Topic: A history and analysis of Romulan ships

[Tremok]

They hadn't seen a Suliban cloak to start with.  It was Daneils who told Archer how to see them.  They could track their engine Residue, though

 I see.  

No we don't.  But if we assume the TOS Bird of Prey is equally capable with its warp drive, it probably has a fusion reactor as a power source.  This means it would have a limited range.  Eventually it would have to turn back and re-feul.

 You can assume all you want, but I won't. I will wait for facts to be known.  

I have withdrawn my statement.  I forgot to think about heavy weapons.  Their primary weapon could have been what they fired, Atomics would be their heavy, possibly exactly like Spatial Torpedoes (No there is no reason to suggest a Spatial Torpedo is Atomic either, but there is no reason to suggest it isn't)

 Makes sense enough. But we don't know what heavy weapons that ship has until it uses them.  And no, the Spatial Torpedo is not atomic. In Minefield, the Enterprise was hit by a 25 kiloton or quarter kiloton mine. Either way, judging from the damage the mine did, and the type of damage we have seen the torpedo do, I think its highly unlikely that those torpedoes are atomic.    

Are you thinking of the Raptor, or the Battlecruiser from unexpected.  I think the Raptor was diabled when they found it, my memory is a little sketchy

 The Raptor was in the gas giant.    
 
They didn't fight much.  Not in Trouble with Tribbles and not in Day of the Dove.  I don't remmeber any other Klingon battle

 I was under the impression that the Enterprise had several skirmishish with them, and generally won.  

I am basing it on Tin Man.  You hear about 9 shots fired in about 5 seconds (3 of them on screen, fired by the main cannon)

 In TNG weapons tend to be fired in long, rapid vollies, with a moment for cool down, and the again fired in another long, rapid volley.

For example: there are times you will see the BigE fire 8 torpedoes off somewhere, wait for a few seconds, and another stream of torpedoes pour out. A phaser strike from the BigE tended to be several phrases going rapidly striking out, cool down for a few seconds, and another burst of phasers.  


If I find the discussion I saw about total numbers, I'll post a link.  Someone suggested that, based on the ratio of Galaxies, there would be 200 or more (assuming a fleet of over 10,000, like some of the DS9 battles suggest)

 Huh, I believe the biggest battle at the end of DS9 had no more than the 2000 ships. In Sacrifice of Angels, the Federation fleet consisted of 600~ ships (believe the real number is 589 or somesuch), and that required several big fleets. Very few people think the combined total of Federation ships is more than 8000. Most seem to content that right now its somewhere in the area of 7000-4000 ships.  

 

[La'ra]

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 I was under the impression that the Enterprise had several skirmishish with them, and generally won.  

The only time the Enterprise crossed swords with a D-7 in TOS was in Elaan of Troyius.  They defeated the Klingon ship with a photon torpedo volley that convinced the Klingons to leave the Enterprise alone.  Neither ship seemed to incur much damage.

Your analysis of the early Bird of Prey is interesting, however do keep in mind that in Balance of Terror Spock mentioned that the Earth-Romulan conflict was fought by ships roughly equal to each other, so any disparities are apparently eliminated by the time of the war.

I consider your analysis of the original, TOS Bird of Prey to be a bit skewed in the favor of the Romulans as well.  While the ship had a highly destructive weapon, it's shortcoming were rather extreme.  It was far slower than a Constitution-class ship, it had a highly limited fuel supply, and seemed a bit fragile when compared to it's opponent.  It seemed like a ship designed by people who knew their technology wasn't up to par with their neighbors and who tried to even the playing field by souping up the aspect of the vessel they considered the most important, hoping that the cloaking device combined with the giant weapon would compensate for it's notable flaws.    

[Tremok]

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 I was under the impression that the Enterprise had several skirmishish with them, and generally won.  

The only time the Enterprise crossed swords with a D-7 in TOS was in Elaan of Troyius.  They defeated the Klingon ship with a photon torpedo volley that convinced the Klingons to leave the Enterprise alone.  Neither ship seemed to incur much damage.

 I'll take your word for it.  

