Topic: Okay, Karnak...out with it.

[FatherTed]

 

Quote:
 So you know that I must know you know me knowing full well that I know you know this thread is just flame bait.

-a fog fills the room-Whooooa man, this is some heavy %$#@.

*munch* *munch* *munch*    

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:

Quote:

And Dizzy...STFU...your comments thus far have been inaccurate and thus useless.  Big surprise!  

Oh No!!!

Watch out Doggy,  I said that Dizzy, and look what it started.....;)  

No worries, Jeffy.  I've never had any trouble debating any topic with Dizzy.  

[Kroma_BaSyl]

Quote:
This began and continues to be an honest attempt to get to the root of a problem in a place and manner that I find wholly appropriate.

Ok here goes....Karnak is pissed that you guys (SFC2.net, especially J'inn "the Bastard") maliciously sabotaged his AOTK account, and it has been building on every perceived insult and slight since.

[Dizzy]

Quote:
What a laffer, Dizz!  

Do me a favor and don't tell me what I know, okay?  


That people "pulled up chairs" and "got their marshmallows out" is none of my doing or concern.  I began this thread in a public place because SFC2.NET's name and it's people are being publically dragged through the mud.  I see not reason why that cannot be discussed publicly with the most frequent perpetrator of that act.  I did say rational debate, did I not?  I mean't what I said.  This began and continues to be an honest attempt to get to the root of a problem in a place and manner that I find wholly appropriate.  You may disagree, and that's quite fine with me.

See Dizz...I'm not anything like you.  I can have a rational debate that doesn't even begin to turn into a flamefest.  I don't need "STFUs" and belligerent tactics to have a useful discussion and make my points.    I used one on you in obvious jest.

I think you're a fun and even funny guy...but don't ever profess to tell me what I know, what i'm going to do or what I can or cannot do, eh?



...and the next time I ask you for anything will be the first time, my friend.
 

You had better think this through, dogmatix... I take your tone as standoffish comedy. A rare form of funny that I don't take a liking to. You see, my long trusted friend, I do know what you are going to say... I will be happy to remind you of this after you post it.

And you have asked of me many times before... most recently to stfu...

Seriously tho... If I may address Karnaks concern from my own experience and dealings with him... is that he is a capable server admin and mission coder who invests time and energy into this community asking nothing in return. I feel, as he may as well, that the other and older sfc2.net admins are a tight nit group that doesnt take lightly to newcommers... Hell, I dont even think BBJ returned my PM to him when SG3 popped into my head so I can only imagine that Karnak has had the same standoffish approach from all the sfc2.net admins... I have asked several times b4 to get someone to do the ship names... It would be a very nice addition to the game... but noone has offered.

And to be quite honest with you, dog, It is my experience that the sfc2.net team hasnt done much for me. Is this in the interest of the community not to help a server admin to bring a worthy server to the D2? Tell you what... as much as Tracey and I have talked about her doing things for SG3, I have received zero contribution from her, or anyone else for that matter, save a few PM replys about server settings and such. I cant fault Tracey, she was the only sfc2.net admin willing to take it upon herself to help me with mission scripting, even tho she hasnt helped yet... but i sense her willingness, and lets not forget she contributes enormously to this community... but where is everone else?

Karnak is the ONLY admin who is helping me with SG3. So far... till this BS thread, I havent bitched about it or complained. But ya know what... since you profess this is the place to talk about it... Lets.

Know what tho? I am thankful there are still ppl playing this game. Thats enough for me to tap my fingers to the bone on this keyboard trying to bring you ppl a stellar D2 experience and going through 3 mice clickers in the process...

Lets break this down into an emotional thingy... Lets get all mushy here... Whenever someone bashes me... it totally takes the wind out of my sails. I aint doing this just for me. If I made a list of all the Dizzy haters and ppl who have slighted me since my SG3 announcement... there would only be 10 ppl left mb. How you think that makes me feel when I see them enjoying my server? It makes me glad and sad. Glad they are having a good time and sad cuz all the [censored] I took from them. Where is the appreciation? Where is the love? Where is the caring and tenderness?

WTF am I talking about? Hrmm... I need to go take my medication... excuse me...  

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I feel obliged to speak up at this point with an idea.

But first a few stories:

I started a thread on the old forums desperately
trying to get a D2 server to run. The thread ran
for two months - nobody knew the solution.
DarkElf offered to help. (no butt kissing required) He VNC'd my server
and started it no problem (I think it was Christmas day too!)
The problem was: you cannot start the EAW20346 D2 server from the command
line or the security check fails, you must double click the executeable in
the windows explorer.

