Topic: A history and analysis of Romulan ships

[Tremok]

 Recently I have beening writing enough about Romulans, their ships and their technologies to write a book. So, I have decided to consolildate everything here, for ease of discussions. So, alas, lets begin.

 
 

 The Early Bird-of-Prey

This is an attractive little ship that first appeared in the episode  Minefield. So what do we know about her?

She seems to be superior to any Klingon or Starfleet ship in the era.  She appears to be equipped with an advance cloaking device that the Enterprise probe couldn't detect. The ship is equipped with shields. The ship has weapon(s) on its bow, and they appear highly accurate and powerful.  The ship has superior sensors, knowing exactly what was happening on Enterprise to the greatest detail. The is also advance enough that Enterprise couldn't get scan her (you know your outclassed when that happens).

The real question is what type of warp drive/core does she have? Most everyone agrees that this Early Bird-of-Prey is warp capable.  Considering how advance this ship is, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume this ship has a more advance warp drive? Vulcans, the Romulans cousins, have ships that are flying around at warp 7 right now. Hmm, guess the only answer is wait and see.

Many think the Early Bird-of-Prey have similar warp nacelles, and think it suggests a technology trade. Personally, I don't see any resemblence, and think a technology trade highly unlikely.
 

 [  

 The Classic Bird-of-Prey

Ah, the classic itself. A stalker in the truest sense, it was outfitted with a weapon so powerful it could blast threw shields and then threw a mile of soild asteroid to utterly destory an outpost. It also was outfitted with an advance cloaking system. Its also outfitted with primitive nuclear weapons, has limited fuel, and has simple impulse power. While not as overtly superior as the Early Bird-of-Prey was to Starfleet vessels in its date, it still had its strengths and weakness compared to Federation vessels. It was a thinking mans ship, and in the hands of a wise man, it would be a formidable opponet.

The classic Bird-of-Prey had a length of 131 meters and a crew of 150.


 

 The Romulan D7

We saw three of these in  [ The Enterprise Incident  . In popular SFB/SFC lore, the Romulans traded their cloaking technology for these warp  powered ships in a brief alliance. However, this is nothing more than speculation. For all we know the Romulans might of stolen them. We don't know how many they had, when they got them, how long in use they where, or what influence they had on future Romulan design. In the ENT area, Romulan and Klingon ships are quite different. Foward ahead to the TNG area, and Romulan and Klingon ships are once again quite different.

The behind-the-scenes reason I have heard that the D-7 was in Romulans hands in they first place is because before the shoot they dropped and damaged the Bird-of-Prey.

The ship is 228 meters in length, which far as I know is the piece of canon info on the ship.


 

 The D'deridex Warbird

Ah, the mighty D'deridex herself. Many conisder this the most beautiful ship the Romulans have. I remember when I first saw her, in  The Defector. I was sitting at the edge of my seat; the Romulans where back? What would their ships look like? What would they do? They eerie Romulan music was playing, and then bam! The D'deridex decloaking and coming up on the Enterprise fast. It seem to stop just a few meters from the Enterprise, right in its face, easily dwarfing her. It left an impression.

Roughly, the D'deridex has a length of 1200m~, a beam of 800m~, and a height of around 300m~.I emphasize the world  roughly, for we do not know the actual numbers, just the general area.

The crew number is widely to be around 1500, but this is unconfirmed. Its top speed is around 9.6, but not quite as fast as the Galaxy.

The D'deridex is outfitted with some amazing technology, which is more or less equal to the Federations. It has a next generation cloaking device which is extremely hard to detect. Tachyon fields and anti-proton being the only ones know to work, the latter only occasionally. It also has the legendary AQS drive, which many consider one of the Romulans greatest achievements. We know little about this driver other than 1), its awesome, and 2), the D'deridex has one. It is also outfitted with sensors as good as the ones the Federation has (So says Geordi).

Every website you will visit has a different weapons load for the D'deridex. In all honesty, we have no idea what kind or how many weapons the D'deridex has. We have seen it show disruptors from various places, put Romulan captains seem to favor the huge, monstrous disruptor on the foward bow. Romulan Disruptors are quite interesting as they can shoot either blasts or beams, something we haven't seen anyone else be able to do. We are they advantages and disadvantages, in what situation would a captain use one over the other? We have no idea.  I also assume the D'deridex has a complement of both plasma and photon torpedoes. My reason for the plasma is because in DS9 it was mentioned that the Romulans were storing plasma torpedoes on the moon base, and the D'deridex seems to be the Romulans main warship. My sourse for photons was another DS9, when a Romulan commander said, "Ready photon torpedoes".

As for the D'deridex shields, we know nothing about them. As for its hull strengh and armor? I personally believe that Romulans are stupid, and they understand that the D'deridex will cloaking and decloaking alot, hence they will try to give the D'deridex as strong of a hull possible and as much armor as possible, incase an enemy catches it with its pants down. But this is just my opinion, and there is no canon to support it either way.

There seem to be two camps concerning D'deridex maneuverability. One camp thinks the Warbird is highly maneuverability, the other thinks it flies like a brick. All I can say is judge for yourself. As for me, well, it seems to me that the D'deridex moves well enough on TV.

Most people consider the D'deridex the superior warship over the Galaxy. If it is, its by no more than 10 or 20 percent. It is clear that they (people producing Star Trek) intended for the D'deridex to be the Romulan equivalent of the Galaxy class, and hence its not going to be much weaker or stronger.

How many D'deridex's do the Romulans have? We don't know, but likely hundreds. How did they fare in the Dominion War? We don't know, though they where strong enough to anchor the fleet on the final assault of Cardassia. How many did the Romulans loose in the Dominion War and how many do they have left? We don't know.  

Around the time of Nemesis, the offical website says that the D'deridex was being heavily revamped and upgraded with the least boom-bang stuff. It this has any truth to it, only the future will tell.


 

 The Valdore Warbird

Ah, my favorite ship. Sleek and striking.  In Nemesis, we learned nothing at all about these ships. I was very disappointed.

The Valdore has a length of 603.5meters, a width of 911meters, and a hight of about 100meters.

We see that she has several disruptor banks. As far as I recall we never saw her shoot any torpedoes, though I am sure she has a compliment of photons and plasmas. She has the next generation wraping shields that the Scimitar and Enterprise had.

Many people consider the Valdore to be a very fast ship. They based this own the fact that only the two Valdores where able to catch up to the Scimitar and Enterprise.

While I was watching the Valdores and Enterprise fly around, I simply felt the gist that they designed (producers of Trek) the Valdore to be the Romulan equivalent of the Sovereign, just as the D'deridex was the equivalent of the Galaxy.

In all honesty, its very hard to judge how powerful this ship is, since all three ships (the two Valdores and the Enterprise) where totally ineffective against the Scimitar.

Let me quote Graham Kennedy for a moment.

 

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Both were disabled in short order, indicating that the Valdores are not generally a match for the Sovereign class ship  

 
 

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The ships didn't fare too well against the Scimitar, certainly not standing up to anything like as much punishment as the Enterprise-E did. I've rated their strengths accordingly  

 

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Although the Scimitar greatly outgunned the Enterprise, the Starfleet ship did comfortably outperform the Romulan Valdore class warbirds in the battle. The ship did eventually run out of photons and exhaust its phasers, but it took a considerable degree of battle damage and remained at least partially operational.
 

   
Now, at first glance these quotes seem reasonable and convincing enough, but lets think about this alittle.

At the very beginning of the battle, Shinzon makes the Statement "I can destroy you at will". But remember, Shinzon needs to capture Picard to save his own life. He orders his crew to disable the Enterprise. Now, they have to be very precise and methodical about it, they have to keep the full power of his ship in check in lest he accidently kill over Picard.

But Shinzon has no such need or love of Romulans. He almost gagged when a pretty Romulan woman touched him. The first thing he did was targeted all his weapons on the first Valdore and blew its wing off. Then he targeted the other Valdore and blew a big hole in that one as well. I promise you, Shinzon wasn't pulling any punches or try to disable or capture anything concerning the Valdores. He wanted them dead and used the full power of the Scimitar to accomplish this end.

Does anyone really doubt that the Scimitar couldn't have killed the Enterprise as easily it did the Valdores?


 

 The Scimitar

Ah, my favorite subject. Go grab some munchies and get a cold one to drink, this is going to be long.

Ok, ready? Then lets begin.  

First off, lets discuss the capabilites and stats of the Scimitar.

The Scimitar is 890meters long, 1,350meters beam, and about 250meters in height.

The Scimitar is armed with 52 disruptor banks,  27 photon torpedo banks, and a thalaron radiation emitter mego-deathray thing that can wipe out a fleet of ships or an entire planets population.  The Scimitar can has a perfect, undetectable cloak. It can fire while cloaked. It can raise shields while cloaked. It has secondary as well as primary shields. Its fast enough to chase down an Enterprise. It has super maneuverability. It even has a holographic projection communication thing that is utter un-traceable.

The Enterprise and the two Valdores couldn't even dent the thing. The Valdores got ripped threw like tissue paper and the Enterprise was beaten around like a redheaded stepchild. Captian Picard even ordered Deanna to do what she was best at - running into things - and not even THAT stopped the Scimitar. The things a juggernaut.

And who built this ship? Most seem to think the Remans.

The Remans are people of Remus. Remus is the twin of planet of Romulus, in the same Solar System. Remus and Romulans are the twin planets the Vulcan Exiles settled on. The Romulan Empire grew from these two orginal planets. Remus is much like Luna of earth, it rotates in such a way that one side is always facing the sun and the other always in darkness. It seems that over time the population of Remus adapted to the darkness and harshness of the planet. Remus is the prime sourse of dilithium mining and heavy weapons construction.

The Remans themselves are considering and 'undesireable' caste in the Romulan Hierarchy. They are slaves forced into slave labor on the dark and dangerous world of Remus.

We also need to remind ourselves that Remans and Shinzon are not superbeings. The Remans themselves are essentially Romulan in blood that have adapted to the harsh climate of Reman. Shinzon himself is nothing more than a clone of Picard.

So, how could the Remans, under the absolute control of the iron fisted Romulans,  design, develop, engineer, and build a ship so powerful with such advance technology that it could take on any 3 ships in the Alpha/Beta quadrants and win easily? And lets remind oursevles are not old, wisen vets at ship design and technologies; the Scimitar, IIRC, would be the first ship they ever made.

I don't believe they did.  

The Romulans, on the other hand, DO have the experince, resources, and capability to build a ship such as the Scimitar. After all, they have been in the busisness of starships for 2000 years. And the also have been on the forefront of revolutionary technologies, such as the cloak, plasma weapons, and the AQS drive. A super ship with super weapons would fit the Romulans style perfectly.

I made my argument for why I believe the Romulans where responsible for the design of the Scimitar plenty in other post. I will not go on again in here, for the simple fact of the matter because it really doesn't matter.

Remus and the Remans are part of the Romulan Star Empire. They have been since Day One. All that happened in Nemesis is that they went from being the servants to the lords, they didn't gain indepence or anything. I could say that Ford builds better trucks than Chevies, but both are American motor companies are they not? Shinzon established himself as the Romulan Praetor of the  Romulan  Star Empire. The Scimitar was flying under a  Romulan flag.

The Scimitar was built by a  Romulan planet by a  Romulan population that was largely Romulan in blood. All that happened was a party of the planet overthrew the party that was in power (and repressing them) and made themselves masters. Then the Romulan military decided that party has gone to far and and came down on  them like a hand from God, and it seems that themselves are now in Power.

So, it no matter which planet or party design and built the Scimitar and its advance technology and weapons, its still a  Romulan ship. Debating about who built is like debating who built a truck, Ford or Chevy.

Will the current government build more Scimitars and put its advance technology and weapons on the rest of the fleet? Seems to me that the could if they wish. Only time will tell.  

[Whiplash]

I only read as far as the Early Bird, so my comments are only for that.

How can you say the ship appears to be superior? We did not see enough of it to make it possible to judge. I douldn't tell if the ships could kick butt on the Enterprise. We know that the Klingon early D7 and several other races can kick butt on the Enterprise. Heck, the Klingons had photons before the Federation did. As for the Rommies, we never even got a good look at the weapons, did we? Didn't the show say they were using some sort of disruptor? Am I missing some statement such as a crew member commenting on the awesome power of some weapon they used? They clearly did not appear to be that maneuverable to me.

Making a pure speculation, if we ignore the material from Balance of Terror, I might be willing to assume that since the Vulcans have been in space so long, and that Romulans are an offshoot of Vulcans from sometime after they got interstellar space flight, that the Roms are POSSIBLY somewhere near the Vulcans in technology. But that is a big assumption that isn't really well justified.

W.
 

[Tremok]

I only read as far as the Early Bird, so my comments are only for that.

How can you say the ship appears to be superior? We did not see enough of it to make it possible to judge. I douldn't tell if the ships could kick butt on the Enterprise. We know that the Klingon early D7 and several other races can kick butt on the Enterprise. Heck, the Klingons had photons before the Federation did. As for the Rommies, we never even got a good look at the weapons, did we? Didn't the show say they were using some sort of disruptor? Am I missing some statement such as a crew member commenting on the awesome power of some weapon they used? They clearly did not appear to be that maneuverable to me.

 Lets see..

*Enterprises anti-cloak sensor probe couldn't detect the Early BoPs cloak
*As for weapons fire, the Early BoP let loose a burst that that was just 20 meters from the starboard nacelle. I judge firepower from the look on Reeds face (the I-just-pissed-my-pants look)
*The Early BoP had sensors powerful enough that the Romulans knew the exact mechanical workings of the Enterprise  
*The Enterprise couldn't scan the Early BoP. There is a precedent in Star Trek if a ship can't scan another ship then that ship is outclass.

So lets see. The anti-cloak probe the Enterprise used to detect cloaked ships before couldn't deteat the Romulan ships cloak. The Enterprises couldn't scan the Early BoP at all while the Romulans sensors where good enough to know the Enterprise has rerouted whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function.

Starships in Star Trek generally looked there abilities. The sleek and modern lines of the Early BoP indicates is relatively powerful and capable ship.

This is what I base my judgement on. As far as maneuverability, its impossible to judge, since neither ships moved, but simply sat there and stared each other down.


Making a pure speculation, if we ignore the material from Balance of Terror, I might be willing to assume that since the Vulcans have been in space so long, and that Romulans are an offshoot of Vulcans from sometime after they got interstellar space flight, that the Roms are POSSIBLY somewhere near the Vulcans in technology. But that is a big assumption that isn't really well justified.

 Romulans are an ancient race, who have been flying among the stars for around 2000 years. The Romulans should had, more or less, whatever space technology the Vulcans had when they left the Vulcan in exile those 2000 years ago. How far each race has progress in relation to each other, we don't know. While I believe we know enough about the Early BoP to judge it superior to the NX-01, we do not know enough to compare of the Vulcan ships of the period.
 

[Alidar Jarok]

Although a big Romulan fan myself, I'll try to be a bit less biased

 Recently I have beening writing enough about Romulans, their ships and their technologies to write a book. So, I have decided to consolildate everything here, for ease of discussions. So, alas, lets begin.

 
 

 The Early Bird-of-Prey

This is an attractive little ship that first appeared in the episode  Minefield. So what do we know about her?

She seems to be superior to any Klingon or Starfleet ship in the era.  She appears to be equipped with an advance cloaking device that the Enterprise probe couldn't detect. The ship is equipped with shields. The ship has weapon(s) on its bow, and they appear highly accurate and powerful.  The ship has superior sensors, knowing exactly what was happening on Enterprise to the greatest detail. The is also advance enough that Enterprise couldn't get scan her (you know your outclassed when that happens).

The real question is what type of warp drive/core does she have? Most everyone agrees that this Early Bird-of-Prey is warp capable.  Considering how advance this ship is, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume this ship has a more advance warp drive? Vulcans, the Romulans cousins, have ships that are flying around at warp 7 right now. Hmm, guess the only answer is wait and see.

Many think the Early Bird-of-Prey have similar warp nacelles, and think it suggests a technology trade. Personally, I don't see any resemblence, and think a technology trade highly unlikely.

The only similarity is the diagonal necelles, I agree that there probably isn't a trade.

Here is what I will say.

The Early Bird of Prey clearly has a cloak powerful enough that Enterprise's primitive sensors could not pick it up.  It is liekly that even the Vulcans don't have sensors powerful enough, as they hadn't seen a Suliban cloak either.

This ship is probably equivalent to the Enterprise in speed, time will tell if it is faster or slower.  It does not have the M/AM reactor of the Enterprise, so it can run out of power and can't be used for deep space exploration, such as the mission of the enterprise.

Its sensors are much more advanced than "Earth's Finest."  They are equal to the sensor capibilities of the Vulcans, maybe better (the full capibilites of Vulcan sensors have not yet been seen, same with Romulans).  They also allow for precision targeting to "make their point"

Its weapons clearly consist of a FTL projectile.  I do not remember if it was called a disruptor (a weapon not even encountered from the Klingons yet).  I strongly beleive that it wasn't a disruptor, but an atomic projectile, similar to the Spatial Torpedoes of the Enterprise, only much faster (this is to preserve the Balance of Terror statement that the E/R War was fought with primitive Atomics)

It is superior to the Klingon Raptor, which is only a scout.  It is also probably better than the Enterprise (at least in the technical aspects.  Its weapon power is unknown).  It probably equal or worse than the D5.


 

 The Classic Bird-of-Prey

Ah, the classic itself. A stalker in the truest sense, it was outfitted with a weapon so powerful it could blast threw shields and then threw a mile of soild asteroid to utterly destory an outpost. It also was outfitted with an advance cloaking system. Its also outfitted with primitive nuclear weapons, has limited fuel, and has simple impulse power. While not as overtly superior as the Early Bird-of-Prey was to Starfleet vessels in its date, it still had its strengths and weakness compared to Federation vessels. It was a thinking mans ship, and in the hands of a wise man, it would be a formidable opponet.

The classic Bird-of-Prey had a length of 131 meters and a crew of 150.

The ship did have strengths and weaknesses.  Although it did have the raw firepower, Plasma torpedoes had a limited range and took tremndous power.  It could defeat a Constitution class easily, but could be destroyed easily.



 The Romulan D7

We saw three of these in  [ The Enterprise Incident  . In popular SFB/SFC lore, the Romulans traded their cloaking technology for these warp  powered ships in a brief alliance. However, this is nothing more than speculation. For all we know the Romulans might of stolen them. We don't know how many they had, when they got them, how long in use they where, or what influence they had on future Romulan design. In the ENT area, Romulan and Klingon ships are quite different. Foward ahead to the TNG area, and Romulan and Klingon ships are once again quite different.

The behind-the-scenes reason I have heard that the D-7 was in Romulans hands in they first place is because before the shoot they dropped and damaged the Bird-of-Prey.

The ship is 228 meters in length, which far as I know is the piece of canon info on the ship.

Actually, the reason for use is that Paramount had spent alot of money making these ships.  They wanted as many opportunities as possible to use it.

This ship is larger than the Bird of Prey and more durable.  When equipped with a cloak it became more effective than the Klingon's version.  The best explination on the reason of their use is this:

The test of the Bird of Prey was a failure.  Although the ship showed promise, it didn't do what it was supposed to do.  Later, the captains of these ships were outsmarted and failed to destroy one ship when they outnumbered it 12-1.  It was decided to use the Klingon vessel.   These ships were used as an elite force, but the bulk of the navy is the still the Bird of Prey



 The D'deridex Warbird

Ah, the mighty D'deridex herself. Many conisder this the most beautiful ship the Romulans have. I remember when I first saw her, in  The Defector. I was sitting at the edge of my seat; the Romulans where back? What would their ships look like? What would they do? They eerie Romulan music was playing, and then bam! The D'deridex decloaking and coming up on the Enterprise fast. It seem to stop just a few meters from the Enterprise, right in its face, easily dwarfing her. It left an impression.

Roughly, the D'deridex has a length of 1200m~, a beam of 800m~, and a height of around 300m~.I emphasize the world  roughly, for we do not know the actual numbers, just the general area.

