Topic: Maybe Trek IS dying...?

[Whiplash]

Lots more shooting ships? Yeah, I'd like it. Won't work, though. It would get too dull. Even in Star Wars, the amount of time zooming around on a fighter's tail blasting away isn't that much. They have as much as they do only because it is a movie, not a series. Too have lots of it, it needs to be more sophisticated.

Are there any war TV series on right now? How many have there ever been? MASH does not count. It was a comedy, not an action show. You can't do enough with war to build a series around. Trek combat is particularly dumbed down. There is a lot more to worry about in today's warfare than in Trek combat.

Most of the characters are too stilted. The Federation is boring. Admit it. There haven't been any really interesting characters since Picard and Data. Even a knock-off of Kirk, Spock, Picard or Data would be inadequate, even silly.

To survive, Trek is going to have to move in some different directions than they have. Maybe they need a Betazoid psychic espionage agent. Or maybe someone with some strange powers even they don't understand fully, someone who is being sought by all the races,  and can't even turn to the Federation due to that secret group that made the Founder disease. Whatever. Something dark, dangerous, people with issues. Or something simpler that incorporates some suppressed romance like they do in Smallville, or the stuff they did in Moonlighting years back. You know what I mean.

They have the chance to introduce some more interesting elements into Enterprise still. Let's hope they do with this "new direction" they are talking about.

W.
 

[Magnum357]

Hey Lepton1, sorry to hear you didn't see much of the Dominion War.  In my opinion, Seasons 5 to 7 was probably the best of the DS9 series.  If you wanted space battles, these two seasons would have been up your ally!  But still not enough in my opinion.  But I could see why some Trek fans got turned off by Ds9.  Once they focused on war with the series, some of the Trek purists got turned off because DS9 wasn't turning into "seek out new life and new civilizations" type Star Trek anymore.  If you ever do watch DS9 episodes, try to consider the perspective more like Star Fleet Battles then Star Trek.  

The one good thing about DS9 was that it kept pretty close to very few  inconsistancies yet an interesting story in my opinion.  To this day, I just don't understand why people are so negative torward DS9.  I would not mind at all if Enterprise was geared like DS9.  I even think the Temperal Cold war idea was interesting, but it would be nice if B & B would at least let us know if this Temperal Cold war has already effected the time line.  That way, it would make a little better sense (just barely though) in why the series has so many inconsitancies.  

[Firestorm]

Quote:
Here is just a minor list of good shows with a good following that have died do to reasons out of the viewers control.

 BattleStar Galactica : To costly and cutting edge moral classes (Socialator ie, "Prostitute") Needed more of a Family appeal and sufferd for it.

Still one of my Favorites, they ran Season One just a while back as sort of a mini-marathon, loved it!!!!   Dunno why, I just do.....

[Firestorm]

Quote:
BattleStar Galactica was sued for copyright infringement by the Star Wars camp. There was also production cost issues that the ratings didn't justify. BTW BattleStar Galactica is being remade by Sci-Fi, although I question its marketability as there are major changes being done. Such as Starbuck being recast as a female. I guess we will have to wait and see.

hmmmm, femail Starbuck, well, you know she will be a babe, think Xena of the 24th century(or whatever century they are).

[E_Look]

 

Quote:
... Space: Above and Beyond: This show was captivating, energetic and original yet familiar. It had great acting, great stories and great character development. It took the "focus on the people, not the technology" approach and pulled it off perfectly. I was in the US Army at the time this show dissapeared, and having been one of the troops fighting the first Gulf War, I loved the show, because I could relate to the characters and their daily plight. I was very sad to learn of it's cancellation. A huge mistake by the network, this show could have gone all the way...  

I agree with this.  It seemed so "within reach" given even our present faulty shuttle technology.  It also seems like what it would actually be like if we could "cross Star Trek with reality".  What I like most are not even the dramatic elements or the science fiction elements; I love the portrayal of the U.S. military, notably the Marines, in outer space.  It beats the portrayal of space age U.S. Marines in James Bond.  If a real soldier like you saw the realism in the personal side of the show, you know it was well researched and thought out before they let it air.  I, too, am blue that this show is no longer on.