When I started a website I e-mailed BBJ to ask if I could
use their java webmap applet. He sent me everything he
could to help - no problem, no butt kissing required, I just
asked nicely. The intention was to update it to sql, but I got
sidelined by my progress with my php scripts. (A new java
SQL webmap would still be great and may yet happen...)

When Karnak was working on his map for the ISC invasion
he asked me if he could use my php-SQL webmap for his
website. I said sure - no problem. (I got to debug my scripts
on another webserver as well as test additional functions
as a bonus...) And you know what? I'll be damned if I can find
a hickey anywhere on my hiney!

The idea is that we need to make it clear to each other when we could use a little help. Just ask!
If people are busy they'll help when they can.
I agree with Goose that communication seems to be mostly the problem.
I also think that a little understanding is in order, and we should remind ourselves
that people can be very occupied with real life issues and not necessarily
have time to give the boards and the game as much attention as they might like.


<rajnsaj enters the room, sits down inconspicuously in the back,
and when his turn comes, stands up and says,
Hi, My name's rajnsaj and I'm a D2 admin...>
   

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:

Lets break this down into an emotional thingy... Lets get all mushy here... Whenever someone bashes me... it totally takes the wind out of my sails. I aint doing this just for me. If I made a list of all the Dizzy haters and ppl who have slighted me since my SG3 announcement... there would only be 10 ppl left mb. How you think that makes me feel when I see them enjoying my server? It makes me glad and sad. Glad they are having a good time and sad cuz all the [censored] I took from them. Where is the appreciation? Where is the love? Where is the caring and tenderness?

WTF am I talking about? Hrmm... I need to go take my medication... excuse me...  

And you think anyone on the SFC2.NET admin team is any different?  If you do, then there's clearly a fundamental breakdown in your perception of reality, my most honored and esteemed friend.


Proving my intention is to keep this flame free, I'll address none of your personal remakrs about me.  


In regards to Karnak:

I see wer'e both in agreement that he is a capable server admin and mission coder.  I have recently praised his "fleet action" mission as one of the funnest, toughest furballs I've ever experienced vs. the AI.  I agree that he invests a lot of time and effort into this community and asks nothing in return.  Don't we all?

Can you name anything any single CW/SFC2.NET admin has asked for other than patience, understanding and to have a good time?  I'm not nearly the hardest working member of the team, but the administration of those SFC2.NET fora does take time.  Sometimes a LOT of time.  I have a wife, kid, a tough job and bills to pay.  Before those fora went up, I was willing to put them up myself and pay for it in an effort to cushion blow from the loss of our beloved StarFleetComms.


There are similar stories amongst every member of the SFC2.NET admin team.  CW started during ArticFires in and answer to some of the most annoying problems of the day...shiploss bug and outlaw servers.  Rather that whine and leave, BBJones and SkullnBonez decided to try and do somthing about it.  What grew from that is arguably the best series of campaign servers this community has ever seen.  Indeed, you could argue that in recent times, it's quite possible that SFC2.NET didn't exist, there wouldn't be much going on in the dyna.   Can you name one time that BBJones and Bonez has publicly attacked anyone or demanded anything?  Can you name any single server admin who has flouted a single responsbility or shirked any duty out of carelessness or malice?  When we fail it's because we're human and have lives outside of the game that often must take precedence.  As a father, I'm sure you can understand that.

Many of us has spent our own money, not just time and effort, to provide the community the services that is has provided.  No one has spent more of his own money than BBJones.  I don't see many people praising him for that nor do I see him taking any credit for his efforts.  I do see people whinging about unanswered PMs.

The sheer weight of the time, money, and effort put into this community by CW/SFC2.NET ought to free itself from this ill-will and petty complaints.  The record ought to stand for itself.  It clearly doesn't with some people though.  I suggest the failing is not with the team, but with those members of this community.

I rarely hear from or talk to BBJones or Bonez anymore.  I have no doubt that it I PMed BBJone, I probably either wouldn't get  a reply or it would be slow in coming.  You know what?  I wouldn't care and I damn sure wouldn't hold it against him.  Maybe that's just me, though.  I used to chat with them all the time...when they had more time and so did I.  That has all changed.


So...getting back to Karnak and stipulating that he does good work for this community.  How should one characterize his public and perhaps selfish attacks on the SFC2.NET team?  Wholly justified and correct or is there a complete lack of understanding or empathy on his part for the plight of anyone but himself?

