Topic: Reclamation: 2275 is here.

[FireSoul]

Well..
.. 2275 arrived overnight..  .. and now I see the effects of the OP+ 2.0 ..
... "it was the year that everything changed." ... and yeeeowch!


-  A drone-equipped ships (of main races) recieve a reload refit. This isn't important for player-controlled ships.. but AI enemies are now better equipped.
-  Some gorn ships get their PLaF "F" refit.
-  Many Klingons also start getting their K refits now.
-  All A-rack equipped ships (of main races) are refitted to either B or C racks.
-  Some Romulan ships recieve their + refits.. from PLaG to PLaS..


Come and join us to find out what I'm talking about.

-- Luc

[jimmi7769]

It's hard to get anywhere when your shipyard only has 2 ships in it and you'r stuck in an F5.  

[jdmckinney]

Mace, you may have missed the new starter ship post. The starters are now CL/CW ships (D5 for Klingons). If you're having trouble with the F5C starter from before, and don't have the cash to get out of it, feel free to start a new account.

As for the small selection in the yards, it is working exactly as I had hoped. The better your economy, the better chance you will see more ships and larger ones. The Lyrans started out on the low end of the economy scale, but are now getting the occasional DN or BC in their yard, as well as CWs on a regular basis.

[jimmi7769]

I guess maybe I'll just wait until you make the starter ships BCh's   ;-)

[jdmckinney]

LOL, don't count on it!

Also, there's no guarantee I'll leave the higher starting ships in for the remainder of the campaign, so you might want to reserve one soon.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Been checking "Reclamation" out a bit...love the shiplist (what I can see of it), but starting out in a stock D5 in 2275 and paying 13 points or so for marines and 18 points or so for spare parts really isn't my bag.  I haven't been  too keen on that sort of price structure in the past and it still doesn't appeal to me when it comes to my limited playing time.  I like the challenge and all..it's just too tough a row to hoe with not much relief in sight when you can't really play that much.  On top of that..there's only three ships in the shipyard at any give time, so even if you DO earn the jack, theres...well, jack to buy...heheh.


i'll keep stopping in now and then...because it is an interesting challenge.  One of my missions tonight was a base defense.  Me and some Mirak DWE vs. four Gorn boats and the BATS.  Barely eked a win out there. but didn't earn enough to buy back half of what I spent in consummables.



 

[Cleaven]

It's the Gorn AI that does it to you. Not that it's any smarter than other AI, it's just that it doesn't take much to be a suicidal plasma user. At least you can fool the non-plasma races into making targets of themselves. Otherwise you go against Gorn or ISC, wear a few plasma hits, and spend half of what you earn on repairs and replacement marines. And if you get a tough match (your allies are 3 Kzin commando ships) then you have to pay more than you earn.

Co-opping with somebody else really turns the tide in your favour though, except for that damn neutral hex co-op bug.

Of course there are those sweet moments when the enemy is 3 Gorn commando ships.  

[FireSoul]

I seem to be doing fine on that server.. and I'm a lyran. I have to get in real close every time.

The ISC? Difficult but doable.
Reffitted Gorns? A challenge.. .. takes a plasma hit or 2 but doable..

[Cleaven]

Must just be me then. I'm completely useless unless I have a DN to drive. Maybe if I get a ship bigger than a destroyer I'll stop losing all those courier intercepts. For every fleet action I get (and usually win), I've lost about 3 courier intecepts (-50 + repairs + spares) and taken a huge beating killing all the ships in a couple of data recovery missions.    

[FireSoul]

those same 2 missions are the hardest. I believe NW should tweak down the difficulty in both.
-- Luc

[EmeraldEdge]

In data recovery don't kill the ships, get the data and run (Yellow alert, max speed, etc.).  300pp. that should help gettin' some extra pp.  

[FireSoul]

that will change in future versions..

[jdmckinney]

The best AI battle I've had on the server happened last night. I only went on long enough to play 3 missions, and the first was the best. I went up to the ring of nebula hexes surrounding the main VC hex and ran a Patrol (the freighter/escort variant) in the nebula as Lyran in a DCWLP. I had to race to catch the G-FQS and kill it in two phaser passes at the sector border. Then I had to dance with the G-CM for half an hour, using mostly just my 6 Ph1 and 4 PhG, speed, and luck. I used all my probes about 2/3 of the way through, and was really badly beaten up by the end. I used all 25 spare parts I had (those PhG and engines tend to get blown to hell on almost every internal scored) and came out of the mission with about 1/3 of my hull intact. Though my repair bill was about equal to the 270 pts. I earned (actually a little higher), I spent a few hundred more in resupply. My official time was 33:47, and it was actually worth it. Disruptors weren't hitting for squat in the nebula, so I was essentially flying a phaser boat. It was a nice challenge.

Yes, I took a major loss on that mission, but I enjoyed it. Next mission out, I ran a Planet Defense against the Gorn and won without much effort and no damage taken. It just so happened I also hit the Commodore promotion mark and gained 5K from the bonus. After one last mission (Big Game -- though the enemy was only an I-CAY and I had 2 small helpers), I had a total of 12K banked out of my 20K earned.

While I sympathize with the complaints about supply costs, I think they are not really that high. Granted, people without much playing time are going to feel the hit worse than others, but with some of the uber-commando tugs in the list and the ever-present droner advantage the D2 has built in, we have to keep those consumables from being too cheap. Next time around we'll try to balance the costs a bit better.

One other thing we'll have to be careful of is making sure the AI matchings aren't always just one or two races, so players have a choice of what kind of enemy they face. That's a mapmaking task, so I can't do anything about it this time around.

[EmeraldEdge]

Quote:
that will change in future versions..  

I thought the plan was to try and get it so that you get PP if you get out with the data, since that was the main mission, but only get the DV shift if you kill the other ships?

Still, you can get PP by running with the data in the current version, so it's a way to get enough PP to get into something better if you've lost a ship or two.  

[jimmi7769]

Quote:
I seem to be doing fine on that server.. and I'm a lyran. I have to get in real close every time.

The ISC? Difficult but doable.
Reffitted Gorns? A challenge.. .. takes a plasma hit or 2 but doable..  

Well, pat yourself on the back then.

Just remember that a server needs to be set up so even us crappy players can have a good time or you'll be the only one playing.

[Cleaven]

Quote:
those same 2 missions are the hardest. I believe NW should tweak down the difficulty in both.
-- Luc  

I don't see any reason for NW to bring the difficulty down on them if you are able to do them without any trouble, especially as a Lyran. Otherwise it will just become boring for me when I learn how to use something more complicated than a suicide shuttle.  

[NuclearWessels]

Well, now that you mention it

just finished recompiling the latest version of the mission pack
OP Mission Pack: http://www.sfcx.org/downloads/mirrors/NuclearWessels/OPMissions.zip
EAW Mission Pack: http://www.sfcx.org/downloads/mirrors/NuclearWessels//EAWMissions.zip

These aren't in use on any servers as of yet, so don't load them until you're done playing on LB3 or Reclamation.

A variety of minor tweaks, a revamped Data Recovery mission, and a couple of bug fixes.  I've tried to include everything that's been brought up so far in LB3 and Reclamation.

The 7Patrol is still broken, but not as badly as in the previous pack - the DV usually doesn't change, as opposed to changing in the wrong direction.  (I'd recommed not including 7Patrol in campaigns at the moment, I just included the script in this pack so any broken copies lying around will at least get overwritten with a less-broken one.)

dave
   

[KBF-Dogmatix]

That's great, FireSoul and Nomad.  Don't get me wrong.  I can hang.  The question is...do I have the time or patience to net  next to nothing every mission and, then, at such time as I can actually afford a new ship, I have two or three to choose from in the shipyard?



Well...I guess my points are these (and Mace has mentioned one of them)...

1.  In a D5, one 3-marine H&R attack (a major Klingon tactic), it costs me 39 PP..right out the window...and that's with only the possibility of doing damage to the targeted system(s).  Heaven forbid you try and capture something, too..or do another H&R attack.  39 pp goes to 78 or 117 rather quickly.  You've used 9 marines.  One mine or t-bomb to get some precious internals or shake a tail...8 pp.  Figure in any given multi-ship mission you use 6-8 of your mines.  48-64 PP...all for the priviledge of using mines.  Spares?  Egads...at 18 pp, you better hope you can beem some off enemy ships (often causes you to take internals), because replacing them alone will eat up your entire pp award per mission.  If these measures are meant to somehow mitigate the "built in droner advantage," I'd say you're thowing the baby out with the bathwater.  Your perrogative of course.  Just not my cup o' tea.

2.  When I received my stock D5 in 2275, the supply costs were so high I couldn't even afford to fully outfit my ship.  Two problems here, as I see it.  D5K (at least) in 2275, eh?  You fight AI with refits up to that point and you're in a stock variants that was commissioned 7 game years ago and has seen the release of four or five later variants since then. This is just a minor but important quibble, not a deal-breaker by any means.  Not being about to fully outfit your ship even once to start sort of sucked.  

3.  This is the point Mace touched on.  The times I've logged in, I've been the ONLY one on, or there is maybe 2-4 other people on.  Contrast this with 8 people on LitterBox 3 in the morning...and 15-25 people during prime time.  I'm not sure exactl;y what accounts for these discrepancies.  I'm sure there are a number of factors.  It's not the mission pack..because virtually the same missions are being used on both.  The draw of FireSouls's shiplist doesn't seem to be enough.  I know a lot of people who dig that list...and I'm one of them.  Yet, I'd prefer LB3 (totally stock shiplist and in early era) because you can actually make some reasonable headway due to supply costs.

You may think the supply costs are perfectly fine, but I'm guessing most people do not.  Only the die hard, very skilled few are going to like, let alone cope with those settings.  The rest will probably go somewhere else.  For me, it's not a matter of being able to hang.  I can do that.  I was never in danger of losing any of my missions, difficult as they were.  It's the return on my playing time.  If I only have maybe 10 hours a week to play, I'm going to go where fighting hard for 2 or 3 hours gets me into a decent, surivable ship..,maybe even one of of favorites.  Playing 10 hours on Reclamation might get me into that same variants (if it's one of the three ships in the shipyard), but it will have been like pulling teeth to get to that war destroyer...heheh.  It seems to me that while governing the "built in droner advantage" (which I don't really agree with, but I won't get into that), you're exascerbating the problem of nutters vs. the casual players.  

Put simply, I had a stock D5 on LB3 and a stock D5 on Reclamation.  I flew the stock D5 on LB3 more because it was more "fun."

Now, i'm merely stating my feelings on the matter to give some constructive feedback.  I suspect my opinions probably don't carry much weight and I do appreciate the efforts in bringing us what looks to be a great idea for an OP campaign.  I know it isn't easy to do that and I also know you will not please everyone all the time.



I hope this helps, if not, I apologize in advance for any ruffled feathers or fur or whatever...heheh.



 

[jimmi7769]

Dog, you're such the orater.....Yeah, what he said.....I was going to say the same thing, I just didn't have to half hour to type it in(hunt and pecker that I am)

A couple of other things on the marine problem.  It was piosted earlier that the increase in cost was to offset the commando ships.  I'd say change their frequency to very rare or even not player controlable rather than blow away the entire H&R/Capture mechanism.

Somewhere else I was told that the increase in the number of marines on the AI was because a ship would not leave spacedock without it's full complement of marines aboard.  On this one I'd have to point out that as the ship is delivered from the spacedock that IS the standard complement of marines.  If you look at the master ship chart or an SSD you'll see that the standard marine complement is much lower than we can outfit a ship with in stardock.  In SFB these were called commanders option items.  No ship came standard with the extra marines/T-Bombs and such could be purchased if the captain so desired.  Now while we could say that all of the AI is going to be smart enough to outfit their ships with the most stuff as well as we do but then again nobody ever said the AI was smart and would a captain of a police cruiser really have the pull to get all of those extra marines to sit around and collect dust on boring tariff enforcement mission when they should be out there storming Vulcan???  Not this marine buddy!!!