What potential it had!  Wouldn't it have been cool to see a spaceborne U.S. military under various future leaders, say an expansionist one like Andrew Jackson, another like the ever so shaky John Kennedy or quagmirish Lyndon Johnson, or one like either of the Bushes, under the further guidance of "overwhelming might" (sort of like the all powerful Federation and Starfleet of early TNG).  What would carpet bombing look like from space?  (Like mirror Spock's preprogrammed phaser barrage?)  We already know what dogfighting in space could be like, but can't get enough of that on the screen!  Or, what could a hunt for the Bismarck or Schoenhorst look like in space?  (Don't tell me "Balance of Terror"; it   must   be grander [yet more tedious] than that.)  Or, even, PIckett's charge?

Alas...    

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If Trek doesnt die, it will need a serious enema to clean out the B+B feces it is currently impacted with.

TOS was campy, but it was SUPPOSED to be, it was the '60's after all! Go-go boots and mini-skirts, oh my.  The reason the TNG/DS9/Voy chars dont have the depth of the TOS chars is quite simply due to the fact that there are so MANY of them.

Ever hear the term "The Enterprise three"? Kirk, Spock and McCoy.  Mix in a wee bit of Scotty, Sulu, Chekov and Uhura for fill, but K,S + M WERE TOS. In TNG, GR tried to split all his characters up...

Kirk = Riker the lover and warrior, Picard the thinker and diplomat.
Spock = Troi the telepath and Captains confidant and Data the thinker and semi-unstoppable defender of the Captains ass.
Scotty = Geordi the "almost" miracle worker and O'Brien the engineer turned transporter operator.
McCoy = Guinan the bartender (Romulan ale? Why Bones, you KNOW this is illegal...) and Crusher the empathic healer.

After a few seasons worth of growth, these characters WORKED, and only got better with time. Worst thing they did was take TNG off TV. (Besides taking TOS off the air, of course!) I watched DS9 pretty regularly up until the Dominion wars started... Once it appeared they were finally out of TOS/TNG originals to bring to DS9 for ratings, they had to turn to the inevitable borglike "boogie man" in the Jem'Hadar and eventually the Dominion.  

While the battles were pretty, it was NOT Trek. It was Star Wars, wtih different models. Call me a purist if you will, but I am not against Trek warfare, least you forget I am a strident SFB'er. But combat in Trek was for a purpose and was story driven, the combat in DS9 WAS the story. Example?

ST2:TWOK:  Enterprise vs Reliant, Kirk vs Khan, Good vs Evil. No better motivator around.
TOS: The Balance of Terror: Direct copy of "The Enemy Below", a WW2 based destroyer vs sub movie, the BEST Trek episode concerning combat IMHO.

Wheras in DS9 the Dominion war WAS the story and the characters were part of the war, not the other way around.

Sometimes the mere THREAT of combat in Trek was enough... TOS: "A taste of Armageddon" is one of my fav episodes as well... No phasers fired, no Starships blown up, but the mere threat of the Enterprise executing "General Order 24" sends chills down my spine every time Scotty gives the planet notice of their impending doom. (If you havent seen it, Kirk and party are held hostage, and Kirk tells Scotty to implement GO#24 in 2 hours, which would entail the Enterprise, a FEDERATION Starship targeting every sign of civilization or habitation on the surface of an entire WORLD and erradicating it in the most borglike fashion. Big eye opener for those who grew up watching the TNG, "PC" version of Trek where Picard would never even CONSIDER giving such an order...

I could go on forever, but to surmise my ramblings...

1)Character development watered down due to very large numbers of permanent cast members. I cry EVERY single time Spock dies in TWOK, without exception, and for nearly 20 years now my wife laughs at me each time. It causes me near physical pain to see the Enterprise blow up in ST3:TSFS. Kill Picard, blow up the ever upwards spiraling registry numbers of the newer Enterprises and its "ho hum". The Enterprise ("No bloody A, B, C OR D" WAS a member of the crew, never doubt it.

2)PITIFUL story lines. Total lack of creativity. They are either stealing from old TOS episodes, or other shows/movies, or they are just making up crap.

3)TOTAL disregard for the timeline and established events, simply due to the total lack of those responsible for #2. And puh-leaze, the Akiraprize blows. A ship 100 years older than the first Enterprise, but it IS named Enterprise (change of history) and it is an almost unchaged model of a DS9 ship and obviously looks it.

B+B are simply milking the cow for the last few drops before it dies. Hopefully Paramount will realize the error of their ways before its too late... Trek is on life support and B+B are pulling on the cord for all their worth.

