Topic: Spin off thread - NX-01 never existed

[Alidar Jarok]

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        Technically Starfleet itself isn?t meant to exist until after the Federation is formed. The Federation charter, ca. 2161, created Starfleet, so the very existence of it now is a violation. The show does have an almost distinct TNG feel to it, more like Voyager though, but that?s because the majority of their troubles seem to come from unknown and hostile ships, though given their situation this is unavoidable. One of the things I really don?t like is how a lot of their things look like today?s palm pilots. Who exactly is making these things? Motorola? Maybe Nokia?

Could you tell me where you heard this.  Does it distinguish between an "Earth" starfleet and a "Federation" starfleet?

       

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If you want to talk about real discontinuity, the ?phase pistols? are the subject of choice, I think. In ?A Matter of Time? (TNG) Worf specifically stated that phasers were not invented until the 22nd century, and if you look at ?The Cage? (TOS) the enterprise crew had nothing more than lasers, and only 3 settings on them,  and they had to be twisted like a sticky flashlight (torch for the British) to get them to change. So you can?t say that it works because the two aren?t spelled the same. This is quite likely just a bad attempt at giving the crew a non-lethal weapon.

I'm telling you Napoleon didn't fight with Machine Guns, does that mean Gunpowder weapons didn't exist then?
Phase Pistols and Phasers work under the same principle, and are both particle weapons (along with Disruptors).

Can't rationalize Pike's "Lasers."  Perhaps there was some flaw in the Phase Pistols that forced them to no longer be used.  Pike was using the "safer" Lasers, while the exparimental "Phaser" was just being introduced.

As for the crank thing, you do realize how "low-tech" the Original Series looked?

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Granted it is a rather enjoyable show on its own, but it isn?t on its own. It?s like trying to preserve history, when all you have to go on is a math book. It just doesn?t work.    

This might be true, but at the end we can count up all the continuity breaches (and semi-breaches) and collectivly agree to ignore them.  Go ahead and ignore the Borg, don't ignore Enterprise.  

[Pestalence]

StartrekCaptain,

I agree that the show Enterprise is inconsistant to known Trek Facts... but TNG is as well and is several of the TOS episodes.... however, you stated a quote from DS 9 in your first posting where they called the NCC-1701 the original enterprise, however, if you look closely at the case in Captain Piccard's ready room in the movie "Generations" the first Enterprise was indeed the NX-01 Enterprise, however it is not the one we see in the show.. it is a Deadelus Class Spaceship.. the flying sphere with a handle and warp nacells added.... that was Film Canon for the "First" Enterprise...

Second inconsistancy with the episode you quoted is that the First Captain of the NCC-1701 is unknown(Name not given in any TOS episode, however Captain Pike in the episode "The Cage" made it clear that he took the ship over from a previous captain).. Non-Canon sources call Robert April the first captain of the NCC-1701 (though still unconfirmed according to film), followed by Captain Christopher Pike (The Cage, The Menagerie), then Captain James T. Kirk... Kirk was the Third Captain, then Captain Spock (Star Trek II : TWOK), but the most notable of all her (NCC-1701) captains was James Kirk...

Third inconsistancy is calling the NCC-1701 a "Constitution Class" Starship, when in fact in any TOS episode, the dedication plaque next to the turbo-lift clearly states that the NCC-1701 Enterprise was a "Starship Class" Spaceship and is stated as such in "The Cage".. and was further made proof when Gene Roddenberry stated that Franz's (who called it Constitution Class) book on Trek ships were not Canon, and only what is seen on screen is Canon, and if any inconsistancies exist in furture episodes, the first showing of Said Canon is the one that is True Canon... the rest are just from writers who can't research.

However, you are correct, the show Enterprise is not Canon by Roddenberry's definition as the NX-01 was already seen on screen as a model in a historical case on the NCC-1701-D... as well as technonogy, equipment, weapons, ETC...

The way to determine Canon in Trek is to watch Trek episode by Episode according to production date... Starting from "The Cage" TOS first piolot episode all the way through until present day... Everything seen as a First that doesn't contradict a previous episode is "Canon" as per Roddenberry.