Well you get my point.  Wow it only took me about 15 minutes to get that typed up  ;-)
 

[IndyShark]

I have to agree that the supplies cost too much. In many missions I lose pp after resupplying and repairing. I know I can take data recovery missions, but I like FIGHTS not running.

Make the drones as expensive as you like, but please reduce repair parts, mines and marines!

[jdmckinney]

Thanks for the feedback -- it's the only way we can learn to make campaigns people actually will enjoy.

First, the numbers showing up for Reclamation are certainly not what we'd hoped for, but it's going to take time to rebuild the OP player base. A lot of players will never come back, and the number of potential "new" players for OP is something approaching zero, I'd guess. With even EAW campaigns unable to draw more than 20-30 players consistently, it's no wonder Reclamation peaked at about 8-10 players. Plus, the numbers will trend whichever way the wind is blowing. If there are low player numbers, then they will generally get lower simply because it's not that much fun to play against the AI all the time and never see another player to attack/defend against. If the player numbers are decent, then more will be drawn in by the action.

What we probably need to do with OP is start small and build up. That's what we wanted to try to do with Reclamation. I think the reasons it is not working quite as well as we wanted are simple matters of translation. While I was scrambling to put together the campaign settings based on the forum polls and the SFCX crew's stated preferences, storyline, and map, I started with cheaper ships, better shipyard production, and more affordable supplies. Then, with the old lessons from when OP and the D2 in general were booming, I found myself increasing prices. Shipyard production went down to fit the campaign story and (necessarily) map economy. At the same time, I wanted to take advantage of FireSoul's fine shiplist without restricting too many ships, since more ships is what draws many people to it in the first place. The end result is a shipyard production that makes sense for a limited scale campaign, but doesn't cycle often enough or offer the "right" kind of ships all the time.

Meanwhile, supplies seemed reasonable to start based on being able to outfit a K-F5C or Z-DD with medium drones and full supplies. What I didn't take into account was that as players got larger ships, they would have to spend more on those supplies to the point where they could not make enough prestige to pay for it all without running boring "gimme" missions. The neutral coop problems only made this worse, since players couldn't help each other out unless they didn't care about taking hexes. I think if we had consistently working neutral coop, a lot of the cost issues would work themselves out as players paired up to get out of their starting ships.

I reacted to people's complaints about starter ships being too hard to fly by bumping them up to CL/CW sizes, but the true problem wasn't the size of the starter ship but the supplies and shipyard production. So, looking back I'd probably change my approach to supplies and production.

Next, the map uses 20 DV hexes as the norm and goes up from there. In the days of a dozen nutters and 30 part-time players, these would have been cake. Today, however, we have to start lower. Perhaps changing the DV effect per mission from 1 to 3 or even 5 would help in the interim, but I don't see the value in constantly changing settings on a short-run server. It only confuses and annoys people.

Finally, we wanted this to be a fairly "light" campaign, to sort of test the waters and get people used to OP again. So, we didn't spam the boards and lobby for people to play. The laid-back approach just doesn't work when you've got a set of campaign settings built with the old player-base thinking.

To me this is all a learning experience -- a chance to push the improved OP D2 to its limits and find out what does and doesn't work so we make better games in the future. With that in mind, we've definitely learned some things. Next time we offer up an organized, VC-oriented campaign, we'll be able to put these lessons to good use.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

This is part of what I mean, Indy.

This (often losing PP, even when you overcome very tough odds and WIN) is what happens.  Is this what we want to happen?  If so, why?  

It it appeals to a few and satisfying those few is what is wished, then fine.  We all will cast our vote with our playing time.  

It seems to me that the the first relatively serious server using FireSoul's beautiful project, in a way,  is cutting off its nose despite its face.



BTW..what is the deal with the nearly barren shipyards, anyway?  I usually see no more than three ships.  Always seems to be some sort of tug and a couple of frigates.  As I said before...I guess it doesn't matter that jack is hard to come by, because there jack to buy...heheh.


 

[jdmckinney]

Dogmatix, the shipyards are producing only a couple of ships because of the low starting territory and economy relative to what a full galaxy map would have. It's also clearing ships at each economy run so there's no overlap where the old ships stick around when the new ones come in.

Perhaps putting back in more staying power for the ships produced would help. Though we don't need 10 new ships every turn, it would probably help to see a CW you can't yet afford stick around for a couple hours until you can.

[jdmckinney]

Oh, and as far as getting better ships in the yard goes, I've seen Lyran BCPs and DNs. That's because the Lyrans built up their economy. None of the other races that started with just 7 hexes have taken more than about 2 hexes, so their yards are going to have smaller ships more often based on that economy.

What I've learned is that we CAN have a meaningful economy/shipyard production that doesn't just hand out every plum ship like candy, but until we get more players and more territory being taken, it will always look as if the yards are woefully under-producing.

[Mog]

Doggy, the barren shipyards (if you read the server blurb ) represents the fact that this region of space is away from the main empires - therefore supplies and ships slowly trickle to this new front.

While I can see these issues putting people off (personally I've struggled in the Courier mission, done ok in the Fleet Action, and never turn a Data Recovery down), it still seems to me that EAW is favoured by the majority of remaining players. I want to be proven wrong on this. At least we now know that OP D2 works as well as EAW D2 - no need to play pirate for a while to boost DVs anymore.

Maybe the next OP server we put out may be an Operation to bring Unity to the D2?

[FireSoul]

Quote:
Oh, and as far as getting better ships in the yard goes, I've seen Lyran BCPs and DNs. That's because the Lyrans built up their economy. None of the other races that started with just 7 hexes have taken more than about 2 hexes, so their yards are going to have smaller ships more often based on that economy.
 

The Feds had 9.. but didn't reinforce them..
I 'liberated' the two with asteroids (and thus some worthwhile economy) because I was bored.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
Oh, and as far as getting better ships in the yard goes, I've seen Lyran BCPs and DNs. That's because the Lyrans built up their economy. None of the other races that started with just 7 hexes have taken more than about 2 hexes, so their yards are going to have smaller ships more often based on that economy.

What I've learned is that we CAN have a meaningful economy/shipyard production that doesn't just hand out every plum ship like candy, but until we get more players and more territory being taken, it will always look as if the yards are woefully under-producing.  

Gotcha.  I knew things could work this way.  I just didn't know for a fact that this was what was at work here.  Now I do.


Failure to read the server description past what files were needed is my own fault, of course.


 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
Doggy, the barren shipyards (if you read the server blurb ) represents the fact that this region of space is away from the main empires - therefore supplies and ships slowly trickle to this new front.

While I can see these issues putting people off (personally I've struggled in the Courier mission, done ok in the Fleet Action, and never turn a Data Recovery down), it still seems to me that EAW is favoured by the majority of remaining players. I want to be proven wrong on this. At least we now know that OP D2 works as well as EAW D2 - no need to play pirate for a while to boost DVs anymore.

Maybe the next OP server we put out may be an Operation to bring Unity to the D2?  

Missions are no issue if the supply costs are reasonable...case in point, LB3.


Yes...more people own EAW than own OP.  That will account for some of the disparity in player populations.  For those of us that do own both, I'm guessing we're playing LB3 more regulary because of the supply costs, even though OP is the more attractive product and Reclamation is using FireSoul's wonderful shiplist.

I can be sure of one fact...and that is the fact that I am personally playing on EAW in the LB3 server because I do not like the supply costs on Reclamation.  To the extent that anyone cares, I thought I'd offer up that constructive criticism.  


Who is playing on Reclamation?  I know I am (on a very limited basis), Mace is (probably also a very limited basis), FireSoul, Castrin, Nomad, Indy and you.  Are there others?  Like I said...it's either me myself or 2-4 others.  I know more people own OP than that.  I think most of the people I see on LB3 own OP.


Is it the prevailing opinion of the SFCX crew that it's just a matter of EAW being more popular?  Like I said...all things being equal, OP is the better product because it has more.


 

[jimmi7769]

I'm playing on Reclamation in a very limited form.  I love the expanded shiplist and the better missions(on both servers), but the server settings are what got me down.  The high supply cost and the fact the I was one of about 2 Klinks on there at any one time and usually I was the only one there.  Beating my head againt a 40 DV planet hex in an F5D(while doable) isvery very boring....only 30 more missions and it's mine!!!  That along with the empty shipyard that goes with the poor economy and I usually got frustrated and headed over to EAW to find 5 or more fellow Klingons slugging it out with the other 20 or so people.

I'm one to say that I would wholeheartedly switch to OP and never play EAW again if everyone else would come to.  I was just at Electronics boutique in town and saw 3 copies of OP on the bargain shelf.  There is no reason to stay with EAW as long as OP's  Dyna works as well as EAW's.  Hell, you can but copies off the infogrames website for $5 just buy it and shut up.  I think what is going to have to happen is the server admins are going to have to switch to OP and then the players would have to follow or play on the speed 10 Quake(I mean Battlezone) server.

[Karnak]

Quote:
I'm playing on Reclamation in a very limited form.  I love the expanded shiplist and the better missions(on both servers), but the server settings are what got me down.  The high supply cost and the fact the I was one of about 2 Klinks on there at any one time and usually I was the only one there.  Beating my head againt a 40 DV planet hex in an F5D(while doable) isvery very boring....only 30 more missions and it's mine!!!  That along with the empty shipyard that goes with the poor economy and I usually got frustrated and headed over to EAW to find 5 or more fellow Klingons slugging it out with the other 20 or so people.

I'm one to say that I would wholeheartedly switch to OP and never play EAW again if everyone else would come to.  I was just at Electronics boutique in town and saw 3 copies of OP on the bargain shelf.  There is no reason to stay with EAW as long as OP's  Dyna works as well as EAW's.  Hell, you can but copies off the infogrames website for $5 just buy it and shut up.  I think what is going to have to happen is the server admins are going to have to switch to OP and then the players would have to follow or play on the speed 10 Quake(I mean Battlezone) server.  

I'll need to see a full-blown OP AoTK-sized campaign successfully run with the same quality of EAW Dyna before I consider moving any server to OP or write any mission scripts for OP.  

[FPF_TraceyG]

As soon as I get the time, I'll be compiling all the missions I write for OP as well. I've only just acquired OP recently, although, ironically, I've had the OP Scripting API for quite some time... lol!!

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
<snip>

I'm one to say that I would wholeheartedly switch to OP and never play EAW again if everyone else would come to.  I was just at Electronics boutique in town and saw 3 copies of OP on the bargain shelf.  There is no reason to stay with EAW as long as OP's  Dyna works as well as EAW's.  Hell, you can but copies off the infogrames website for $5 just buy it and shut up.  I think what is going to have to happen is the server admins are going to have to switch to OP and then the players would have to follow or play on the speed 10 Quake(I mean Battlezone) server.  

I'm with you there.  I actually prefer OP's shiplist and stock mission pack over EAW.  With FireSoul's shiplist and Dave's mission packs, it's even better.  The big problem with OP has always been the dyna map and how it works (or doesn't).  If that is made to work as well as the EAW dyna does (granted IT isn't perfect, either), then I'd be advocating a community-wide swtich to OP.  There have been some GREAT OP campaigns despite the problems caused by the cartel map.  None has quite surpassed the very best EAW campaigns, in my humble opinion, but I think the potential to do so is there.


Hell, I'd scout out and buy up bargain rack copies of OP and help subsidise the the move to OP, if everything gets worked out.


I have no bias against OP aside from the well-known map interaction issues.


If LB3 had the same supply costs as Reclamation does, I'd probably play on Reclamation more.  I wanna play with that shiplist in a dyna setting.  I don't do single-player campaignsin SFC.  I haven't since SFC1.


 

[jimmi7769]

Quote:
I'll need to see a full-blown OP AoTK-sized campaign successfully run with the same quality of EAW Dyna before I consider moving any server to OP or write any mission scripts for OP.  