Your analysis of the early Bird of Prey is interesting, however do keep in mind that in Balance of Terror Spock mentioned that the Earth-Romulan conflict was fought by ships roughly equal to each other, so any disparities are apparently eliminated by the time of the war.

 According to the transcript, no such thing was said. All that was said was the war was fought roughly to a draw.  Already TOS has been proven unreliable as a source to predicate what things will happen in ENT. The only time will tell what the ships of the Romulan War are like.

Also, TOS was written pre-First Contact. It seems to me that the events of First Contact and the Temporal Time War is altering history in some ways. ENT might differ from the histroy written out by other Trek series before FC. Only time will tell.

Temoral fluctuations and things not happening like there supposed to has been part of the Enterprise plot since day one. This is why I don't loose sleep if some things don't match up perfect with ENT and other Trek series.

An interesting fact is the fact that Enterprise is the only Trek series to ever have a linear plot since day one.  

I consider your analysis of the original, TOS Bird of Prey to be a bit skewed in the favor of the Romulans as well.  While the ship had a highly destructive weapon, it's shortcoming were rather extreme.  It was far slower than a Constitution-class ship, it had a highly limited fuel supply, and seemed a bit fragile when compared to it's opponent.  It seemed like a ship designed by people who knew their technology wasn't up to par with their neighbors and who tried to even the playing field by souping up the aspect of the vessel they considered the most important, hoping that the cloaking device combined with the giant weapon would compensate for it's notable flaws.    

 I'll admit the Constitution probably was the better ship, but the BoP wasn't harmless. It did had the capabilites to destroy a Constitution, it simply had to be used properly.    

[La'ra]

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According to the transcript, no such thing was said. All that was said was the war was fought roughly to a draw.  Already TOS has been proven unreliable as a source to predicate what things will happen in ENT. The only time will tell what the ships of the Romulan War are like.

"The war was fought in primitive space vessels, using primitive atomic weapons allowing no quarter; no captives.  There were not even ship to ship visual commincations.  No Human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. " ---Commander Spock, 'Balance of Terror'.

This line, to me, implies close parity by the way it was phrased.  It's at least as substantive as using Lt. Reid's facial expressions to judge the power of Romulan weapons.

You are correct about Enterprise's consistency.  While I enjoy the show immensley, I do wish they paid more attention to the Original Series, which was and still is the best of Trek.

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 I'll admit the Constitution probably was the better ship, but the BoP wasn't harmless. It did had the capabilites to destroy a Constitution, it simply had to be used properly.    

Oh I agree, I was just expounding on the design philosiphy I percieved when looking closely at the vessel.  

[Tremok]

"

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The war was fought in primitive space vessels, using primitive atomic weapons allowing no quarter; no captives.  There were not even ship to ship visual commincations.  No Human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. " ---Commander Spock, 'Balance of Terror'.  

This line, to me, implies close parity by the way it was phrased.

 Imagine 300 hundred years in the future someone might say "300 years ago, primitve, nucleared power submarines, Alfa and Sea Wolf classes, fought each other in combat....". The statement would be true, both vessels would be nucleared powered, and both would be primitive in relation to them. However, the Sea Wolf has far greater capabilites than the Alfa. But then there might 12 Alfas to every Sea Wolf...

We will only know how Starfleet and Romulan vessels compared to each other in the Romulan War when we get there.  

It's at least as substantive as using Lt. Reid's facial expressions to judge the power of Romulan weapons.

 Lol, this is probably true.  

It simply seams to me, considering the Early BoPs advance technology and capabilites we have witness so far, that it is very likely to have considerably strong weapons.

But this is just guestmating. There is truth to the worlds that we simply won't know how strong the Early BoPs weapons are until we seem them used against a target in anger.  

You are correct about Enterprise's consistency. While I enjoy the show immensley, I do wish they paid more attention to the Original Series, which was and still is the best of Trek.

 Edit: Like I have stated before, I believe the inconsistencies of ENT are part of the plot. We'll see.

And I am too have the great gift of actually being able to enjoy the show. Those poor people... that come so close to blowing a vessel every Wednesday they dislike the show so much....  

[Tulmahk]

This from someone who doesn't know the difference between a D7 and a K'tinga?  LOL!