The crew number is widely to be around 1500, but this is unconfirmed. Its top speed is around 9.6, but not quite as fast as the Galaxy.

The D'deridex is outfitted with some amazing technology, which is more or less equal to the Federations. It has a next generation cloaking device which is extremely hard to detect. Tachyon fields and anti-proton being the only ones know to work, the latter only occasionally. It also has the legendary AQS drive, which many consider one of the Romulans greatest achievements. We know little about this driver other than 1), its awesome, and 2), the D'deridex has one. It is also outfitted with sensors as good as the ones the Federation has (So says Geordi).

Every website you will visit has a different weapons load for the D'deridex. In all honesty, we have no idea what kind or how many weapons the D'deridex has. We have seen it show disruptors from various places, put Romulan captains seem to favor the huge, monstrous disruptor on the foward bow. Romulan Disruptors are quite interesting as they can shoot either blasts or beams, something we haven't seen anyone else be able to do. We are they advantages and disadvantages, in what situation would a captain use one over the other? We have no idea.  I also assume the D'deridex has a complement of both plasma and photon torpedoes. My reason for the plasma is because in DS9 it was mentioned that the Romulans were storing plasma torpedoes on the moon base, and the D'deridex seems to be the Romulans main warship. My sourse for photons was another DS9, when a Romulan commander said, "Ready photon torpedoes".

As for the D'deridex shields, we know nothing about them. As for its hull strengh and armor? I personally believe that Romulans are stupid, and they understand that the D'deridex will cloaking and decloaking alot, hence they will try to give the D'deridex as strong of a hull possible and as much armor as possible, incase an enemy catches it with its pants down. But this is just my opinion, and there is no canon to support it either way.

There seem to be two camps concerning D'deridex maneuverability. One camp thinks the Warbird is highly maneuverability, the other thinks it flies like a brick. All I can say is judge for yourself. As for me, well, it seems to me that the D'deridex moves well enough on TV.

Most people consider the D'deridex the superior warship over the Galaxy. If it is, its by no more than 10 or 20 percent. It is clear that they (people producing Star Trek) intended for the D'deridex to be the Romulan equivalent of the Galaxy class, and hence its not going to be much weaker or stronger.

How many D'deridex's do the Romulans have? We don't know, but likely hundreds. How did they fare in the Dominion War? We don't know, though they where strong enough to anchor the fleet on the final assault of Cardassia. How many did the Romulans loose in the Dominion War and how many do they have left? We don't know.  

Around the time of Nemesis, the offical website says that the D'deridex was being heavily revamped and upgraded with the least boom-bang stuff. It this has any truth to it, only the future will tell.

The D'deridex is also my favorite Warbird.  The Defector is one of my favorite episodes.  Here you get 2 really cool Warbird uncloaking scenes (the first is the ship chasing Jarok's Scout), my favorite is the one near the end where they appear out of knowhere

I almost jumped out of my skin when I saw them appear, caught me completely by suprise

Anyway, I'll say my analisis of the D'deridex.

Armed with many Disruptors (IMO, anything it fires that is green is a disruptor.  The "phaser" in "Contagion" was a disruptor)
It has one main cannon which fires a shot that is more powerful then a Phaser, but weaker than a Photon Torpedo.  It has considerably faster rate of fire than Photons, but much less range.  It is also equipped with Photon Torpedoes (Tech manual) which aren't as powerful as Fed Photons (Being fair to the less fortunate races) and Plasma Torpedoes (DS9) that are useful for attacking bases and the occasional ship.

The ship appears to be just as manuverable as the Galaxy (which also has an underated manuverability).  It is less manuverable than the Sovereign, though.

DITL.org had this theory that, since this ship is the only major ship seen, it has to be weaker.  I strongly disagree with this, especially since he has no canon facts to back this.

First off, whenever the Federation encounters the Romulans, the Romulans always encounter a Galaxy.  Too be fair, the Romulans send more ships, but that's because they are better prepared.  In the Dominion Wars, although you see a lot of D'deridex's, you will probably see more Galaxy classes.  By the middle of TNG, Data gives a ratio of cadets that make an assignment on a Galaxy class.  This ratio strongly suggests a minimum of 25 Galaxys before war time production (the Romulans are almost always at war time levels)  Finally, I've always beleived that, while the Federation will build a Galaxy class and 2 Nebula classes, the Romulans will build 2 D'deridex's instead.



Scout Ship

This ship is about the size of a Klingon Bird of Prey, and holds the same scouting duties.




 The Valdore Warbird

Ah, my favorite ship. Sleek and striking.  In Nemesis, we learned nothing at all about these ships. I was very disappointed.

The Valdore has a length of 603.5meters, a width of 911meters, and a hight of about 100meters.

We see that she has several disruptor banks. As far as I recall we never saw her shoot any torpedoes, though I am sure she has a compliment of photons and plasmas. She has the next generation wraping shields that the Scimitar and Enterprise had.

Many people consider the Valdore to be a very fast ship. They based this own the fact that only the two Valdores where able to catch up to the Scimitar and Enterprise.

While I was watching the Valdores and Enterprise fly around, I simply felt the gist that they designed (producers of Trek) the Valdore to be the Romulan equivalent of the Sovereign, just as the D'deridex was the equivalent of the Galaxy.

In all honesty, its very hard to judge how powerful this ship is, since all three ships (the two Valdores and the Enterprise) where totally ineffective against the Scimitar.

Let me quote Graham Kennedy for a moment.

 

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Both were disabled in short order, indicating that the Valdores are not generally a match for the Sovereign class ship  

 
 

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The ships didn't fare too well against the Scimitar, certainly not standing up to anything like as much punishment as the Enterprise-E did. I've rated their strengths accordingly

 

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Although the Scimitar greatly outgunned the Enterprise, the Starfleet ship did comfortably outperform the Romulan Valdore class warbirds in the battle. The ship did eventually run out of photons and exhaust its phasers, but it took a considerable degree of battle damage and remained at least partially operational.
 

   
Now, at first glance these quotes seem reasonable and convincing enough, but lets think about this alittle.

At the very beginning of the battle, Shinzon makes the Statement "I can destroy you at will". But remember, Shinzon needs to capture Picard to save his own life. He orders his crew to disable the Enterprise. Now, they have to be very precise and methodical about it, they have to keep the full power of his ship in check in lest he accidently kill over Picard.

But Shinzon has no such need or love of Romulans. He almost gagged when a pretty Romulan woman touched him. The first thing he did was targeted all his weapons on the first Valdore and blew its wing off. Then he targeted the other Valdore and blew a big hole in that one as well. I promise you, Shinzon wasn't pulling any punches or try to disable or capture anything concerning the Valdores. He wanted them dead and used the full power of the Scimitar to accomplish this end.

Does anyone really doubt that the Scimitar couldn't have killed the Enterprise as easily it did the Valdores?

I agree completely.  I think Valdore is basically an equal to the Sovereign.  It doesn't really have any improvements in weapons power over a D'deridex, as a D'deridex has similar firepower to the Sovereign.  What it does match is the speed and manuverbility.  I think the Sovereign is a bit stronger, but doesn't have a cloak



 The Scimitar

Ah, my favorite subject. Go grab some munchies and get a cold one to drink, this is going to be long.

Ok, ready? Then lets begin.  

First off, lets discuss the capabilites and stats of the Scimitar.

The Scimitar is 890meters long, 1,350meters beam, and about 250meters in height.

The Scimitar is armed with 52 disruptor banks,  27 photon torpedo banks, and a thalaron radiation emitter mego-deathray thing that can wipe out a fleet of ships or an entire planets population.  The Scimitar can has a perfect, undetectable cloak. It can fire while cloaked. It can raise shields while cloaked. It has secondary as well as primary shields. Its fast enough to chase down an Enterprise. It has super maneuverability. It even has a holographic projection communication thing that is utter un-traceable.

The Enterprise and the two Valdores couldn't even dent the thing. The Valdores got ripped threw like tissue paper and the Enterprise was beaten around like a redheaded stepchild. Captian Picard even ordered Deanna to do what she was best at - running into things - and not even THAT stopped the Scimitar. The things a juggernaut.

And who built this ship? Most seem to think the Remans.

The Remans are people of Remus. Remus is the twin of planet of Romulus, in the same Solar System. Remus and Romulans are the twin planets the Vulcan Exiles settled on. The Romulan Empire grew from these two orginal planets. Remus is much like Luna of earth, it rotates in such a way that one side is always facing the sun and the other always in darkness. It seems that over time the population of Remus adapted to the darkness and harshness of the planet. Remus is the prime sourse of dilithium mining and heavy weapons construction.

The Remans themselves are considering and 'undesireable' caste in the Romulan Hierarchy. They are slaves forced into slave labor on the dark and dangerous world of Remus.

We also need to remind ourselves that Remans and Shinzon are not superbeings. The Remans themselves are essentially Romulan in blood that have adapted to the harsh climate of Reman. Shinzon himself is nothing more than a clone of Picard.

So, how could the Remans, under the absolute control of the iron fisted Romulans,  design, develop, engineer, and build a ship so powerful with such advance technology that it could take on any 3 ships in the Alpha/Beta quadrants and win easily? And lets remind oursevles are not old, wisen vets at ship design and technologies; the Scimitar, IIRC, would be the first ship they ever made.

I don't believe they did.  

The Romulans, on the other hand, DO have the experince, resources, and capability to build a ship such as the Scimitar. After all, they have been in the busisness of starships for 2000 years. And the also have been on the forefront of revolutionary technologies, such as the cloak, plasma weapons, and the AQS drive. A super ship with super weapons would fit the Romulans style perfectly.

I made my argument for why I believe the Romulans where responsible for the design of the Scimitar plenty in other post. I will not go on again in here, for the simple fact of the matter because it really doesn't matter.

Remus and the Remans are part of the Romulan Star Empire. They have been since Day One. All that happened in Nemesis is that they went from being the servants to the lords, they didn't gain indepence or anything. I could say that Ford builds better trucks than Chevies, but both are American motor companies are they not? Shinzon established himself as the Romulan Praetor of the  Romulan  Star Empire. The Scimitar was flying under a  Romulan flag.

The Scimitar was built by a  Romulan planet by a  Romulan population that was largely Romulan in blood. All that happened was a party of the planet overthrew the party that was in power (and repressing them) and made themselves masters. Then the Romulan military decided that party has gone to far and and came down on  them like a hand from God, and it seems that themselves are now in Power.

So, it no matter which planet or party design and built the Scimitar and its advance technology and weapons, its still a  Romulan ship. Debating about who built is like debating who built a truck, Ford or Chevy.

Will the current government build more Scimitars and put its advance technology and weapons on the rest of the fleet? Seems to me that the could if they wish. Only time will tell.

All I'll say is that I think that the Scimitar will not go into mass production.  It is a monstrosity that only the Dominion would have the resources to use.  The Romulans will probably not use Thalaron radiation weaponry.  

The new cloak will undoubtably be used in all Romulan ships.  Even if they signed a treaty to prevent them from using the new coak, why would they follow it?

In "The Neutral Zone", when asked why they entered the Neutral Zone, their response was "Even to ask such a question implies that we need permission; we do not.
"

Eventually, this new cloak will be rendered obsolete and the search for a better claok will continue.        

[supe_k]

Tremok,
Not to be too critical in your analysis, but as I recall Earth's moon has the same rotation and revolutionary period.  This means that only one face of the moon will face the Earth, not the Sun.  

[Tremok]

Quote:
Tremok,
Not to be too critical in your analysis, but as I recall Earth's moon has the same rotation and revolutionary period.  This means that only one face of the moon will face the Earth, not the Sun.  

Lol, you got me there. I never meant the moon always faces the sun, but always faces the earth. For the same reasons I believe, but I could be incorrect.  

[Tremok]

Although a big Romulan fan myself, I'll try to be a bit less biased

Ouch! Scathing. Lets see if you can prove me wrong. I do love a good debate.

The only similarity is the diagonal necelles, I agree that there probably isn't a trade.

Here is what I will say.

The Early Bird of Prey clearly has a cloak powerful enough that Enterprise's primitive sensors could not pick it up.  It is liekly that even the Vulcans don't have sensors powerful enough, as they hadn't seen a Suliban cloak either.

 Vulcan sensors couldn't break a Suliban cloak? Interesting.  

This ship is probably equivalent to the Enterprise in speed, time will tell if it is faster or slower.

 We have absolutely no idea how fast the Early BoP is.  

 It does not have the M/AM reactor of the Enterprise, so it can run out of power and can't be used for deep space exploration, such as the mission of the enterprise.

 Most seem to think Minefield proves that Romulan BoPs can travel faster than light. As for what method they Early BoP can use, we have absolutely no idea.  

Its sensors are much more advanced than "Earth's Finest."  They are equal to the sensor capibilities of the Vulcans, maybe better (the full capibilites of Vulcan sensors have not yet been seen, same with Romulans).  They also allow for precision targeting to "make their point"

 I agree, Romulan sensors proved themselves to be extremely capable.  

Its weapons clearly consist of a FTL projectile.

 It looked like a energy weapon to me. What makes you think otherwise?  

I do not remember if it was called a disruptor (a weapon not even encountered from the Klingons yet).

 Don't get too nit picky on me now. You knew when I said disruptor I meant an energy weapon that furst in burst.    

I strongly beleive that it wasn't a disruptor, but an atomic projectile, similar to the Spatial Torpedoes of the Enterprise, only much faster (this is to preserve the Balance of Terror statement that the E/R War was fought with primitive Atomics)

It is superior to the Klingon Raptor, which is only a scout.  It is also probably better than the Enterprise (at least in the technical aspects.  Its weapon power is unknown).  It probably equal or worse than the D5.

 If it is superior to the Raptor, than it IS superior to the Enterprise. Remember now, the Raptor had photon torpedoes and a hull that was three times as strong as the Enterprises.

But, we know very little of the Early BoP, not enough to compare it to the higher end Klingon ships just yet. But we do I believe know enough about it to consider it superior to the Enterprise.  

 

The ship did have strengths and weaknesses.  Although it did have the raw firepower, Plasma torpedoes had a limited range and took tremndous power.  It could defeat a Constitution class easily, but could be destroyed easily.

 I personally judge it a match that the better Captain would win.  



 The Romulan D7


Actually, the reason for use is that Paramount had spent alot of money making these ships.  They wanted as many opportunities as possible to use it.

 This is true. TOS had a very limited budget.  

This ship is larger than the Bird of Prey and more durable.

 You say so. Just seems to me that Kirk manage to beat them around pretty easily.  


 The best explination on the reason of their use is this:The test of the Bird of Prey was a failure.

 This is true.  

Although the ship showed promise, it didn't do what it was supposed to do.  Later, the captains of these ships were outsmarted and failed to destroy one ship when they outnumbered it 12-1.  It was decided to use the Klingon vessel.   These ships were used as an elite force, but the bulk of the navy is the still the Bird of Prey

 I suppose so; they never did, as far as I know, give us a canon reason why the Romulans  

The D'deridex is also my favorite Warbird.  The Defector is one of my favorite episodes.  Here you get 2 really cool Warbird uncloaking scenes (the first is the ship chasing Jarok's Scout), my favorite is the one near the end where they appear out of knowhere

 I remember the scenes very well. The cool Romulan theme music as well as the D'deridex speeding up to the Enterprise and getting right in its face had my thinking "Boy, that Warbird is pissed"  

I almost jumped out of my skin when I saw them appear, caught me completely by suprise

Anyway, I'll say my analisis of the D'deridex.

Armed with many Disruptors (IMO, anything it fires that is green is a disruptor.  The "phaser" in "Contagion" was a disruptor)

 Agreed. Burst or beam, it still a Romulan Disruptor.  

It has one main cannon which fires a shot that is more powerful then a Phaser, but weaker than a Photon Torpedo.  It has considerably faster rate of fire than Photons, but much less range.  It is also equipped with Photon Torpedoes (Tech manual) which aren't as powerful as Fed Photons (Being fair to the less fortunate races) and Plasma Torpedoes (DS9) that are useful for attacking bases and the occasional ship.

 If you say so. Personally, I have see any canon sources concerning ranges, cool down ratess,  or damage vaules concerning D'deridex weapons, so I didn't type anything about them.

I just know in  Tin Man, a D'deridex opened up on the Enterprise and "Shields down to 17 percent!"  

The ship appears to be just as manuverable as the Galaxy (which also has an underated manuverability).  It is less manuverable than the Sovereign, though.

 Guess you can say that if your using Nemesis as your source.  

DITL.org had this theory that, since this ship is the only major ship seen, it has to be weaker.  I strongly disagree with this, especially since he has no canon facts to back this.

 Take anything you find at DILT.org with lots and lots of salt.  

First off, whenever the Federation encounters the Romulans, the Romulans always encounter a Galaxy.  Too be fair, the Romulans send more ships, but that's because they are better prepared.  In the Dominion Wars, although you see a lot of D'deridex's, you will probably see more Galaxy classes.

 We never see any more than 4 or 5 Galaxies in a fleet. Though, we sometimes see dozens if not more of D'deridexes when the Romulans send there  fleets to battle.    

By the middle of TNG, Data gives a ratio of cadets that make an assignment on a Galaxy class.  This ratio strongly suggests a minimum of 25 Galaxys before war time production

 I believe in the area of 25-75 myself.  

(the Romulans are almost always at war time levels)  Finally, I've always beleived that, while the Federation will build a Galaxy class and 2 Nebula classes, the Romulans will build 2 D'deridex's instead.

 Why do you think that? I believe the Federation tends to use many thousands of ships, and each ship tends to be specialized for a specific role, while threw 10 years of TNG and DS9, the only major Romulan Warship we saw was the D'deridex. I simply believe the Romulan builds as many D'deridex as it can.  



Scout Ship

This ship is about the size of a Klingon Bird of Prey, and holds the same scouting duties.

 Guess you can say that, considering we only saw the ship once, and we know absolutely nothing about it. Also, which size BoP are you talking about? They come from kids cheese burger to double quarter pounder.  

I agree completely.  I think Valdore is basically an equal to the Sovereign.  It doesn't really have any improvements in weapons power over a D'deridex, as a D'deridex has similar firepower to the Sovereign.  What it does match is the speed and manuverbility.  I think the Sovereign is a bit stronger, but doesn't have a cloak

 You say so. We know absolutely nothing of the Valdore. It just seems to be that the intended for the Valdore to be the Romulan equivalent to the Sovereign as the D'deridex was the Romulan equivalent  to the Galaxy. I believe we need more info the Valdore before we compare the ships more specifically.


All I'll say is that I think that the Scimitar will not go into mass production.  It is a monstrosity that only the Dominion would have the resources to use.

 The Romulans have enough resources to build hundreds of D'deridexes, which all in all, are about the same size. I am sure they can build a few. No more than 12, but maybe 2 or 3.  

The Romulans will probably not use Thalaron radiation weaponry.  

 You say so.  

The new cloak will undoubtably be used in all Romulan ships.  Even if they signed a treaty to prevent them from using the new coak, why would they follow it?

 What if all the new, advance technologies of the Scimitar relied on a Thalaron power source?

This is the best counterpoint to my writings so far: If the already very powerful D'deridex and Valdores were outfitted with the Scimitars advance technology, the Romulans military power could not be counter, and they would run rampant all over the place. Some technobabble is probably needed to get the Romulans from being TOO powerful.
 

In "The Neutral Zone", when asked why they entered the Neutral Zone, their response was "Even to ask such a question implies that we need permission; we do not.
"

Eventually, this new cloak will be rendered obsolete and the search for a better claok will continue.        

 Such is the evolution of weapons. In TOS, Romulan technoloy didn't seem as advance as the Federations. In TNG/DS9, Romulan technology is more or less equal to the Federations. In Nemesis, Romulan technology seems to be pulling ahead of the Federations by a considerable marginal.

Just an interesting evolution of Romulan technology.    

[DavT]

This thread needs to be posted when I have more time, not right before two exams!