In response to another poster... Lasers were the top of the line hand held weapons in "The Cage" as Phasers were ship mounted weapons, or a huge cannon that could be transported to the surface of a planet... Hand held Phasers only became available between the time after "The Cage" and when Kirk took over the Enterprise... Phase Pistols leads to incline viewers of "Phasers". A shortened name of Phase Pistols would be Phasers.. thus, looking at this point of view, makes Phase Pistols an item out of it's created timeline according to TOS episodes... the Lasers in TOS were also called Laser Pistols.... Lasers for short, just like Phasers are short for Phaser Pistols...

Like I said above, if you want to follow Canon, watch each episode according to production date (not release date) and follow Roddenberry's rule I stated above.. this will give you True Canon of Trek.... instead of speculation...


 

[Whiplash]

Well.....

There are a couple of simple ways to streeeetch continuity into shape again.

First, you could say that Enterprise is NX-01 rather than NCC-01. Therefore, like the original excelsior, not a ship that ever entered full service.

Second, and somewhat related, Archer's Enterprise predated the Federation. They could have been counting only Federation vessels, and not Earth vessels.

Both arguments can be combined. That doesn't make them any less weak, but its not TOO difficult to believe it.

W.
 

[ChamadaIV]

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StartrekCaptain,

I agree that the show Enterprise is inconsistant to known Trek Facts... but TNG is as well and is several of the TOS episodes.... however, you stated a quote from DS 9 in your first posting where they called the NCC-1701 the original enterprise, however, if you look closely at the case in Captain Piccard's ready room in the movie "Generations" the first Enterprise was indeed the NX-01 Enterprise, however it is not the one we see in the show.. it is a Deadelus Class Spaceship.. the flying sphere with a handle and warp nacells added.... that was Film Canon for the "First" Enterprise...

Second inconsistancy with the episode you quoted is that the First Captain of the NCC-1701 is unknown(Name not given in any TOS episode, however Captain Pike in the episode "The Cage" made it clear that he took the ship over from a previous captain).. Non-Canon sources call Robert April the first captain of the NCC-1701 (though still unconfirmed according to film), followed by Captain Christopher Pike (The Cage, The Menagerie), then Captain James T. Kirk... Kirk was the Third Captain, then Captain Spock (Star Trek II : TWOK), but the most notable of all her (NCC-1701) captains was James Kirk...

Third inconsistancy is calling the NCC-1701 a "Constitution Class" Starship, when in fact in any TOS episode, the dedication plaque next to the turbo-lift clearly states that the NCC-1701 Enterprise was a "Starship Class" Spaceship and is stated as such in "The Cage".. and was further made proof when Gene Roddenberry stated that Franz's (who called it Constitution Class) book on Trek ships were not Canon, and only what is seen on screen is Canon, and if any inconsistancies exist in furture episodes, the first showing of Said Canon is the one that is True Canon... the rest are just from writers who can't research.

However, you are correct, the show Enterprise is not Canon by Roddenberry's definition as the NX-01 was already seen on screen as a model in a historical case on the NCC-1701-D... as well as technonogy, equipment, weapons, ETC...

The way to determine Canon in Trek is to watch Trek episode by Episode according to production date... Starting from "The Cage" TOS first piolot episode all the way through until present day... Everything seen as a First that doesn't contradict a previous episode is "Canon" as per Roddenberry.

In response to another poster... Lasers were the top of the line hand held weapons in "The Cage" as Phasers were ship mounted weapons, or a huge cannon that could be transported to the surface of a planet... Hand held Phasers only became available between the time after "The Cage" and when Kirk took over the Enterprise... Phase Pistols leads to incline viewers of "Phasers". A shortened name of Phase Pistols would be Phasers.. thus, looking at this point of view, makes Phase Pistols an item out of it's created timeline according to TOS episodes... the Lasers in TOS were also called Laser Pistols.... Lasers for short, just like Phasers are short for Phaser Pistols...