Catch 22

[Karnak]

Quote:

Quote:
I'll need to see a full-blown OP AoTK-sized campaign successfully run with the same quality of EAW Dyna before I consider moving any server to OP or write any mission scripts for OP.  

Catch 22  

LOL. Ok, let's say a 4-6 week campaign, then, without anymore dyna bugs found than on an EAW dyna.

[jdmckinney]

When will this hypothetical big OP campaign happen? When SFCX broached the topic of "we finally have a working OP D2 and who wants to play what kind of campaign?" all we got was schedules shoved in our faces and told to wait our turn, even though we didn't actually have a campaign plan or design but were just trying to get a read on what people wanted.

Well, we have pretty much decided we don't want to do long-term, big-map campaigns because we just don't have the space in between everyone else to do such things. Instead, we are trying to build a model where smaller-map theatres of war are run, some simultaneously, to approximate a General War-scope campaign with multiple fronts. There are a lot of advantages to this approach. For one thing, players for alliance/coalition can be concentrated into fewer empires for any given ToW, meaning no more 2-player empires for the rest to pick on or ignore. For another, DB corruptions and long-term server health become less of an issue (last I knew, OP doesn't have SQL yet) when you run weekend, 1-week, 2-week minicampaigns.

Now (and by now I mean start planning for something this summer) may be a prime time to use this model as a cross-admin cooperative campaign, with both EAW and OP chapters and theatres running, so as not to leave one group or the other out in the cold, but also make what's up interesting instead of just filler until the other platform's big game ends.

Finally, while I really do appreciate the feedback from those who have spoken up, the main reason why the supply costs never changed early on is pretty much because few people mentioned them within the first couple of days. I seem to recall seeing about 39 total accounts at one point the other day, and I know at least a few were my testing accounts. So, if people stopped by and were turned off by the settings, they didn't all say so. Also, with only 30ish total players, there's no surprise if the population was sparse when you take into account time zones.

If people really, truly believe OP is as good as or better than EAW, but just needs good campaign design, then let's see some effort from someone other than SFCX. We're glad to help and join forces, but if we're the only ones out there and we don't get feedback from more people, it will take a while to make OP popular again.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Well, i'm already on record as saying that "schedules" thing is pretty much balderdash.  It certainly need not be institutionalized as was being discussed.

There have been some long term, very good (even great) long term OP campaigns.  That some do not recall or were not there for them doesn't change the fact that they did indeed occur.

As far as the feedback goes, well, you heard from me almost immediately.  I can only control what I do, eh?  heheh...

The success of a campaign begins with its playerbase.  If that isn't there, it doesn't matter how good the product is.  I would suggest, however, that certain formulas have been proven winners in the past for OP and EAW.  One thing that has never worked, to my knowledge, has been very expensive supplies.  That keeps people away in droves.  Tough missions are one thing and account for their own level of attrition.  If you couple that with very high resupply and repair costs, you are guaranteeing a low turnout, in my opinion.  Just something to ponder for the future.


I've heard of more cases of people not playing due to missions being too tough and/or supply costs being to high than I have heard of people not playing because it's too easy or too cheap.  There's a good middle groun there somewhere...and I think it has been achieved in a few campaigns already.


I would LOVE to see the SFC2.NET and SFCX.NET teams get together to build a grand-daddy of them all OP campaign.  I'll sign up right now and do my part.




 

[jimmi7769]

Quote:

I would LOVE to see the SFC2.NET and SFCX.NET teams get together to build a grand-daddy of them all OP campaign.  I'll sign up right now and do my part.

 

You could count me in as well.

[Klingon Fanatic]

I want to play Reclamation badly. I will be there as soon as I can figure out how to get my PC connected to the campaign.

I have bought a $5 copy of OP on line and will recruit my brother to join SFCX and OP online when I know how to do this properly, LOL.

P. S. Somebody please convert the SFC1 missions, Repair Rondevous and the Quantum Factor (custom) are two of my favorites I want to try in OP.

KF

Is it 'Qapla' or Qa Pla'?  

[Mog]

Thank you Doggy and Mace, your opinions are most welcome, and I do agree with you both.

What I feel we need to try next is finally get around (as I hinted at earlier) to the Andro server we've been talking about for the last year and more. The Galactic Powers v the Andromedans. With Taldren improving the TRB to SFB specs (thank you ), I think a short (2-3 week) campaign to destroy the Andro Starbase could be a blast. Volunteers to fly for the Andros would be required (certainly do NOT want to fly v ai all the time). Re X ships, as I know they are a concern about OP, good facsimiles of the SFB 1st gen X ships can be introduced, but made expensive and rare.

Any thoughts?

[NuclearWessels]

Quote:


I'll need to see a full-blown OP AoTK-sized campaign successfully run with the same quality of EAW Dyna before I consider moving any server to OP or write any mission scripts for OP.  

Actually, for the script writing part,  it turned out to be surprisingly easy to port most EAW missions to OP.  Even for fairly custom beasties you often just need to tweak the initialization of the briefing list and recompile them under the OP API.

I've finally got   common source code for my OP/EAW mission packs : saves a lot of hassle and makes it easy to port bug fixes and enhancements back and forth between them.

dave
   

[Cleaven]

For what it's worth, I don't intend to play EAW again. It appears that OP now has the same gameplay capability as EAW but with extra features and stability. And though the gamplay is not entirely proven I intend to make a commitment to OP only at this time, both for D2 and GSA.  

[Scipio_66]

Quote:
For what it's worth, I don't intend to play EAW again. It appears that OP now has the same gameplay capability as EAW but with extra features and stability. And though the gamplay is not entirely proven I intend to make a commitment to OP only at this time, both for D2 and GSA.    

<shrug> Whatever.  I feel no pull towards OP.  I still find EAW to be a superior performer in D2 gameplay, server stability, and lag.

Now, if someone puts up a killer OP server with a concept that sucks me in, I'll dig up my copy of OP and play.  No question.  But I'll still know where my home is.  

My apologies to the SFX guys for posting this in their thread.  I ignored the comments for a while, but the EAW bashing was getting a little heavy and it is the game I prefer.  I won't post on this topic within this thread again.  I support your efforts, and to make ammends to you I'll try to put in some time playing on Reclamation.

-S'Cipio

[jimmi7769]

Quote:
My apologies to the SFX guys for posting this in their thread.  I ignored the comments for a while, but the EAW bashing was getting a little heavy and it is the game I prefer.  I won't post on this topic within this thread again.  I support your efforts, and to make ammends to you I'll try to put in some time playing on Reclamation.

-S'Cipio  

Hey, Tiny brained wiper of other persons bottoms!!  I don't think I recall any bashing going on whatsoever.  Bashing???
He must still be suffering from the old bamboo cannon trick....

[FireSoul]

Quote:
Now (and by now I mean start planning for something this summer) may be a prime time to use this model as a cross-admin cooperative campaign, with both EAW and OP chapters and theatres running, so as not to leave one group or the other out in the cold, but also make what's up interesting instead of just filler until the other platform's big game ends.  

*ding!*

.. I wish OP had SQL now..

.. imagine a sector where the blackhole lets you transfer yourself to another server..
.. a TRUE cross-admin campaign.

-- Luc

[Cleaven]

Quote:

Quote:
For what it's worth, I don't intend to play EAW again. It appears that OP now has the same gameplay capability as EAW but with extra features and stability. And though the gamplay is not entirely proven I intend to make a commitment to OP only at this time, both for D2 and GSA.    

<shrug> Whatever.  I feel no pull towards OP.  I still find EAW to be a superior performer in D2 gameplay, server stability, and lag.

Now, if someone puts up a killer OP server with a concept that sucks me in, I'll dig up my copy of OP and play.  No question.  But I'll still know where my home is.  

My apologies to the SFX guys for posting this in their thread.  I ignored the comments for a while, but the EAW bashing was getting a little heavy and it is the game I prefer.  I won't post on this topic within this thread again.  I support your efforts, and to make ammends to you I'll try to put in some time playing on Reclamation.

-S'Cipio  

1. I must have given you the impression that EAW was getting worse. This is not the case. EAW is no worse now than it was three months ago. Consider this a "bashing" if you think that the EAW engine has actually improved in the last three months.
2. I know that some people can't care less about whether anybody plays OP or not but nobody is going to know if OP is any better to play in it's current form if they don't try it. So if after only playing OP for a decent period of time I come to the conclusion that it is worse i.e. D2 is still unplayable, holding costs balance is terrible , G-racks still don't work properly etc, then I shall say so. However I do wish to give it a go. Once again if wanting to try something else is "bashing" EAW then so be it, consider EAW bashed (even though I haven't deleted it yet just in case).
3. Who is the foollish admin that is going to put effort into a "killer" server when they don't know if it's going to be playable or not. At this time all I know definitely is that the GSA >2 player games are more stable in OP than in EAW. I don't know how much more stable the current OP server will be for large player numbers but these are two different parts of the OP software so it won't be related, but would be good to know before trying to start a large server.
4. For those who want to continue work on OP, I will be only playing OP for a good while so you will have at least one customer. That is unless somebody fixes neutral co-op on EAW but not on OP, in which case I too will shrug and go back to EAW because that will be an improvement over the current state of affairs (for both games).

   

[FireSoul]

Quote:
Been checking "Reclamation" out a bit...love the shiplist (what I can see of it), but starting out in a stock D5 in 2275 and paying 13 points or so for marines and 18 points or so for spare parts really isn't my bag.  I haven't been  too keen on that sort of price structure in the past and it still doesn't appeal to me when it comes to my limited playing time.  I like the challenge and all..it's just too tough a row to hoe with not much relief in sight when you can't really play that much.  On top of that..there's only three ships in the shipyard at any give time, so even if you DO earn the jack, theres...well, jack to buy...heheh.


i'll keep stopping in now and then...because it is an interesting challenge.  One of my missions tonight was a base defense.  Me and some Mirak DWE vs. four Gorn boats and the BATS.  Barely eked a win out there. but didn't earn enough to buy back half of what I spent in consummables.
 

ED's Planet Assault script is your friend.. (neutral planets work best)
.. it gives you a nice juicy O-CA with 6 droneracks, 16? marines and 4 spareparts..


Tactics:
- when the mission starts, set the O-CA to "fire at my command only".
- when your phaser cap is ALMOST full, turn on eratic maneuvering for a sec. Planet's phaser4s will shoot at you around then.
- go kill things .. ignore the planet. The planet will stop shooting at you if your other AI wingmen are spread around the planet attacking it from various sides.
- choose a shield.. stop there at range.. 40? 30? far. .. and start telling your O-CA wingman to drone the planet. It can control only 6 drones at once, so wait till the currect drones in-flight hit.

- when you run out of those.. here's what you do:
1- make sure you're stopped. In fact, do a 'Full Stop" emergency decel with your ship. Take down all your shields
2- quickly change your control to the O-CA.
3- Target your own ship and send marines.  
4- target the planet and send the scatterpacks you may have in the shuttlebay. 1 at a time, drone control at 6 and all..
5- return to your own ship. Target the O-CA
6- beam over its spare parts. It's got 4 at start of mission.

.. repeat the process until the O-CA is empty of scatterpacks, and is cleaned out of marines and parts.



NEXT..
.. approach the planet with your own ship..
.. steal the parts from there too. The planet may have up to 9.  
.. keep attacking planet till it's down to 2 marines.

.. and finally..
.. capture the planet.


Conclusion:
It doesn't matter if you're in a crappy ship. You're given a O-CA to help you bombard the planet. You just have to resist the temptation to use it against the enemy ships (and tell it not to attack). At the end of the mission, if all went well, you'll have stocked up on many spare parts, and marines too! ..


.. that, and you just brought the DV of a planet down a notch.



-- Luc

[Mog]

Firesoul, the O-CA was an addition given to Lyrans only for planet assaults, because of the long time it takes them to accomplish these missions.

Cleaven, thank you for your support, but I don't think that the dozen or so people who are interested in OP will be able to stress test the software enough to satisfy the high demands of the anti-OP brigade.

