Topic: Reclamation: 2275 is here.  (Read 10494 times)

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jdmckinney

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2003, 01:00:18 pm »
Thanks for the feedback -- it's the only way we can learn to make campaigns people actually will enjoy.

First, the numbers showing up for Reclamation are certainly not what we'd hoped for, but it's going to take time to rebuild the OP player base. A lot of players will never come back, and the number of potential "new" players for OP is something approaching zero, I'd guess. With even EAW campaigns unable to draw more than 20-30 players consistently, it's no wonder Reclamation peaked at about 8-10 players. Plus, the numbers will trend whichever way the wind is blowing. If there are low player numbers, then they will generally get lower simply because it's not that much fun to play against the AI all the time and never see another player to attack/defend against. If the player numbers are decent, then more will be drawn in by the action.

What we probably need to do with OP is start small and build up. That's what we wanted to try to do with Reclamation. I think the reasons it is not working quite as well as we wanted are simple matters of translation. While I was scrambling to put together the campaign settings based on the forum polls and the SFCX crew's stated preferences, storyline, and map, I started with cheaper ships, better shipyard production, and more affordable supplies. Then, with the old lessons from when OP and the D2 in general were booming, I found myself increasing prices. Shipyard production went down to fit the campaign story and (necessarily) map economy. At the same time, I wanted to take advantage of FireSoul's fine shiplist without restricting too many ships, since more ships is what draws many people to it in the first place. The end result is a shipyard production that makes sense for a limited scale campaign, but doesn't cycle often enough or offer the "right" kind of ships all the time.

Meanwhile, supplies seemed reasonable to start based on being able to outfit a K-F5C or Z-DD with medium drones and full supplies. What I didn't take into account was that as players got larger ships, they would have to spend more on those supplies to the point where they could not make enough prestige to pay for it all without running boring "gimme" missions. The neutral coop problems only made this worse, since players couldn't help each other out unless they didn't care about taking hexes. I think if we had consistently working neutral coop, a lot of the cost issues would work themselves out as players paired up to get out of their starting ships.

I reacted to people's complaints about starter ships being too hard to fly by bumping them up to CL/CW sizes, but the true problem wasn't the size of the starter ship but the supplies and shipyard production. So, looking back I'd probably change my approach to supplies and production.

Next, the map uses 20 DV hexes as the norm and goes up from there. In the days of a dozen nutters and 30 part-time players, these would have been cake. Today, however, we have to start lower. Perhaps changing the DV effect per mission from 1 to 3 or even 5 would help in the interim, but I don't see the value in constantly changing settings on a short-run server. It only confuses and annoys people.

Finally, we wanted this to be a fairly "light" campaign, to sort of test the waters and get people used to OP again. So, we didn't spam the boards and lobby for people to play. The laid-back approach just doesn't work when you've got a set of campaign settings built with the old player-base thinking.

To me this is all a learning experience -- a chance to push the improved OP D2 to its limits and find out what does and doesn't work so we make better games in the future. With that in mind, we've definitely learned some things. Next time we offer up an organized, VC-oriented campaign, we'll be able to put these lessons to good use.

KBF-Dogmatix

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2003, 01:04:54 pm »
This is part of what I mean, Indy.

This (often losing PP, even when you overcome very tough odds and WIN) is what happens.  Is this what we want to happen?  If so, why?  

It it appeals to a few and satisfying those few is what is wished, then fine.  We all will cast our vote with our playing time.  

It seems to me that the the first relatively serious server using FireSoul's beautiful project, in a way,  is cutting off its nose despite its face.



BTW..what is the deal with the nearly barren shipyards, anyway?  I usually see no more than three ships.  Always seems to be some sort of tug and a couple of frigates.  As I said before...I guess it doesn't matter that jack is hard to come by, because there jack to buy...heheh.


 

jdmckinney

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2003, 01:18:13 pm »
Dogmatix, the shipyards are producing only a couple of ships because of the low starting territory and economy relative to what a full galaxy map would have. It's also clearing ships at each economy run so there's no overlap where the old ships stick around when the new ones come in.

Perhaps putting back in more staying power for the ships produced would help. Though we don't need 10 new ships every turn, it would probably help to see a CW you can't yet afford stick around for a couple hours until you can.

jdmckinney

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2003, 01:22:25 pm »
Oh, and as far as getting better ships in the yard goes, I've seen Lyran BCPs and DNs. That's because the Lyrans built up their economy. None of the other races that started with just 7 hexes have taken more than about 2 hexes, so their yards are going to have smaller ships more often based on that economy.