If someone royally fecked up my account on any server and didn't get around to fixing it as quickly as I would have hoped, do you think I'd throw a tantrum and blast them and anyone like them?  I'll tell you...know I wouldn't.  I be patient and do my best to endeavor to persevere.  It that didn't work for me, I'd probably just go amuse myself somewhere else.  At the end of the day, I'd know that inaction had nothing to do with carelessness, incompentance or malice.  It just was what it was.


You asked for help from the SF2.NET admin team and didn't get it?    In one or a few cases, someone can't help for whatever reason and we're taken to task for that?  We donate our time, effort and money (as do many who are not members of the team, of course).  We don't OWE anyone anything.  To donate is different from doing something because you OWE.  No one owes you ore anyone else help.  It is given when the ability exists to give it.


In regards to your campaign:

Why do you think anyone is duty bound to help you with your campaign?  It's your baby.  If you ask for help and get it or people offer it and give it, that's fine.  No one owes you squat and our contributions and reputations are not lessened because we cannot give the help.  Of course it's in the interests of any community when members of that community help each other.  That doesn't necessarily mean that any help is owed or that any time is available on the part of prospective "helpers" to help.

I fully intended to do what I could to help when you approached me at the onset, but real life invaded and I was thoroughly unable to, as it turns out.  Now that I have a little time, things have progressed far enough along that I really don't feel like I can interject myself into the process due to a lack of history with the project.  I did IMMEDIATELY fill your forum request and answer or comment on anything you asked me too, though.  I see that was well appreciated since now you give zero credit to me or anyone else on the SFC2.NET team.  I respectfully submit to you that I am not the one with any problem where this is concerned.



One last comment about my feelings regarding the CW/SFC2.NET organization.  Clearly there is a sentiment that we're here for ourselves and our own aggrandizement.  Sentiment also seems to exist that we somehow think we're superior to everyone else.  To this, I can't say much of anything other than in my humble opinion, deep down, as a reasonable, honest and caring human being and member of this community, that is not true.  

The rest is up for the community to decide.  Speak up or don't.  Here's your chance.  I'm sure it's all just "BS' in a "BS thread," though.  So maybe don't waste your time.  





 

[Mog]

Dizzy, to be honest, from what I saw in the forum you set up for SG3 development, it looked to me like you had just about everything under control, hence I haven't gotten too involved with it. As you may have been able to tell from some recent posts of mine here, I've been kind of pondering if it's time to move on from this game or not. There are days when I simply cannot be bothered to take an interest, and there are other days when the enthusiasm and passion for this game that I have had from when I first discovered the series carry me onwards. I'm still here, nowadays mostly because of the friends I have made.

Anyway, the above is to illustrate that we all have lives beyond the game. Tracey volunteered to help you with missions. Then she decided that, to do that, her university workload would suffer. As much as she, and everyone else loves the game, why be like me and waste her time at university by recreational activities? Tracey would be far, far better off concentrating on her university work. Trust me -Ii'm a failed university student, who frittered away 3 years that should have been spent both studying and socialising, by just concentrating on socialising. Instead of a lucrative and interesting career, I ended up doing menial work, which hardly does my education and intelligence justice. Do not wish that on anyone.

As for Karnak, I look at what Kroma typed and I can see why he posted that. Ever since AOTK, Karnak has been getting digs in at them. It does look like he has a grudge, and takes every opportunity to grind that axe on here, and on their forum too. Then he accuses them of trying to inflame. You sure you ain't a politician Karnak ?

It's been said before and obviously needs saying again. Let's stop arguing, dissing each other and fighting each other on the forum and move the fighting to the battlefield.

[Dizzy]

I cant believe I read your entire post as tired as I am... BUT... I cant find that I disagree with anything you said cept me thinking I am owed something from someone. Never said that. Never thought that.

You wanted honesty.. I gave it to you. Let me sum it up... There is an elitest attitude amongst the sfc2.net admins that interfere with the peacful relationships that tjhis community is capable of having. This thread being an example.

As much as I disagree and have ill feelings toward the sfcx team, I have to hand it to them that they have a whole lot more class than to attack erach other and publicly talk about it. I dont think I am worthy of them, in fact I know I am not. What does that tell you? Prolly nothing.

Lets drop it Dog. This thread sucks.

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

Yowtch, son of a biscuit eater, these last  blasts singed my dang fur and over-toasted my Campfire's! Nothin' left of them but carbon.

Oh well, carbon ain't bad

::munch, crunch, munch::

[Dizzy]

Ya Mog... lets drop the bickering and just commit to HELP each other.

And Mog, just sit back and relax. You are completely right that I have SG3 under total control. I could use help with shipnames, but that is a perk to the game. Everything else I have handled.