Scippy, I've tried to find this EAW-bashing of which you speak. I have been unable to. Unless, you mean that people saying that OP has the potential to be a better platform than EAW, is EAW bashing. Then, I plead guilty as charged. As for producing a killer campaign, please read my previous post. If a Galactic Powers v Andromedans campaign idea doesn't grab your imagination, then I honestly don't know what would.

Anyhow, the whole EAW/OP divide leaves me feeling extremely disenchanted with the game in general, so I may just quietly slip away, like so many of my friends who I've met over the years have done.

[FireSoul]

Quote:
Firesoul, the O-CA was an addition given to Lyrans only for planet assaults, because of the long time it takes them to accomplish these missions.

Really? I didn't know that.
Maybe NW should look at my above post and see if he could prevent abuse.

-- Luc

[FireSoul]

Remember people..
.. it's just a game.

[Dizzy]

Ya, and remember SG3 is comming up. Its very cool. Cleaven, I hope you will give it a try.

The neutral coop bug... shouldnt be an issue on SG3, there is hardly any neutral terrain. Anyways... I support OP and EAW.

My first server was on OP. And the sfcx guys are the most commited bunch of admins I have ever seen. OP D2 still doesnt work worth beans and they still keep at it trying to get it to work. If this effort doesnt win you over to OP, then screw off. They deserver better than what they have been given...

But give the SG3 EAW campaign a chance. Dont dis it cuz its an EAW campaign. It took forever to get just right. And is sure to be a crowd pleaser. It needs a large player base, so I hope to see you there when it launches. The beta server for it should go up in a cpl days, and Ill let everyone know where to get the D/L.

As far as the OP and EAW servers... the SCFX guys have told me they supprt SG3 on EAW. I support their servers. I mean... some ppl like one over the other. Thats fine.

If you dont like SG3, then stick to the OP campaigns. But try SG3 out. There's just too many cool things that aere new to ignore it. Hehe... I have so many cool surprises in SG3, you will freak out!

[jdmckinney]

I still don't understand why people insist on saying OP D2 is still broken without having tried it. I'm not accusing anyone specifically of being uninformed, but that is the general sense I get when people say they like EAW better -- that the OP D2 and gameplay are crap.

Well, OP D2 as of this moment, and for several weeks now, is as good as EAW. Both have neutral coop problems. OP does have the cartel layer, but we have proven with Reclamation and Badlands that you can make the pirates a non-entity if you wish with blanket neutral cartel ownership and have a perfectly good empires campaign. What this allows is for pirates to be what they really should be: raiders and nuisances to the empire forces. Plus, thanks to the extra playable slots, OP permits more modding of new races. Personally, I like the idea of having LDR, Tholians, WYN, and any other "minor" race you care to name or create showing up as pirates. The only trouble is the ability to double engines, but that's a minor issue.

Plus, there are the TRBs that allow us to have rough approximations of Andromedans. The only trouble I see there is making them playable without everyone flocking to them, but that's a sign-up and pre-planning issue. It may even be possible to have some displacement device effects simulated in mission scripts, so the potential is there. That's what's great about OP -- there are more options. You can run a straight-up empire war, a heavily modded, specialized campaign, or anything in between.

All we're really lacking is time commitment from players and admins in OP. People just need to dust off their copies, reinstall them, or whatever, and play the game. If people want specific types of settings, pricing, maps, shiplists, or missions, then they just need to add their voices to the few who have always been good about giving feedback. The admins will make it, as long as there are players interested in participating.

Admin cooperation will certainly help to create killer campaigns. Not everyone with good ideas has the time, skill, equipment, or padded room necessary to build and host a campaign.

[Dizzy]

Quote:
I still don't understand why people insist on saying OP D2 is still broken without having tried it.  

Why do you think SG3 is using EAW?

 

Quote:
  People just need to dust off their copies, reinstall them, or whatever, and play the game.  

Wait until SG3 is over You dont want to miss it!  

[jdmckinney]

Dizzy, I understand your situation with SG3 -- you had to commit to a platform so you could get the work done. Would it have been great to see SG3 in OP? Yes, but you have to go where you have the best chance to get the campaign rolling.

That said, I don't see how anyone can tell me OP D2 is in worse shape than EAW. Until they put in as much testing and playing time on OP D2 as I have, they are going to have to show me some solid examples of problems that can't be avoided with settings changes or the right map. Reclamation shows that OP D2 works, even if my supply prices don't. The map was too neutral, as well. Next time around, we'll have this experience to build on. By "we" I mean anyone who does OP campaigns. That's why I like seeing more admins around: because we learn more with each different approach.

I'm also not saying EAW campaigns should be put on hold or players should not play there so they can spend time on OP. What I am saying is the players who haven't even booted up OP in months should play it before they condemn it by rote. That doesn't include you, but it does include some others who have pull in the community. Admins also need to consider it for campaigns, now that we have done what we set out to do and proven it can handle it. Yes, I'd like SQL for OP, but for all the talk of it improving stability, I have seen no proof an SQL DB is more stable than a flatfile one. Instead, SQL offers better DB access for admins and the possibility of useful tools to maintain the DB and affect the game while it is running.

In short (though my posts rarely are), I urge players to give OP a chance. Maybe you'll find it can be at least as enjoyable as EAW, and with the right campaigns, even better.

[Capt Jeff]

Dizzy, really......STFU !

People have waited a year for a patch, and now have one that makes the game enjoyable for them (and me as well, as I have and love playing OP).

It's like telling someone they suck on their birhtday....lets encourage movement to having 2 fun and playable games.

[jdmckinney]

Jeff, while I think your support of OP is great, I think Dizzy is doing exactly what he should -- campaigning for his campaign. We all need players to make the game fun, and right now there is not the player base to sustain two major campaigns at once.

Until we as a community bring in more D2 players, we need to find some alternatives to the single-server big campaigns that run for more than a month. Now's the time to plan for those things, while some already designed campaigns are running.

If OP players really want it to live again, then they should go out and become software evangelists, for want of a better word. Go and drum up more players and support for OP so we can all enjoy it again.

[Karnak]

No worries, jdmckinney.

 If OP can run a stable dyna campaign with the same quality control as an EAW dyna then it won't take much work to convert existing missions and servers to OP.

What I see as a bigger danger to the community as a whole is all the snippy statements going around from admins in the last few weeks.  You want to drive programmers away from SFC development or potential programmers from mission scripting then let's just keep it up.  Same goes for people with campaign ideas that would love to admin a campaign. When they see the admins acting like this who in their right mind would consider the techies reliable enough to get  the job done.

 It starting to get to the point where I think I should start asking for Forum moderator intervention for the good of D2.

Statements like "STFU" from admins only get people irritated and consider you a person to be ignored.  

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

 

Quote:
 If OP players really want it to live again, then they should go out and become software evangelists, for want of a better word. Go and drum up more players and support for OP so we can all enjoy it again.

I for one, would be willing to see what I could to help drum up support. I might have a few ideas to try in that area.

I do need some info.

1. What is the upcoming schedule for campaign's.
2. Will they be EAW or OP.
3. Campaign Admins and their email addy's.
4. A basic overview of the campaign.

If you want, anyone can email me their info and overview. Please use steelclaw@cox.net.

I may build an informational site for people to go to. I will use it if I am on Game Slime. I know that the few left there generally prefer one on one play, but I can always try.

If you want your fleet/organization linked to it, also let me know at the above email addy.

We do have a smaller base, I just want to see everything in a site so people can see we are still alive and kicking. If you have any ideas, post or email me. The only really bad idea is the one not mentioned.




 

[Cleaven]

And if anybody happens to catch me on GSA, I'll have a room up in OP called Generations. I will be running a sequence of missions starting in Early 110, followed by Mid 160, Late 210, Adv 260 using the OP Plus shiplist. And anybody who plays will stay with the same empire through the four games. Call it a micro campaign to try and get the most out of the extra ships.  

[FireSoul]

Quote:
If OP players really want it to live again, then they should go out and become software evangelists, for want of a better word. Go and drum up more players and support for OP so we can all enjoy it again.  

Thankfully, there's more to being an evangelist than just preaching..
.. sometimes, there's work to be done, things to tweak, scripts to write and shiplists to review.

There's always something to be done to improve the thing you enjoy the most.
-- Luc

[FireSoul]

Quote:
And if anybody happens to catch me on GSA, I'll have a room up in OP called Generations. I will be running a sequence of missions starting in Early 110, followed by Mid 160, Late 210, Adv 260 using the OP Plus shiplist. And anybody who plays will stay with the same empire through the four games. Call it a micro campaign to try and get the most out of the extra ships.    

Can you send me your ICQ number if you have one?
Try ICQing me some times if you think I might be interested in joining you online.

-- Luc

[NuclearWessels]

Quote:

Quote:
Firesoul, the O-CA was an addition given to Lyrans only for planet assaults, because of the long time it takes them to accomplish these missions.

Really? I didn't know that.
Maybe NW should look at my above post and see if he could prevent abuse.

-- Luc  

Actually I think the next go-round will remove the pirate assistant in OP at least: since the Lyrans have maulers in OP it's much easier to take out bases and planets if you want to.

In EAW  I'll set it up  so your helper is more variable (maybe the O-CA, maybe a smaller pirate with a couple of drone racks, maybe nothing), but never larger than the ship you've got.  Right now you can take an FF into some of the assault missions, get the O-CA plus the usual AI help, and run fairly rampant ...

dave
   

[jdmckinney]

Dave, I think the pirate helper is a good idea, at least for now. After all, maulers are not always good ships to fly for any given mission, and people can't just trade ships in and get different ones for each mission or string of missions. Most Lyrans will still be using CWs with disruptors and ESGs to attack planets. If using a stock shiplist, there's not even the LDR available, much less the WYN included in OP+. I think the tweak to a variable mercenary size and perhaps a chance for no help at all would be good, but removing it altogether before seeing OP Lyrans in action in a true large-scale campaign would be premature.

It has been nice to see some Lyrans on Reclamation. Maybe I'll feel like I can fly something else next time around.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
I <snip>


Is it 'Qapla' or Qa Pla'?  

Qapla'!


When referring to Feds or any of their puppet government allies, you should call them petaQ!.  





 

[jimmi7769]

Quote:
Dave, I think the pirate helper is a good idea, at least for now. After all, maulers are not always good ships to fly for any given mission, and people can't just trade ships in and get different ones for each mission or string of missions. Most Lyrans will still be using CWs with disruptors and ESGs to attack planets. If using a stock shiplist, there's not even the LDR available, much less the WYN included in OP+. I think the tweak to a variable mercenary size and perhaps a chance for no help at all would be good, but removing it altogether before seeing OP Lyrans in action in a true large-scale campaign would be premature.

It has been nice to see some Lyrans on Reclamation. Maybe I'll feel like I can fly something else next time around.  

I thought the LDR were in the stock OP shiplist.  

I think the droner helper for the Lyrans is a good thing, if there is some abuse of it I wouldn't think it would really amount to much.  No worse than a sector full of D5D's, NCD's and MCD's.

Poor Lyran brothers, they need a break.

[Capt Jeff]

Quote:


What I see as a bigger danger to the community as a whole is all the snippy statements going around from admins in the last few weeks.  You want to drive programmers away from SFC development or potential programmers from mission scripting then let's just keep it up.  Same goes for people with campaign ideas that would love to admin a campaign. When they see the admins acting like this who in their right mind would consider the techies reliable enough to get  the job done.



Statements like "STFU" from admins only get people irritated and consider you a person to be ignored.  

You know,  I could go on and on about my commitments and time spent helping better this game and community, but I don't have the ego to go on and on about it like someone here.

What have you done so far ?  How long have you had friendships with people from this board?

If you knew some of these people half as well as I do, you'd know that sometimes Dizzy needs to be talked to in a manner that HE understands to make it stick.
 