What I've learned is that we CAN have a meaningful economy/shipyard production that doesn't just hand out every plum ship like candy, but until we get more players and more territory being taken, it will always look as if the yards are woefully under-producing.

Mog

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2003, 01:24:20 pm »
Doggy, the barren shipyards (if you read the server blurb ) represents the fact that this region of space is away from the main empires - therefore supplies and ships slowly trickle to this new front.

While I can see these issues putting people off (personally I've struggled in the Courier mission, done ok in the Fleet Action, and never turn a Data Recovery down), it still seems to me that EAW is favoured by the majority of remaining players. I want to be proven wrong on this. At least we now know that OP D2 works as well as EAW D2 - no need to play pirate for a while to boost DVs anymore.

Maybe the next OP server we put out may be an Operation to bring Unity to the D2?

FireSoul

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2003, 01:44:18 pm »
Quote:

Oh, and as far as getting better ships in the yard goes, I've seen Lyran BCPs and DNs. That's because the Lyrans built up their economy. None of the other races that started with just 7 hexes have taken more than about 2 hexes, so their yards are going to have smaller ships more often based on that economy.
 




The Feds had 9.. but didn't reinforce them..
I 'liberated' the two with asteroids (and thus some worthwhile economy) because I was bored.

KBF-Dogmatix

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2003, 01:50:25 pm »
Quote:

Oh, and as far as getting better ships in the yard goes, I've seen Lyran BCPs and DNs. That's because the Lyrans built up their economy. None of the other races that started with just 7 hexes have taken more than about 2 hexes, so their yards are going to have smaller ships more often based on that economy.

What I've learned is that we CAN have a meaningful economy/shipyard production that doesn't just hand out every plum ship like candy, but until we get more players and more territory being taken, it will always look as if the yards are woefully under-producing.  





Gotcha.  I knew things could work this way.  I just didn't know for a fact that this was what was at work here.  Now I do.


Failure to read the server description past what files were needed is my own fault, of course.


 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by KBF-Dogmatix »

KBF-Dogmatix

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2003, 02:03:27 pm »
Quote:

Doggy, the barren shipyards (if you read the server blurb ) represents the fact that this region of space is away from the main empires - therefore supplies and ships slowly trickle to this new front.

While I can see these issues putting people off (personally I've struggled in the Courier mission, done ok in the Fleet Action, and never turn a Data Recovery down), it still seems to me that EAW is favoured by the majority of remaining players. I want to be proven wrong on this. At least we now know that OP D2 works as well as EAW D2 - no need to play pirate for a while to boost DVs anymore.

Maybe the next OP server we put out may be an Operation to bring Unity to the D2?  





Missions are no issue if the supply costs are reasonable...case in point, LB3.


Yes...more people own EAW than own OP.  That will account for some of the disparity in player populations.  For those of us that do own both, I'm guessing we're playing LB3 more regulary because of the supply costs, even though OP is the more attractive product and Reclamation is using FireSoul's wonderful shiplist.

I can be sure of one fact...and that is the fact that I am personally playing on EAW in the LB3 server because I do not like the supply costs on Reclamation.  To the extent that anyone cares, I thought I'd offer up that constructive criticism.  


Who is playing on Reclamation?  I know I am (on a very limited basis), Mace is (probably also a very limited basis), FireSoul, Castrin, Nomad, Indy and you.  Are there others?  Like I said...it's either me myself or 2-4 others.  I know more people own OP than that.  I think most of the people I see on LB3 own OP.


Is it the prevailing opinion of the SFCX crew that it's just a matter of EAW being more popular?  Like I said...all things being equal, OP is the better product because it has more.


 

jimmi7769

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2003, 02:48:47 pm »
I'm playing on Reclamation in a very limited form.  I love the expanded shiplist and the better missions(on both servers), but the server settings are what got me down.  The high supply cost and the fact the I was one of about 2 Klinks on there at any one time and usually I was the only one there.  Beating my head againt a 40 DV planet hex in an F5D(while doable) isvery very boring....only 30 more missions and it's mine!!!  That along with the empty shipyard that goes with the poor economy and I usually got frustrated and headed over to EAW to find 5 or more fellow Klingons slugging it out with the other 20 or so people.

I'm one to say that I would wholeheartedly switch to OP and never play EAW again if everyone else would come to.  I was just at Electronics boutique in town and saw 3 copies of OP on the bargain shelf.  There is no reason to stay with EAW as long as OP's  Dyna works as well as EAW's.  Hell, you can but copies off the infogrames website for $5 just buy it and shut up.  I think what is going to have to happen is the server admins are going to have to switch to OP and then the players would have to follow or play on the speed 10 Quake(I mean Battlezone) server.