Like I said above, if you want to follow Canon, watch each episode according to production date (not release date) and follow Roddenberry's rule I stated above.. this will give you True Canon of Trek.... instead of speculation...


 

In response to this, I'd have to say that one needs to take into account the modernization of the series relative to real world technology. What I mean is that you can't expect them to use similar set designs on  Enterprise  from the 60s tv show (TOS). That would be boring, viewers would never go for that. Perhaps hardcore trekkers, but not to the casual viewer. Same thing goes for all the other tech we see on the new show. But despite the newer look of the NX-01, the show still keeps in mind some of the little nuances that made TOS what it was. If you haven't noticed, for example, T'Pol has been seen on more than one occasion looking through a sensor scope (that console device with the blue light inside that Spock was looking at for sensor readings on TOS).

Bear in mind that "Phase Pistols" are prototypes. We may find out later on in the ENT series that these pistols are found to be unreliable, and Starfleet may recommend the use of "laser pistols" instead as a safer alternative. Or they may be decomissioned due to their supposedly deadly nature (i.e. everyone shot by phase pistols on the show appear to be killed, not stunned) and subsequently reengineered with a stun setting only to be reissued years later after Kirk takes command of the NCC-1701. Remember that ENT is only in its 2nd season. There's still five more to go (at least that's Paramount's plan).

As for Pestelance's lengthy explanation on Trek canon, it's not always what was written in the past that should determine everything to come thereafter. TOS canon is old, very old. To go on what they wrote waaay back in the 60s would be like accepting a UNIVAC computer as today's standard. That's old hat my friend. No matter what Gene Roddenberry had in mind back then, it is important that you update and improve, sometimes overwriting what already has been written. Rick Berman once said I think that if TOS was ever remade today, the set would look similar to TOS as far as layout, but the details would be more up-to-date a la  Enterprise. It's called progress. That's what people strive to accomplish.

By the by, Pestelance, I recall seeing you post on another thread from over a month ago about your argument over the naming of NCC-1701 as a "Constitution Class" starship. You went as far as posting close-up pictures of the bridge plaque next to the turbolift clearly stating that ship as a "Starship Class" starship. Do you see how silly that sounds? It's almost a filler name until they could think of a better one. It's a throwback to the old campy days of sci-fi like  Lost in Space and whatnot. "Constitution" sounds more serious, more professional, as if a real ship designer came up with it. It's probably even a dedication to something having to do with the Federation (perhaps the Constitution of the Federation of maybe even the United States as a historical tribute). Besides, it is canon now, after all. Was it not you who quoted Mr. Roddenberry as saying, "If its not on film, its not canon"? Last time I checked, TV Trek just so happens to be on (surprise!) film.

     

[Pestalence]

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By the by, Pestelance, I recall seeing you post on another thread from over a month ago about your argument over the naming of NCC-1701 as a "Constitution Class" starship. You went as far as posting close-up pictures of the bridge plaque next to the turbolift clearly stating that ship as a "Starship Class" starship. Do you see how silly that sounds? It's almost a filler name until they could think of a better one. It's a throwback to the old campy days of sci-fi like  Lost in Space and whatnot. "Constitution" sounds more serious, more professional, as if a real ship designer came up with it. It's probably even a dedication to something having to do with the Federation (perhaps the Constitution of the Federation of maybe even the United States as a historical tribute). Besides, it is canon now, after all. Was it not you who quoted Mr. Roddenberry as saying, "If its not on film, its not canon"? Last time I checked, TV Trek just so happens to be on (surprise!) film.

       

Re-read what i stated... Rodenberry, the Creator of Trek stated that if it is on film it is Canon... so long as it does not superceed anything that is previously shown on film...

In other words... Starship Class is the Canon name for Enterprise.. they were listed under Duty class, for their role, not classes named for the first ship in the line.. that practice didn't come about until the NCC-1701 was recristened Enterprise Class in the movie TWOK... when the Enterprise's refit was complete.... the NCC-1701-A is a Constitution Class as seen in the Undiscovered Country on the Schemetic Diagram.. thus following Canon...