If nothing else, SFB will live LONG and PROSPER!!!

Have a nice day!  
   

[Lepton1]

All very good points.  BUT.

Was TOS intentionally campy or just campy from our view?  I'd like to see some evidence that they knew they were being campy.

No doubt, the big three made TOS, but that was about it. In TOS there was no character development, except maybe for Spock's occasional and totally temporary forays into "humanity" and emotions.  They were characters.  What made the show good was their interactions.  The storylines were as bad as the ones we have now.  At least now, we do have character development and the thread of an arc in the overall season or the series itself.  TOS was a bodge-podge with the best episodes you mentioned as the exception to Kirk bedding another space babe (see Andromeda for the current instantiation of this).

 Oh, look I am a man with black on the left side of my face while this other guy has white on the left side of his face, I must hunt down and kill him, and by the way when I do, we blow each other up.  Can someone pull out of my head the rather large and silly hammer used to drive that point into my head?

I don't need social commentary and good yet traditional stories from Sci-Fi.  I need something beyond what I can dream up in my head.  Give me some crazy non-story driven battles that derive meaning from their spectacle and even perhaps some sort of tactical sense.  Give me some alien races with some depth and a good smattering of alien philosophy, culture, and rituals.  Give me Sci-Fi ideas, not good vs evil, emotions vs reason, BORING!!!!  SCIENCE fiction, not humanistic drama in space.  This is the frigging 21st century now and sometimes the 23rd then.  Can't we progress beyond these rather provincial ideals that have their roots pre-Enlightenment?!  I don't want the same old story.  Give me something new!!


OOOOHH, characters, PTHHHHHHH!!!!  The changling that can loooove!!  The vulcan that can looooove!!!!  The klingon that can looooooooooove!!!!  BORING!!!! Is this a frigging soap opera or is this Science Fiction?  Trek could use a little shot of cyberpunk smack right in the eyeball and a cortical implant to improve its intelligence.  I am always surprised how banal Trek and Sci-Fi can be in general.  It's the same old value set and ideas blopped down into a different context with very little looking forward.  Whatever, you get my drift.    

[Captain KoraH]

On the question of "Was TOS intentionally campy?" the answer is obvious to the historian/Trekkie. Take a closer look at the Sci-Fi shows/movies of the period. Trek was serious Sci-Fi in it's time. It had all the elements of a serious family show, and none of the attempted humor of campy shows. The viewing public at the time was well aware of the allegory mentioned here earlier. The Russians and Chinese were serious business back then. TOS is campy by today's standards, but lets not forget that TOS was one of the first shows on television that was aired in "full color". Next time you see TOS, notice all the strong and colorful red, blue and green backlighting on the sets and actors. That was done on purpose to highlight the show's above-par status since most shows on TV at the time were still black and white. Keep it in context and the answer seems pretty obvious.  

[The_Joker]

 

Quote:
Does anyone know if a Collector's Edition for "Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country" will be made like they did for St2 and St3?
 

Though, of course, I don't know for sure; I'd say the answer to this is probably yes.  They've now released collector's Editions of 1-4.  Just makes since they'd continue.  I've got all four that have already been released, and it seams that they are purposely being made to look good beside eachother on display.  

[DestinyCalling]

Of course TOS looks "campy"... It's almost 40 years old..!!!  

Can YOU remember what it was like in the 60's (I cant cos I wasn't born.... child of the early 70's you see so TOS IS my era)

The thing is that all the "new" series TNG, DS9, VOY and Enterprise have been churned out non stop since Encounter at Farpoint.... Which is what I keep saying, but no-one is agreeing... WE NEED A BREAK AND A CHANCE TO "MISS" IT....

Think about this... If they showed Encounter at Farpoint today as a new episode you would know it was 16 years old....

Now thats down to modern production I'll admit, but if no-one had seen it before you could pass it off as a new episode...

This is really the crux of it now.... The exec's at Paramount are now soooooo paranoid about ratings and how their "flagship" franchise is going that they havent stopped to draw breath....

Pull Trek from our screens..... Get rid of Enterprise cos its getting everyone who cares about Trek's back up....

Then leave it a few years... No new shows... No new series... Just give us a chance to look back and go "ahhhh"....

But, most of all.....

RELEASE TOS ON DVD...... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.... I'M BEGGIN MAN... I'M ON MY KNEES HERE!!!!!  

[DestinyCalling]

Or........