*tackles few points in no particular order*

ENT BoP tactical systems:
Probably not atomic weapons or FTL projectiles. Why not atomic? Beats me, but they really looked like energy pulses, rather than anything physical. And personally, I would not waste nuclear ammo on multiple warning shots. Also, most races employs energy weapons for practical purposes. You can't just rely on explosive weapons 100% of the time, they have limitations, especially nukes. Why not FTL? Because we saw them, that's why. FTL weapons would not have been seen because of their speed. They are also very technologically demanding, you probably don't want to have them as far back as ENT, too advanced.

Also, we've seen Romulan BoPs use something other than plasma bowling balls in TOS. In "The Deadly Years", the BoPs swarming the Ent-nil were firing little globes of energy that were definately not plasma torpedoes. I think they could have been energy weapons. This would establish a clear lineage for Romulan (pulsed) energy weapon, from ENT to TOS to TNG to DS9.  

As for shields, until we see some, I really don't think the Romulans have any shields back then. It would overly tip the strategic balance in their favour, and make Earth victory in the Earth/Romulan War questionable.

Who built the Scimitar:
Despite Tremok's very good points, I still argue that the Scimitar was a Reman creation. Why? Because our Picard wannabe said so. That should be enough right there. We can try to come up with different ways to interpret and twist Shinzon's words, but if we stick right to it, he said the Remans built the Scimitars. He also said the Remans had assemble a significant force and came to Romulus in force. Evidentally, the Reman does have some resources available to them, more than people think they do. The Remans do after all represent a majority of the population on Remus, and the Romulans can't hope to watch over an entire planet without missing something every now and then, which adds up. Even if there aren't as many Remans as Romulans in the Empire, there must still be hundred of millions on Remus. Plus, during the Dominion War, the Romulans relaxed their grip on the Remans in order to use them as a combat force. The Scimitar could very well have been conceived during that troubled time, when the Romulans had something more pressing to worry about then their own oppressed minority secretly building a planet-killer. Like them genicidal Dominions.

Also, Remus isn't just a dillithium mine, it also has heavy weapons factory. Assuming those factories are also run by the Remans (quite probable, they built the factory near a source of labour, they have no reason to be there otherwise), that means the Reman population does comprise of skilled workers and technicians to some degree. And the Scimitar is really just a big heavy weapon, no more, no less. The Scimitar's design really contrasted away from what we've seen of Romulan designs, which is elegant at least in some way. Instead, the Scimitar is very crude, dark, utilitarian, and more like something a hard people would build. And remember, there was only one Scimitar, which should not be too hard to manage for a people capable of rising up and landing on Romulus in force. It make sense that if the Remans only had so much resources, they would make something that cannot be easily overwhelmed by the numerically superior Romulans, plus it having a nasty little Easter egg inside.

I still believe that with the sheer hatred between Romulans and Remans, the Romulans would never put something as powerful as the Scimitar under Reman control. It's quite literally, suicidal.

Lastly, there is no reason to include the Remans in the coup on Romulus at all, unless they had something unique to offer. If the Scimitar was a Romulan ship, they could have manned it with Romulans from the start and done Earth away with like they were promised, instead of the Romulan military officers being forced to yield to Shinzon's own priorities. It doesn't make any sense for the Romulans to shoot their own operation in the leg by placing someone like Shinzon in control of the single most powerful weapon the Empire ever produced. That's why I say that the Scimitar is a Reman creation.  

[Tremok]

This thread needs to be posted when I have more time, not right before two exams!

*tackles few points in no particular order*

ENT BoP tactical systems:
Probably not atomic weapons or FTL projectiles. Why not atomic? Beats me, but they really looked like energy pulses, rather than anything physical. And personally, I would not waste nuclear ammo on multiple warning shots. Also, most races employs energy weapons for practical purposes. You can't just rely on explosive weapons 100% of the time, they have limitations, especially nukes. Why not FTL? Because we saw them, that's why. FTL weapons would not have been seen because of their speed. They are also very technologically demanding, you probably don't want to have them as far back as ENT, too advanced.

 I believe it is said by Reed, "There shields are deflecting our sensor scans"  

Also, we've seen Romulan BoPs use something other than plasma bowling balls in TOS. In "The Deadly Years", the BoPs swarming the Ent-nil were firing little globes of energy that were definately not plasma torpedoes. I think they could have been energy weapons. This would establish a clear lineage for Romulan (pulsed) energy weapon, from ENT to TOS to TNG to DS9.  

As for shields, until we see some, I really don't think the Romulans have any shields back then. It would overly tip the strategic balance in their favour, and make Earth victory in the Earth/Romulan War questionable.

Who built the Scimitar:
Despite Tremok's very good points, I still argue that the Scimitar was a Reman creation. Why? Because our Picard wannabe said so. That should be enough right there. We can try to come up with different ways to interpret and twist Shinzon's words, but if we stick right to it, he said the Remans built the Scimitars.

 I really don't care what faction of the Empire was responsible for the Scimitar anymore, since it doesn't matter. But I will bite anyway. Yes, the Remans built the thing. But who designed, engineered, and developed is the question. Remember it is also said in the movie that Shinzon and the Remans would of gotten no where without the help of the Romulan militar.    

He also said the Remans had assemble a significant force and came to Romulus in force. Evidentally, the Reman does have some resources available to them, more than people think they do. The Remans do after all represent a majority of the population on Remus, and the Romulans can't hope to watch over an entire planet without missing something every now and then, which adds up. Even if there aren't as many Remans as Romulans in the Empire, there must still be hundred of millions on Remus. Plus, during the Dominion War, the Romulans relaxed their grip on the Remans in order to use them as a combat force. The Scimitar could very well have been conceived during that troubled time, when the Romulans had something more pressing to worry about then their own oppressed minority secretly building a planet-killer. Like them genicidal Dominions.

 Remember, the Romulans have the best secret police and intelligence organizations in Star Trek. History has show these to be very effective.  We all saw the movie; the towering Romulan guards at every corner glaring over the Remans, and beating them into place if they got out of line.    

Also, Remus isn't just a dillithium mine, it also has heavy weapons factory. Assuming those factories are also run by the Remans (quite probable, they built the factory near a source of labour, they have no reason to be there otherwise), that means the Reman population does comprise of skilled workers and technicians to some degree. And the Scimitar is really just a big heavy weapon, no more, no less.

 Weapons are only a part of a Starship. What about the warp drive? What would the Remans know about that? The Scimitar was able to run down a Sovereign class ship, while a D'deridex couldn't even run down a Galaxy. The Scimitar have super maneuverability. Where did the Remans learn to make a a ship that big so maneuverable? What about the very power primary and secondary shield system the Scimitar used? The Remans could build very powerful weapons, but what do they have to do with shield design, technology, and construction. The perfect cloak that is utterly undetechable,  and allows you to raise shields while cloaked and allows you to fire while cloak. The holograhpic projection communication system. Sure, the Remans make awesome weapons, and have the facilities to design and construct them, but where did all this other revolutionary technology come from?      

The Scimitar's design really contrasted away from what we've seen of Romulan designs, which is elegant at least in some way. Instead, the Scimitar is very crude, dark, utilitarian, and more like something a hard people would build.

 This is true, but it still has the Warbird look about it. John Eaves himself is quoted to as saying he intended that the Scimitar looked like it descended from the Valdore.  

And remember, there was only one Scimitar, which should not be too hard to manage for a people capable of rising up and landing on Romulus in force.

 Wasn't it said in the movie that it took all of Remus resources to built the Scimitar?  

It make sense that if the Remans only had so much resources, they would make something that cannot be easily overwhelmed by the numerically superior Romulans, plus it having a nasty little Easter egg inside.

 Everybody wants a ship that is superior to everyone elses ship.  

I still believe that with the sheer hatred between Romulans and Remans, the Romulans would never put something as powerful as the Scimitar under Reman control. It's quite literally, suicidal.

Lastly, there is no reason to include the Remans in the coup on Romulus at all, unless they had something unique to offer. If the Scimitar was a Romulan ship, they could have manned it with Romulans from the start and done Earth away with like they were promised, instead of the Romulan military officers being forced to yield to Shinzon's own priorities. It doesn't make any sense for the Romulans to shoot their own operation in the leg by placing someone like Shinzon in control of the single most powerful weapon the Empire ever produced. That's why I say that the Scimitar is a Reman creation.  

 Lets think about this.

First, we know the Romulan military had no love of the current government. After all, they helped kill off. Who is to say they didn't try to build the ship first, but the Praetor/Senate wouldn't let them, as it would be too costly/unnecessary/somesuch?  

So they give they the Remans a few of there revolutionary iteams that have been on the drawing board. They don't give them all there aces, but some. So, the Scimitar may be either of Romulan or Reman design, outfitted with the best of Reman weapons, plus a new Thalaron superweapon, and the revolutionary Romulan projects like the cloak and warp core. The movie seems to support this. as the Scimitar, though filled will awesome technologies, also seem to have some rather primitive systems, such as they pop-out thrusters needed to go in reverse, and flips and switches at the control stations.

What do the Romulans gain from this, you ask? It gives them a chance to test their technologies, to see if they are actually worht it or not. If Shinzon and the Remans failed to other throw the government,  the Romulan military had a strong scape goat and good plasuable deniability. If they worked, they proven the technologies AND have taken out a government they didn't like. So, now they let the Shinzon and the Remans parade around for a while. The now dead government was probably well liked, and they Romulan populace would hate being ruled over by an inferior human and his Remans. After letting the populaces hate simmer, the Romulan military will rise up and dispatch Shinzon and the Remans, and will establish themselves the government, where they people will love them and they will have no opposition.

Might even be alittle deeper than that. It be plotters WITHIN the military, who will raise up and say, "look at what the oofs at the head of our military did? The man the Remans in charge of us all!". And of course THEY will overthrow Shinzon, and then killed off the military's top leaders. Then they will establish themselves government, and public mourn and pay respect to the old goverment Shinzon orignally killed off, and the Romulan people will love them.

Lets remember now, the Scimitar and its technologies proved themselves to be awesome and revolutionary. The Remans have established everything, all the complexes, facturies, research complexes, supply bases, ect. So after the have killed of Shinzon and the Remans, they just have to step in and take over all that was conviently set up and built for them.

And of course, they go and make nice with the Federation. They are happy, the Federation is happy, the populace is happy.

   

[supe_k]

Tremok,
I understood what you meant.  I just like help people with some facts if I can.  

[Alidar Jarok]

Vulcan sensors couldn't break a Suliban cloak? Interesting.

They hadn't seen a Suliban cloak to start with.  It was Daneils who told Archer how to see them.  They could track their engine Residue, though

Most seem to think Minefield proves that Romulan BoPs can travel faster than light. As for what method they Early BoP can use, we have absolutely no idea.

No we don't.  But if we assume the TOS Bird of Prey is equally capable with its warp drive, it probably has a fusion reactor as a power source.  This means it would have a limited range.  Eventually it would have to turn back and re-feul.

It looked like a energy weapon to me. What makes you think otherwise?

I have withdrawn my statement.  I forgot to think about heavy weapons.  Their primary weapon could have been what they fired, Atomics would be their heavy, possibly exactly like Spatial Torpedoes (No there is no reason to suggest a Spatial Torpedo is Atomic either, but there is no reason to suggest it isn't)
 
If it is superior to the Raptor, than it IS superior to the Enterprise. Remember now, the Raptor had photon torpedoes and a hull that was three times as strong as the Enterprises.

Are you thinking of the Raptor, or the Battlecruiser from unexpected.  I think the Raptor was diabled when they found it, my memory is a little sketchy

I personally judge it a match that the better Captain would win.

That is what I meant
 
You say so. Just seems to me that Kirk manage to beat them around pretty easily.

They didn't fight much.  Not in Trouble with Tribbles and not in Day of the Dove.  I don't remmeber any other Klingon battle

If you say so. Personally, I have see any canon sources concerning ranges, cool down ratess, or damage vaules concerning D'deridex weapons, so I didn't type anything about them.
I just know in Tin Man, a D'deridex opened up on the Enterprise and "Shields down to 17 percent!"

I am basing it on Tin Man.  You hear about 9 shots fired in about 5 seconds (3 of them on screen, fired by the main cannon)

We never see any more than 4 or 5 Galaxies in a fleet. Though, we sometimes see dozens if not more of D'deridexes when the Romulans send there fleets to battle.

If I find the discussion I saw about total numbers, I'll post a link.  Someone suggested that, based on the ratio of Galaxies, there would be 200 or more (assuming a fleet of over 10,000, like some of the DS9 battles suggest)

Why do you think that? I believe the Federation tends to use many thousands of ships, and each ship tends to be specialized for a specific role, while threw 10 years of TNG and DS9, the only major Romulan Warship we saw was the D'deridex. I simply believe the Romulan builds as many D'deridex as it can.

That is basically what I said.  While the Federation makes specialized ships, the Romulans would make a D'deridex instead (so basically, while the Federation would make Akiras, Galaxies, Nebulas, and a bunch of other ships.  The Romulan Star Empire would make a D'deridex's.
 
Guess you can say that, considering we only saw the ship once, and we know absolutely nothing about it. Also, which size BoP are you talking about? They come from kids cheese burger to double quarter pounder.

Kirk's Bird of Prey (the 109 m, not the 55m, or the K'Vort)

It was classified as a scout even then.
 
You say so. We know absolutely nothing of the Valdore. It just seems to be that the intended for the Valdore to be the Romulan equivalent to the Sovereign as the D'deridex was the Romulan equivalent to the Galaxy. I believe we need more info the Valdore before we compare the ships more specifically.

Good point.

Some technobabble is probably needed to get the Romulans from being TOO powerful.

That is why I don't think they will use the Scimitar or Thelaron radiation    

[Tremok]

They hadn't seen a Suliban cloak to start with.  It was Daneils who told Archer how to see them.  They could track their engine Residue, though

 I see.  

No we don't.  But if we assume the TOS Bird of Prey is equally capable with its warp drive, it probably has a fusion reactor as a power source.  This means it would have a limited range.  Eventually it would have to turn back and re-feul.

 You can assume all you want, but I won't. I will wait for facts to be known.  

I have withdrawn my statement.  I forgot to think about heavy weapons.  Their primary weapon could have been what they fired, Atomics would be their heavy, possibly exactly like Spatial Torpedoes (No there is no reason to suggest a Spatial Torpedo is Atomic either, but there is no reason to suggest it isn't)

 Makes sense enough. But we don't know what heavy weapons that ship has until it uses them.  And no, the Spatial Torpedo is not atomic. In Minefield, the Enterprise was hit by a 25 kiloton or quarter kiloton mine. Either way, judging from the damage the mine did, and the type of damage we have seen the torpedo do, I think its highly unlikely that those torpedoes are atomic.    

Are you thinking of the Raptor, or the Battlecruiser from unexpected.  I think the Raptor was diabled when they found it, my memory is a little sketchy

 The Raptor was in the gas giant.    
 
They didn't fight much.  Not in Trouble with Tribbles and not in Day of the Dove.  I don't remmeber any other Klingon battle

 I was under the impression that the Enterprise had several skirmishish with them, and generally won.  

I am basing it on Tin Man.  You hear about 9 shots fired in about 5 seconds (3 of them on screen, fired by the main cannon)

 In TNG weapons tend to be fired in long, rapid vollies, with a moment for cool down, and the again fired in another long, rapid volley.

For example: there are times you will see the BigE fire 8 torpedoes off somewhere, wait for a few seconds, and another stream of torpedoes pour out. A phaser strike from the BigE tended to be several phrases going rapidly striking out, cool down for a few seconds, and another burst of phasers.  


If I find the discussion I saw about total numbers, I'll post a link.  Someone suggested that, based on the ratio of Galaxies, there would be 200 or more (assuming a fleet of over 10,000, like some of the DS9 battles suggest)

 Huh, I believe the biggest battle at the end of DS9 had no more than the 2000 ships. In Sacrifice of Angels, the Federation fleet consisted of 600~ ships (believe the real number is 589 or somesuch), and that required several big fleets. Very few people think the combined total of Federation ships is more than 8000. Most seem to content that right now its somewhere in the area of 7000-4000 ships.  

 

[La'ra]

Quote:
 I was under the impression that the Enterprise had several skirmishish with them, and generally won.  

The only time the Enterprise crossed swords with a D-7 in TOS was in Elaan of Troyius.  They defeated the Klingon ship with a photon torpedo volley that convinced the Klingons to leave the Enterprise alone.  Neither ship seemed to incur much damage.

Your analysis of the early Bird of Prey is interesting, however do keep in mind that in Balance of Terror Spock mentioned that the Earth-Romulan conflict was fought by ships roughly equal to each other, so any disparities are apparently eliminated by the time of the war.

I consider your analysis of the original, TOS Bird of Prey to be a bit skewed in the favor of the Romulans as well.  While the ship had a highly destructive weapon, it's shortcoming were rather extreme.  It was far slower than a Constitution-class ship, it had a highly limited fuel supply, and seemed a bit fragile when compared to it's opponent.  It seemed like a ship designed by people who knew their technology wasn't up to par with their neighbors and who tried to even the playing field by souping up the aspect of the vessel they considered the most important, hoping that the cloaking device combined with the giant weapon would compensate for it's notable flaws.    

[Tremok]

Quote:
 I was under the impression that the Enterprise had several skirmishish with them, and generally won.  

The only time the Enterprise crossed swords with a D-7 in TOS was in Elaan of Troyius.  They defeated the Klingon ship with a photon torpedo volley that convinced the Klingons to leave the Enterprise alone.  Neither ship seemed to incur much damage.

 I'll take your word for it.  

Your analysis of the early Bird of Prey is interesting, however do keep in mind that in Balance of Terror Spock mentioned that the Earth-Romulan conflict was fought by ships roughly equal to each other, so any disparities are apparently eliminated by the time of the war.

 According to the transcript, no such thing was said. All that was said was the war was fought roughly to a draw.  Already TOS has been proven unreliable as a source to predicate what things will happen in ENT. The only time will tell what the ships of the Romulan War are like.

Also, TOS was written pre-First Contact. It seems to me that the events of First Contact and the Temporal Time War is altering history in some ways. ENT might differ from the histroy written out by other Trek series before FC. Only time will tell.

Temoral fluctuations and things not happening like there supposed to has been part of the Enterprise plot since day one. This is why I don't loose sleep if some things don't match up perfect with ENT and other Trek series.

An interesting fact is the fact that Enterprise is the only Trek series to ever have a linear plot since day one.  

I consider your analysis of the original, TOS Bird of Prey to be a bit skewed in the favor of the Romulans as well.  While the ship had a highly destructive weapon, it's shortcoming were rather extreme.  It was far slower than a Constitution-class ship, it had a highly limited fuel supply, and seemed a bit fragile when compared to it's opponent.  It seemed like a ship designed by people who knew their technology wasn't up to par with their neighbors and who tried to even the playing field by souping up the aspect of the vessel they considered the most important, hoping that the cloaking device combined with the giant weapon would compensate for it's notable flaws.    

 I'll admit the Constitution probably was the better ship, but the BoP wasn't harmless. It did had the capabilites to destroy a Constitution, it simply had to be used properly.    

[La'ra]

Quote:
According to the transcript, no such thing was said. All that was said was the war was fought roughly to a draw.  Already TOS has been proven unreliable as a source to predicate what things will happen in ENT. The only time will tell what the ships of the Romulan War are like.

"The war was fought in primitive space vessels, using primitive atomic weapons allowing no quarter; no captives.  There were not even ship to ship visual commincations.  No Human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. " ---Commander Spock, 'Balance of Terror'.

This line, to me, implies close parity by the way it was phrased.  It's at least as substantive as using Lt. Reid's facial expressions to judge the power of Romulan weapons.

You are correct about Enterprise's consistency.  While I enjoy the show immensley, I do wish they paid more attention to the Original Series, which was and still is the best of Trek.

Quote:
 I'll admit the Constitution probably was the better ship, but the BoP wasn't harmless. It did had the capabilites to destroy a Constitution, it simply had to be used properly.    

Oh I agree, I was just expounding on the design philosiphy I percieved when looking closely at the vessel.  

[Tremok]

"

Quote:
The war was fought in primitive space vessels, using primitive atomic weapons allowing no quarter; no captives.  There were not even ship to ship visual commincations.  No Human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. " ---Commander Spock, 'Balance of Terror'.  