I suggest you watch the movies and episodes in the proper order.. by production date..
 

[ChamadaIV]

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Re-read what i stated... Rodenberry, the Creator of Trek stated that if it is on film it is Canon... so long as it does not superceed anything that is previously shown on film...

In other words... Starship Class is the Canon name for Enterprise.. they were listed under Duty class, for their role, not classes named for the first ship in the line.. that practice didn't come about until the NCC-1701 was recristened Enterprise Class in the movie TWOK... when the Enterprise's refit was complete.... the NCC-1701-A is a Constitution Class as seen in the Undiscovered Country on the Schemetic Diagram.. thus following Canon...

I suggest you watch the movies and episodes in the proper order.. by production date..
 

When will you come to grips with the fact that he who holds the license is free to do with it however he pleases? In this case, Star Trek, no matter the era, belongs to Paramount as you know. If they see fit to change canon when necessary in order to better suit new additions to the liscense (i.e.  Enterprise), then they can. That is that. If Roddenberry's surviving familiy controlled the liscense and wanted everything to follow exactly as Gene wanted it, then so be it. But the Trek ball is in Rick Berman's court, so canon is now his to determine. If it must changed for whatever business reason he has in mind, then it is his call. Not yours, not mine, and (sadly) not the fans.

Now to dig up the past...

 There is no such thing as....

ThePostman made some very good arguments you failed to pay much heed to, despite your responses...

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For starters just because you say it doesn't make it so.
In 1794 congress authorized the construction of 6 frigates for a navy that didn't have any ships. The USS United States, Constitution ,President, Congress, Constellation and Chesapeake were the 6 ships constructed as well as the USS Essex which was built separately. Except for the USS Constitution, none of these ships exist today.These ships were sometimes referred to as United States class frigates. The USS Constitution has a long and distinguished history that is unequeled in the worlds navies. Through this long life the ship has been rebuilt and restored many times to the point where it has been estamated that less than 10% of the original ship remained. No one has ever suggested that this is not the same ship or it's class has changed through the various rebuilds.

The USS Constellation is a diffrent story however. This was another ship built as part of th original 6. In 1854 after several rebuilds, she was deemed unfit for further rebuilds and broken up in Gosport VA. A new ship was built using some of the salvaged lumber and given the name USS Constellation. This ship was of a newer design than the original 1797 ship.

The question is this. Can you document the TOS USS Enterprise being decommisioned and a new ship being built from scratch (possibly with parts from the TOS ship) or was the ship substantialy rebuilt but never decommisioned. This needs to be documented. I don't want to change excepted canon history because some bozo put some words on a plaque for a movie set. You would not believe some of the BS that goes into movie sets by people that don't know anything about the subject material. I will ask "Roddy" jr If he has any thoughts on this if he ever comes back to town .

You responded...

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You would not believe some of the BS that goes into movie sets by people that don't know anything about the subject material.


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Oh I can believe it... the dedication plaque on the USS Excelcior NCC-2000 mission statement is "Where ever you go, there you are."

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I don't want to change excepted canon history because some bozo put some words on a plaque for a movie set. You would not believe some of the BS that goes into movie sets by people that don't know anything about the subject material


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well you're buying into fan based class name instead of actual class name as the Dedication plaque on the TOS episodes starting from "The Cage" is the one in the image in my first posting.. yet everyone calls it a Constitution Class..

so in actuallity by your reasoning, if the Big E never got decomissioned before refit, the Actual Class name (reguardless of what the Chief Production Designer of the ship says) should indeed be " Starship Class Refit" to keep in canon with TOS and along current naval standards..

Am I interpreting you correctly? Because that is what I am reading until Paramount Officially states that the TOS Plaque that was displayed on EVERY TOS Episode (although most times non readable) is meaningless...

He thereafter followed up with...