Start a new series but set it in between TOS and TNG and put Mike Okuda in charge of it.... He seems to be the only one who seems to care....

Oh, and make sure Andrew Probert designs ANY new ships.....

I dont really care for all this modern junk.....

Refit Enterprise = The Greatest of ALL Trek Starships....  

[Rod O'neal]

Actually, I think trek is like the Dallas Cowboys. They both suck right now and everyone's bitchin', but when they're good they'll be loved by everyone again! (OK. All you people who hate the Cowboys can start shooting nowLOL )        
Seriously though, what we need is good Trek. IMO they've been ignoring canon and "the rules" for far too long now. Trek started downhill when they gave photons to the Klingons and disruptors to Romulans. Firing while cloaked and transporting through shields, and such. Someone said earlier that, according to GR, what was shown first was canon and if anything that came afterwards contradicted it then it was just lazy (I say lousy) writers. It's just got worse lately. Don't take Trek away, just take away lousy Trek!  

[Magnum357]

Jeez, you make this current situation sound like a "magic wand" can solve our problems.  Trek is in serious trouble.  If Enterprise is only averaging a 1.8 in the nealson rating, that means Hockey and Baseball (two sports that don't do well on TV in the United States) is going to catch up with them soon.  Paramont is on a sinking ship.

I agree, they probably more then likely need to just take a break for a few years and see if they can revive it later when fresh minds (minus B & B hopefully) can take over.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

GR WANTED TOS to be a "Soap Opera", "Wagon Train to the Stars" was his pet name for it. He was FAR more interested in the characters and their development and interaction than in space combat.

As for TOS having chars, but those chars not developing, I say NAY!

McCoy and Spocks love/hate relationship and constant needling and barbing at each other only got stronger as the show went along, and eventually went into the movies. "God, I liked him better before he died." Mccoy, ST:VI, classic line.

Kirks fear of losing control and losing his ship, and his obsessive love for his ship.

Spocks heritage. Spocks family. Spocks gradual trend towards more emotions in TOS, then zero emotion to start TMP and a gradual swing back into emotions as the TMP era went along.

Just like the first season of TNG, TOS was merely a group of actors in the first season, who grew into family over the course of the TOS and TMP eras. Imagine what TOS might have become if given a 7(?) year run like TNG.

As much as I love to see any ship named Enterprise (almost) kick some ass, a show that is nothing but constant combat and warfare would get very old, very quick, for me anyway.

In some of the TOS episodes you only saw the E in the orbital "beauty passes" and all the action took place on the ship or planetside. "Devil in the Dark" is a prime example.

Some episodes, such as the "Enterprise Incident" had the tease of industrial strength Starship combat, but it was only that, a tease. On the other hand, you have "The Ultimate Computer" where the M-5 destroys or cripples 4 Starships without taking a scratch.

Variation is whats required. "Journey to Babel" is one of the most in-depth and background rich episodes of TOS, and it combines ship to ship combat, hand to hand combat, political intrigue, murder, assassination, mystery, family ties, and Dr. McCoy finally getting in the last word. That episode had more DEPTH and potential for expansion than entire SEASONS of Voyager or DS9, IMHO.

To close, I agree, we need TOS on DVD. Indeed, we need "remastered" TOS on DVD. Similar to ET's re-release. Give us the old, re-mastered but unimproved episode, then give us the re-mastered and updated episode, like they did with the Star Wars movies. The old show, with CGI shots of the Enterprise, etc (like they did on the 30th anniv. episode of DS9 with the "trouble with Tribbles" remake) updated weapon effects, updated warp effects, sound effects,etc. Then do it to the TMP movies.

Have a nice day!  
 

[Magnum357]

Ya, that DS9 episode was incredible!  Although I've never thought much of the cheap TOS sets and models they used in the series 35 years ago, that episode did a spectacular job recreating all the old props and such and the new CGI stuff really made the Enterprise look more beleivable in modern Si Fi shows.  I think you are right, with all the CGI and special effects they have today with computers, they could easily remaster a lot of TOS episodes with new graphics like they did with Star Wars a few years ago.  Hey Parmount, are you listening?