This line, to me, implies close parity by the way it was phrased.

 Imagine 300 hundred years in the future someone might say "300 years ago, primitve, nucleared power submarines, Alfa and Sea Wolf classes, fought each other in combat....". The statement would be true, both vessels would be nucleared powered, and both would be primitive in relation to them. However, the Sea Wolf has far greater capabilites than the Alfa. But then there might 12 Alfas to every Sea Wolf...

We will only know how Starfleet and Romulan vessels compared to each other in the Romulan War when we get there.  

It's at least as substantive as using Lt. Reid's facial expressions to judge the power of Romulan weapons.

 Lol, this is probably true.  

It simply seams to me, considering the Early BoPs advance technology and capabilites we have witness so far, that it is very likely to have considerably strong weapons.

But this is just guestmating. There is truth to the worlds that we simply won't know how strong the Early BoPs weapons are until we seem them used against a target in anger.  

You are correct about Enterprise's consistency. While I enjoy the show immensley, I do wish they paid more attention to the Original Series, which was and still is the best of Trek.

 Edit: Like I have stated before, I believe the inconsistencies of ENT are part of the plot. We'll see.

And I am too have the great gift of actually being able to enjoy the show. Those poor people... that come so close to blowing a vessel every Wednesday they dislike the show so much....  

[Tulmahk]

This from someone who doesn't know the difference between a D7 and a K'tinga?  LOL!

Yet more Tal Shiar propaganda...

Someone needs to check out ditl.org.  

[Tremok]

This from someone who doesn't know the difference between a D7 and a K'tinga?  LOL!

 Whoever claimed or accused someone of not knowing the difference between a D7 and K'tinga?  

Yet more Tal Shiar propaganda...

 Whatever you say?  

Someone needs to check out ditl.org.  

 Check out Daystrom for what?    

[La'ra]

Quote:
 Imagine 300 hundred years in the future someone might say "300 years ago, primitve, nucleared power submarines, Alfa and Sea Wolf classes, fought each other in combat....". The statement would be true, both vessels would be nucleared powered, and both would be primitive in relation to them. However, the Sea Wolf has far greater capabilites than the Alfa. But then there might 12 Alfas to every Sea Wolf...

We will only know how Starfleet and Romulan vessels compared to each other in the Romulan War when we get there.  

First of all, it wasn't 300 years into the future.  It was around 150.  Second, while your argument could be very true under most circumstances, we have to remember that it was Spock saying it...

Quote:
It simply seams to me, considering the Early BoPs advance technology and capabilites we have witness so far, that it is very likely to have considerably strong weapons.

The only 'advanced capabilities evident in the episode were cloaking technology and shields that repulsed the Enterprise's scans.  Their sensors might be fairly advanced, but much of the data they knew about the ship's situation could've been ascertained with a long-range telescope, so there's little evidence that their capabilities exceed Starfleet technology to any great degree.  Do note that the Enterprise often has difficulty scanning through shields, not just when they're Romulan shields.

Also note that the Romulans, known to be very aggressive and rather paranoid (which might explain their sensor-reflective shields), did not destroy the Enterprise and even continued to fire warning shots when they seemed to think Archer wasn't going to comply with their demands.  It's likely that, while they outnumbered the Starfleet ship, they were hesitant to truly engage simply because serious damage to at least one of their vessel's would've been impossible to avoid.

Quote:
But this is just guestmating. There is truth to the worlds that we simply won't know how strong the Early BoPs weapons are until we seem them used against a target in anger.

Quite true, I just think you need to remember this yourself...

Quote:
Edit: Like I have stated before, I believe the inconsistencies of ENT are part of the plot. We'll see.

And I am too have the great gift of actually being able to enjoy the show. Those poor people... that come so close to blowing a vessel every Wednesday they dislike the show so much....  
 

Honestly, Enterprise is my favorite Trek since TOS.  I feel most of the people who don't enjoy it take it far too seriously.    

[Tremok]

First of all, it wasn't 300 years into the future.  Yes. I know this. I was speaking metaphorically, I wasn't referring to when Spock had spoken.     It was around 150.  Second, while your argument could be very true under most circumstances, we have to remember that it was Spock saying it...  Hmm...  

Quote:
It simply seams to me, considering the Early BoPs advance technology and capabilites we have witness so far, that it is very likely to have considerably strong weapons.

The only 'advanced capabilities evident in the episode were cloaking technology and shields that repulsed the Enterprise's scans.  Their sensors might be fairly advanced, but much of the data they knew about the ship's situation could've been ascertained with a long-range telescope,  The Romulan sensors where good enough to whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function. I don't think they could of know that threw looking threw a telescope.    so there's little evidence that their capabilities exceed Starfleet technology to any great degree.  Do note that the Enterprise often has difficulty scanning through shields, not just when they're Romulan shields.

 The fact they even had shields shows the ship probably had superior technology than the NX.  

Also note that the Romulans, known to be very aggressive and rather paranoid (which might explain their sensor-reflective shields), did not destroy the Enterprise and even continued to fire warning shots when they seemed to think Archer wasn't going to comply with their demands.  It's likely that, while they outnumbered the Starfleet ship, they were hesitant to truly engage simply because serious damage to at least one of their vessel's would've been impossible to avoid.

 Or they writers didn't want the Romulans to blow the NX class to hell and end the show.

Also, Romulans are a thinking race. The Early BoPs where probably superior to the NX, but the Romulans wouldn't of know if that vessel was the strongest they had. The NX might of been just a scout ship, they might have something alot stronger or more advance. Or they might of have had huge fleets.

Romulans are chess players. It would go against there nature to start a war with an enemy they knew nothing about.

So, they don't outright destroy the NX-01 and possibly start a war, the intimidate them, giving them a display of power, make them shake with fear, scare them so bad that they never come near your space again.

Quote:
But this is just guestmating. There is truth to the worlds that we simply won't know how strong the Early BoPs weapons are until we seem them used against a target in anger.

Quite true, I just think you need to remember this yourself...

  Tremok writes on a piece of paper to remind himself of something he wrote in the first place.

I'll try, but no promises.    

Quote:
Edit: Like I have stated before, I believe the inconsistencies of ENT are part of the plot. We'll see.

And I am too have the great gift of actually being able to enjoy the show. Those poor people... that come so close to blowing a vessel every Wednesday they dislike the show so much....  
 

Honestly, Enterprise is my favorite Trek since TOS.  I feel most of the people who don't enjoy it take it far too seriously.    

 Enterprise is my second favorite after DS9.    

[Magnum357]

Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

[La'ra]

Quote:
The Romulan sensors where good enough to whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function. I don't think they could of know that threw looking threw a telescope.  

Maybe not telescopes, no, but what they did probably didn't require that much in the way of sensor tech.  Hell, they could've been monitoring the number of people with welding torches in the area of the mine.  When the torches went out, they figured they were done.

Far-fetched, I'll admit, but the point that there's very little evidence one way or the other still stands.

Quote:
The fact they even had shields shows the ship probably had superior technology than the NX.  

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Perhaps they went all out to get shields because they don't have the 'stop anything' hull plating of the NX-01.

Quote:
Also, Romulans are a thinking race. The Early BoPs where probably superior to the NX, but the Romulans wouldn't of know if that vessel was the strongest they had. The NX might of been just a scout ship, they might have something alot stronger or more advance. Or they might of have had huge fleets.

Romulans are chess players. It would go against there nature to start a war with an enemy they knew nothing about.

I know all about Romulans.  If you've never read any of Jaeih T'Radiak's fan fiction over on that board, I suggest you go take a look.  Admittedly she uses the more militaristic old-show Romulans rather than the mustache-twirling villians of TNG, but she does show that the really bad-ass Rommies she prefers are slowly becoming a minority.

Quote:
So, they don't outright destroy the NX-01 and possibly start a war, the intimidate them, giving them a display of power, make them shake with fear, scare them so bad that they never come near your space again.

Or they weren't sure how the fight would turn out and relied on bluff.

Quote:
 Enterprise is my second favorite after DS9.    

DS9 had very strong moments, though I thought the Dominion War was handled poorly, and the 1,000 ship battles seemed so not-Star Trek.  

[Tremok]

Quote:
The Romulan sensors where good enough to whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function. I don't think they could of know that threw looking threw a telescope.  

Maybe not telescopes, no, but what they did probably didn't require that much in the way of sensor tech.  Hell, they could've been monitoring the number of people with welding torches in the area of the mine.  When the torches went out, they figured they were done.

Far-fetched, I'll admit, but the point that there's very little evidence one way or the other still stands.

 Trip: We can't eject the hull section because of technobabble. It will require 4 hours of technobabble modifictions to able to.

Romulan at the end of the show: We know you have done this technobabble (goes into detail) so that you can now eject the hull plating and mine safely. Do so now and leave or we will blow you into whatever hell your species goto when you die.

Quote:
The fact they even had shields shows the ship probably had superior technology than the NX.  

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Perhaps they went all out to get shields because they don't have the 'stop anything' hull plating of the NX-01.

 Didn't stop old Romulan mines very well did? I know, I know, the hull wasn't polarized, but still..  

Quote:
Also, Romulans are a thinking race. The Early BoPs where probably superior to the NX, but the Romulans wouldn't of know if that vessel was the strongest they had. The NX might of been just a scout ship, they might have something alot stronger or more advance. Or they might of have had huge fleets.

Romulans are chess players. It would go against there nature to start a war with an enemy they knew nothing about.

I know all about Romulans.  If you've never read any of Jaeih T'Radiak's fan fiction over on that board, I suggest you go take a look.  Admittedly she uses the more militaristic old-show Romulans rather than the mustache-twirling villians of TNG, but she does show that the really bad-ass Rommies she prefers are slowly becoming a minority.

 I have read one or two of Jaeihs older stories, and will soon read some of her newer ones. If only if Sethan would get backed to writing... The bum...

I too have noticed the TOS Romulans seem different than the TNG ones. It makes sense to me, going along with Jaeihs "old schools are dying out as time goes one", the ENT Romulan Empire should be filled with more old school Romulans than either TOS or TNG.

Or perhaps the old school Romulans where well on there way in Enterprise, but the legendary Romulan Sethan made the old ways come back strong in the TOS era.

But lets not loose all hope now; the Romulans in Nemesis should themsevles to be strong in mnhei'sahe.  

Quote:
So, they don't outright destroy the NX-01 and possibly start a war, the intimidate them, giving them a display of power, make them shake with fear, scare them so bad that they never come near your space again.

Or they weren't sure how the fight would turn out and relied on bluff.

 Well, no use damaging or risking your ships unnecessarily. Why immediately engage it and risk starting a war when you can just growl and roar at it and send it running off with its tail between its legs?

Though, I think we will both agree that the Romulans where going to make that ship leave in short or that ship was going to be blown into pieces.  

Quote:
 Enterprise is my second favorite after DS9.    

DS9 had very strong moments, though I thought the Dominion War was handled poorly, and the 1,000 ship battles seemed so not-Star Trek.  

 Suit yourself. I liked it. And I thought those hundreds of ships space battles were the coolest sci-fi combat ever.    

[32nd Halcyon]

Aren't the Romulans behind much of the time altering with the Suliban?
They would be able to know the specs for the NX-1, wouldn't they?

Correct me if I'm wrong. I've only seen a handful of the shows due to my work schedule.

[Tremok]

 Many people seem to believe this, since the Romulans are so  Fvadting  devious.

But there is no canon to support this.    

[Alidar Jarok]

I have read one or two of Jaeihs older stories, and will soon read some of her newer ones. If only if Sethan would get backed to writing... The bum...

Yeah

I want to read "Survivng the Fire"

Anyway

In "The Enterprise Incident" it was said

"They want something, or they would have destroyed us by now."

In the Defector Picard said,

"Not yet, Mister Worf.  This is just a tap on the shoulder. Or we wouldn't be here talking about it"

In Tin Man they didn't even bother to hail (they just started firing)

So the Romulans really haven't changed that much.

I believe T'Pol said they were highly agressive.

I think they didn't attack for the same reason they didn't attack the Enterprise (D) in "The Neutral Zone"

They were judging the Enterprise

It was decided to just let them leave before they could start spying.

Later, they would regret this decision and attack on site.

The Federation used that to interperet the Romulans as a savage race.

Remember, that is just my opinion
 

[Tremok]

 

Quote:
Yeah

I want to read "Survivng the Fire"  

 Indeed, I wish I could find a link back to the old forums to the story. Or that Sethan would be so kind as to repost it in the new ones.  


 

Quote:
I believe T'Pol said they were highly agressive. (snip)  

 Indeed they are, but they AREN'T reckless either.  They calculate their moves.  
 
   

[Tremok]

Quote:
Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

 Because the TV shows and the movies are the only things that are canon?    

[Karnak]

I will never accept the idea that the BoP in TOS "Balance of Terror" episode was not warp capable.   The Rom travels too far too fast to justifly sub-light max. velocity. I tend to think Roms were stuck with Warp 3 max. engines until their treaty with the Klingons.  Travelling at Warp 3 (approx. 40c)  is enough to carve out a 50 to 100 Light year diameter empire.

[La'ra]

Quote:
 Because the TV shows and the movies are the only things that are canon?    

I was gonna say 'because it's fun'.  The yellow reads easier than the green, btw.  I'll get around to responding to your previous reply later this afternoon.  

[Tremok]

Quote:

Quote:
 Because the TV shows and the movies are the only things that are canon?    

I was gonna say 'because it's fun'.  The yellow reads easier than the green, btw.  I'll get around to responding to your previous reply later this afternoon.  

 
(checks date)

Come on La'ra! Don't let me down!    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

There needs to be some kind of official nod to a publicized version of the "facts." If the Star Trek Encyclopedia or some other more reliable source were sanctioned by Paramount Pictures as canon material, then these endless debates would be pointless (aka "the D'Deridex is clearly the superior ship than the Galaxy class and here's why..." or "no, your argument is incorrect as you have no canon sources to back up your argument..." blah, blah). It's just like the other thread where Tremok and myself had it off about why a Klingon D5 warship couldn't defeat the NX-01 in the first few shots.

Somebody at Paramount needs to set the record straight once and for all with an official publication from the very people who create the ships and the writers who create the fictional technology. It would be a good way to cap off all the DVD re-releases of the shows and movies.

We can start with an intro; "In the mid 1960s, Gene Roddenberry devised a new concept set in the science fiction genre..." From there, Paramount can address all the canon inconsistency issues from TOS to ENT. Give us total starship specs and comparisons, including an explanation of all the technology involved and so forth. Whatever they want, as long as the preface or somepart of the book(s) states that it is official canon material by Paramount, and not simply licensed material. When we have that, then the masses shall be appeased. But until then...

There is no way a Valdore could equal or better the firepower of a Sovereign class ship. Does the Quantum Torpedo mean anything to you guys? The Roms plasma torpedo, no matter how powerful, could never stand up to the rapid fire capability and reliablity of the quants, imho. But then again, we know so little of the Valdores to draw a proper conclusion other than the fact that the Scimitar destroyed one and easily disabled another. This coming from only one movie and just a few minutes of footage.

 

So there,  

CIV  

[Tremok]

Quote:

Quote:
Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

There needs to be some kind of official nod to a publicized version of the "facts." If the Star Trek Encyclopedia or some other more reliable source were sanctioned by Paramount Pictures as canon material, then these endless debates would be pointless (aka "the D'Deridex is clearly the superior ship than the Galaxy class and here's why..." or "no, your argument is incorrect as you have no canon sources to back up your argument..." blah, blah). It's just like the other thread where Tremok and myself had it off about why a Klingon D5 warship couldn't defeat the NX-01 in the first few shots.

 Well, they don't. And I enjoy these discussions.  

Somebody at Paramount needs to set the record straight once and for all with an official publication from the very people who create the ships and the writers who create the fictional technology. It would be a good way to cap off all the DVD re-releases of the shows and movies.

 You say so.  

We can start with an intro; "In the mid 1960s, Gene Roddenberry devised a new concept set in the science fiction genre..." From there, Paramount can address all the canon inconsistency issues from TOS to ENT. Give us total starship specs and comparisons, including an explanation of all the technology involved and so forth. Whatever they want, as long as the preface or somepart of the book(s) states that it is official canon material by Paramount, and not simply licensed material. When we have that, then the masses shall be appeased. But until then...

  I think the closes your gonna get is the unofficial word from the ship creators on the Alt.startrek.net message boards.  I had a few discussions with Rick Sternbach on Star Trek ships a ways back. Good guy.  

There is no way a Valdore could equal or better the firepower of a Sovereign class ship.

 Says who?  

Does the Quantum Torpedo mean anything to you guys? The Roms plasma torpedo, no matter how powerful, could never stand up to the rapid fire capability and reliablity of the quants, imho.

 Rapid fire capability? Reliablity? Bit of an arrogant assumption to make, considering we nothing absolutely nothing of Romulan torpedoes.  

But then again, we know so little of the Valdores to draw a proper conclusion

 Guess we better not make any claims that one ship is superior over the other because one torpedo one ship has is better than another ships torpedo that we know absolutely nothing about then huh?  

other than the fact that the Scimitar destroyed one and easily disabled another. This coming from only one movie and just a few minutes of footage.

 Bah, the Scimitar cleaned house against all the ships.  
 

[ChamadaIV]

I see you rather enjoy dissecting other people's words as they are written with line-by-line analysis summed up in just a few words/phrases/sentences. Annoying, but understandable (expects this line to be commented on as well).

If you thought that last part about the torpedoes and the Valdore vs Sovereign was a serious argument, then you are woefully mistaken. I was merely proving a point by what I said earlier just to show others how pointless and silly these Trek discussions are (I get caught in the trap myself time and time again, and I expect I will yet again in the future). They are fun and sometimes insightful, but ultimately pointless and usually changes nothing in the end. By taking what I said in that last paragraph seriously, you proved my point even moreso. So I thank you.  

Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink (tell me that in nanoseconds and it should have been that fast).  

 

CIV    

[Alidar Jarok]

Quote:
(expects this line to be commented on as well)

What makes you say that?

Quote:
Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink

Kill that ¢r@ppy Hu-Man Ship

Edit:  Cr@ppy turns into a link? (automatically gets [ email ] [ /email ] tags)

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:

Quote:
(expects this line to be commented on as well)

What makes you say that?

You'll have to excuse me, but as it turns out, Tremok's not the first one I've criticized for doing line-by-line commenting. It happens all the time, I've done it myself before. It's a good way to respond to a person's posts. It just annoys me sometimes, that's all. As my ex-girl used to say "Just deal with it." Well, I am.

Quote:
Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink

Quote:
Kill that ¢r@ppy Hu-Man Ship

Edit:  Cr@ppy turns into a link? (automatically gets [ email ] [ /email ] tags)

No kidding. Sounds
Post Preview: Whoa. Now there's an anomoly worth noting. Somebody should ask Dave Farrell what's up with that. Not that its a problem or anything.    

EDIT: Hey wait. It's nothing, just the @ symbol tricking the forum engine into thinking its an email address, ie <a href="mailto:username@domain.com">Cr@ppy">Cr@ppy</a> to me.

Post Preview: Whoa. Now there's an anomoly worth noting. Somebody should ask Dave Farrell what's up with that. Not that its a problem or anything.    

EDIT: Hey wait. It's nothing, just the @ symbol tricking the forum engine into thinking its an email address, ie <a href="mailto:username@domain.com

[ChamadaIV]

Sweet jesus...the BB Code in that last post went nuts. Oh well, you can decipher it for yourself. LOL

[Tremok]

I see you rather enjoy dissecting other people's words as they are written with line-by-line analysis summed up in just a few words/phrases/sentences.

 Absolutely.  

Annoying, but understandable (expects this line to be commented on as well).

 Don't worry, I won't waste my time.  

If you thought that last part about the torpedoes and the Valdore vs Sovereign was a serious argument, then you are woefully mistaken. I was merely proving a point by what I said earlier just to show others how pointless and silly these Trek discussions are (I get caught in the trap myself time and time again, and I expect I will yet again in the future).

 Call it whatever you want, sir. I find it throughly enjoyable.  