Karnak

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2003, 02:54:14 pm »
Quote:

I'm playing on Reclamation in a very limited form.  I love the expanded shiplist and the better missions(on both servers), but the server settings are what got me down.  The high supply cost and the fact the I was one of about 2 Klinks on there at any one time and usually I was the only one there.  Beating my head againt a 40 DV planet hex in an F5D(while doable) isvery very boring....only 30 more missions and it's mine!!!  That along with the empty shipyard that goes with the poor economy and I usually got frustrated and headed over to EAW to find 5 or more fellow Klingons slugging it out with the other 20 or so people.

I'm one to say that I would wholeheartedly switch to OP and never play EAW again if everyone else would come to.  I was just at Electronics boutique in town and saw 3 copies of OP on the bargain shelf.  There is no reason to stay with EAW as long as OP's  Dyna works as well as EAW's.  Hell, you can but copies off the infogrames website for $5 just buy it and shut up.  I think what is going to have to happen is the server admins are going to have to switch to OP and then the players would have to follow or play on the speed 10 Quake(I mean Battlezone) server.  




I'll need to see a full-blown OP AoTK-sized campaign successfully run with the same quality of EAW Dyna before I consider moving any server to OP or write any mission scripts for OP.  

FPF_TraceyG

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2003, 03:39:07 pm »
As soon as I get the time, I'll be compiling all the missions I write for OP as well. I've only just acquired OP recently, although, ironically, I've had the OP Scripting API for quite some time... lol!!

KBF-Dogmatix

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2003, 03:57:19 pm »
Quote:

<snip>

I'm one to say that I would wholeheartedly switch to OP and never play EAW again if everyone else would come to.  I was just at Electronics boutique in town and saw 3 copies of OP on the bargain shelf.  There is no reason to stay with EAW as long as OP's  Dyna works as well as EAW's.  Hell, you can but copies off the infogrames website for $5 just buy it and shut up.  I think what is going to have to happen is the server admins are going to have to switch to OP and then the players would have to follow or play on the speed 10 Quake(I mean Battlezone) server.  





I'm with you there.  I actually prefer OP's shiplist and stock mission pack over EAW.  With FireSoul's shiplist and Dave's mission packs, it's even better.  The big problem with OP has always been the dyna map and how it works (or doesn't).  If that is made to work as well as the EAW dyna does (granted IT isn't perfect, either), then I'd be advocating a community-wide swtich to OP.  There have been some GREAT OP campaigns despite the problems caused by the cartel map.  None has quite surpassed the very best EAW campaigns, in my humble opinion, but I think the potential to do so is there.


Hell, I'd scout out and buy up bargain rack copies of OP and help subsidise the the move to OP, if everything gets worked out.


I have no bias against OP aside from the well-known map interaction issues.


If LB3 had the same supply costs as Reclamation does, I'd probably play on Reclamation more.  I wanna play with that shiplist in a dyna setting.  I don't do single-player campaignsin SFC.  I haven't since SFC1.


 

jimmi7769

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2003, 04:19:45 pm »
Quote:

I'll need to see a full-blown OP AoTK-sized campaign successfully run with the same quality of EAW Dyna before I consider moving any server to OP or write any mission scripts for OP.  




Catch 22

Karnak

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2003, 04:31:17 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I'll need to see a full-blown OP AoTK-sized campaign successfully run with the same quality of EAW Dyna before I consider moving any server to OP or write any mission scripts for OP.  




Catch 22  




LOL. Ok, let's say a 4-6 week campaign, then, without anymore dyna bugs found than on an EAW dyna.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Karnak »

jdmckinney

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2003, 04:55:54 pm »
When will this hypothetical big OP campaign happen? When SFCX broached the topic of "we finally have a working OP D2 and who wants to play what kind of campaign?" all we got was schedules shoved in our faces and told to wait our turn, even though we didn't actually have a campaign plan or design but were just trying to get a read on what people wanted.

Well, we have pretty much decided we don't want to do long-term, big-map campaigns because we just don't have the space in between everyone else to do such things. Instead, we are trying to build a model where smaller-map theatres of war are run, some simultaneously, to approximate a General War-scope campaign with multiple fronts. There are a lot of advantages to this approach. For one thing, players for alliance/coalition can be concentrated into fewer empires for any given ToW, meaning no more 2-player empires for the rest to pick on or ignore. For another, DB corruptions and long-term server health become less of an issue (last I knew, OP doesn't have SQL yet) when you run weekend, 1-week, 2-week minicampaigns.