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

 

Quote:
 I'm with you there. I actually prefer OP's shiplist and stock mission pack over EAW. With FireSoul's shiplist and Dave's mission packs, it's even better. The big problem with OP has always been the dyna map and how it works (or doesn't). If that is made to work as well as the EAW dyna does (granted IT isn't perfect, either), then I'd be advocating a community-wide swtich to OP. There have been some GREAT OP campaigns despite the problems caused by the cartel map. None has quite surpassed the very best EAW campaigns, in my humble opinion, but I think the potential to do so is there.

I think you have hit on one of the big issues here with the map and cartels. With the ever shrinking player base, it may prove too tough to play OP races and cartels with any decent numbers.

Quote:
If LB3 had the same supply costs as Reclamation does, I'd probably play on Reclamation more. I wanna play with that shiplist in a dyna setting. I don't do single-player campaignsin SFC. I haven't since SFC1.
 

Supply costs can be a big issue for drone races. I don't know what they are for the Reclamation server, but if they are prohibitive, expect fewer to play.

I like both EAW and OP (I have all four SFC titles). When we run 10-15 servers and you have about 50 people to chose from, it makes for a poor showing for most servers. Since players tend to gravitate to one or two, this leaves others empty. This can be both good and bad. It does force the admins to put up an interesting, fun, and different server. Otherwise, it's a ghost town on their game.

As for which game is better, that is a matter of personal opinion.

 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:

Quote:
For what it's worth, I don't intend to play EAW again. It appears that OP now has the same gameplay capability as EAW but with extra features and stability. And though the gamplay is not entirely proven I intend to make a commitment to OP only at this time, both for D2 and GSA.    

<shrug> Whatever.  I feel no pull towards OP.  I still find EAW to be a superior performer in D2 gameplay, server stability, and lag.

Now, if someone puts up a killer OP server with a concept that sucks me in, I'll dig up my copy of OP and play.  No question.  But I'll still know where my home is.  

My apologies to the SFX guys for posting this in their thread.  I ignored the comments for a while, but the EAW bashing was getting a little heavy and it is the game I prefer.  I won't post on this topic within this thread again.  I support your efforts, and to make ammends to you I'll try to put in some time playing on Reclamation.

-S'Cipio  

To be honest, S'Cipio...I really haven't seen any EAW bashing, eh?  If you really wanted to look for it, you could maybe take offense to the minor whinge about "campaign scheduling and wait your turn," but that's a stretch.    If anything, i'm seeing mainly pro-OP "give it a chance, it's now just as good and check out the OP+ shiplist that FireSould did." kind of stuff.  

Your mileage may vary (and apparently has), but I get noticeably more stability when playing on an OP dyna when it comes to co-op and PvP.  I'm not sure what it is, but it just seems to work better.  Less lag...fewer "hoest left, new host..." messages.  I don't know exactly how things are in the new patch though because I haven't flown a single co-op or PvP mission on Reclamation.  I haven't heard any news about it having gotten worse, though.  If anyone has any data to the contrary, feel free to speak up.


By now, most of you probably know me (most those probably wish they didn't   ).  One thing Ihave always been is pro-SFC Community.  I have no more love for EAW  than I do OP (no love for SFC3, no love!   ).  I may have more fond campaign memories relating to EAW, but the reasons for that are obvious.  I think both of them have their merits.  At thbis point in time, however, I feel OP is now technically the better product.  What makes EAW better overall is the fact that more people play it.  This means that if i'm looking for a rocking good time,  I'd rather be on an EAW server with 25 people and no OP+ shiplist or OP weapons and perhaps a little less stability than be on an OP server by myself or with two or three other people.  Move the population over to OP and it is my assertion that you have a richer gaming environment than EAW and have the potential to have campaigns as great or even greater than we saw on EAW.


Now, I'm not willing to go Cleaven's route and swear off EAW in favor of OP.  I'm here to play the game where it's fun.  I'll try and get more people to go over to OP not by just taking myself and leaving it at that.  I'll be around the EAW crowd throwing in my two cents regarding the merits of OP.  In the final analysis, I want to play SFC2 dyna and I'll go where the game is.  I think OP, if given the chance, will be the better game going forward.

I agree with Cleaven when he says, basically, we're never going to know about OP and/or it's never going to get any better if we don't all do out best to give it a try.



 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:

ED's Planet Assault script is your friend.. (neutral planets work best)
.. it gives you a nice juicy O-CA with 6 droneracks, 16? marines and 4 spareparts..


Tactics:

<snip>

Conclusion:
It doesn't matter if you're in a crappy ship. You're given a O-CA to help you bombard the planet. You just have to resist the temptation to use it against the enemy ships (and tell it not to attack). At the end of the mission, if all went well, you'll have stocked up on many spare parts, and marines too! ..


.. that, and you just brought the DV of a planet down a notch.



-- Luc  

ahahaha!  Oh, but it does matter, mon frer.    That only occurs when you fly Lyran or get Lyran AI as wingmen.  In my experience in the EAW missions, if you fly Klingon and get that Lyran/Orion help, you stand a good change of CTDing at some point in the mission.  I was never able to pinpoint the exact point or cause of the CTD, but it seemed like it happened if I got too close to the planet being attacked.  Three times I was withing range 4, CTD.  Two times, I stopped at about 5.99 and was able to complete the mission in both cases.


Trust me when I tell you that in two years, I can count on one hand the number of times I failed to take a planet I assaulted.  No problems there..heheheh.     The only mission I avoud these days is "Courier Intercept" because for some reason I just hate it.  Unless you're in a ship with beau coup punch, it's very difficult to win, though I have won it just about every time I have run it.  It's just that I ran so many on the Day of the Eagle campaign that I'm just sick of it..heheh.  They were mandatory on that server and often all you would get in enemy space.  Oof...



 

[FireSoul]

Quote:

ahahaha!  Oh, but it does matter, mon frer.    That only occurs when you fly Lyran or get Lyran AI as wingmen.  In my experience in the EAW missions, if you fly Klingon and get that Lyran/Orion help, you stand a good change of CTDing at some point in the mission.  I was never able to pinpoint the exact point or cause of the CTD, but it seemed like it happened if I got too close to the planet being attacked.  Three times I was withing range 4, CTD.  Two times, I stopped at about 5.99 and was able to complete the mission in both cases.

Very weird. I've never seen that happen to me..
.. oh well.. There's still the parts on the planet if you can kill it quickly enough.

Quote:

Trust me when I tell you that in two years, I can count on one hand the number of times I failed to take a planet I assaulted.  No problems there..heheheh.     The only mission I avoud these days is "Courier Intercept" because for some reason I just hate it.  Unless you're in a ship with beau coup punch, it's very difficult to win, though I have won it just about every time I have run it.  It's just that I ran so many on the Day of the Eagle campaign that I'm just sick of it..heheh.  They were mandatory on that server and often all you would get in enemy space.  Oof...

I have seen it too often too.. and yes, it does drive me a bit nuts to always do that, data recovery, or that damned freighter mission.
As for the perpetual "planet assault" on a neutral hex planet..  .. is there a way to get some variance there too?


-- Luc

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
I think you have hit on one of the big issues here with the map and cartels. With the ever shrinking player base, it may prove too tough to play OP races and cartels with any decent numbers.

Supply costs can be a big issue for drone races. I don't know what they are for the Reclamation server, but if they are prohibitive, expect fewer to play.

I like both EAW and OP (I have all four SFC titles). When we run 10-15 servers and you have about 50 people to chose from, it makes for a poor showing for most servers. Since players tend to gravitate to one or two, this leaves others empty. This can be both good and bad. It does force the admins to put up an interesting, fun, and different server. Otherwise, it's a ghost town on their game.

As for which game is better, that is a matter of personal opinion.

Well, in my humble opinion the pirates part of OP was a complete bomb.  It screwed up the game and flying pirate by and large sucks.  Take it from me...I earned 200K as a Syndicate captain on Rook's Tavern 3.  It sounds to me like that have figured out a way to basically remove them from the game in terms of cartel map interaction and that can only help because that was a major factor in the extent to which the OP dyna was 'broken."

There's been some bad blood about OP due to the way it was packaged and released that has hobbled the game, fairly or unfairly.  One thing that's for sure is that's unfortunate because it's a good game with the portential to be better than EAW if people would just play it.


As near as I can tell, drone prices aren't a problem on Reclamation.  It's the price of everything else, most notably marines and spare parts.  The difficulty level of the missions (in terms of the sheer damage you take from mission to mission) makes it very difficult to accumulate the prestige needed to get out of your starter ship (stock D5 for Klingons and it's about to click over to 2276).  I have finally gotten over the hump, though there hasn't been anything good in the two ships hitting the Klingon shipyards in the time I've been able to afford a better war destroyer variant.  I saw a D5L once...but at that time I had 6 PP and the price tag was 4,400.  


I own all four SFC titles too and I've been around these fora since SFC1 was in beta, so I definitely know where you're coming from, man.


 

[Fluf]

Orinally LB3 was going to be an OP server.  I personally think OP is a better game overall than EAW because of more options with ships, weapons and races.  The only drawback to OP has been the D2.  Once I saw SFCX was putting up Reclamation, I decided to hold off, mainly because these guys have more experience with OP and its settings.  However, I had many calls from players, saying they wanted a EAW campaign up for a fill in since SG3 was being delayed slightly for about 2 weeks.  So I threw LB3 together in 3 days just to give the players a place to play that didnt have OP.  I am very sorry if LB3 has taken away from Reclamation in players.  I really think OP should get some real testing now that some of the D2 bugs have been worked out.  

Oh and Moggy, you arent going anywhere!  This game just wouldnt be the same without ya.!

There is no difference between EAW and OP!  Its all the same people.  We have to work together here so that all can enjoy these games, whether it be EAW, OP or SFC3.  Lets pull together here folks.  

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
Firesoul, the O-CA was an addition given to Lyrans only for planet assaults, because of the long time it takes them to accomplish these missions.

Cleaven, thank you for your support, but I don't think that the dozen or so people who are interested in OP will be able to stress test the software enough to satisfy the high demands of the anti-OP brigade.

Scippy, I've tried to find this EAW-bashing of which you speak. I have been unable to. Unless, you mean that people saying that OP has the potential to be a better platform than EAW, is EAW bashing. Then, I plead guilty as charged. As for producing a killer campaign, please read my previous post. If a Galactic Powers v Andromedans campaign idea doesn't grab your imagination, then I honestly don't know what would.

Anyhow, the whole EAW/OP divide leaves me feeling extremely disenchanted with the game in general, so I may just quietly slip away, like so many of my friends who I've met over the years have done.  

Bah...get outta town, Moggy!  You're talkin' crazy, mah brutha.  There's no real "divide" betwen the two.  If there is, it's among a few people and not representative of the whole community.  I've seen OP servers loaded with players...players who play EAW.


Perhaps the "divide," if there is one, is between those who own the game and those who do not.  Some don't own it because they wanted tu punish the publisher or author because of the way OP was implemented/released.  I say we try and do soemthing to increase OP ownership.  Heh...as I said, I'd be willing to do my part to help subsidise the growth of the OP player base...heheh.  Maybe next time I'm out, I'll pick up any copies of OP I can find and offer them freely to anyone who wants to play OP but doesn't own the game or can't find it anywhere.

[jimmi7769]

Right there with you Dog, Like I said earlier I saw 3 copies on the bargain shelf at EB here if anyone is looking for a copy let me know.

[IndyShark]

Mogg, don't go! We'd miss you! I understand all of this arguement about EAW versus OP is just a Romulan plot anyway.

When they fix D2, OP will RULE! (ok, IF they fix it...)

Nomad, can we use the latest mission pack from EvilDave? I'd love to try the latest version on Reclamation. I understand he has rewritten the way you win pp and I'd like to see how that works.

[Mog]

Doggy, I'm a pessimistic moody barsteward when I haven't smoked a spliff. I vowed I'd try not to post in "controversial" threads when not stoned - I broke the vow and you see the result.