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Paramount would be wise to create a canon universe and publish it so that ALL aspects of Star Trek will hang together.
Having said that, I believe that when the TOS was in production no one anticipated the need for a star Trek universe or that somebody was going to take a magnifying glass to every frame of film. Franz Josef tried to fill in some of the blanks after TOS was cancelled. In fact it was not untill the end of the shoot for WOK when they left the door open for a third movie did any one start to see the need for one. Unlike Star Wars where everything was thought out from the very first movie, they have been making everything up as they went along. Consequently there are and will be differences between TOS, the movies and the tv series's. I believe,that Paramount would change several details in past productions to make Star Trek history more consistent if they could.
Somewhere in these forums, someone stated that Gene Roddenberry made the statment that if it wasn't on film, it wasn't canon. I can go along with that except that there stll are discepencies in various facts and details that need to be worked out. It always was my understanding that SFB was loosely based on the Franz Josef book, but later in the movie productions they also started using it as reference material. If you go by GR thoughts above there still is a difference of opinion on this topic. However I do and will believe that what we see in later productions is what they wanted us(the public) to build the ST Universe from. Even you have to admit, TOS would have been entirely different if they had continued with the version we saw in The Cage. While I admit that The Cage is now part of ST history, lets look at them for what it are: a cheap way to put 2 more episodes on the air from a pilot that wasn't going to be seen any other way.

Very valid points worth noting again, I think. On a parallel, or parallax if you want, do you really think Roddenberry was completely satisfied with what he did on TOS, let alone the TMP movie series or early TNG? Can you honestly tell exactly what he was thinking or how he felt about his work? If he was a good artist, he would not feel it complete. There is always room for improvement in the mind of a creative thinker. Even George Lucas thinks his phenominal first three Star Wars films were incomplete and not worthy enough for a DVD collector's re-release.

Roddenberry must've went along with "Constitution" as it was accepted widely by the fans. It is the fans after all that help keep a franchise like Trek alive. Try starting your own sci-fi series without a fanbase and see how long it lasts. Not long, I assure you. In the end, who cares about what some plaque on a production set says? It's merely a prop-piece for godsake! Don't take everything you see to heart. Enjoy Trek for what it is, not what's inscribed on the window dressing.      

[Alidar Jarok]

Phaser stands for "Phased Energy Rectification" Not Phase Pistol

My opinion about "canon" is what we collectively agree on.  
All else is speculation.

If everyone agrees deck (what was it, 60 something?) of Enterprise A is non-canon, then it is non-canon.

If everyone (even the most stubborn have to) agrees that the Enterprise is a Constitution class, then it becomes cannon.

Klingons ships were called D-7's in non-canon material only (they were called Battlecruisers "on air").  But they were popularly called this, so in (I think it was "Trials and Tribbulations") they called a D-7.

Here is my opinion:

Enterprise is cannon

The Ferengi never tried to board Enterprise (it was just the Visual effects department doing a poor job of re-using old props).

I will ignore the Borg if they can't at least do what they did with the Ferengi.  If they do, the Borg could explain this statement by 7of9 about first contact between Humans and Vulcans.  She said, "I know, we were there."  The Borg were unable to send a message before they were stopped.  But I'd prefer to consider it non-canon.

The GIANT Bird of Preys in "The Defector" were really 3 Vor'Chas.

If every single Star Trek fan in the entire world will agree to this, then it becomes cannon.


Just IMHO.

[Blitzkrieg]

Ill agree just because I cant be bothered to argue, futhermore I think I actualy do agree lol (god I need to retake up smoking)

[ChamadaIV]

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Ill agree just because I cant be bothered to argue, futhermore I think I actualy do agree lol (god I need to retake up smoking)  

Nooo!! Don't!! Bad Blitz, BAD! Sorry, heh, just joking.

If you've quit smoking already, you're in the clear. Don't go back. My boss at work did, and he regrets everyday since. I've also already seen it ruin one of my uncles for the rest of his days...

Hey, why am I taking this so serious? For all I know, Blitzkrieg might've just been joking too. (shaking head and walking away...)    