They are fun and sometimes insightful, but ultimately pointless and usually changes nothing in the end. By taking what I said in that last paragraph seriously, you proved my point even moreso. So I thank you.  

 Your welcome. I think. As for why I took the statement in question seriously, pick,

1. I find the said statement to be as reasonable as some other arguments that you have made,
2. Its very hard to pick up sarcasm from text (you usually have to lay it on very thick)
3. Both

 


Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink (tell me that in nanoseconds and it should have been that fast).  

 Life does indeed suck doesn't?

Truer words...    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
I see you rather enjoy dissecting other people's words as they are written with line-by-line analysis summed up in just a few words/phrases/sentences.

 Absolutely.  

How delightfully typical...my turn then.

Quote:
Annoying, but understandable (expects this line to be commented on as well).

 Don't worry, I won't waste my time.  

Maybe I should've said "I expect you won't even bother." OR "(Insert lame/arrogant comment here)"

Quote:
If you thought that last part about the torpedoes and the Valdore vs Sovereign was a serious argument, then you are woefully mistaken. I was merely proving a point by what I said earlier just to show others how pointless and silly these Trek discussions are (I get caught in the trap myself time and time again, and I expect I will yet again in the future).

 Call it whatever you want, sir. I find it throughly enjoyable.  

Well that is good. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. *sigh* I guess I'll join you then. I suppose I should tell you that your history on Rom ships isn't nearly as complete or historical as it should have been. As far as acuracy, it was good except ... your judgements about the BoP's capabilities (the one shown on ENT). They are derived from pure supposition and has yet to be determined by canon (because there is insufficient canon material on this BoP as of yet). To not let this be a one-sided ad hominem, my views on the D5's capabilities are also derived from prior Treknowledge and yes, supposition as well. Opinions we have, written facts we do not (as far as I can tell that is).

Quote:
They are fun and sometimes insightful, but ultimately pointless and usually changes nothing in the end. By taking what I said in that last paragraph seriously, you proved my point even moreso. So I thank you.  

 Your welcome. I think. As for why I took the statement in question seriously, pick,

1. I find the said statement to be as reasonable as some other arguments that you have made,
2. Its very hard to pick up sarcasm from text (you usually have to lay it on very thick)
3. Both

 

So that statement seemed valid to you when compared to what we have discussed before. Damn, too bad we couldn't chat in person. I'd say it so that you could catch the sarcasm. It is indeed wise to see the forest for the trees, but sometimes its necessary to see it for more than what it really is. You don't have to hear my words actually, but if you drew the clues from the context of my words, then you would understand.

Did you get that, or should I repeat it again?

Quote:
Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink (tell me that in nanoseconds and it should have been that fast).  

 Life does indeed suck doesn't?

Truer words...    

No, its not Life that sucks per se, only the people that try to make it suck for those who don't want it that way.      

[Tremok]

Maybe I should've said "I expect you won't even bother." OR "(Insert lame/arrogant comment here)"

 Perhaps you should of. *shrug*  

Quote:
If you thought that last part about the torpedoes and the Valdore vs Sovereign was a serious argument, then you are woefully mistaken. I was merely proving a point by what I said earlier just to show others how pointless and silly these Trek discussions are (I get caught in the trap myself time and time again, and I expect I will yet again in the future).

 Call it whatever you want, sir. I find it throughly enjoyable.  

Well that is good. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. *sigh* I guess I'll join you then.

 I am corrupting you eh?  

I suppose I should tell you that your history on Rom ships isn't nearly as complete or historical as it should have been.

 Thanks for telling me. So, what should I have done different.  

As far as acuracy, it was good except ... your judgements about the BoP's capabilities (the one shown on ENT). They are derived from pure supposition and has yet to be determined by canon (because there is insufficient canon material on this BoP as of yet).

 I've made my case for the Early BoP. Seeing who you don't actually try to disprove me, but simply say I am wrong, I take it as matter that you simply don't agree. Fair enough.  

To not let this be a one-sided ad hominem, my views on the D5's capabilities are also derived from prior Treknowledge and yes, supposition as well. Opinions we have, written facts we do not (as far as I can tell that is).

 Yes, we both made our cases for the D5.  

Quote:
They are fun and sometimes insightful, but ultimately pointless and usually changes nothing in the end. By taking what I said in that last paragraph seriously, you proved my point even moreso. So I thank you.  

 

So that statement seemed valid to you when compared to what we have discussed before.

 Might just be me. *shrug*  

Damn, too bad we couldn't chat in person. I'd say it so that you could catch the sarcasm.
It is indeed wise to see the forest for the trees, but sometimes its necessary to see it for more than what it really is. You don't have to hear my words actually, but if you drew the clues from the context of my words, then you would understand.

 One person makes a statement on the web being serious, another makes an exact same statement but is being sarcastic.

I find it too much of a headache to try to discern when people are being sarcastic or not. I just everything seriously.  


 

[Alidar Jarok]

Maybe you should have realized that when you said

(expects this line to be commented on as well)

That it would be jokingly commented on

I asked why do you think that, knowing full well that I would be commenting on it.

[jimmi7769]

Hey look everybody!!!   It's the Tremok and Chamada IV Show!!!!

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
Hey look everybody!!!   It's the Tremok and Chamada IV Show!!!!  

Yeah, it's almost like watching Bill Clinton and Bob Dole on 60 Minutes...  

Your input is noted Alidar.

As for what should've been done differently as far as the main topic of this thread, welll, nothing really needs to be done differently. More like adding to it. I see you pulled your ship pics from Ex Astria Scientia. An excellent site for all that is Trek. I only wish to know why you didn't further discuss things like the little known Rom scout ship or the Scorpion shuttle/fighter from Nemesis. If your source was indeed Bernd Schneider's site, then info on these ships were clearly there for you to touch upon. No big deal really. Just a thought.  

[La'ra]

Sorry Tremok.  I'm enjoying this exchange too much to interfere at the moment.  

[Tremok]

Quote:

As for what should've been done differently as far as the main topic of this thread, welll, nothing really needs to be done differently. More like adding to it. I see you pulled your ship pics from Ex Astria Scientia. An excellent site for all that is Trek. I only wish to know why you didn't further discuss things like the little known Rom scout ship or the Scorpion shuttle/fighter from Nemesis. If your source was indeed Bernd Schneider's site, then info on these ships were clearly there for you to touch upon. No big deal really. Just a thought.  

 I see. I always intended for this post to be a work in progress; that is, I will add more to it as time goes on.

In the next few days I will write up an analysis on the Enterprise/BoP TOS Battle, the combat history of the D'deridex (that we know of from the episodes, anyway), and my reports on the Science Ship, Scout Ship, Romulan Shuttle, and the Scorpion attackcraft.  I'll probably set down and do it this weekend.

RE: Ex Astria Scientia

It is a good site. I enjoy Bernds articles. He usually doesn't say much about the ships, but he does give you interesting tibits.

I use several of his pictures for two reasons:

1. They are decent pictures, and
2. They are nice and compact. I don't wish to huge pictures. (with the 30 timeout limit and all)    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
Sorry Tremok.  I'm enjoying this exchange too much to interfere at the moment.  

Everyone around here seems to get somewhat entertained when Tremok and myself have these exchanges...

maybe its time we ask Taldren for some kind of exclusive Trek debate forum or something...

nah, Dave would never go for that.    

[Tremok]

Quote:
Sorry Tremok.  I'm enjoying this exchange too much to interfere at the moment.  

  It seems that me and Mr. CIV have made nice (for now, anyway).

Anyway, this is somewhat off topic, but its my dern thread anyway.

I was surfing the web, and this is what I found.

 
 
 

What, does the Nova class have incredible growing abilities? One moment, its around 150 meters, next its more around 400 meters (the Negh'var is close to 700meters). Guess the FX people didn't want a ship 1/6th as small as the Negh'vars beating beating them up, so they made the Rhode Island just 1/2th as small.

Speaking of which, so much for the mighty Klingon Empire. Two Negh'vars getting chased off by a single Nova. Thats worse than *3 ~700 meter BoPs and a Galaxy scaring off 2 D'deridexes. How embarrassing

Of course, it simply could by they shrunk the Negh'vars (they would be I believe smaller than the Vor'chas if they did that).

*Remember now, back in that day 2 much smaller BoPs easily beat the Enterprise-D once. (forgot the episode, I'll look it up later).

Update: The episode was called Rascals, and the two BoPs where crewed by mighty, combat harden  Ferengi.  

[SuperDadOf5]

very well thought out.  

[Tremok]

 What was very well thought out?    

[Tremok]

 Recently I have beening writing enough about Romulans, their ships and their technologies to write a book. So, I have decided to consolildate everything here, for ease of discussions. So, alas, lets begin.

 
 

 The Early Bird-of-Prey

This is an attractive little ship that first appeared in the episode  Minefield. So what do we know about her?

She seems to be superior to any Klingon or Starfleet ship in the era.  She appears to be equipped with an advance cloaking device that the Enterprise probe couldn't detect. The ship is equipped with shields. The ship has weapon(s) on its bow, and they appear highly accurate and powerful.  The ship has superior sensors, knowing exactly what was happening on Enterprise to the greatest detail. The is also advance enough that Enterprise couldn't get scan her (you know your outclassed when that happens).

The real question is what type of warp drive/core does she have? Most everyone agrees that this Early Bird-of-Prey is warp capable.  Considering how advance this ship is, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume this ship has a more advance warp drive? Vulcans, the Romulans cousins, have ships that are flying around at warp 7 right now. Hmm, guess the only answer is wait and see.

Many think the Early Bird-of-Prey have similar warp nacelles, and think it suggests a technology trade. Personally, I don't see any resemblence, and think a technology trade highly unlikely.
 

 [  

 The Classic Bird-of-Prey

Ah, the classic itself. A stalker in the truest sense, it was outfitted with a weapon so powerful it could blast threw shields and then threw a mile of soild asteroid to utterly destory an outpost. It also was outfitted with an advance cloaking system. Its also outfitted with primitive nuclear weapons, has limited fuel, and has simple impulse power. While not as overtly superior as the Early Bird-of-Prey was to Starfleet vessels in its date, it still had its strengths and weakness compared to Federation vessels. It was a thinking mans ship, and in the hands of a wise man, it would be a formidable opponet.

The classic Bird-of-Prey had a length of 131 meters and a crew of 150.


 

 The Romulan D7

We saw three of these in  [ The Enterprise Incident  . In popular SFB/SFC lore, the Romulans traded their cloaking technology for these warp  powered ships in a brief alliance. However, this is nothing more than speculation. For all we know the Romulans might of stolen them. We don't know how many they had, when they got them, how long in use they where, or what influence they had on future Romulan design. In the ENT area, Romulan and Klingon ships are quite different. Foward ahead to the TNG area, and Romulan and Klingon ships are once again quite different.

The behind-the-scenes reason I have heard that the D-7 was in Romulans hands in they first place is because before the shoot they dropped and damaged the Bird-of-Prey.

The ship is 228 meters in length, which far as I know is the piece of canon info on the ship.


 

 The D'deridex Warbird

Ah, the mighty D'deridex herself. Many conisder this the most beautiful ship the Romulans have. I remember when I first saw her, in  The Defector. I was sitting at the edge of my seat; the Romulans where back? What would their ships look like? What would they do? They eerie Romulan music was playing, and then bam! The D'deridex decloaking and coming up on the Enterprise fast. It seem to stop just a few meters from the Enterprise, right in its face, easily dwarfing her. It left an impression.

Roughly, the D'deridex has a length of 1200m~, a beam of 800m~, and a height of around 300m~.I emphasize the world  roughly, for we do not know the actual numbers, just the general area.

The crew number is widely to be around 1500, but this is unconfirmed. Its top speed is around 9.6, but not quite as fast as the Galaxy.

The D'deridex is outfitted with some amazing technology, which is more or less equal to the Federations. It has a next generation cloaking device which is extremely hard to detect. Tachyon fields and anti-proton being the only ones know to work, the latter only occasionally. It also has the legendary AQS drive, which many consider one of the Romulans greatest achievements. We know little about this driver other than 1), its awesome, and 2), the D'deridex has one. It is also outfitted with sensors as good as the ones the Federation has (So says Geordi).

Every website you will visit has a different weapons load for the D'deridex. In all honesty, we have no idea what kind or how many weapons the D'deridex has. We have seen it show disruptors from various places, put Romulan captains seem to favor the huge, monstrous disruptor on the foward bow. Romulan Disruptors are quite interesting as they can shoot either blasts or beams, something we haven't seen anyone else be able to do. We are they advantages and disadvantages, in what situation would a captain use one over the other? We have no idea.  I also assume the D'deridex has a complement of both plasma and photon torpedoes. My reason for the plasma is because in DS9 it was mentioned that the Romulans were storing plasma torpedoes on the moon base, and the D'deridex seems to be the Romulans main warship. My sourse for photons was another DS9, when a Romulan commander said, "Ready photon torpedoes".

As for the D'deridex shields, we know nothing about them. As for its hull strengh and armor? I personally believe that Romulans are stupid, and they understand that the D'deridex will cloaking and decloaking alot, hence they will try to give the D'deridex as strong of a hull possible and as much armor as possible, incase an enemy catches it with its pants down. But this is just my opinion, and there is no canon to support it either way.

There seem to be two camps concerning D'deridex maneuverability. One camp thinks the Warbird is highly maneuverability, the other thinks it flies like a brick. All I can say is judge for yourself. As for me, well, it seems to me that the D'deridex moves well enough on TV.

Most people consider the D'deridex the superior warship over the Galaxy. If it is, its by no more than 10 or 20 percent. It is clear that they (people producing Star Trek) intended for the D'deridex to be the Romulan equivalent of the Galaxy class, and hence its not going to be much weaker or stronger.

How many D'deridex's do the Romulans have? We don't know, but likely hundreds. How did they fare in the Dominion War? We don't know, though they where strong enough to anchor the fleet on the final assault of Cardassia. How many did the Romulans loose in the Dominion War and how many do they have left? We don't know.  

Around the time of Nemesis, the offical website says that the D'deridex was being heavily revamped and upgraded with the least boom-bang stuff. It this has any truth to it, only the future will tell.


 

 The Valdore Warbird

Ah, my favorite ship. Sleek and striking.  In Nemesis, we learned nothing at all about these ships. I was very disappointed.

The Valdore has a length of 603.5meters, a width of 911meters, and a hight of about 100meters.

We see that she has several disruptor banks. As far as I recall we never saw her shoot any torpedoes, though I am sure she has a compliment of photons and plasmas. She has the next generation wraping shields that the Scimitar and Enterprise had.

Many people consider the Valdore to be a very fast ship. They based this own the fact that only the two Valdores where able to catch up to the Scimitar and Enterprise.

While I was watching the Valdores and Enterprise fly around, I simply felt the gist that they designed (producers of Trek) the Valdore to be the Romulan equivalent of the Sovereign, just as the D'deridex was the equivalent of the Galaxy.

In all honesty, its very hard to judge how powerful this ship is, since all three ships (the two Valdores and the Enterprise) where totally ineffective against the Scimitar.

Let me quote Graham Kennedy for a moment.

 

Quote:
Both were disabled in short order, indicating that the Valdores are not generally a match for the Sovereign class ship  

 
 

Quote:
The ships didn't fare too well against the Scimitar, certainly not standing up to anything like as much punishment as the Enterprise-E did. I've rated their strengths accordingly  

 

Quote:
Although the Scimitar greatly outgunned the Enterprise, the Starfleet ship did comfortably outperform the Romulan Valdore class warbirds in the battle. The ship did eventually run out of photons and exhaust its phasers, but it took a considerable degree of battle damage and remained at least partially operational.
 

   
Now, at first glance these quotes seem reasonable and convincing enough, but lets think about this alittle.

At the very beginning of the battle, Shinzon makes the Statement "I can destroy you at will". But remember, Shinzon needs to capture Picard to save his own life. He orders his crew to disable the Enterprise. Now, they have to be very precise and methodical about it, they have to keep the full power of his ship in check in lest he accidently kill over Picard.

But Shinzon has no such need or love of Romulans. He almost gagged when a pretty Romulan woman touched him. The first thing he did was targeted all his weapons on the first Valdore and blew its wing off. Then he targeted the other Valdore and blew a big hole in that one as well. I promise you, Shinzon wasn't pulling any punches or try to disable or capture anything concerning the Valdores. He wanted them dead and used the full power of the Scimitar to accomplish this end.

Does anyone really doubt that the Scimitar couldn't have killed the Enterprise as easily it did the Valdores?


 

 The Scimitar

Ah, my favorite subject. Go grab some munchies and get a cold one to drink, this is going to be long.

Ok, ready? Then lets begin.  

First off, lets discuss the capabilites and stats of the Scimitar.

The Scimitar is 890meters long, 1,350meters beam, and about 250meters in height.

The Scimitar is armed with 52 disruptor banks,  27 photon torpedo banks, and a thalaron radiation emitter mego-deathray thing that can wipe out a fleet of ships or an entire planets population.  The Scimitar can has a perfect, undetectable cloak. It can fire while cloaked. It can raise shields while cloaked. It has secondary as well as primary shields. Its fast enough to chase down an Enterprise. It has super maneuverability. It even has a holographic projection communication thing that is utter un-traceable.

The Enterprise and the two Valdores couldn't even dent the thing. The Valdores got ripped threw like tissue paper and the Enterprise was beaten around like a redheaded stepchild. Captian Picard even ordered Deanna to do what she was best at - running into things - and not even THAT stopped the Scimitar. The things a juggernaut.

And who built this ship? Most seem to think the Remans.

The Remans are people of Remus. Remus is the twin of planet of Romulus, in the same Solar System. Remus and Romulans are the twin planets the Vulcan Exiles settled on. The Romulan Empire grew from these two orginal planets. Remus is much like Luna of earth, it rotates in such a way that one side is always facing the sun and the other always in darkness. It seems that over time the population of Remus adapted to the darkness and harshness of the planet. Remus is the prime sourse of dilithium mining and heavy weapons construction.

The Remans themselves are considering and 'undesireable' caste in the Romulan Hierarchy. They are slaves forced into slave labor on the dark and dangerous world of Remus.

We also need to remind ourselves that Remans and Shinzon are not superbeings. The Remans themselves are essentially Romulan in blood that have adapted to the harsh climate of Reman. Shinzon himself is nothing more than a clone of Picard.

So, how could the Remans, under the absolute control of the iron fisted Romulans,  design, develop, engineer, and build a ship so powerful with such advance technology that it could take on any 3 ships in the Alpha/Beta quadrants and win easily? And lets remind oursevles are not old, wisen vets at ship design and technologies; the Scimitar, IIRC, would be the first ship they ever made.

I don't believe they did.  

The Romulans, on the other hand, DO have the experince, resources, and capability to build a ship such as the Scimitar. After all, they have been in the busisness of starships for 2000 years. And the also have been on the forefront of revolutionary technologies, such as the cloak, plasma weapons, and the AQS drive. A super ship with super weapons would fit the Romulans style perfectly.

I made my argument for why I believe the Romulans where responsible for the design of the Scimitar plenty in other post. I will not go on again in here, for the simple fact of the matter because it really doesn't matter.

Remus and the Remans are part of the Romulan Star Empire. They have been since Day One. All that happened in Nemesis is that they went from being the servants to the lords, they didn't gain indepence or anything. I could say that Ford builds better trucks than Chevies, but both are American motor companies are they not? Shinzon established himself as the Romulan Praetor of the  Romulan  Star Empire. The Scimitar was flying under a  Romulan flag.

The Scimitar was built by a  Romulan planet by a  Romulan population that was largely Romulan in blood. All that happened was a party of the planet overthrew the party that was in power (and repressing them) and made themselves masters. Then the Romulan military decided that party has gone to far and and came down on  them like a hand from God, and it seems that themselves are now in Power.

So, it no matter which planet or party design and built the Scimitar and its advance technology and weapons, its still a  Romulan ship. Debating about who built is like debating who built a truck, Ford or Chevy.

Will the current government build more Scimitars and put its advance technology and weapons on the rest of the fleet? Seems to me that the could if they wish. Only time will tell.  