I just got irritated by the old EAW/OP arguments resurfacing again, after the latest OP patch had me excited about OP coming back. And you know, try as I might, I just cannot bring myself to leave SFC2 and all the friends I have here.  My most recently decided ambition is to be able to take 6 months off work, and inflict my weird English sense of humour on those friends in person. I doubt I'll ever be able to afford to do that, but I can live in hope.

Anyhow, I agree - OP has more potential than EAW (sorry Scippy but it's true) and it would make sense for everyone to move there. Taldren do seem to have an interest in improving the product still - the splitting and fixing of the TRB is proof of that. A weapon not even documented as being in the game gets fixed and tweaked to be more like SFB - I've "bashed" Taldren when I've felt they deserved it, but I am just as quick to praise them when they do something unexpectedly good This is one instance of that.

Doggy, you are a saint - again, if I could afford to, I'd do the same - send out copies of OP to whomever wanted/needed it.

I've talked with Nomad, and I believe he's going to lower the supplies prices to levels more in line with the mission payouts. I hope that this eliminates that reason for not coming and trying it out. All Reclamation needs is some more players on it - to stress test the dyna and (just as importantly) make that neutral space different bloody clolurs so co-op is then useful strategically.

Oh, and Karnak, this thread has been anything other than a flamefest. It's been very useful imo. I suggest you examine your own behaviour, past and present, before you cast yet another stone at people. It's not the first time you've jumped on someone for a petty thing.

[FireSoul]

Thing is..
.. I'd like to admit that I've been .. well.. unsupportive when it came to EAW. I still see it as a threat to OP-based play.
.. that started some weeks ago when another player went online to GSA to tell the people under the EAW GSA side of things that a new OP patch came out.
   .. the response was "OP? Bah! That's a DEAD game. Who cares!"

Since then, I've been completely 100% OP-only.  When asked about a EAW version of my shiplist, I kept telling people 'No. if I do that, people would stop playing OP and stick to EAW even more. I have to choose to be a bigot and not to help out."


.. And that has been my opinion.. that is until today. I didn't realize there were EAW players supporting OP at the same time. .. thanks guys, it makes me feel better.. some days I wonder if I spent too much time working on something that no one will use.


-- Luc
 

[Karnak]

Quote:

Quote:


What I see as a bigger danger to the community as a whole is all the snippy statements going around from admins in the last few weeks.  You want to drive programmers away from SFC development or potential programmers from mission scripting then let's just keep it up.  Same goes for people with campaign ideas that would love to admin a campaign. When they see the admins acting like this who in their right mind would consider the techies reliable enough to get  the job done.



Statements like "STFU" from admins only get people irritated and consider you a person to be ignored.  

You know,  I could go on and on about my commitments and time spent helping better this game and community, but I don't have the ego to go on and on about it like someone here.

What have you done so far ?  How long have you had friendships with people from this board?

If you knew some of these people half as well as I do, you'd know that sometimes Dizzy needs to be talked to in a manner that HE understands to make it stick.
 

You'll have to enlightend me on what exactly you've done for D2 in the last 6 months cuz I don't get impressed easily. So far, I've seen the following:

1)  Dizzy putting in mucho hours on SG3 certainly more hours than you have put in.
2)  Been given irresponsible assurances about web-casters and then dumped.

As for me, I'm trying to clean up the mess the SFC2.net admins are leaving behind, and getting quite tired off it, to be frank.  First, by getting SG3 going. Second, check out this thread and especially read KBF-Crim's comments:

http://www.bozobits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2045&start=0

As for saying a person needs to be yelled and cussed at to get the point across.  That's abusive behavior and you know it.  No one, and I mean no one deserves to be treated like that.  I assume you are an educated person you must have a more sophisticated vocabulary to draw on.

Do that one too many times in the workplace and you are fired. Go ahead and try it if you don't believe me.

You know I really don't feel good about doing all this SG3 cleanup for the SFC2.net admins.  Why don't you fire up your own Visual C++ compiler and cleanup your SFC2.net admin mess instead of relying on outsiders to do it.  If you can't then   I think it would be best it such people as yourself stay away from SG3. Because, if you do I will very much be tempted to ban your ass off the server. Why? Because, that's the way one has deal with people like you to get the message to stick.


 

[DH123]

One of the things that makes OP wnderful is the moddabilty.   The X-weapons, extra race slots, arpanded firing arcs, and all that make this game have much more potential for the future.  In OP, we literaly could do and all eras mod starting the time of Enterprise and ending with the dominion war.

I'm really glad D2 in OP now aparantly works.  The SFCX guys should adopt the SFC2.net ship and supplies prices if they want to improve their player base.  

Bring on the Andros!!!  

[jdmckinney]

By the way, I won't be making any changes to Reclamation settings until Friday night at the earliest. It's not because I don't want to; it's because I'm stuck in blasted northern Ohio on business. If I'd been home yesterday, I'd have changed the supply costs then.

Castrin will have to do it, so if anyone has a concrete per-item value they'd recommend for each supply type, please post it here ASAP. Maybe he can be talked into finding time to change the settings and burp the server to implement them tonight.

[wanderer]

 

Quote:
  It starting to get to the point where I think I should start asking for Forum moderator intervention for the good of D2.

Dude, you SO need to get over yourself. I mean, seriously, you're gonna go TELL?

It's cool that you feel you're backing Dizzy, loyalty is cool, but remember, this is Dizzy we're talking about. DIZZY! Lovable, irrepressable, bigmouthed, gets under your skin, STFU Dizzy. Hello?

Oh, and btw, this is a thread about Reclamation, not your impressive resume of work. Sheesh.

Wanderer the buttinski    

[Fluf]

Nomad,

   These are the settings I am using for LB3.  They are pretty much consistant with the supplys the SFC2.net team has used from CW6 on.  They seem to match up well with current mission packs.  If I remember, they seem pretty close to what was used on Rooks Tavern III too.

[Cost/Ship/SupplyDock]
Repair      = 3.0
TradeIn      = 6.0
Missiles   = 2.5 //9.0
Fighters   = 3.0 //6.0
Shuttles   = 3.0 //12.0
Marines      = 4.0 //15.0
Mines      = 2.0 //18.0
SpareParts   = 4.0 //30.0

The problem is, with the new mission packs, consumables become a must.  In order to keep casual players going, and progressing towards a bigger ship, especailly when they are flying in some of these missions, prices must be lowered to keep the "Fun Factor" in the game.
 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Quote:
One of the things that makes OP wnderful is the moddabilty.   The X-weapons, extra race slots, arpanded firing arcs, and all that make this game have much more potential for the future.  In OP, we literaly could do and all eras mod starting the time of Enterprise and ending with the dominion war.

I'm really glad D2 in OP now aparantly works.  The SFCX guys should adopt the SFC2.net ship and supplies prices if they want to improve their player base.  

Bring on the Andros!!!    

Who ARE you, you big mystery person, you!?  (Damn..that's a lot of the word "you" in that sentence).


I agree on all accounts, eh?  One of the things that always bugged me about EAW was the lack of Klingon boom-arcs.  In OP we have them and that is good.  


 

[DiggityDank]

Quote:
 My most recently decided ambition is to be able to take 6 months off work, and inflict my weird English sense of humour on those friends in person. I doubt I'll ever be able to afford to do that, but I can live in hope.
 

You're always welcome at pool night my friend

[jdmckinney]

Fluf, thanks for posting those settings.

The one big problem I have here is with cheap repair parts. With the current very strange limits on spares, a number of big ships can get through fights with smaller ships simply on the strength of their repair loadout and enough time. Moggy pointed this out to me as a problem he ran into a lot on a campaign.

So, to me there need to be some cost controls on spares so that a big ship  that is constantly using up large numbers of spares to survive is going to eat up prestige along the lines of what they would have to pay for constant dock repairs and possibly some amount of additional maintenance that they're not spending on replacement ships. I would think 12 repairs should cost no more than half the normal mission success prestige, or 150. This would mean someone who spends about 25 repairs per mission is not going to make any prestige. That comes to about 12.5 PP per repair part. Is that unreasonable? Say we round it down to 10 -- then 30 parts is going to cost you a mission award.

On Reclamation, I have a DCWLP with 25 spare slots. If I use them all, which I've only done once so far, a 10 PP cost would end up taking 250 PP out of my winnings. Now, if I use that many parts, I probably also have a hefty repair and resupply bill. Still, if I'm taking missions with such rough opposition every time out, then I deserve to pay through the nose and sweat for my cash. Against the AI, if I'm finding missions too tough to afford the repair/resupply, then I should find players to coop with (of course, this means working around neutral coop in campaign design).

Here's what I want to know -- can players stomach this sort of cost once in a while? I mean, how often do you get such tough opposition that this would really come into play?

Maybe I'm just horribly out of touch with players' preferences, but doesn't anyone want to actually have to earn their ship upgrades? Promotions are there to allow you to get windfalls by making prestige on missions, even if you can't save it. Maybe we also need to request more prestige award variety from the mission scripters. Personally, I get a little tired of earning the same 300 prestige all the time. It would be nice if really tough, long (especially the long ones, since you can't run them as often) missions gave me an award commensurate with my effort. So, say 750 for assault missions where there are a lot of defenders and installations, or 400 for completing a Fleet Action or other 3v3 (or worse with fleets) mission, or 500 for destroying everything in a Courier Intercept. It's all a fine line, with settings, play time, and missions all being important variables.

I offer up these examples as fodder for coming up with some good numbers to use as guides. If these are too costly, then what's a better solution? I'm sure everyone has an opinion on this, so let's hear it.

[CptCastrin]

Quote:
Nomad, can we use the latest mission pack from EvilDave? I'd love to try the latest version on Reclamation. I understand he has rewritten the way you win pp and I'd like to see how that works.  

Is there a new pack?  

[jdmckinney]

Ooops, yes, he uploaded a new one. It was after I left town, so I couldn't update it. The download URL is the same, so ...

[Cleaven]

Quote:

Quote:
 My most recently decided ambition is to be able to take 6 months off work, and inflict my weird English sense of humour on those friends in person. I doubt I'll ever be able to afford to do that, but I can live in hope.
 

You're always welcome at pool night my friend  

I encountered an Englishman with a similar accent to Mog's while crossing the Rockies by train just after the snows had finished. His idea of fun was to come out on the open end of the train with me and laugh at me in my thick jacket and gloves while he was wearing a short sleeve shirt. He was clearly quite mad but good company none the less and the scenery was quite brilliant. I suppose the rest of the tour was laughing at the two silly foreigners out the back in freezing temperatures with their cameras.  

[NuclearWessels]

Hmmm ... before you replace the mission pack on Reclamation ...

If you want to wait about 24 hours I should have the asteroid base defense/assault missions ready to throw back in the mix.   I think they're ready, but want to do some more testing on them tomorrow to be sure.

dave
 

[Fluf]

Nomad, I agree, with the higher number of spare parts on ships now,  and it can be a problem.  However, what you have to watch for is hurting some of the drone races.  By late era, and fast drones, a full load of drones can sometimes cost you 1/2 your prestige in just reloading, much less repairs and other supplies.  Althugh since Dave has toned down the missions some from previous packs, this might not be as much of a problem as in the past.  Scipios 4Powers Server started with spares at 50 apeice and we had partically "Evil" Dave missions.  You ended up worring more about how many spares you could steal off of ships, rather than killing them.  Even the stock Taldren setting of 30 is tough.  Although the drone races do ok in early and even through mid, by late era, this high spare parts becomes a big factor, expecially for the Mirak and Klingons.  So just keep this in mind when doing your settings.

[CptCastrin]

Quote:
Nomad,

   These are the settings I am using for LB3.  They are pretty much consistant with the supplys the SFC2.net team has used from CW6 on.  They seem to match up well with current mission packs.  If I remember, they seem pretty close to what was used on Rooks Tavern III too.