[La'ra]

Picard also referred to the NCC-1701 as a Constitution-class in the TNG episode Relics.  Scotty, who he said it too, would surely have objected if he'd gotten it wrong.

No bloody Starship class, Enterprise class, or head of the class.  So it is, so it shall always be, regardless of what it said on a $5.00 prop.
 
 

[StarTrekcaptain]

Exactly.  When they made the episode, Trials and Tribble-lations.  They made it as a 30 anversary episode, to mark 30 years of Trek.  They wouldn't have made a mistake like calling the ship a class that it wasn't.  And I'm sorry to say, but anyone who dissagrees is wrong, simple.

[sjvessey]

What about the Space Shuttle called 'Enterprise'?  Shouldn't you say THAT is the 'first'??

Talk about arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin....
 

[Argos65987]

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Talk about arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin....
   

Canon says it's 437    

[Alidar Jarok]

I was possitive it was 438  

[ChamadaIV]

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I was possitive it was 438  

Whoa. Somebody revived this thread. You figure after a month it would die off into page 2 or 3. I guess not this time...

It was mentioned earlier (I think by Pestalence) that in the ST: Generations movie, the NX-01 was shown to be a Daedelus class ship. This is true. How will Rick Berman ever explain this, we may never know. Perhaps the NX-01 as we know it in  Enterprise will be destroyed somehow and a new ship will be built to replace the old one, thus launching a new class of ship while still retaining the old registry number, similar (but not the same) to what they did to the USS Sao Paulo in DS9 after the first USS Defiant (the TNG Defiant, not the TOS ship) was destroyed.

Phase pistols and particle cannons galore,

CIV      

[Alidar Jarok]

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I was possitive it was 438  

Whoa. Somebody revived this thread. You figure after a month it would die off into page 2 or 3. I guess not this time...

It was mentioned earlier (I think by Pestalence) that in the ST: Generations movie, the NX-01 was shown to be a Daedelus class ship. This is true. How will Rick Berman ever explain this, we may never know. Perhaps the NX-01 as we know it in  Enterprise will be destroyed somehow and a new ship will be built to replace the old one, thus launching a new class of ship while still retaining the old registry number, similar (but not the same) to what they did to the USS Sao Paulo in DS9 after the first USS Defiant (the TNG Defiant, not the TOS ship) was destroyed.

Phase pistols and particle cannons galore,

CIV      

Not exactly

In ST: TMP there was a list of Enterprises (much like the posters Archer had)

It listed OV-101, NCC-1701, and a new ship that looks a lot like the Surak class ship from Enterprise (Vulcan ship).

NX-01 wasn't lised.  

In Nemesis you could see it, though.

[ChamadaIV]

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I was possitive it was 438  

Whoa. Somebody revived this thread. You figure after a month it would die off into page 2 or 3. I guess not this time...

It was mentioned earlier (I think by Pestalence) that in the ST: Generations movie, the NX-01 was shown to be a Daedelus class ship. This is true. How will Rick Berman ever explain this, we may never know. Perhaps the NX-01 as we know it in  Enterprise will be destroyed somehow and a new ship will be built to replace the old one, thus launching a new class of ship while still retaining the old registry number, similar (but not the same) to what they did to the USS Sao Paulo in DS9 after the first USS Defiant (the TNG Defiant, not the TOS ship) was destroyed.

Phase pistols and particle cannons galore,

CIV      

Not exactly

In ST: TMP there was a list of Enterprises (much like the posters Archer had)

It listed OV-101, NCC-1701, and a new ship that looks a lot like the Surak class ship from Enterprise (Vulcan ship).

NX-01 wasn't lised.  

In Nemesis you could see it, though.  

Thus Rick Berman is re-writing Trek canon. Thank you for helping me point that out.  

[Alidar Jarok]

Although he is re-writing by making another ship named Enterprise (NX-01) as opposed to the SS Enterprise

But, at the same time, they make a ship that perfectly fits Trek canon (except, maybe its size)

The Surak ship looks a lot like the SS Enterprise, while at the same time has a resemblence to the T'Pau from Unification.