As for rich Story Lines in TOS being better then the other series, I disagree with that.  I've seen some great episodes in the other shows that are comparable to TOS's too.  Like my favorite episodes in Star Trek have to be "Yesterdays Enterprise" on TNG (TOS never thought of a plot like that one) and the DS9 Episode that shows Sisko forcing the Romlulans into the War.  That one was an all time classic to me!  I think many Star Trek fans where so shocked by that episode that Sisko actually did an imporal act to save the Federation, that many Star Trek fans didn't like the episode.  To me, that is being very narrow minded in my opinion.

Ya, TOS had some great episodes, but it also had some bad one too.  

[32nd Halcyon]

Quote:
 

Quote:
... Space: Above and Beyond: This show was captivating, energetic and original yet familiar. It had great acting, great stories and great character development. It took the "focus on the people, not the technology" approach and pulled it off perfectly. I was in the US Army at the time this show dissapeared, and having been one of the troops fighting the first Gulf War, I loved the show, because I could relate to the characters and their daily plight. I was very sad to learn of it's cancellation. A huge mistake by the network, this show could have gone all the way...  

I agree with this.  It seemed so "within reach" given even our present faulty shuttle technology.  It also seems like what it would actually be like if we could "cross Star Trek with reality".  What I like most are not even the dramatic elements or the science fiction elements; I love the portrayal of the U.S. military, notably the Marines, in outer space.  It beats the portrayal of space age U.S. Marines in James Bond.  If a real soldier like you saw the realism in the personal side of the show, you know it was well researched and thought out before they let it air.  I, too, am blue that this show is no longer on.

What potential it had!  Wouldn't it have been cool to see a spaceborne U.S. military under various future leaders, say an expansionist one like Andrew Jackson, another like the ever so shaky John Kennedy or quagmirish Lyndon Johnson, or one like either of the Bushes, under the further guidance of "overwhelming might" (sort of like the all powerful Federation and Starfleet of early TNG).  What would carpet bombing look like from space?  (Like mirror Spock's preprogrammed phaser barrage?)  We already know what dogfighting in space could be like, but can't get enough of that on the screen!  Or, what could a hunt for the Bismarck or Schoenhorst look like in space?  (Don't tell me "Balance of Terror"; it   must   be grander [yet more tedious] than that.)  Or, even, PIckett's charge?

Alas...      

This show cost approx.a  million each show to make. I enjoyed this show emencly. the Interworkings between the human marines and the "clones was ground breaking considering this was prior to our trpediation concerning Cloning sheep(dolly)
The stories had a dark and forboding feel to them. There was a genuine feeling that the characters could be killed in almost any episode. If I could find this on DVD I'd by it in a heartbeat. I know th eSpace channel ran this show from front to back approx 4 yrs ago.

I just watched the Tholian episode, when the Tholians were trying to cut through the hull plating to get in, I was hopping up and down. Hoping to see them. The TOS Version was kinda cheesy. But not cheesy enough for me to love flying the Tholian ships in SFB. It would been real cool if the tholians had webed the Vulcan ship or even Enterprise.
It has come to my attetion that Archer is a glutton for punishment. He's like his beagle, only his beagle might be smarter. How many times is Archer going to get himself in trouble before something goes terribly wrong.

I think I can see where B & B are going with this. Ever since the 3rd movie in the Movie serries Trek has been obsessed with the Time line and altering it. It stands to reason that they would carry this into theircurrent incarnation of Trek. Considering this there can be an enormous amount of creative freedom, in how the Trek story is told from the Enterprise NX time period.

 

[Lepton1]

LOl, I am sorry but I can't watch TNG, especially first season.  It looks so dated, somehow more dated than TOS.  The lighting in that show was just terrible, way too bright.  Hurts my eyes just to see it. While I like TNG when it was on, now it seems to happy-go-lucky, likeTrek on Prozac, but I haven't seen it in awhile so my opinion might change. No TNN for me.

[Mentat Jon]

I think Trek needs to go underground for 10 years,let it regenerate. Kind of like the space between when TOS ended and when the movies started.



I dont think Trek is dying,it just needs a rest.


my 2 cents...  

[SghnDubh]

http://www.salon.com/ent/wire/2003/04/16/spike/

9th paragraph down. Thoughts?

 

[Lieutenant_Q]

Nielson Ratings are the bane of the television industry, it sets false standards in veiwership that the broadcast companies take far too literally.  Nielson ratings are supposed to be a "representative" slice of the United States television viewers.  Unfortunatly Nielson doesnt try to get a very diverse set of families to base a proper sample.  Neilson needs to be eliminated from the Television industry, but I dont see that happening anytime soon.