[Whiplash]

I only read as far as the Early Bird, so my comments are only for that.

How can you say the ship appears to be superior? We did not see enough of it to make it possible to judge. I douldn't tell if the ships could kick butt on the Enterprise. We know that the Klingon early D7 and several other races can kick butt on the Enterprise. Heck, the Klingons had photons before the Federation did. As for the Rommies, we never even got a good look at the weapons, did we? Didn't the show say they were using some sort of disruptor? Am I missing some statement such as a crew member commenting on the awesome power of some weapon they used? They clearly did not appear to be that maneuverable to me.

Making a pure speculation, if we ignore the material from Balance of Terror, I might be willing to assume that since the Vulcans have been in space so long, and that Romulans are an offshoot of Vulcans from sometime after they got interstellar space flight, that the Roms are POSSIBLY somewhere near the Vulcans in technology. But that is a big assumption that isn't really well justified.

W.
 

[Tremok]

I only read as far as the Early Bird, so my comments are only for that.

How can you say the ship appears to be superior? We did not see enough of it to make it possible to judge. I douldn't tell if the ships could kick butt on the Enterprise. We know that the Klingon early D7 and several other races can kick butt on the Enterprise. Heck, the Klingons had photons before the Federation did. As for the Rommies, we never even got a good look at the weapons, did we? Didn't the show say they were using some sort of disruptor? Am I missing some statement such as a crew member commenting on the awesome power of some weapon they used? They clearly did not appear to be that maneuverable to me.

 Lets see..

*Enterprises anti-cloak sensor probe couldn't detect the Early BoPs cloak
*As for weapons fire, the Early BoP let loose a burst that that was just 20 meters from the starboard nacelle. I judge firepower from the look on Reeds face (the I-just-pissed-my-pants look)
*The Early BoP had sensors powerful enough that the Romulans knew the exact mechanical workings of the Enterprise  
*The Enterprise couldn't scan the Early BoP. There is a precedent in Star Trek if a ship can't scan another ship then that ship is outclass.

So lets see. The anti-cloak probe the Enterprise used to detect cloaked ships before couldn't deteat the Romulan ships cloak. The Enterprises couldn't scan the Early BoP at all while the Romulans sensors where good enough to know the Enterprise has rerouted whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function.

Starships in Star Trek generally looked there abilities. The sleek and modern lines of the Early BoP indicates is relatively powerful and capable ship.

This is what I base my judgement on. As far as maneuverability, its impossible to judge, since neither ships moved, but simply sat there and stared each other down.


Making a pure speculation, if we ignore the material from Balance of Terror, I might be willing to assume that since the Vulcans have been in space so long, and that Romulans are an offshoot of Vulcans from sometime after they got interstellar space flight, that the Roms are POSSIBLY somewhere near the Vulcans in technology. But that is a big assumption that isn't really well justified.

 Romulans are an ancient race, who have been flying among the stars for around 2000 years. The Romulans should had, more or less, whatever space technology the Vulcans had when they left the Vulcan in exile those 2000 years ago. How far each race has progress in relation to each other, we don't know. While I believe we know enough about the Early BoP to judge it superior to the NX-01, we do not know enough to compare of the Vulcan ships of the period.
 

[Alidar Jarok]

Although a big Romulan fan myself, I'll try to be a bit less biased

 Recently I have beening writing enough about Romulans, their ships and their technologies to write a book. So, I have decided to consolildate everything here, for ease of discussions. So, alas, lets begin.

 
 

 The Early Bird-of-Prey

This is an attractive little ship that first appeared in the episode  Minefield. So what do we know about her?

She seems to be superior to any Klingon or Starfleet ship in the era.  She appears to be equipped with an advance cloaking device that the Enterprise probe couldn't detect. The ship is equipped with shields. The ship has weapon(s) on its bow, and they appear highly accurate and powerful.  The ship has superior sensors, knowing exactly what was happening on Enterprise to the greatest detail. The is also advance enough that Enterprise couldn't get scan her (you know your outclassed when that happens).

The real question is what type of warp drive/core does she have? Most everyone agrees that this Early Bird-of-Prey is warp capable.  Considering how advance this ship is, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume this ship has a more advance warp drive? Vulcans, the Romulans cousins, have ships that are flying around at warp 7 right now. Hmm, guess the only answer is wait and see.

Many think the Early Bird-of-Prey have similar warp nacelles, and think it suggests a technology trade. Personally, I don't see any resemblence, and think a technology trade highly unlikely.

The only similarity is the diagonal necelles, I agree that there probably isn't a trade.

Here is what I will say.

The Early Bird of Prey clearly has a cloak powerful enough that Enterprise's primitive sensors could not pick it up.  It is liekly that even the Vulcans don't have sensors powerful enough, as they hadn't seen a Suliban cloak either.

This ship is probably equivalent to the Enterprise in speed, time will tell if it is faster or slower.  It does not have the M/AM reactor of the Enterprise, so it can run out of power and can't be used for deep space exploration, such as the mission of the enterprise.

Its sensors are much more advanced than "Earth's Finest."  They are equal to the sensor capibilities of the Vulcans, maybe better (the full capibilites of Vulcan sensors have not yet been seen, same with Romulans).  They also allow for precision targeting to "make their point"

Its weapons clearly consist of a FTL projectile.  I do not remember if it was called a disruptor (a weapon not even encountered from the Klingons yet).  I strongly beleive that it wasn't a disruptor, but an atomic projectile, similar to the Spatial Torpedoes of the Enterprise, only much faster (this is to preserve the Balance of Terror statement that the E/R War was fought with primitive Atomics)

It is superior to the Klingon Raptor, which is only a scout.  It is also probably better than the Enterprise (at least in the technical aspects.  Its weapon power is unknown).  It probably equal or worse than the D5.


 

 The Classic Bird-of-Prey

Ah, the classic itself. A stalker in the truest sense, it was outfitted with a weapon so powerful it could blast threw shields and then threw a mile of soild asteroid to utterly destory an outpost. It also was outfitted with an advance cloaking system. Its also outfitted with primitive nuclear weapons, has limited fuel, and has simple impulse power. While not as overtly superior as the Early Bird-of-Prey was to Starfleet vessels in its date, it still had its strengths and weakness compared to Federation vessels. It was a thinking mans ship, and in the hands of a wise man, it would be a formidable opponet.

The classic Bird-of-Prey had a length of 131 meters and a crew of 150.

The ship did have strengths and weaknesses.  Although it did have the raw firepower, Plasma torpedoes had a limited range and took tremndous power.  It could defeat a Constitution class easily, but could be destroyed easily.



 The Romulan D7

We saw three of these in  [ The Enterprise Incident  . In popular SFB/SFC lore, the Romulans traded their cloaking technology for these warp  powered ships in a brief alliance. However, this is nothing more than speculation. For all we know the Romulans might of stolen them. We don't know how many they had, when they got them, how long in use they where, or what influence they had on future Romulan design. In the ENT area, Romulan and Klingon ships are quite different. Foward ahead to the TNG area, and Romulan and Klingon ships are once again quite different.

The behind-the-scenes reason I have heard that the D-7 was in Romulans hands in they first place is because before the shoot they dropped and damaged the Bird-of-Prey.

The ship is 228 meters in length, which far as I know is the piece of canon info on the ship.

Actually, the reason for use is that Paramount had spent alot of money making these ships.  They wanted as many opportunities as possible to use it.

This ship is larger than the Bird of Prey and more durable.  When equipped with a cloak it became more effective than the Klingon's version.  The best explination on the reason of their use is this:

The test of the Bird of Prey was a failure.  Although the ship showed promise, it didn't do what it was supposed to do.  Later, the captains of these ships were outsmarted and failed to destroy one ship when they outnumbered it 12-1.  It was decided to use the Klingon vessel.   These ships were used as an elite force, but the bulk of the navy is the still the Bird of Prey



 The D'deridex Warbird

Ah, the mighty D'deridex herself. Many conisder this the most beautiful ship the Romulans have. I remember when I first saw her, in  The Defector. I was sitting at the edge of my seat; the Romulans where back? What would their ships look like? What would they do? They eerie Romulan music was playing, and then bam! The D'deridex decloaking and coming up on the Enterprise fast. It seem to stop just a few meters from the Enterprise, right in its face, easily dwarfing her. It left an impression.

Roughly, the D'deridex has a length of 1200m~, a beam of 800m~, and a height of around 300m~.I emphasize the world  roughly, for we do not know the actual numbers, just the general area.

The crew number is widely to be around 1500, but this is unconfirmed. Its top speed is around 9.6, but not quite as fast as the Galaxy.

The D'deridex is outfitted with some amazing technology, which is more or less equal to the Federations. It has a next generation cloaking device which is extremely hard to detect. Tachyon fields and anti-proton being the only ones know to work, the latter only occasionally. It also has the legendary AQS drive, which many consider one of the Romulans greatest achievements. We know little about this driver other than 1), its awesome, and 2), the D'deridex has one. It is also outfitted with sensors as good as the ones the Federation has (So says Geordi).

Every website you will visit has a different weapons load for the D'deridex. In all honesty, we have no idea what kind or how many weapons the D'deridex has. We have seen it show disruptors from various places, put Romulan captains seem to favor the huge, monstrous disruptor on the foward bow. Romulan Disruptors are quite interesting as they can shoot either blasts or beams, something we haven't seen anyone else be able to do. We are they advantages and disadvantages, in what situation would a captain use one over the other? We have no idea.  I also assume the D'deridex has a complement of both plasma and photon torpedoes. My reason for the plasma is because in DS9 it was mentioned that the Romulans were storing plasma torpedoes on the moon base, and the D'deridex seems to be the Romulans main warship. My sourse for photons was another DS9, when a Romulan commander said, "Ready photon torpedoes".

As for the D'deridex shields, we know nothing about them. As for its hull strengh and armor? I personally believe that Romulans are stupid, and they understand that the D'deridex will cloaking and decloaking alot, hence they will try to give the D'deridex as strong of a hull possible and as much armor as possible, incase an enemy catches it with its pants down. But this is just my opinion, and there is no canon to support it either way.

There seem to be two camps concerning D'deridex maneuverability. One camp thinks the Warbird is highly maneuverability, the other thinks it flies like a brick. All I can say is judge for yourself. As for me, well, it seems to me that the D'deridex moves well enough on TV.

Most people consider the D'deridex the superior warship over the Galaxy. If it is, its by no more than 10 or 20 percent. It is clear that they (people producing Star Trek) intended for the D'deridex to be the Romulan equivalent of the Galaxy class, and hence its not going to be much weaker or stronger.

How many D'deridex's do the Romulans have? We don't know, but likely hundreds. How did they fare in the Dominion War? We don't know, though they where strong enough to anchor the fleet on the final assault of Cardassia. How many did the Romulans loose in the Dominion War and how many do they have left? We don't know.  

Around the time of Nemesis, the offical website says that the D'deridex was being heavily revamped and upgraded with the least boom-bang stuff. It this has any truth to it, only the future will tell.

The D'deridex is also my favorite Warbird.  The Defector is one of my favorite episodes.  Here you get 2 really cool Warbird uncloaking scenes (the first is the ship chasing Jarok's Scout), my favorite is the one near the end where they appear out of knowhere

I almost jumped out of my skin when I saw them appear, caught me completely by suprise

Anyway, I'll say my analisis of the D'deridex.

Armed with many Disruptors (IMO, anything it fires that is green is a disruptor.  The "phaser" in "Contagion" was a disruptor)
It has one main cannon which fires a shot that is more powerful then a Phaser, but weaker than a Photon Torpedo.  It has considerably faster rate of fire than Photons, but much less range.  It is also equipped with Photon Torpedoes (Tech manual) which aren't as powerful as Fed Photons (Being fair to the less fortunate races) and Plasma Torpedoes (DS9) that are useful for attacking bases and the occasional ship.

The ship appears to be just as manuverable as the Galaxy (which also has an underated manuverability).  It is less manuverable than the Sovereign, though.

DITL.org had this theory that, since this ship is the only major ship seen, it has to be weaker.  I strongly disagree with this, especially since he has no canon facts to back this.

First off, whenever the Federation encounters the Romulans, the Romulans always encounter a Galaxy.  Too be fair, the Romulans send more ships, but that's because they are better prepared.  In the Dominion Wars, although you see a lot of D'deridex's, you will probably see more Galaxy classes.  By the middle of TNG, Data gives a ratio of cadets that make an assignment on a Galaxy class.  This ratio strongly suggests a minimum of 25 Galaxys before war time production (the Romulans are almost always at war time levels)  Finally, I've always beleived that, while the Federation will build a Galaxy class and 2 Nebula classes, the Romulans will build 2 D'deridex's instead.



Scout Ship

This ship is about the size of a Klingon Bird of Prey, and holds the same scouting duties.




 The Valdore Warbird

Ah, my favorite ship. Sleek and striking.  In Nemesis, we learned nothing at all about these ships. I was very disappointed.

The Valdore has a length of 603.5meters, a width of 911meters, and a hight of about 100meters.

We see that she has several disruptor banks. As far as I recall we never saw her shoot any torpedoes, though I am sure she has a compliment of photons and plasmas. She has the next generation wraping shields that the Scimitar and Enterprise had.

Many people consider the Valdore to be a very fast ship. They based this own the fact that only the two Valdores where able to catch up to the Scimitar and Enterprise.

While I was watching the Valdores and Enterprise fly around, I simply felt the gist that they designed (producers of Trek) the Valdore to be the Romulan equivalent of the Sovereign, just as the D'deridex was the equivalent of the Galaxy.

In all honesty, its very hard to judge how powerful this ship is, since all three ships (the two Valdores and the Enterprise) where totally ineffective against the Scimitar.

Let me quote Graham Kennedy for a moment.

 

Quote:
Both were disabled in short order, indicating that the Valdores are not generally a match for the Sovereign class ship  

 
 

Quote:
The ships didn't fare too well against the Scimitar, certainly not standing up to anything like as much punishment as the Enterprise-E did. I've rated their strengths accordingly

 

Quote:
Although the Scimitar greatly outgunned the Enterprise, the Starfleet ship did comfortably outperform the Romulan Valdore class warbirds in the battle. The ship did eventually run out of photons and exhaust its phasers, but it took a considerable degree of battle damage and remained at least partially operational.
 

   
Now, at first glance these quotes seem reasonable and convincing enough, but lets think about this alittle.

At the very beginning of the battle, Shinzon makes the Statement "I can destroy you at will". But remember, Shinzon needs to capture Picard to save his own life. He orders his crew to disable the Enterprise. Now, they have to be very precise and methodical about it, they have to keep the full power of his ship in check in lest he accidently kill over Picard.

But Shinzon has no such need or love of Romulans. He almost gagged when a pretty Romulan woman touched him. The first thing he did was targeted all his weapons on the first Valdore and blew its wing off. Then he targeted the other Valdore and blew a big hole in that one as well. I promise you, Shinzon wasn't pulling any punches or try to disable or capture anything concerning the Valdores. He wanted them dead and used the full power of the Scimitar to accomplish this end.

Does anyone really doubt that the Scimitar couldn't have killed the Enterprise as easily it did the Valdores?

I agree completely.  I think Valdore is basically an equal to the Sovereign.  It doesn't really have any improvements in weapons power over a D'deridex, as a D'deridex has similar firepower to the Sovereign.  What it does match is the speed and manuverbility.  I think the Sovereign is a bit stronger, but doesn't have a cloak



 The Scimitar

Ah, my favorite subject. Go grab some munchies and get a cold one to drink, this is going to be long.

Ok, ready? Then lets begin.  

First off, lets discuss the capabilites and stats of the Scimitar.

The Scimitar is 890meters long, 1,350meters beam, and about 250meters in height.

The Scimitar is armed with 52 disruptor banks,  27 photon torpedo banks, and a thalaron radiation emitter mego-deathray thing that can wipe out a fleet of ships or an entire planets population.  The Scimitar can has a perfect, undetectable cloak. It can fire while cloaked. It can raise shields while cloaked. It has secondary as well as primary shields. Its fast enough to chase down an Enterprise. It has super maneuverability. It even has a holographic projection communication thing that is utter un-traceable.

The Enterprise and the two Valdores couldn't even dent the thing. The Valdores got ripped threw like tissue paper and the Enterprise was beaten around like a redheaded stepchild. Captian Picard even ordered Deanna to do what she was best at - running into things - and not even THAT stopped the Scimitar. The things a juggernaut.

And who built this ship? Most seem to think the Remans.

The Remans are people of Remus. Remus is the twin of planet of Romulus, in the same Solar System. Remus and Romulans are the twin planets the Vulcan Exiles settled on. The Romulan Empire grew from these two orginal planets. Remus is much like Luna of earth, it rotates in such a way that one side is always facing the sun and the other always in darkness. It seems that over time the population of Remus adapted to the darkness and harshness of the planet. Remus is the prime sourse of dilithium mining and heavy weapons construction.

The Remans themselves are considering and 'undesireable' caste in the Romulan Hierarchy. They are slaves forced into slave labor on the dark and dangerous world of Remus.

We also need to remind ourselves that Remans and Shinzon are not superbeings. The Remans themselves are essentially Romulan in blood that have adapted to the harsh climate of Reman. Shinzon himself is nothing more than a clone of Picard.

So, how could the Remans, under the absolute control of the iron fisted Romulans,  design, develop, engineer, and build a ship so powerful with such advance technology that it could take on any 3 ships in the Alpha/Beta quadrants and win easily? And lets remind oursevles are not old, wisen vets at ship design and technologies; the Scimitar, IIRC, would be the first ship they ever made.

I don't believe they did.  

The Romulans, on the other hand, DO have the experince, resources, and capability to build a ship such as the Scimitar. After all, they have been in the busisness of starships for 2000 years. And the also have been on the forefront of revolutionary technologies, such as the cloak, plasma weapons, and the AQS drive. A super ship with super weapons would fit the Romulans style perfectly.

I made my argument for why I believe the Romulans where responsible for the design of the Scimitar plenty in other post. I will not go on again in here, for the simple fact of the matter because it really doesn't matter.

Remus and the Remans are part of the Romulan Star Empire. They have been since Day One. All that happened in Nemesis is that they went from being the servants to the lords, they didn't gain indepence or anything. I could say that Ford builds better trucks than Chevies, but both are American motor companies are they not? Shinzon established himself as the Romulan Praetor of the  Romulan  Star Empire. The Scimitar was flying under a  Romulan flag.

The Scimitar was built by a  Romulan planet by a  Romulan population that was largely Romulan in blood. All that happened was a party of the planet overthrew the party that was in power (and repressing them) and made themselves masters. Then the Romulan military decided that party has gone to far and and came down on  them like a hand from God, and it seems that themselves are now in Power.

So, it no matter which planet or party design and built the Scimitar and its advance technology and weapons, its still a  Romulan ship. Debating about who built is like debating who built a truck, Ford or Chevy.

Will the current government build more Scimitars and put its advance technology and weapons on the rest of the fleet? Seems to me that the could if they wish. Only time will tell.

All I'll say is that I think that the Scimitar will not go into mass production.  It is a monstrosity that only the Dominion would have the resources to use.  The Romulans will probably not use Thalaron radiation weaponry.  

The new cloak will undoubtably be used in all Romulan ships.  Even if they signed a treaty to prevent them from using the new coak, why would they follow it?

In "The Neutral Zone", when asked why they entered the Neutral Zone, their response was "Even to ask such a question implies that we need permission; we do not.
"

Eventually, this new cloak will be rendered obsolete and the search for a better claok will continue.        

[supe_k]

Tremok,
Not to be too critical in your analysis, but as I recall Earth's moon has the same rotation and revolutionary period.  This means that only one face of the moon will face the Earth, not the Sun.  

[Tremok]

Quote:
Tremok,
Not to be too critical in your analysis, but as I recall Earth's moon has the same rotation and revolutionary period.  This means that only one face of the moon will face the Earth, not the Sun.  

Lol, you got me there. I never meant the moon always faces the sun, but always faces the earth. For the same reasons I believe, but I could be incorrect.  