Yet more Tal Shiar propaganda...

Someone needs to check out ditl.org.  

[Tremok]

This from someone who doesn't know the difference between a D7 and a K'tinga?  LOL!

 Whoever claimed or accused someone of not knowing the difference between a D7 and K'tinga?  

Yet more Tal Shiar propaganda...

 Whatever you say?  

Someone needs to check out ditl.org.  

 Check out Daystrom for what?    

[La'ra]

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 Imagine 300 hundred years in the future someone might say "300 years ago, primitve, nucleared power submarines, Alfa and Sea Wolf classes, fought each other in combat....". The statement would be true, both vessels would be nucleared powered, and both would be primitive in relation to them. However, the Sea Wolf has far greater capabilites than the Alfa. But then there might 12 Alfas to every Sea Wolf...

We will only know how Starfleet and Romulan vessels compared to each other in the Romulan War when we get there.  

First of all, it wasn't 300 years into the future.  It was around 150.  Second, while your argument could be very true under most circumstances, we have to remember that it was Spock saying it...

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It simply seams to me, considering the Early BoPs advance technology and capabilites we have witness so far, that it is very likely to have considerably strong weapons.

The only 'advanced capabilities evident in the episode were cloaking technology and shields that repulsed the Enterprise's scans.  Their sensors might be fairly advanced, but much of the data they knew about the ship's situation could've been ascertained with a long-range telescope, so there's little evidence that their capabilities exceed Starfleet technology to any great degree.  Do note that the Enterprise often has difficulty scanning through shields, not just when they're Romulan shields.

Also note that the Romulans, known to be very aggressive and rather paranoid (which might explain their sensor-reflective shields), did not destroy the Enterprise and even continued to fire warning shots when they seemed to think Archer wasn't going to comply with their demands.  It's likely that, while they outnumbered the Starfleet ship, they were hesitant to truly engage simply because serious damage to at least one of their vessel's would've been impossible to avoid.

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But this is just guestmating. There is truth to the worlds that we simply won't know how strong the Early BoPs weapons are until we seem them used against a target in anger.

Quite true, I just think you need to remember this yourself...

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Edit: Like I have stated before, I believe the inconsistencies of ENT are part of the plot. We'll see.

And I am too have the great gift of actually being able to enjoy the show. Those poor people... that come so close to blowing a vessel every Wednesday they dislike the show so much....  
 

Honestly, Enterprise is my favorite Trek since TOS.  I feel most of the people who don't enjoy it take it far too seriously.    

[Tremok]

First of all, it wasn't 300 years into the future.  Yes. I know this. I was speaking metaphorically, I wasn't referring to when Spock had spoken.     It was around 150.  Second, while your argument could be very true under most circumstances, we have to remember that it was Spock saying it...  Hmm...  

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It simply seams to me, considering the Early BoPs advance technology and capabilites we have witness so far, that it is very likely to have considerably strong weapons.

The only 'advanced capabilities evident in the episode were cloaking technology and shields that repulsed the Enterprise's scans.  Their sensors might be fairly advanced, but much of the data they knew about the ship's situation could've been ascertained with a long-range telescope,  The Romulan sensors where good enough to whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function. I don't think they could of know that threw looking threw a telescope.    so there's little evidence that their capabilities exceed Starfleet technology to any great degree.  Do note that the Enterprise often has difficulty scanning through shields, not just when they're Romulan shields.

 The fact they even had shields shows the ship probably had superior technology than the NX.  

Also note that the Romulans, known to be very aggressive and rather paranoid (which might explain their sensor-reflective shields), did not destroy the Enterprise and even continued to fire warning shots when they seemed to think Archer wasn't going to comply with their demands.  It's likely that, while they outnumbered the Starfleet ship, they were hesitant to truly engage simply because serious damage to at least one of their vessel's would've been impossible to avoid.

 Or they writers didn't want the Romulans to blow the NX class to hell and end the show.

Also, Romulans are a thinking race. The Early BoPs where probably superior to the NX, but the Romulans wouldn't of know if that vessel was the strongest they had. The NX might of been just a scout ship, they might have something alot stronger or more advance. Or they might of have had huge fleets.