[Cost/Ship/SupplyDock]
Repair      = 3.0
TradeIn      = 6.0
Missiles   = 2.5 //9.0
Fighters   = 3.0 //6.0
Shuttles   = 3.0 //12.0
Marines      = 4.0 //15.0
Mines      = 2.0 //18.0
SpareParts   = 4.0 //30.0

The problem is, with the new mission packs, consumables become a must.  In order to keep casual players going, and progressing towards a bigger ship, especailly when they are flying in some of these missions, prices must be lowered to keep the "Fun Factor" in the game.
 

Not bad pricing and pretty close to how they were set on Badlands:

[Cost/Ship/SupplyDock]
Repair      = 2.0
TradeIn      = 1.0  // understand that on Badlands the MinimumBidFactor was 1.0
Missiles   = 1.0
Fighters   = 6.0
Shuttles   = 1.0
Marines      = 4.0
Mines      = 2.0
SpareParts   = 5.0

It's hummorous to note that all durring the time that Badlands was running I didn't see many of those that say "well if pricing was better I'd be there in an instant" but then Badlands was certainly not a campaign server anyway. Goals as much as price govern where people play and ceratinly other factors as well.  

Currently the pricing on Reclamation is:

[Cost/Ship/SupplyDock]
Repair      = 3.0
TradeIn      = 3.0
Missiles   = 3.0
Fighters   = 12.0
Shuttles   = 6.0
Marines      = 12.0
Mines      = 8.0
SpareParts   = 15.0

so there is certainly some room for tweaks here.

If I were to propose changes (at least a starting point maybe) then here is what I'd suggest:

[Cost/Ship/SupplyDock]
Repair      = 5.0
TradeIn      = 4.5
Missiles   = 2.0
Fighters   = 8.0
Shuttles   = 5.0
Marines      = 6.0
Mines      = 3.0
SpareParts   = 5.0

If I have it figured out right the above would reward those that can survive through a battle and after ward still have an operational ship but if you survive and have to get further repairs at a dock you will pay a hefty price. In either case the shock to one's  prestiege  for having to drag your ship to port should be more "damaging" than if you get those field repairs done.

Just some thoughts on the subject. I welcome commentary.    

[Cleaven]

Quote:
Nomad, I agree, with the higher number of spare parts on ships now,  and it can be a problem.  However, what you have to watch for is hurting some of the drone races.  By late era, and fast drones, a full load of drones can sometimes cost you 1/2 your prestige in just reloading, much less repairs and other supplies.  Althugh since Dave has toned down the missions some from previous packs, this might not be as much of a problem as in the past.  Scipios 4Powers Server started with spares at 50 apeice and we had partically "Evil" Dave missions.  You ended up worring more about how many spares you could steal off of ships, rather than killing them.  Even the stock Taldren setting of 30 is tough.  Although the drone races do ok in early and even through mid, by late era, this high spare parts becomes a big factor, expecially for the Mirak and Klingons.  So just keep this in mind when doing your settings.  

What happens if you use the Era breaks to stop the system and change the pricing. I don't think a take down at those times would hurt things too much, especially if people think that the economies of empires at war would reflect a change where the relative price of a drone or marine or spare comes down as the war progresses.  

[Fluf]

Interesting suggestion Cleaven.  That might be a way to control things a little better.

[CptCastrin]

Not a bad idea, you could map out the break points and set it up so a quick line edit and reboot changes things.  You could even use certain years (beyond the era breaks) as break points thus reflecting the initial cost of new tech then lowering the cost as the era progresses.

It's a manual fix but worthy of  a try.    

[**DONOTDELETE**]

To anyone who has read  my comments in the referenced thread....

Dont misunderstand what I have said....

There is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water....Things are MUCH better than they once were...

But while we seek the ultimate gaming experience...we need to keep our eye on the goal...

FUN!

We must find a way to BOTH challenge the hardcore 8 hr player AND give meaningful gametime to the guys who drop in when they can...

In a perfect world...the game would become more difficult based on your glicko....

Or maybe....the higher the rank.....the more restrictions apply....not less...

I DO like custom missions...

I Do like a fair and balanced shiplist....

I do like winning a battle when odds where against me....

I dont like seeing the player base thinned.....

Somewhere between ridiculously easy and impossible is a happy medium....

IMHO...AOTK was "to date".....the closest to perfect server I have played....enough of a challenge to nutters....and the abilty of the casual player to aid the war effort....









 

[Cleaven]

Dropping the max number of spares available back to a reasonable number (even if it's the same for all hulls) would take a bit of pressure off the higher pricing of spares.

I must agree with the current price of the spares in so far as they do limit me to carrying 8 or so in a destroyer, and now that I have a CL I can afford to buy a few more to take into battle. So the logic behind the price is in fact correct in my opinion, but just not popular perhaps.  

[Dizzy]

I'm not surprised of the resurfacing ill will between players for their love/hate of EAW and OP. I really think it is a cruel joke by Taldren and we are caught in the middle.

Anyways, I have to address Capt. Jeff. I dont think, Jeff, that anything I said warranted the response you gave me. Perhaps you missed an earlier post where I expressed my hope that SG3 would be able to work on OP. I talked with Castrin at length about it before making my decision. Jeff, I dont think you know the bottomless pit of despair I fell into when I found I couldnt use OP.
  Luckily, I climbed out b4 it was flushed...

There are 2 primary reasons that SG3 didnt show up on OP's radar. First, after the recent OP GSA patch, it still left D2 unaddressed and in tatters, remember, there is still supposed to be another D2 patch... Second, the subsequent testing of the D2 that followed by the sfcx team revealed horrors far beyond the problems I dealt with on the original SG.

So with as much work as I had left to do on SG3, which btw, Karnak, has taken DAYS instead of hours, forced me to pick a platform that gave me far fewer options than I had hoped to have, Jeff...

At this point of developement... I could push SG3 back, and let Karnak use the SG3 missions, shiplist and ideas to further infuse his already stellar ISC Invasion server and take SG3 to OP. I would need the complete and total support of every single SFCX member in order to do it, and it would launch, OP willing, after ISC Invasion ends.

That is a big IF. Some of the SFCX members dont like me and that feeling is mutual. Obstacle #2 would be to get a solid effort on every level of OP from every OP player and admin to work to clean up the mess Taldren left us with. Third prob. would be getting it to a level where the leftover unfixable OP D2 problems wouldnt severely interfere with a campaign.

So... I'm really neutral on this. I'd prefer to use OP... I mean who wouldn't?

But Jeff, lets layoff the smack talk... Have I ever told you to stfu?

[Capt Jeff]

Dizzy,

After all the SFTU's dished out by you over the years (yes, including one or two directed at me), I am touched that you are upset that I threw one back at you.  Who knew you cared???  

Dizzy....I want SG3 to succeed, no matter what platform  it operates on.  I want all servers to succeed because they are what keeps this going....if there is to be only one server running at a time, it needs to be good enough to keep everyone interested.   So, I hope for the best for you, and understand the difficulties  of putting together a grand campaign.

so, can we all be friends??  

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

 

Quote:
 What happens if you use the Era breaks to stop the system and change the pricing. I don't think a take down at those times would hurt things too much, especially if people think that the economies of empires at war would reflect a change where the relative price of a drone or marine or spare comes down as the war progresses.  

Cleaven,

Outstanding idea. This allows feedback during the campaign to be usefull while the campaign is ongoing.

[Mog]

Quote:
snip

There are 2 primary reasons that SG3 didnt show up on OP's radar. First, after the recent OP GSA patch, it still left D2 unaddressed and in tatters, remember, there is still supposed to be another D2 patch... Second, the subsequent testing of the D2 that followed by the sfcx team revealed horrors far beyond the problems I dealt with on the original SG.

snip

As one of the SFCX members involved in this initial testing following the 2538 patch, please enlighten me in detail on these supposed "horrors" that we found.

Whilst I'm waiting for that to happen, please allow me to tell you what we have found.

The pirate cartel interaction with the empire layer now allows raising of DV when the pirate layer is neutral. This is a huge and positive change from the previous version. It brings the DV boosting process up to the same level as EAW.

The mission speed bug has gone. Now, the Federation and pirates no longer have an unfair advantage in being able to run missions at game speed 11.

Neutral co-op not affecting DV is still around. EAW still has that too.

Shiplist. OP can now contain double the number of ship entries that EAW can. Add to that OP has double the number of "race slots".

To me, that makes it look like OP is at least equal to EAW as a D2 platform. The "horrors" you allude to do not seem to be there. Language like that is unnecessary and only serves to put people off from playing on OP.

If this post looks like an attack on you Dizzy, remember that I am one of the people who have publicly sided with you in the past on various issues, and also remember that I try to view all subjects of debate with an open mind, and will usually only respond to someone negatively when they have posted something either inaccurate or just simply wrong. In this instance, I cannot fathom what these "horrors" might be, hence the tone of this post.

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

 

Quote:
 The pirate cartel interaction with the empire layer now allows raising of DV when the pirate layer is neutral. This is a huge and positive change from the previous version. It brings the DV boosting process up to the same level as EAW.
 

This in and of itself is very cool. It will go a long way in establishing OP's D2 play as more enjoyable.  

[jdmckinney]

Back to the topic of supplies, seeing the settings next to each other makes it obvious why players were feeling the pressure on their wallets -- there's such a wide difference from what they're used to.

That said, I like Castrin's idea of making in-dock repair more expensive. That way, even if you use all your spares in a mission, you are still going to have a mean repair bill because hull is not repairable. If a smaller ship is able to beat up a bigger one enough even in a losing cause, it will be a moral victory just being able to cost your opponent some dough.

We can't go back to 8 spares max, because it is not a settings-controlled variable, but a code change. So, we have to find that happy medium.

I DO like the idea of having price changes over time. For instance, at mid era, medium drones should be pretty pricey, but affordable. Instead of then seeing fast drones at double that price when they come out, you could edit the prices so fast ones now cost what medium ones did, and the mediums become half as expensive. This way, it's the same cost per drone to keep a ship stocked in any given era, or you get rewarded with savings by using lesser drones.

Similarly, repairs and spares could be made less expensive at the beginning of a campaign, to help players bear the burden of weak ships, and then become pricier as the campaign advances, reflecting the difficulty in keeping up with the demand for new ship parts and the price of training crew -- after all, if you come home wounded, chances are you lost crew, who have to be replaced.

Marines can probably be made reasonable again as long as you take out of the shipyard (class as special) the over-the-top commando tugs and what have you that load near a hundred or even more boarding parties.

Mines I don't think need to be all that expensive -- they are not usually a balance issue as far as I know.

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

It's too bad supply dock prices can't be controlled by hull class.

 

Quote:
 Mines I don't think need to be all that expensive -- they are not usually a balance issue as far as I know.

These should be controlled by player account. J'inn should not be able to afford any so he can't T-bomb an ally.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

That all sounds pretty reasonable to me, Nomad.  I even like the idea of the expensive dock repairs in lieu of expensive spare parts...as long as we don't go completely crazy with that, too.  More expensive is fine on that.  Too espensive is not, of course.  I'm not sure atr what level this would become egregious.  I know when I finished a mission on LB3 yesterday (barely won one of those furball fleet actions and I was the last ship standing out of 12 that started), I spent about 200 points on hull repairs and then another 300 or more restocking my ship.  Good thing the mission payoff was 1200 pp.  If it were the usual 300-500 pp, it would have sucked--- yea, verily.


All expensive supplies do is make it hard to get started.  They have little effect once you've gotten the war machine rolling and have amassed a decent bankroll.  That being the case, I just don't see the point of flogging each new captain to the server until he doesn't wanna play anymore...heheh.




And Moggy...your comments are in line with what I understand to be the state of OP D2, so I'm not real sure what Dizzy is talking about when he says the patch left the OP D2 "in tatters" or whatever.  That's completely different from everything else I've heard and seen on the subject.

[FireSoul]

Quote:
 ... I'm not real sure what Dizzy is talking about when he says the patch left the OP D2 "in tatters" or whatever.