[Tremok]

Although a big Romulan fan myself, I'll try to be a bit less biased

Ouch! Scathing. Lets see if you can prove me wrong. I do love a good debate.

The only similarity is the diagonal necelles, I agree that there probably isn't a trade.

Here is what I will say.

The Early Bird of Prey clearly has a cloak powerful enough that Enterprise's primitive sensors could not pick it up.  It is liekly that even the Vulcans don't have sensors powerful enough, as they hadn't seen a Suliban cloak either.

 Vulcan sensors couldn't break a Suliban cloak? Interesting.  

This ship is probably equivalent to the Enterprise in speed, time will tell if it is faster or slower.

 We have absolutely no idea how fast the Early BoP is.  

 It does not have the M/AM reactor of the Enterprise, so it can run out of power and can't be used for deep space exploration, such as the mission of the enterprise.

 Most seem to think Minefield proves that Romulan BoPs can travel faster than light. As for what method they Early BoP can use, we have absolutely no idea.  

Its sensors are much more advanced than "Earth's Finest."  They are equal to the sensor capibilities of the Vulcans, maybe better (the full capibilites of Vulcan sensors have not yet been seen, same with Romulans).  They also allow for precision targeting to "make their point"

 I agree, Romulan sensors proved themselves to be extremely capable.  

Its weapons clearly consist of a FTL projectile.

 It looked like a energy weapon to me. What makes you think otherwise?  

I do not remember if it was called a disruptor (a weapon not even encountered from the Klingons yet).

 Don't get too nit picky on me now. You knew when I said disruptor I meant an energy weapon that furst in burst.    

I strongly beleive that it wasn't a disruptor, but an atomic projectile, similar to the Spatial Torpedoes of the Enterprise, only much faster (this is to preserve the Balance of Terror statement that the E/R War was fought with primitive Atomics)

It is superior to the Klingon Raptor, which is only a scout.  It is also probably better than the Enterprise (at least in the technical aspects.  Its weapon power is unknown).  It probably equal or worse than the D5.

 If it is superior to the Raptor, than it IS superior to the Enterprise. Remember now, the Raptor had photon torpedoes and a hull that was three times as strong as the Enterprises.

But, we know very little of the Early BoP, not enough to compare it to the higher end Klingon ships just yet. But we do I believe know enough about it to consider it superior to the Enterprise.  

 

The ship did have strengths and weaknesses.  Although it did have the raw firepower, Plasma torpedoes had a limited range and took tremndous power.  It could defeat a Constitution class easily, but could be destroyed easily.

 I personally judge it a match that the better Captain would win.  



 The Romulan D7


Actually, the reason for use is that Paramount had spent alot of money making these ships.  They wanted as many opportunities as possible to use it.

 This is true. TOS had a very limited budget.  

This ship is larger than the Bird of Prey and more durable.

 You say so. Just seems to me that Kirk manage to beat them around pretty easily.  


 The best explination on the reason of their use is this:The test of the Bird of Prey was a failure.

 This is true.  

Although the ship showed promise, it didn't do what it was supposed to do.  Later, the captains of these ships were outsmarted and failed to destroy one ship when they outnumbered it 12-1.  It was decided to use the Klingon vessel.   These ships were used as an elite force, but the bulk of the navy is the still the Bird of Prey

 I suppose so; they never did, as far as I know, give us a canon reason why the Romulans  

The D'deridex is also my favorite Warbird.  The Defector is one of my favorite episodes.  Here you get 2 really cool Warbird uncloaking scenes (the first is the ship chasing Jarok's Scout), my favorite is the one near the end where they appear out of knowhere

 I remember the scenes very well. The cool Romulan theme music as well as the D'deridex speeding up to the Enterprise and getting right in its face had my thinking "Boy, that Warbird is pissed"  

I almost jumped out of my skin when I saw them appear, caught me completely by suprise

Anyway, I'll say my analisis of the D'deridex.

Armed with many Disruptors (IMO, anything it fires that is green is a disruptor.  The "phaser" in "Contagion" was a disruptor)

 Agreed. Burst or beam, it still a Romulan Disruptor.  

It has one main cannon which fires a shot that is more powerful then a Phaser, but weaker than a Photon Torpedo.  It has considerably faster rate of fire than Photons, but much less range.  It is also equipped with Photon Torpedoes (Tech manual) which aren't as powerful as Fed Photons (Being fair to the less fortunate races) and Plasma Torpedoes (DS9) that are useful for attacking bases and the occasional ship.

 If you say so. Personally, I have see any canon sources concerning ranges, cool down ratess,  or damage vaules concerning D'deridex weapons, so I didn't type anything about them.

I just know in  Tin Man, a D'deridex opened up on the Enterprise and "Shields down to 17 percent!"  

The ship appears to be just as manuverable as the Galaxy (which also has an underated manuverability).  It is less manuverable than the Sovereign, though.

 Guess you can say that if your using Nemesis as your source.  

DITL.org had this theory that, since this ship is the only major ship seen, it has to be weaker.  I strongly disagree with this, especially since he has no canon facts to back this.

 Take anything you find at DILT.org with lots and lots of salt.  

First off, whenever the Federation encounters the Romulans, the Romulans always encounter a Galaxy.  Too be fair, the Romulans send more ships, but that's because they are better prepared.  In the Dominion Wars, although you see a lot of D'deridex's, you will probably see more Galaxy classes.

 We never see any more than 4 or 5 Galaxies in a fleet. Though, we sometimes see dozens if not more of D'deridexes when the Romulans send there  fleets to battle.    

By the middle of TNG, Data gives a ratio of cadets that make an assignment on a Galaxy class.  This ratio strongly suggests a minimum of 25 Galaxys before war time production

 I believe in the area of 25-75 myself.  

(the Romulans are almost always at war time levels)  Finally, I've always beleived that, while the Federation will build a Galaxy class and 2 Nebula classes, the Romulans will build 2 D'deridex's instead.

 Why do you think that? I believe the Federation tends to use many thousands of ships, and each ship tends to be specialized for a specific role, while threw 10 years of TNG and DS9, the only major Romulan Warship we saw was the D'deridex. I simply believe the Romulan builds as many D'deridex as it can.  



Scout Ship

This ship is about the size of a Klingon Bird of Prey, and holds the same scouting duties.

 Guess you can say that, considering we only saw the ship once, and we know absolutely nothing about it. Also, which size BoP are you talking about? They come from kids cheese burger to double quarter pounder.  

I agree completely.  I think Valdore is basically an equal to the Sovereign.  It doesn't really have any improvements in weapons power over a D'deridex, as a D'deridex has similar firepower to the Sovereign.  What it does match is the speed and manuverbility.  I think the Sovereign is a bit stronger, but doesn't have a cloak

 You say so. We know absolutely nothing of the Valdore. It just seems to be that the intended for the Valdore to be the Romulan equivalent to the Sovereign as the D'deridex was the Romulan equivalent  to the Galaxy. I believe we need more info the Valdore before we compare the ships more specifically.


All I'll say is that I think that the Scimitar will not go into mass production.  It is a monstrosity that only the Dominion would have the resources to use.

 The Romulans have enough resources to build hundreds of D'deridexes, which all in all, are about the same size. I am sure they can build a few. No more than 12, but maybe 2 or 3.  

The Romulans will probably not use Thalaron radiation weaponry.  

 You say so.  

The new cloak will undoubtably be used in all Romulan ships.  Even if they signed a treaty to prevent them from using the new coak, why would they follow it?

 What if all the new, advance technologies of the Scimitar relied on a Thalaron power source?

This is the best counterpoint to my writings so far: If the already very powerful D'deridex and Valdores were outfitted with the Scimitars advance technology, the Romulans military power could not be counter, and they would run rampant all over the place. Some technobabble is probably needed to get the Romulans from being TOO powerful.
 

In "The Neutral Zone", when asked why they entered the Neutral Zone, their response was "Even to ask such a question implies that we need permission; we do not.
"

Eventually, this new cloak will be rendered obsolete and the search for a better claok will continue.        

 Such is the evolution of weapons. In TOS, Romulan technoloy didn't seem as advance as the Federations. In TNG/DS9, Romulan technology is more or less equal to the Federations. In Nemesis, Romulan technology seems to be pulling ahead of the Federations by a considerable marginal.

Just an interesting evolution of Romulan technology.    

[DavT]

This thread needs to be posted when I have more time, not right before two exams!

*tackles few points in no particular order*

ENT BoP tactical systems:
Probably not atomic weapons or FTL projectiles. Why not atomic? Beats me, but they really looked like energy pulses, rather than anything physical. And personally, I would not waste nuclear ammo on multiple warning shots. Also, most races employs energy weapons for practical purposes. You can't just rely on explosive weapons 100% of the time, they have limitations, especially nukes. Why not FTL? Because we saw them, that's why. FTL weapons would not have been seen because of their speed. They are also very technologically demanding, you probably don't want to have them as far back as ENT, too advanced.

Also, we've seen Romulan BoPs use something other than plasma bowling balls in TOS. In "The Deadly Years", the BoPs swarming the Ent-nil were firing little globes of energy that were definately not plasma torpedoes. I think they could have been energy weapons. This would establish a clear lineage for Romulan (pulsed) energy weapon, from ENT to TOS to TNG to DS9.  

As for shields, until we see some, I really don't think the Romulans have any shields back then. It would overly tip the strategic balance in their favour, and make Earth victory in the Earth/Romulan War questionable.

Who built the Scimitar:
Despite Tremok's very good points, I still argue that the Scimitar was a Reman creation. Why? Because our Picard wannabe said so. That should be enough right there. We can try to come up with different ways to interpret and twist Shinzon's words, but if we stick right to it, he said the Remans built the Scimitars. He also said the Remans had assemble a significant force and came to Romulus in force. Evidentally, the Reman does have some resources available to them, more than people think they do. The Remans do after all represent a majority of the population on Remus, and the Romulans can't hope to watch over an entire planet without missing something every now and then, which adds up. Even if there aren't as many Remans as Romulans in the Empire, there must still be hundred of millions on Remus. Plus, during the Dominion War, the Romulans relaxed their grip on the Remans in order to use them as a combat force. The Scimitar could very well have been conceived during that troubled time, when the Romulans had something more pressing to worry about then their own oppressed minority secretly building a planet-killer. Like them genicidal Dominions.

Also, Remus isn't just a dillithium mine, it also has heavy weapons factory. Assuming those factories are also run by the Remans (quite probable, they built the factory near a source of labour, they have no reason to be there otherwise), that means the Reman population does comprise of skilled workers and technicians to some degree. And the Scimitar is really just a big heavy weapon, no more, no less. The Scimitar's design really contrasted away from what we've seen of Romulan designs, which is elegant at least in some way. Instead, the Scimitar is very crude, dark, utilitarian, and more like something a hard people would build. And remember, there was only one Scimitar, which should not be too hard to manage for a people capable of rising up and landing on Romulus in force. It make sense that if the Remans only had so much resources, they would make something that cannot be easily overwhelmed by the numerically superior Romulans, plus it having a nasty little Easter egg inside.

I still believe that with the sheer hatred between Romulans and Remans, the Romulans would never put something as powerful as the Scimitar under Reman control. It's quite literally, suicidal.

Lastly, there is no reason to include the Remans in the coup on Romulus at all, unless they had something unique to offer. If the Scimitar was a Romulan ship, they could have manned it with Romulans from the start and done Earth away with like they were promised, instead of the Romulan military officers being forced to yield to Shinzon's own priorities. It doesn't make any sense for the Romulans to shoot their own operation in the leg by placing someone like Shinzon in control of the single most powerful weapon the Empire ever produced. That's why I say that the Scimitar is a Reman creation.  

[Tremok]

This thread needs to be posted when I have more time, not right before two exams!

*tackles few points in no particular order*

ENT BoP tactical systems:
Probably not atomic weapons or FTL projectiles. Why not atomic? Beats me, but they really looked like energy pulses, rather than anything physical. And personally, I would not waste nuclear ammo on multiple warning shots. Also, most races employs energy weapons for practical purposes. You can't just rely on explosive weapons 100% of the time, they have limitations, especially nukes. Why not FTL? Because we saw them, that's why. FTL weapons would not have been seen because of their speed. They are also very technologically demanding, you probably don't want to have them as far back as ENT, too advanced.

 I believe it is said by Reed, "There shields are deflecting our sensor scans"  

Also, we've seen Romulan BoPs use something other than plasma bowling balls in TOS. In "The Deadly Years", the BoPs swarming the Ent-nil were firing little globes of energy that were definately not plasma torpedoes. I think they could have been energy weapons. This would establish a clear lineage for Romulan (pulsed) energy weapon, from ENT to TOS to TNG to DS9.  

As for shields, until we see some, I really don't think the Romulans have any shields back then. It would overly tip the strategic balance in their favour, and make Earth victory in the Earth/Romulan War questionable.

Who built the Scimitar:
Despite Tremok's very good points, I still argue that the Scimitar was a Reman creation. Why? Because our Picard wannabe said so. That should be enough right there. We can try to come up with different ways to interpret and twist Shinzon's words, but if we stick right to it, he said the Remans built the Scimitars.

 I really don't care what faction of the Empire was responsible for the Scimitar anymore, since it doesn't matter. But I will bite anyway. Yes, the Remans built the thing. But who designed, engineered, and developed is the question. Remember it is also said in the movie that Shinzon and the Remans would of gotten no where without the help of the Romulan militar.    

He also said the Remans had assemble a significant force and came to Romulus in force. Evidentally, the Reman does have some resources available to them, more than people think they do. The Remans do after all represent a majority of the population on Remus, and the Romulans can't hope to watch over an entire planet without missing something every now and then, which adds up. Even if there aren't as many Remans as Romulans in the Empire, there must still be hundred of millions on Remus. Plus, during the Dominion War, the Romulans relaxed their grip on the Remans in order to use them as a combat force. The Scimitar could very well have been conceived during that troubled time, when the Romulans had something more pressing to worry about then their own oppressed minority secretly building a planet-killer. Like them genicidal Dominions.

 Remember, the Romulans have the best secret police and intelligence organizations in Star Trek. History has show these to be very effective.  We all saw the movie; the towering Romulan guards at every corner glaring over the Remans, and beating them into place if they got out of line.    

Also, Remus isn't just a dillithium mine, it also has heavy weapons factory. Assuming those factories are also run by the Remans (quite probable, they built the factory near a source of labour, they have no reason to be there otherwise), that means the Reman population does comprise of skilled workers and technicians to some degree. And the Scimitar is really just a big heavy weapon, no more, no less.

 Weapons are only a part of a Starship. What about the warp drive? What would the Remans know about that? The Scimitar was able to run down a Sovereign class ship, while a D'deridex couldn't even run down a Galaxy. The Scimitar have super maneuverability. Where did the Remans learn to make a a ship that big so maneuverable? What about the very power primary and secondary shield system the Scimitar used? The Remans could build very powerful weapons, but what do they have to do with shield design, technology, and construction. The perfect cloak that is utterly undetechable,  and allows you to raise shields while cloaked and allows you to fire while cloak. The holograhpic projection communication system. Sure, the Remans make awesome weapons, and have the facilities to design and construct them, but where did all this other revolutionary technology come from?      

The Scimitar's design really contrasted away from what we've seen of Romulan designs, which is elegant at least in some way. Instead, the Scimitar is very crude, dark, utilitarian, and more like something a hard people would build.

 This is true, but it still has the Warbird look about it. John Eaves himself is quoted to as saying he intended that the Scimitar looked like it descended from the Valdore.  

And remember, there was only one Scimitar, which should not be too hard to manage for a people capable of rising up and landing on Romulus in force.

 Wasn't it said in the movie that it took all of Remus resources to built the Scimitar?  

It make sense that if the Remans only had so much resources, they would make something that cannot be easily overwhelmed by the numerically superior Romulans, plus it having a nasty little Easter egg inside.

 Everybody wants a ship that is superior to everyone elses ship.  

I still believe that with the sheer hatred between Romulans and Remans, the Romulans would never put something as powerful as the Scimitar under Reman control. It's quite literally, suicidal.

Lastly, there is no reason to include the Remans in the coup on Romulus at all, unless they had something unique to offer. If the Scimitar was a Romulan ship, they could have manned it with Romulans from the start and done Earth away with like they were promised, instead of the Romulan military officers being forced to yield to Shinzon's own priorities. It doesn't make any sense for the Romulans to shoot their own operation in the leg by placing someone like Shinzon in control of the single most powerful weapon the Empire ever produced. That's why I say that the Scimitar is a Reman creation.  

 Lets think about this.

First, we know the Romulan military had no love of the current government. After all, they helped kill off. Who is to say they didn't try to build the ship first, but the Praetor/Senate wouldn't let them, as it would be too costly/unnecessary/somesuch?  

So they give they the Remans a few of there revolutionary iteams that have been on the drawing board. They don't give them all there aces, but some. So, the Scimitar may be either of Romulan or Reman design, outfitted with the best of Reman weapons, plus a new Thalaron superweapon, and the revolutionary Romulan projects like the cloak and warp core. The movie seems to support this. as the Scimitar, though filled will awesome technologies, also seem to have some rather primitive systems, such as they pop-out thrusters needed to go in reverse, and flips and switches at the control stations.

What do the Romulans gain from this, you ask? It gives them a chance to test their technologies, to see if they are actually worht it or not. If Shinzon and the Remans failed to other throw the government,  the Romulan military had a strong scape goat and good plasuable deniability. If they worked, they proven the technologies AND have taken out a government they didn't like. So, now they let the Shinzon and the Remans parade around for a while. The now dead government was probably well liked, and they Romulan populace would hate being ruled over by an inferior human and his Remans. After letting the populaces hate simmer, the Romulan military will rise up and dispatch Shinzon and the Remans, and will establish themselves the government, where they people will love them and they will have no opposition.

Might even be alittle deeper than that. It be plotters WITHIN the military, who will raise up and say, "look at what the oofs at the head of our military did? The man the Remans in charge of us all!". And of course THEY will overthrow Shinzon, and then killed off the military's top leaders. Then they will establish themselves government, and public mourn and pay respect to the old goverment Shinzon orignally killed off, and the Romulan people will love them.

Lets remember now, the Scimitar and its technologies proved themselves to be awesome and revolutionary. The Remans have established everything, all the complexes, facturies, research complexes, supply bases, ect. So after the have killed of Shinzon and the Remans, they just have to step in and take over all that was conviently set up and built for them.

And of course, they go and make nice with the Federation. They are happy, the Federation is happy, the populace is happy.

   

[supe_k]

Tremok,
I understood what you meant.  I just like help people with some facts if I can.  

[Alidar Jarok]

Vulcan sensors couldn't break a Suliban cloak? Interesting.

They hadn't seen a Suliban cloak to start with.  It was Daneils who told Archer how to see them.  They could track their engine Residue, though

Most seem to think Minefield proves that Romulan BoPs can travel faster than light. As for what method they Early BoP can use, we have absolutely no idea.

No we don't.  But if we assume the TOS Bird of Prey is equally capable with its warp drive, it probably has a fusion reactor as a power source.  This means it would have a limited range.  Eventually it would have to turn back and re-feul.

It looked like a energy weapon to me. What makes you think otherwise?

I have withdrawn my statement.  I forgot to think about heavy weapons.  Their primary weapon could have been what they fired, Atomics would be their heavy, possibly exactly like Spatial Torpedoes (No there is no reason to suggest a Spatial Torpedo is Atomic either, but there is no reason to suggest it isn't)
 
If it is superior to the Raptor, than it IS superior to the Enterprise. Remember now, the Raptor had photon torpedoes and a hull that was three times as strong as the Enterprises.

Are you thinking of the Raptor, or the Battlecruiser from unexpected.  I think the Raptor was diabled when they found it, my memory is a little sketchy

I personally judge it a match that the better Captain would win.

That is what I meant
 
You say so. Just seems to me that Kirk manage to beat them around pretty easily.

They didn't fight much.  Not in Trouble with Tribbles and not in Day of the Dove.  I don't remmeber any other Klingon battle

If you say so. Personally, I have see any canon sources concerning ranges, cool down ratess, or damage vaules concerning D'deridex weapons, so I didn't type anything about them.
I just know in Tin Man, a D'deridex opened up on the Enterprise and "Shields down to 17 percent!"