Romulans are chess players. It would go against there nature to start a war with an enemy they knew nothing about.

So, they don't outright destroy the NX-01 and possibly start a war, the intimidate them, giving them a display of power, make them shake with fear, scare them so bad that they never come near your space again.

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But this is just guestmating. There is truth to the worlds that we simply won't know how strong the Early BoPs weapons are until we seem them used against a target in anger.

Quite true, I just think you need to remember this yourself...

  Tremok writes on a piece of paper to remind himself of something he wrote in the first place.

I'll try, but no promises.    

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Edit: Like I have stated before, I believe the inconsistencies of ENT are part of the plot. We'll see.

And I am too have the great gift of actually being able to enjoy the show. Those poor people... that come so close to blowing a vessel every Wednesday they dislike the show so much....  
 

Honestly, Enterprise is my favorite Trek since TOS.  I feel most of the people who don't enjoy it take it far too seriously.    

 Enterprise is my second favorite after DS9.    

[Magnum357]

Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

[La'ra]

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The Romulan sensors where good enough to whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function. I don't think they could of know that threw looking threw a telescope.  

Maybe not telescopes, no, but what they did probably didn't require that much in the way of sensor tech.  Hell, they could've been monitoring the number of people with welding torches in the area of the mine.  When the torches went out, they figured they were done.

Far-fetched, I'll admit, but the point that there's very little evidence one way or the other still stands.

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The fact they even had shields shows the ship probably had superior technology than the NX.  

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Perhaps they went all out to get shields because they don't have the 'stop anything' hull plating of the NX-01.

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Also, Romulans are a thinking race. The Early BoPs where probably superior to the NX, but the Romulans wouldn't of know if that vessel was the strongest they had. The NX might of been just a scout ship, they might have something alot stronger or more advance. Or they might of have had huge fleets.

Romulans are chess players. It would go against there nature to start a war with an enemy they knew nothing about.

I know all about Romulans.  If you've never read any of Jaeih T'Radiak's fan fiction over on that board, I suggest you go take a look.  Admittedly she uses the more militaristic old-show Romulans rather than the mustache-twirling villians of TNG, but she does show that the really bad-ass Rommies she prefers are slowly becoming a minority.

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So, they don't outright destroy the NX-01 and possibly start a war, the intimidate them, giving them a display of power, make them shake with fear, scare them so bad that they never come near your space again.

Or they weren't sure how the fight would turn out and relied on bluff.

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 Enterprise is my second favorite after DS9.    

DS9 had very strong moments, though I thought the Dominion War was handled poorly, and the 1,000 ship battles seemed so not-Star Trek.  

[Tremok]

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The Romulan sensors where good enough to whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function. I don't think they could of know that threw looking threw a telescope.  

Maybe not telescopes, no, but what they did probably didn't require that much in the way of sensor tech.  Hell, they could've been monitoring the number of people with welding torches in the area of the mine.  When the torches went out, they figured they were done.

Far-fetched, I'll admit, but the point that there's very little evidence one way or the other still stands.

 Trip: We can't eject the hull section because of technobabble. It will require 4 hours of technobabble modifictions to able to.

Romulan at the end of the show: We know you have done this technobabble (goes into detail) so that you can now eject the hull plating and mine safely. Do so now and leave or we will blow you into whatever hell your species goto when you die.

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The fact they even had shields shows the ship probably had superior technology than the NX.  

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Perhaps they went all out to get shields because they don't have the 'stop anything' hull plating of the NX-01.

 Didn't stop old Romulan mines very well did? I know, I know, the hull wasn't polarized, but still..  

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Also, Romulans are a thinking race. The Early BoPs where probably superior to the NX, but the Romulans wouldn't of know if that vessel was the strongest they had. The NX might of been just a scout ship, they might have something alot stronger or more advance. Or they might of have had huge fleets.

Romulans are chess players. It would go against there nature to start a war with an enemy they knew nothing about.