Now (and by now I mean start planning for something this summer) may be a prime time to use this model as a cross-admin cooperative campaign, with both EAW and OP chapters and theatres running, so as not to leave one group or the other out in the cold, but also make what's up interesting instead of just filler until the other platform's big game ends.

Finally, while I really do appreciate the feedback from those who have spoken up, the main reason why the supply costs never changed early on is pretty much because few people mentioned them within the first couple of days. I seem to recall seeing about 39 total accounts at one point the other day, and I know at least a few were my testing accounts. So, if people stopped by and were turned off by the settings, they didn't all say so. Also, with only 30ish total players, there's no surprise if the population was sparse when you take into account time zones.

If people really, truly believe OP is as good as or better than EAW, but just needs good campaign design, then let's see some effort from someone other than SFCX. We're glad to help and join forces, but if we're the only ones out there and we don't get feedback from more people, it will take a while to make OP popular again.

KBF-Dogmatix

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2003, 05:16:07 pm »
Well, i'm already on record as saying that "schedules" thing is pretty much balderdash.  It certainly need not be institutionalized as was being discussed.

There have been some long term, very good (even great) long term OP campaigns.  That some do not recall or were not there for them doesn't change the fact that they did indeed occur.

As far as the feedback goes, well, you heard from me almost immediately.  I can only control what I do, eh?  heheh...

The success of a campaign begins with its playerbase.  If that isn't there, it doesn't matter how good the product is.  I would suggest, however, that certain formulas have been proven winners in the past for OP and EAW.  One thing that has never worked, to my knowledge, has been very expensive supplies.  That keeps people away in droves.  Tough missions are one thing and account for their own level of attrition.  If you couple that with very high resupply and repair costs, you are guaranteeing a low turnout, in my opinion.  Just something to ponder for the future.


I've heard of more cases of people not playing due to missions being too tough and/or supply costs being to high than I have heard of people not playing because it's too easy or too cheap.  There's a good middle groun there somewhere...and I think it has been achieved in a few campaigns already.


I would LOVE to see the SFC2.NET and SFCX.NET teams get together to build a grand-daddy of them all OP campaign.  I'll sign up right now and do my part.




 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by KBF-Dogmatix »

jimmi7769

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2003, 05:29:10 pm »
Quote:


I would LOVE to see the SFC2.NET and SFCX.NET teams get together to build a grand-daddy of them all OP campaign.  I'll sign up right now and do my part.

 




You could count me in as well.

Klingon Fanatic

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2003, 05:53:05 pm »
I want to play Reclamation badly. I will be there as soon as I can figure out how to get my PC connected to the campaign.

I have bought a $5 copy of OP on line and will recruit my brother to join SFCX and OP online when I know how to do this properly, LOL.

P. S. Somebody please convert the SFC1 missions, Repair Rondevous and the Quantum Factor (custom) are two of my favorites I want to try in OP.

KF

Is it 'Qapla' or Qa Pla'?  
« Last Edit: April 22, 2003, 06:01:31 pm by Klingon Fanatic »

Mog

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2003, 06:04:31 pm »
Thank you Doggy and Mace, your opinions are most welcome, and I do agree with you both.

What I feel we need to try next is finally get around (as I hinted at earlier) to the Andro server we've been talking about for the last year and more. The Galactic Powers v the Andromedans. With Taldren improving the TRB to SFB specs (thank you ), I think a short (2-3 week) campaign to destroy the Andro Starbase could be a blast. Volunteers to fly for the Andros would be required (certainly do NOT want to fly v ai all the time). Re X ships, as I know they are a concern about OP, good facsimiles of the SFB 1st gen X ships can be introduced, but made expensive and rare.

Any thoughts?

NuclearWessels

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Re: Reclamation: 2275 is here.
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2003, 06:27:09 pm »
Quote:



I'll need to see a full-blown OP AoTK-sized campaign successfully run with the same quality of EAW Dyna before I consider moving any server to OP or write any mission scripts for OP.  




Actually, for the script writing part,  it turned out to be surprisingly easy to port most EAW missions to OP.  Even for fairly custom beasties you often just need to tweak the initialization of the briefing list and recompile them under the OP API.

I've finally got   common source code for my OP/EAW mission packs : saves a lot of hassle and makes it easy to port bug fixes and enhancements back and forth between them.

dave