Tasty Taters maybe?
Seriously, I've poured a lot of work into that patch, and I will admit a lot of the delay was my fault.. but .. the patch is rock solid for what it was supposed to do.
 

[FireSoul]

Quote:
 

Quote:
 Not for OP?

More people play EAW online(30-50) vs OP (7-12)..  

 http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB12&Number=72933



That's EXACTLY why I didn't make a EAW+ refit shiplist.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Unfortunate (in both cases).  If I could do either, I would.  



 

[FireSoul]

Quote:
Unfortunate (in both cases).  If I could do either, I would.  
 

This thread made me think..
.. if I made a "EAW+" .. would it impact OP player numbers? Would LESS people play OP because a similar shiplist would exist for EAW?

.. because I could create a EAW shiplist faster than most people could imagine.. all through perl scripting.
- nuke maulers
- change KFX to FX,
- nuke X stuff.  (entire advanced era)  
- nuke LDR and WYN ships
- nuke any entries that don't have a corresponding model in EAW.
- nuke extra pirate cartels

.. but seriously.. would it HURT OP if I did that?

[Dizzy]

 

Quote:
 Mog wrote:

As one of the SFCX members involved in this initial testing following the 2538 patch, please enlighten me in detail on these supposed "horrors" that we found.

Whilst I'm waiting for that to happen, please allow me to tell you what we have found.

The pirate cartel interaction with the empire layer now allows raising of DV when the pirate layer is neutral. This is a huge and positive change from the previous version. It brings the DV boosting process up to the same level as EAW.

The mission speed bug has gone. Now, the Federation and pirates no longer have an unfair advantage in being able to run missions at game speed 11.

Neutral co-op not affecting DV is still around. EAW still has that too.

Shiplist. OP can now contain double the number of ship entries that EAW can. Add to that OP has double the number of "race slots".

To me, that makes it look like OP is at least equal to EAW as a D2 platform. The "horrors" you allude to do not seem to be there. Language like that is unnecessary and only serves to put people off from playing on OP.

I will be pretty upset to know that OP works as good as EAW... cosidering all the time I have spent getting SG3 ready... and making the decision to go with EAW because OP didnt work right... or does it?

http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=69517&page=4&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1

http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=64355&page=7&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=21&fpart=1

http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=54781&page=11&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1

http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=48739&page=12&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1

Those are just a few threads of many where there are a SLEW of [censored] that you guys cant get or dont know how to work.

Now answer me this: Dont you kinda think that its a little weird by now, after what a year or more of this game being out, that it isnt fixed yet? I mean... doesnt this strike you as odd? What must we do to get the fricking game to work?

I dont know about you, but damn... I think that is whacked. Anyone who puts out a game and has it out for this long ought to at least get it to work a little better than it does... I just find this all surprising...

Ok. If you sfcx ppl think OP is ready for SG3, it doesnt seem to be, you guys are testing it like OP is a frickin beta product, then go ahead and tell me why.

Or tell me why not. Hell just tell me why SG3 would be better on OP than EAW. I'll listen. I want it on OP. I picked EAW cuz of the talk me and castrin had. I decided that since u guys couldnt get straight and consistent results on DV changes, among other things, that OP just wasnt ready for prime time. Now you are telling me that OP is ready? Really? Its all fixed? No D2 problems? I mustve missed that post... It sure as hell should have been an important one.

So tell me, while I am suddenly open to suggestion, is OP ready for a campaign like SG3? Why? And would you guys support me and SG3 if it went to OP just as if it were your own server?

 

[NuclearWessels]

Heya Diz,

with respect to the four threads you referenced, the overwhelming majority of the issues were with the first release of my scripts in OP, not dyna issues.

Thread (1) is the neutral coop issue - exact same problem exists in EAW

Thread (2) was server setting and mission script issues (remember this was the very first release of the ED missions on OP and the first use of the OP+ shiplist campaign-wise, so there were bound to be bugs - most of those have now been addressed)

Thread (3) was pretty much all scripting bugs from what I could see, and most of those have now been addressed

Thread (4), again from what I could see, was a combination of shiplist and script bugs

Translation - none of those bugs were D2 issues except the one big one that also exists in EAW.

dave
   

[FireSoul]

Quote:

Now answer me this: Dont you kinda think that its a little weird by now, after what a year or more of this game being out, that it isnt fixed yet? I mean... doesnt this strike you as odd? What must we do to get the fricking game to work?

You REALLY want to know?

.. Fine. Someone rich needs to HIRE MagnumMan to fix the OP D2 and all other things. He did all the work for EAW for free and now if any more work is to be done, he wants to be paid for it, because he's got to be able to LIVE. THAT's what someone needs to do.

This game wouldn't even be in a playable shape right now if it wasn't for him, and because all his free work went towards EAW, you take it for granted like it's a better game.

There's your answer. EAW was [censored] too once and OP is in far better shape than you give it credit.

Getting pissed off at game-bigots,
-- Luc

[FPF_TraceyG]

I'd be more than happy to fix OP if I had the source code.

[FPF_TraceyG]

Actually, if I had the source code... I'd probably turn it into GAW... <dream sequence music starts playing in the background>

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Quote:

Now answer me this: Dont you kinda think that its a little weird by now, after what a year or more of this game being out, that it isnt fixed yet? I mean... doesnt this strike you as odd? What must we do to get the fricking game to work?

You REALLY want to know?

.. Fine. Someone rich needs to HIRE MagnumMan to fix the OP D2 and all other things. He did all the work for EAW for free and now if any more work is to be done, he wants to be paid for it, because he's got to be able to LIVE. THAT's what someone needs to do.

This game wouldn't even be in a playable shape right now if it wasn't for him, and because all his free work went towards EAW, you take it for granted like it's a better game.

There's your answer. EAW was [censored] too once and OP is in far better shape than you give it credit.

Getting pissed off at game-bigots,
-- Luc  

Dont get ur feathers ruffled, FS.

How much money does Magnum man want? Oops... let Tracey do it She's cheap

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD>>> Someone please run me a list of OP D2 related so far unfixable problems.

[FireSoul]

Quote:
I'd be more than happy to fix OP if I had the source code.  

I believe DavidF stated no new deals with new people..
.. but in Mag's case, I think they approached him and he turned them down.


.. so I'm saying they would refuse you Tracey, but not Mags. Sorry.

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

 

Quote:
 FOR THE LOVE OF GOD>>> Someone please run me a list of OP D2 related so far unfixable problems.

D2 related unfixable #1: Dizzy not involved in a flame thread.  

[CptCastrin]

Quote:

Now answer me this: Dont you kinda think that its a little weird by now, after what a year or more of this game being out, that it isnt fixed yet? I mean... doesnt this strike you as odd? What must we do to get the fricking game to work?

I dont know about you, but damn... I think that is whacked. Anyone who puts out a game and has it out for this long ought to at least get it to work a little better than it does... I just find this all surprising...

No comment, I prefer not to get banned or lose my testers rights.

I will say this however, Dave (@Taldren) has continued slow (read very slow because of other demands on his time) but thoughtful work on SFC:OP as well as other things. Not much but it does count AFAIK.

Quote:
Ok. If you sfcx ppl think OP is ready for SG3, it doesnt seem to be, you guys are testing it like OP is a frickin beta product, then go ahead and tell me why.

Well we really are past the "beta" stage now Diz, honestly if it were as bad as it was we wouldn't be running a campaign on it. True that Reclamation isn't a "serious" campaign, it's more a light hearted, mini-campaign but it does have VCs and it does have goals. I don't (nor does Nomad, the lead admin on this run) need the headaches of a campaign that is fubared from the begining.

The key we have found is not just the server (which has had some work done to it) but the scripts. The stock scripts for OP are, honestly, crap. They seem to not even follow their own rules. NW's scripts have fixed many problems in said scripts but nothing is perfect mind you. We still have a coop bug (getting better) and though DV raising and lowering is vastly improved it's still not 100%.

Quote:
Or tell me why not. Hell just tell me why SG3 would be better on OP than EAW. I'll listen. I want it on OP. I picked EAW cuz of the talk me and castrin had. I decided that since u guys couldnt get straight and consistent results on DV changes, among other things, that OP just wasnt ready for prime time. Now you are telling me that OP is ready? Really? Its all fixed? No D2 problems? I mustve missed that post... It sure as hell should have been an important one.

So tell me, while I am suddenly open to suggestion, is OP ready for a campaign like SG3? Why?

I can't. In the end it's your call, I'll not try to convince you one way or the other.

However I will say this, it'd be a shame to stall SG3 after the work you (and others) have put into it and "porting" it to OP could do that. Since you have planed it for EaW all along then I'd say run it there and plan SG4 for OP. It's not that I think EaW is fundamentally better but that SG3 has always been planed for it and there is no over-riding reason to second guess yourself.

Quote:
 And would you guys support me and SG3 if it went to OP just as if it were your own server?

If you run it in EaW or OP, we in SFCx will support you as we can. We are not like SFC2.net with lots of resorces for scripting and what not. We never have and probably never will. We're just a bunch of friends that try to run some cool D2 servers as a team. But what we can do we will regardless of where you run SG3.    

[EmeraldEdge]

Quote:

Quote:
Now answer me this: Dont you kinda think that its a little weird by now, after what a year or more of this game being out, that it isnt fixed yet? I mean... doesnt this strike you as odd? What must we do to get the fricking game to work?

I dont know about you, but damn... I think that is whacked. Anyone who puts out a game and has it out for this long ought to at least get it to work a little better than it does... I just find this all surprising...

No comment, I prefer not to get banned or lose my testers rights.

I will say this however, Dave (@Taldren) has continued slow (read very slow because of other demands on his time) but thoughtful work on SFC:OP as well as other things. Not much but it does count AFAIK.

Heh, it's good to learn from others mistakes, eh?  Although I'm not sure I would classify what I said as a mistake, since I feel it was the truth and not out of line, in fact was rather tame in comparison to what others have said.  As far as other things, they were just taken out of context and not read through properly due to state of mind of the reader so...  

Just for the record though , it was over a year without a patch of any kind, and at least 6 months before that, that the game was released, I believe.  We'll be closing on the game being out for over 2 years here soon, although I don't remember the exact date I believe it was late July to early June (for some reason the 4th or 6th come to mind).  Until now, only a couple of almost insignificant fixes, along with the addition of some fairly major bugs, is what the D2 has recieved.  It's nice to see it's finally had some attention, it's just too bad it came so late in the game.

As far as some other things.  I may have trouble with the way Dizzy comports himself, but I have helped him in the past and am always willing to do so.  That's what we started SFCX for after all, to help others to expand the game.  My time is limited and eratic lately (due to some health issues), though, I haven't even been much help to the SFCX group.  Hopefully I'll be able to get back into full action soon.    

[CptCastrin]

Quote:
All expensive supplies do is make it hard to get started.  They have little effect once you've gotten the war machine rolling and have amassed a decent bankroll.  That being the case, I just don't see the point of flogging each new captain to the server until he doesn't wanna play anymore...heheh.

And on that note I'd invite all those disenchanted with the pricing on Reclamation to give it a second chance.

Prices have been changed and the yards are now well stocked.

We went with the high dock repair premium but spares are rather cheap so if you feel gutsy you can always repair in combat. But regardless I'd like feedback on how things are now so please speak up.

And thanks for all the great feedback to date.    

[KBF-Dogmatix]

The reduced supply costs are much appreciated.  I think they will definitely help people get started and get to the 4.5K or so they need to get into a decent war destroyer.


Speaking of which...I finally got to bid on a D5L this morning on Reclamation!   YAY!  I just can't stand the D5W and that's what I'd been flying for the last day and a half.  It's just too slow vs. plasma boats and all I'm seeing is Gorn AI.  It's ironic, the timeline is farther ahead on LB3 and I have yet to see a single D5L in the yard on that server.  I never would have guessed I'd get one on Reclamation first.  Wacky...


Having a good time on both server, though.  Fighting plasma or Mirak drones in ED missions is always a good challenge.