I know all about Romulans.  If you've never read any of Jaeih T'Radiak's fan fiction over on that board, I suggest you go take a look.  Admittedly she uses the more militaristic old-show Romulans rather than the mustache-twirling villians of TNG, but she does show that the really bad-ass Rommies she prefers are slowly becoming a minority.

 I have read one or two of Jaeihs older stories, and will soon read some of her newer ones. If only if Sethan would get backed to writing... The bum...

I too have noticed the TOS Romulans seem different than the TNG ones. It makes sense to me, going along with Jaeihs "old schools are dying out as time goes one", the ENT Romulan Empire should be filled with more old school Romulans than either TOS or TNG.

Or perhaps the old school Romulans where well on there way in Enterprise, but the legendary Romulan Sethan made the old ways come back strong in the TOS era.

But lets not loose all hope now; the Romulans in Nemesis should themsevles to be strong in mnhei'sahe.  

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So, they don't outright destroy the NX-01 and possibly start a war, the intimidate them, giving them a display of power, make them shake with fear, scare them so bad that they never come near your space again.

Or they weren't sure how the fight would turn out and relied on bluff.

 Well, no use damaging or risking your ships unnecessarily. Why immediately engage it and risk starting a war when you can just growl and roar at it and send it running off with its tail between its legs?

Though, I think we will both agree that the Romulans where going to make that ship leave in short or that ship was going to be blown into pieces.  

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 Enterprise is my second favorite after DS9.    

DS9 had very strong moments, though I thought the Dominion War was handled poorly, and the 1,000 ship battles seemed so not-Star Trek.  

 Suit yourself. I liked it. And I thought those hundreds of ships space battles were the coolest sci-fi combat ever.    

[32nd Halcyon]

Aren't the Romulans behind much of the time altering with the Suliban?
They would be able to know the specs for the NX-1, wouldn't they?

Correct me if I'm wrong. I've only seen a handful of the shows due to my work schedule.

[Tremok]

 Many people seem to believe this, since the Romulans are so  Fvadting  devious.

But there is no canon to support this.    

[Alidar Jarok]

I have read one or two of Jaeihs older stories, and will soon read some of her newer ones. If only if Sethan would get backed to writing... The bum...

Yeah

I want to read "Survivng the Fire"

Anyway

In "The Enterprise Incident" it was said

"They want something, or they would have destroyed us by now."

In the Defector Picard said,

"Not yet, Mister Worf.  This is just a tap on the shoulder. Or we wouldn't be here talking about it"

In Tin Man they didn't even bother to hail (they just started firing)

So the Romulans really haven't changed that much.

I believe T'Pol said they were highly agressive.

I think they didn't attack for the same reason they didn't attack the Enterprise (D) in "The Neutral Zone"

They were judging the Enterprise

It was decided to just let them leave before they could start spying.

Later, they would regret this decision and attack on site.

The Federation used that to interperet the Romulans as a savage race.

Remember, that is just my opinion
 

[Tremok]

 

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Yeah

I want to read "Survivng the Fire"  

 Indeed, I wish I could find a link back to the old forums to the story. Or that Sethan would be so kind as to repost it in the new ones.  


 

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I believe T'Pol said they were highly agressive. (snip)  

 Indeed they are, but they AREN'T reckless either.  They calculate their moves.  
 
   

[Tremok]

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Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

 Because the TV shows and the movies are the only things that are canon?    

[Karnak]

I will never accept the idea that the BoP in TOS "Balance of Terror" episode was not warp capable.   The Rom travels too far too fast to justifly sub-light max. velocity. I tend to think Roms were stuck with Warp 3 max. engines until their treaty with the Klingons.  Travelling at Warp 3 (approx. 40c)  is enough to carve out a 50 to 100 Light year diameter empire.

[La'ra]

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 Because the TV shows and the movies are the only things that are canon?    

I was gonna say 'because it's fun'.  The yellow reads easier than the green, btw.  I'll get around to responding to your previous reply later this afternoon.  

[Tremok]

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 Because the TV shows and the movies are the only things that are canon?    

I was gonna say 'because it's fun'.  The yellow reads easier than the green, btw.  I'll get around to responding to your previous reply later this afternoon.  

 
(checks date)

Come on La'ra! Don't let me down!