And Dog, you get quite defensive toward tracey. She is a big girl and can defend herself. Yes, she made a commitment to her studies, but has since been unbelievably active on the boards and in the campaigns. You really dont know what you are talking about concerning the private conversations the 2 of us have had nor are privy to the pictures we have exchanged . I already said I cant fault her. So dont twist that around, sure looked like you had some kinda Dr. Evil in there somewhere...  So just drop the whole issue.

I'd be hovering over that delete thread button I were you...

[Fluf]

Well I was going to stay out of this, but oh well cant miss a good flamefest.  Although Im not a member of the SFC2.net admin team, I am a Race Moderator for the SFC2.net organization and have also been a Server Moderatior in various OP projects.  I have never found the SFC2.net Admin team to be nothing but helpful whenever they can.   LB3 was originally going to be a SFC3 server (which is still in the making).  However when I saw the new patch for OP come out, I immediately downloaded the server kit and decided to do an OP campaign so that we could check out the patch and play with the fixes.
Once I saw that the SFCX team had Reclamation going and had a good handle on this already, I decided to hold off on putting a server up.  However when DOE ended and after talking with Karnak and seeing that SG3 was going to be delayed at least 2 weeks, and also seeing TraceyG's thread requesting DarkElf get some kind of server up in the interim, I decided to put LB3 on EAW.  

My original intentions were just to put this on the KOTH Server.  However, Kortez is in the middle of moving and ther server could not be used.  I throw the campaign together in 72 hours and simply post a thread saying I need a server to put the campaign on.  Within hours, I have both Rajnsaj and the SFC2.net team saying they would be willing to host it.  We decided to go with the SFC2.net/XenoCorp server in order to hold the amount of players that we expected would come.  DarkElf put the campaign up for me and off we go.  All this without kissing anybodies behind!  TraceyG has been taking time out from her studies to help correct problems we have had in settings, and the missions, and the server without me asking one thing of her.

I was glad to work with Karnak and put his missions in LB3 for testing.  The missions are enjoyable I was hoping to see more of them.  We found some bugs in them, and I was hoping that he found them and we could swap them out with a new download.  I was quite dismayed to see his post about his missions and LB3.  Karnaks issues with the SFC2.net team do go back to AOTK and his account problems.  I was in the middle of alot of this and am aware of the situation that occured on AOTK.  During AOTK, BBJ was quite busy with real life, and TraceyG was just learning the server, DB editing and such from Skull and BBJ.  We had several accounts bugged during AOTK, and all of them were being handled as well as possible with the time allowed.  Karnak felt slighted because he was the ISC ARM at the time, and a few Federation accounts got fixed before his was.  This was in no way any favoritism on the SFC2.net admins, (which at the time TraceyG was not even and admin, she was just helping BBJ because of his time constraints).  It was a matter of TraceyG learning to adjust the DB and learn the system.  Karnak said he was quitting, so his account was not adjusted then.  Then he returned and when he contacted Jinn about the matter, it was finally fixed.  But his resentment to the SFC2.net team has grown since that time.  

Karnak, I suggest you get over your resentment of the SFC2.net team.  Ego's are not needed here.  Everyone can contribute to this community, and no one stands above another here.  You are a very talented programer, and your skills are needed to make this game enjoyable.  I suggest you get over any past problems with anyone at SFC2.net and work to patch up these relationships.  I would really like to have your updated missions put in the next download for LB3, as the players really enjoy them, and you need the testing done in a large playerbase like this.  Dave has redone his and TraceyG is working on hers.  Dont get yours left out because of all this BS.

Dizzy, TraceyG has been a little more active this week because she has some time off this week from her studies.  That is the only reason she has been on more this week.  And I cant thank her enough for all the time she has put into helping me straighten out LB3, which was crashing due to my stupid settings. (its always MY FAULT).  She is working on some bugs we found in her missions last night and I hope she finds them with the time she has this week.  She could be taking some time away from all this mess, but instead chooses to devote most of her free time to the people of this community.  I cant thank her enough.  As far as SG3 goes, I hope it is a rousing success, and I think with will be, if we can all pull together here, get these petty squables and egos put away and get these mission packs debugged and playable for everyones enjoyment.

[Mog]

Good post Fluffy

All of us need to realise that we owe thanks to EVERYONE who contributes good things to the community, regardless of whether they are part of an organisation or not. Criticism is fine and welcomed, as long as it's politely posted, it helps the community a lot if kept that way. We have made good strides recently getting along together. Let's keep that going.

