

..as for the Casual Carriers..... that change *IS* for them. I would not leave them alone. They need fixing. That's the issue, here... a balance overhaul for carriers, casual or not.

-- Luc

EDIT: All master ship charts show Y175..

No..because my SFB material is stuffed away in offsite storage.  Going by Taldren's FYAs, that's when the K-refits come out.  That was my actual point of reference.  

I had all the SSDs as of 4/2002, but my wife threw EVERYTHING away, by accident.  I could cry.  Anyone know of a good place to order from to regain my status?
 

My wife only stuffed them away where I will likely never get to them.  Same diff, but somehow not quite as bad, I guess.


I've been considering buying new stuff, so opposed am I to mucking around in the dusty, hot offsite storage.


 

[Fluf]

I agree Dogmatix, the CC is a fine ship..  Although if you notice, its not supposed to be that way.  SFB I believe had it carrying 2 A racks and the CC+ was the refit to C and B racks.  As it stands now, there is no difference in the CC and the CC+ in the stock shiplist.  My personal opinion is the CC+ should get a 2AMD6 for its refit.  Our CC is a good boat until 2270, then it becomes pretty much useless with the new fighters and other ships coming out between 2270 and 2273.

And yes the AOTK MCC was a great help, although we did kill the expanded Dizzy Arcs and took a Phaser off of it I think.  It was still no match for a D5 series boat.  Also the NCC that was added to the AOTK was used alot.  I know Cougar, Green, Jinn and Hades used that boat alot and it was a fine addition to the fleet.  It actually gave us a boat that could compete.

And I know you dont like the E rack and I agree with you, it should'nt be on any other ships, other then a 1st Gen X, but I do think it would be the logical progression that the Kzin would follow in their designing of a 1st Gen X ship.


For those of you who didnt see the NCC, it was basically modeled to a Fed NCC.  This ship was prefered over the CCH in most cases.

Designation: Z-NCC
BPV: 161
Crew: 49
Marines: 18
Shield 1: 34
Shield 2 & 6: 30
Shield 3 & 5: 26
Shield 4: 26
Total Shields: 172

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: C
Total Warp Power: 32
Impulse Power: 4
Aux Power: 3
Total Engine Power: 36
Battery: 5

Transporters: 5
Tractors: 3
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 3
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 3
2x Missle Rack B
2x Missle Rack E
8x Phaser 1
4x Phaser 3
2xADD12

This was the MCC in AOTK:

Designation: Z-MCC
BPV: 127
Crew: 43
Marines: 14
Shield 1: 36
Shield 2 & 6: 30
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 168

Movement Cost: 0.67
Turn Mode: B
Total Warp Power: 24
Impulse Power: 4
Aux Power: 5
Total Engine Power: 28
Battery: 3

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 2
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 3  (split into 2 Hardpoints FA arc - we wanted FAR/FAL to counter the D5L's FHR, FHL)
2x Missle Rack B
2x Missle Rack E
6x Phaser 1
2xAMD6

The refit for the CC+ in AOTK was taking one of the Dizzy Hardpoints and making it and FX arc, expanding shuttles to 4 and adding the E rack to replace the C rack.  It was never flown simply because flying a heavy cruiser in mid era with no AMD is a death blow.

Also notice the BCH+

Designation: Z-BCH+
BPV: 195
Crew: 64
Marines: 20
Shield 1: 36
Shield 2 & 6: 30
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 168

Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: E
Total Warp Power: 30
Impulse Power: 6
Aux Power: 6
Total Engine Power: 36
Battery: 7

Transporters: 5
Tractors: 3
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 4
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 4
3x Missle Rack B
2x Missle Rack E
9x Phaser 1
7x Phaser 3
2xADD12


2 more power.  Throw the G rack off.  Mirak hate G Racks!  E Rack added for more reloads to replace the C rack. This thing could almost fight a C7.  And I said almost!    It still lost most of the time.  Year released 2284.


 

[Kortez]

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Kortez, that's a HUGE chunk of change you're talking about. I'd be doing much worse than crying. Think rubber room ...

I've bought almost all of my SFB stockpile in the past year (have some old Commander's Edition books and boxes stashed away). Aside from one trip to a local shop that was woefully understocked, I got it all from ADB's site (http://www.starfleetgames.com/). You can order directly from them by check or credit card, and I've never had a problem with getting everything in a timely manner. You have to pay for the shipping, but if you know what you want and don't need to flip through the books, it's definitely the easiest way to go. The only thing I wish they had was the old Module G1 Master Annex File in a new, revised edition including all the latest ships in the master ship chart. That I had to find in the store.

Good luck.  

What's the sense of getting angry?  It won't bring back the materials, and it was an accident.  I am not happy, but you know, what else can I do?

I will check out that site.  Thanks, man.
 

[Kortez]

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can you help me find the part that mentions 2272-2273 for the K refit in the SFB material?

..as for the Casual Carriers..... that change *IS* for them. I would not leave them alone. They need fixing. That's the issue, here... a balance overhaul for carriers, casual or not.

-- Luc

EDIT: All master ship charts show Y175..

No..because my SFB material is stuffed away in offsite storage.  Going by Taldren's FYAs, that's when the K-refits come out.  That was my actual point of reference.  

I had all the SSDs as of 4/2002, but my wife threw EVERYTHING away, by accident.  I could cry.  Anyone know of a good place to order from to regain my status?
 

My wife only stuffed them away where I will likely never get to them.  Same diff, but somehow not quite as bad, I guess.


I've been considering buying new stuff, so opposed am I to mucking around in the dusty, hot offsite storage.


 

No, I would retrieve them if I could.