Kroma, please don't do a cheerleader dance while I'm orating *shudder*

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
Ya Mog... lets drop the bickering and just commit to HELP each other.

And Mog, just sit back and relax. You are completely right that I have SG3 under total control. I could use help with shipnames, but that is a perk to the game. Everything else I have handled.

And Dog, you get quite defensive toward tracey. She is a big girl and can defend herself. Yes, she made a commitment to her studies, but has since been unbelievably active on the boards and in the campaigns. You really dont know what you are talking about concerning the private conversations the 2 of us have had nor are privy to the pictures we have exchanged . I already said I cant fault her. So dont twist that around, sure looked like you had some kinda Dr. Evil in there somewhere...  So just drop the whole issue.

I'd be hovering over that delete thread button I were you...  

<----<<< Tries to remember when I have ever specifically defended TraceyG or when I ever said I knew (or cared) about anything going on between you two.  Oh yeah...that's right...never.    Therefore, there's been no twisitng on my part excepting the twisting of the neck of my Dizzy Doll.  Did that hurt?  


Reading my posts and comprehending them would seem to be two different things, but I do appreciate your giving it a try.  


Three final comments and then I'll drop the whole thing, if permitted.

1.  If the SFC2.NET team is elitist about anything that goes on in this community, we really must be a sad, sorry bunch of people.  However, I think the notion that we are elitist is not supported by the vast preponderance of the evidence.  Your opinion is that we act this way and I guess I'll just have to accept that from you.  Who's going to change your mind?

2.  Thanks Mog and Fluf for the comments.  You're both absolutely right.

3.  You would be hovering over the delete thread button if you were me, huh?    Well, I'm not in the habit of deleting threads in which I don't regret anything i've said.  Even if I did regret anything I said, I'd leave the thread there and apologize.  I'll leave forum moderation to the forum moderators.


kthxbye  


 

[Scipio_66]

Quote:
The DIzzy hyperbolizes:
Karnak is the ONLY admin who is helping me with SG3.

<sniffle>  I'm hurt.  I'm wounded.  You said you loved me.  You said, "thanks for your help."  How could you take me so for granted?

< S'Cipio runs to hide under the bed, crying like a heartbroken schoolgirl >

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WTF am I talking about? Hrmm... I need to go take my medication... excuse me...  

Oh, OK.  That explains it.  Never mind.

-S'Cipio (feeling better)

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

::standing and applauding loudly and profusely::

 Well said Fluf, well said!

 Hey Fluf, guess what? This is the first time it really isn't your fault. Way to go, bro!    

[Green]

Quote:
The rest is up for the community to decide. Speak up or don't. Here's your chance. I'm sure it's all just "BS' in a "BS thread," though. So maybe don't waste your time.  

I agree with Fluf ... on all points.  

There are many people who play who do what they can to help.  It does come and go depending on their time and skills.  As one of the unwashed masses of skilless participants (in both the game and code) ... I appreciate what everyone does to allow us to continue gaming.

[Cleaven]

For what it's worth I think a lot of people consider themselves a part of the extended SFC2.net thing, and when somebody goes making offensive comments about its senior citizens we expect to see things put right. I think that has now happened, or at least the interloper has been seen off.

And it was with the expectation of this outcome that the masses came and made their presence known i.e. to bear witness (and to see if the guy with the empty gun comes out alive).  

[Cocomoe]

  Well you got one dude.  

[Dizzy]

Quote:
  Well you got one dude.    

wHAT? ARE U TALKING ABOUT? kARNAK? OOPS caps.

Are you saying this in response to cleavens post about dogmatix getting rid of the interloper?

You better not be.

Dogmatix, this thread is highly abusive. I officialy protest.

I havent heard from Karnak since this thread was put up. I'd suggest you stop being the damned relationship police and let him have his say. Its a damn free country and if he want to tell someone to kiss his ass, he has a right to. But when ppl start moving toward expelling a player or even suggesting that, then it has gone too far.

Dog, if Karnak doesnt come back, I hold you responsible and as such have to give serious thought as to wether I should leave as well. I'm sure you'd be happier seeing us both go...

[Cleaven]

Ah, "seen off" just means that the insults stopped (or didn't continue for a time). Like if somebody throws a rock on your roof and you go outside and yell "What do you want to do that for?" and nobody appears to be about and they don't throw any more rocks for the rest of the night. Doesn't imply permanency of any sort, but it would be nice if people didn't throw rocks at least not while the rest of the neighbouhood is out on their front lawns sitting in their deck chairs drinking beer and eating all sorts of munchies (can't account for some people's tastes).