I am basing it on Tin Man.  You hear about 9 shots fired in about 5 seconds (3 of them on screen, fired by the main cannon)

We never see any more than 4 or 5 Galaxies in a fleet. Though, we sometimes see dozens if not more of D'deridexes when the Romulans send there fleets to battle.

If I find the discussion I saw about total numbers, I'll post a link.  Someone suggested that, based on the ratio of Galaxies, there would be 200 or more (assuming a fleet of over 10,000, like some of the DS9 battles suggest)

Why do you think that? I believe the Federation tends to use many thousands of ships, and each ship tends to be specialized for a specific role, while threw 10 years of TNG and DS9, the only major Romulan Warship we saw was the D'deridex. I simply believe the Romulan builds as many D'deridex as it can.

That is basically what I said.  While the Federation makes specialized ships, the Romulans would make a D'deridex instead (so basically, while the Federation would make Akiras, Galaxies, Nebulas, and a bunch of other ships.  The Romulan Star Empire would make a D'deridex's.
 
Guess you can say that, considering we only saw the ship once, and we know absolutely nothing about it. Also, which size BoP are you talking about? They come from kids cheese burger to double quarter pounder.

Kirk's Bird of Prey (the 109 m, not the 55m, or the K'Vort)

It was classified as a scout even then.
 
You say so. We know absolutely nothing of the Valdore. It just seems to be that the intended for the Valdore to be the Romulan equivalent to the Sovereign as the D'deridex was the Romulan equivalent to the Galaxy. I believe we need more info the Valdore before we compare the ships more specifically.

Good point.

Some technobabble is probably needed to get the Romulans from being TOO powerful.

That is why I don't think they will use the Scimitar or Thelaron radiation    

[Tremok]

They hadn't seen a Suliban cloak to start with.  It was Daneils who told Archer how to see them.  They could track their engine Residue, though

 I see.  

No we don't.  But if we assume the TOS Bird of Prey is equally capable with its warp drive, it probably has a fusion reactor as a power source.  This means it would have a limited range.  Eventually it would have to turn back and re-feul.

 You can assume all you want, but I won't. I will wait for facts to be known.  

I have withdrawn my statement.  I forgot to think about heavy weapons.  Their primary weapon could have been what they fired, Atomics would be their heavy, possibly exactly like Spatial Torpedoes (No there is no reason to suggest a Spatial Torpedo is Atomic either, but there is no reason to suggest it isn't)

 Makes sense enough. But we don't know what heavy weapons that ship has until it uses them.  And no, the Spatial Torpedo is not atomic. In Minefield, the Enterprise was hit by a 25 kiloton or quarter kiloton mine. Either way, judging from the damage the mine did, and the type of damage we have seen the torpedo do, I think its highly unlikely that those torpedoes are atomic.    

Are you thinking of the Raptor, or the Battlecruiser from unexpected.  I think the Raptor was diabled when they found it, my memory is a little sketchy

 The Raptor was in the gas giant.    
 
They didn't fight much.  Not in Trouble with Tribbles and not in Day of the Dove.  I don't remmeber any other Klingon battle

 I was under the impression that the Enterprise had several skirmishish with them, and generally won.  

I am basing it on Tin Man.  You hear about 9 shots fired in about 5 seconds (3 of them on screen, fired by the main cannon)

 In TNG weapons tend to be fired in long, rapid vollies, with a moment for cool down, and the again fired in another long, rapid volley.

For example: there are times you will see the BigE fire 8 torpedoes off somewhere, wait for a few seconds, and another stream of torpedoes pour out. A phaser strike from the BigE tended to be several phrases going rapidly striking out, cool down for a few seconds, and another burst of phasers.  


If I find the discussion I saw about total numbers, I'll post a link.  Someone suggested that, based on the ratio of Galaxies, there would be 200 or more (assuming a fleet of over 10,000, like some of the DS9 battles suggest)

 Huh, I believe the biggest battle at the end of DS9 had no more than the 2000 ships. In Sacrifice of Angels, the Federation fleet consisted of 600~ ships (believe the real number is 589 or somesuch), and that required several big fleets. Very few people think the combined total of Federation ships is more than 8000. Most seem to content that right now its somewhere in the area of 7000-4000 ships.  

 

[La'ra]

Quote:
 I was under the impression that the Enterprise had several skirmishish with them, and generally won.  

The only time the Enterprise crossed swords with a D-7 in TOS was in Elaan of Troyius.  They defeated the Klingon ship with a photon torpedo volley that convinced the Klingons to leave the Enterprise alone.  Neither ship seemed to incur much damage.

Your analysis of the early Bird of Prey is interesting, however do keep in mind that in Balance of Terror Spock mentioned that the Earth-Romulan conflict was fought by ships roughly equal to each other, so any disparities are apparently eliminated by the time of the war.

I consider your analysis of the original, TOS Bird of Prey to be a bit skewed in the favor of the Romulans as well.  While the ship had a highly destructive weapon, it's shortcoming were rather extreme.  It was far slower than a Constitution-class ship, it had a highly limited fuel supply, and seemed a bit fragile when compared to it's opponent.  It seemed like a ship designed by people who knew their technology wasn't up to par with their neighbors and who tried to even the playing field by souping up the aspect of the vessel they considered the most important, hoping that the cloaking device combined with the giant weapon would compensate for it's notable flaws.    

[Tremok]

Quote:
 I was under the impression that the Enterprise had several skirmishish with them, and generally won.  

The only time the Enterprise crossed swords with a D-7 in TOS was in Elaan of Troyius.  They defeated the Klingon ship with a photon torpedo volley that convinced the Klingons to leave the Enterprise alone.  Neither ship seemed to incur much damage.

 I'll take your word for it.  

Your analysis of the early Bird of Prey is interesting, however do keep in mind that in Balance of Terror Spock mentioned that the Earth-Romulan conflict was fought by ships roughly equal to each other, so any disparities are apparently eliminated by the time of the war.

 According to the transcript, no such thing was said. All that was said was the war was fought roughly to a draw.  Already TOS has been proven unreliable as a source to predicate what things will happen in ENT. The only time will tell what the ships of the Romulan War are like.

Also, TOS was written pre-First Contact. It seems to me that the events of First Contact and the Temporal Time War is altering history in some ways. ENT might differ from the histroy written out by other Trek series before FC. Only time will tell.

Temoral fluctuations and things not happening like there supposed to has been part of the Enterprise plot since day one. This is why I don't loose sleep if some things don't match up perfect with ENT and other Trek series.

An interesting fact is the fact that Enterprise is the only Trek series to ever have a linear plot since day one.  

I consider your analysis of the original, TOS Bird of Prey to be a bit skewed in the favor of the Romulans as well.  While the ship had a highly destructive weapon, it's shortcoming were rather extreme.  It was far slower than a Constitution-class ship, it had a highly limited fuel supply, and seemed a bit fragile when compared to it's opponent.  It seemed like a ship designed by people who knew their technology wasn't up to par with their neighbors and who tried to even the playing field by souping up the aspect of the vessel they considered the most important, hoping that the cloaking device combined with the giant weapon would compensate for it's notable flaws.    

 I'll admit the Constitution probably was the better ship, but the BoP wasn't harmless. It did had the capabilites to destroy a Constitution, it simply had to be used properly.    

[La'ra]

Quote:
According to the transcript, no such thing was said. All that was said was the war was fought roughly to a draw.  Already TOS has been proven unreliable as a source to predicate what things will happen in ENT. The only time will tell what the ships of the Romulan War are like.

"The war was fought in primitive space vessels, using primitive atomic weapons allowing no quarter; no captives.  There were not even ship to ship visual commincations.  No Human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. " ---Commander Spock, 'Balance of Terror'.

This line, to me, implies close parity by the way it was phrased.  It's at least as substantive as using Lt. Reid's facial expressions to judge the power of Romulan weapons.

You are correct about Enterprise's consistency.  While I enjoy the show immensley, I do wish they paid more attention to the Original Series, which was and still is the best of Trek.

Quote:
 I'll admit the Constitution probably was the better ship, but the BoP wasn't harmless. It did had the capabilites to destroy a Constitution, it simply had to be used properly.    

Oh I agree, I was just expounding on the design philosiphy I percieved when looking closely at the vessel.  

[Tremok]

"

Quote:
The war was fought in primitive space vessels, using primitive atomic weapons allowing no quarter; no captives.  There were not even ship to ship visual commincations.  No Human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. " ---Commander Spock, 'Balance of Terror'.  

This line, to me, implies close parity by the way it was phrased.

 Imagine 300 hundred years in the future someone might say "300 years ago, primitve, nucleared power submarines, Alfa and Sea Wolf classes, fought each other in combat....". The statement would be true, both vessels would be nucleared powered, and both would be primitive in relation to them. However, the Sea Wolf has far greater capabilites than the Alfa. But then there might 12 Alfas to every Sea Wolf...

We will only know how Starfleet and Romulan vessels compared to each other in the Romulan War when we get there.  

It's at least as substantive as using Lt. Reid's facial expressions to judge the power of Romulan weapons.

 Lol, this is probably true.  

It simply seams to me, considering the Early BoPs advance technology and capabilites we have witness so far, that it is very likely to have considerably strong weapons.

But this is just guestmating. There is truth to the worlds that we simply won't know how strong the Early BoPs weapons are until we seem them used against a target in anger.  

You are correct about Enterprise's consistency. While I enjoy the show immensley, I do wish they paid more attention to the Original Series, which was and still is the best of Trek.

 Edit: Like I have stated before, I believe the inconsistencies of ENT are part of the plot. We'll see.

And I am too have the great gift of actually being able to enjoy the show. Those poor people... that come so close to blowing a vessel every Wednesday they dislike the show so much....  

[Tulmahk]

This from someone who doesn't know the difference between a D7 and a K'tinga?  LOL!

Yet more Tal Shiar propaganda...

Someone needs to check out ditl.org.  

[Tremok]

This from someone who doesn't know the difference between a D7 and a K'tinga?  LOL!

 Whoever claimed or accused someone of not knowing the difference between a D7 and K'tinga?  

Yet more Tal Shiar propaganda...

 Whatever you say?  

Someone needs to check out ditl.org.  

 Check out Daystrom for what?    

[La'ra]

Quote:
 Imagine 300 hundred years in the future someone might say "300 years ago, primitve, nucleared power submarines, Alfa and Sea Wolf classes, fought each other in combat....". The statement would be true, both vessels would be nucleared powered, and both would be primitive in relation to them. However, the Sea Wolf has far greater capabilites than the Alfa. But then there might 12 Alfas to every Sea Wolf...

We will only know how Starfleet and Romulan vessels compared to each other in the Romulan War when we get there.  

First of all, it wasn't 300 years into the future.  It was around 150.  Second, while your argument could be very true under most circumstances, we have to remember that it was Spock saying it...

Quote:
It simply seams to me, considering the Early BoPs advance technology and capabilites we have witness so far, that it is very likely to have considerably strong weapons.

The only 'advanced capabilities evident in the episode were cloaking technology and shields that repulsed the Enterprise's scans.  Their sensors might be fairly advanced, but much of the data they knew about the ship's situation could've been ascertained with a long-range telescope, so there's little evidence that their capabilities exceed Starfleet technology to any great degree.  Do note that the Enterprise often has difficulty scanning through shields, not just when they're Romulan shields.

Also note that the Romulans, known to be very aggressive and rather paranoid (which might explain their sensor-reflective shields), did not destroy the Enterprise and even continued to fire warning shots when they seemed to think Archer wasn't going to comply with their demands.  It's likely that, while they outnumbered the Starfleet ship, they were hesitant to truly engage simply because serious damage to at least one of their vessel's would've been impossible to avoid.

Quote:
But this is just guestmating. There is truth to the worlds that we simply won't know how strong the Early BoPs weapons are until we seem them used against a target in anger.

Quite true, I just think you need to remember this yourself...

Quote:
Edit: Like I have stated before, I believe the inconsistencies of ENT are part of the plot. We'll see.

And I am too have the great gift of actually being able to enjoy the show. Those poor people... that come so close to blowing a vessel every Wednesday they dislike the show so much....  
 

Honestly, Enterprise is my favorite Trek since TOS.  I feel most of the people who don't enjoy it take it far too seriously.    

[Tremok]

First of all, it wasn't 300 years into the future.  Yes. I know this. I was speaking metaphorically, I wasn't referring to when Spock had spoken.     It was around 150.  Second, while your argument could be very true under most circumstances, we have to remember that it was Spock saying it...  Hmm...  

Quote:
It simply seams to me, considering the Early BoPs advance technology and capabilites we have witness so far, that it is very likely to have considerably strong weapons.

The only 'advanced capabilities evident in the episode were cloaking technology and shields that repulsed the Enterprise's scans.  Their sensors might be fairly advanced, but much of the data they knew about the ship's situation could've been ascertained with a long-range telescope,  The Romulan sensors where good enough to whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function. I don't think they could of know that threw looking threw a telescope.    so there's little evidence that their capabilities exceed Starfleet technology to any great degree.  Do note that the Enterprise often has difficulty scanning through shields, not just when they're Romulan shields.

 The fact they even had shields shows the ship probably had superior technology than the NX.  

Also note that the Romulans, known to be very aggressive and rather paranoid (which might explain their sensor-reflective shields), did not destroy the Enterprise and even continued to fire warning shots when they seemed to think Archer wasn't going to comply with their demands.  It's likely that, while they outnumbered the Starfleet ship, they were hesitant to truly engage simply because serious damage to at least one of their vessel's would've been impossible to avoid.

 Or they writers didn't want the Romulans to blow the NX class to hell and end the show.

Also, Romulans are a thinking race. The Early BoPs where probably superior to the NX, but the Romulans wouldn't of know if that vessel was the strongest they had. The NX might of been just a scout ship, they might have something alot stronger or more advance. Or they might of have had huge fleets.

Romulans are chess players. It would go against there nature to start a war with an enemy they knew nothing about.

So, they don't outright destroy the NX-01 and possibly start a war, the intimidate them, giving them a display of power, make them shake with fear, scare them so bad that they never come near your space again.

Quote:
But this is just guestmating. There is truth to the worlds that we simply won't know how strong the Early BoPs weapons are until we seem them used against a target in anger.

Quite true, I just think you need to remember this yourself...

  Tremok writes on a piece of paper to remind himself of something he wrote in the first place.

I'll try, but no promises.    

Quote:
Edit: Like I have stated before, I believe the inconsistencies of ENT are part of the plot. We'll see.

And I am too have the great gift of actually being able to enjoy the show. Those poor people... that come so close to blowing a vessel every Wednesday they dislike the show so much....  
 

Honestly, Enterprise is my favorite Trek since TOS.  I feel most of the people who don't enjoy it take it far too seriously.    

 Enterprise is my second favorite after DS9.    

[Magnum357]

Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

[La'ra]

Quote:
The Romulan sensors where good enough to whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function. I don't think they could of know that threw looking threw a telescope.  

Maybe not telescopes, no, but what they did probably didn't require that much in the way of sensor tech.  Hell, they could've been monitoring the number of people with welding torches in the area of the mine.  When the torches went out, they figured they were done.

Far-fetched, I'll admit, but the point that there's very little evidence one way or the other still stands.

Quote:
The fact they even had shields shows the ship probably had superior technology than the NX.  

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Perhaps they went all out to get shields because they don't have the 'stop anything' hull plating of the NX-01.

Quote:
Also, Romulans are a thinking race. The Early BoPs where probably superior to the NX, but the Romulans wouldn't of know if that vessel was the strongest they had. The NX might of been just a scout ship, they might have something alot stronger or more advance. Or they might of have had huge fleets.

Romulans are chess players. It would go against there nature to start a war with an enemy they knew nothing about.

I know all about Romulans.  If you've never read any of Jaeih T'Radiak's fan fiction over on that board, I suggest you go take a look.  Admittedly she uses the more militaristic old-show Romulans rather than the mustache-twirling villians of TNG, but she does show that the really bad-ass Rommies she prefers are slowly becoming a minority.

Quote:
So, they don't outright destroy the NX-01 and possibly start a war, the intimidate them, giving them a display of power, make them shake with fear, scare them so bad that they never come near your space again.

Or they weren't sure how the fight would turn out and relied on bluff.

Quote:
 Enterprise is my second favorite after DS9.    

DS9 had very strong moments, though I thought the Dominion War was handled poorly, and the 1,000 ship battles seemed so not-Star Trek.  

[Tremok]

Quote:
The Romulan sensors where good enough to whatever around whatever so that whatever could work, and that could now safely jettison whatever without compromising whatever abilites to function. I don't think they could of know that threw looking threw a telescope.  

Maybe not telescopes, no, but what they did probably didn't require that much in the way of sensor tech.  Hell, they could've been monitoring the number of people with welding torches in the area of the mine.  When the torches went out, they figured they were done.

Far-fetched, I'll admit, but the point that there's very little evidence one way or the other still stands.

 Trip: We can't eject the hull section because of technobabble. It will require 4 hours of technobabble modifictions to able to.

Romulan at the end of the show: We know you have done this technobabble (goes into detail) so that you can now eject the hull plating and mine safely. Do so now and leave or we will blow you into whatever hell your species goto when you die.

Quote:
The fact they even had shields shows the ship probably had superior technology than the NX.  

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Perhaps they went all out to get shields because they don't have the 'stop anything' hull plating of the NX-01.

 Didn't stop old Romulan mines very well did? I know, I know, the hull wasn't polarized, but still..  

Quote:
Also, Romulans are a thinking race. The Early BoPs where probably superior to the NX, but the Romulans wouldn't of know if that vessel was the strongest they had. The NX might of been just a scout ship, they might have something alot stronger or more advance. Or they might of have had huge fleets.

Romulans are chess players. It would go against there nature to start a war with an enemy they knew nothing about.

I know all about Romulans.  If you've never read any of Jaeih T'Radiak's fan fiction over on that board, I suggest you go take a look.  Admittedly she uses the more militaristic old-show Romulans rather than the mustache-twirling villians of TNG, but she does show that the really bad-ass Rommies she prefers are slowly becoming a minority.

 I have read one or two of Jaeihs older stories, and will soon read some of her newer ones. If only if Sethan would get backed to writing... The bum...

I too have noticed the TOS Romulans seem different than the TNG ones. It makes sense to me, going along with Jaeihs "old schools are dying out as time goes one", the ENT Romulan Empire should be filled with more old school Romulans than either TOS or TNG.

Or perhaps the old school Romulans where well on there way in Enterprise, but the legendary Romulan Sethan made the old ways come back strong in the TOS era.

But lets not loose all hope now; the Romulans in Nemesis should themsevles to be strong in mnhei'sahe.  

Quote:
So, they don't outright destroy the NX-01 and possibly start a war, the intimidate them, giving them a display of power, make them shake with fear, scare them so bad that they never come near your space again.

Or they weren't sure how the fight would turn out and relied on bluff.

 Well, no use damaging or risking your ships unnecessarily. Why immediately engage it and risk starting a war when you can just growl and roar at it and send it running off with its tail between its legs?

Though, I think we will both agree that the Romulans where going to make that ship leave in short or that ship was going to be blown into pieces.  

Quote:
 Enterprise is my second favorite after DS9.    

DS9 had very strong moments, though I thought the Dominion War was handled poorly, and the 1,000 ship battles seemed so not-Star Trek.  

 Suit yourself. I liked it. And I thought those hundreds of ships space battles were the coolest sci-fi combat ever.    

[32nd Halcyon]

Aren't the Romulans behind much of the time altering with the Suliban?
They would be able to know the specs for the NX-1, wouldn't they?

Correct me if I'm wrong. I've only seen a handful of the shows due to my work schedule.

[Tremok]

 Many people seem to believe this, since the Romulans are so  Fvadting  devious.

But there is no canon to support this.    

[Alidar Jarok]

I have read one or two of Jaeihs older stories, and will soon read some of her newer ones. If only if Sethan would get backed to writing... The bum...

Yeah

I want to read "Survivng the Fire"

Anyway

In "The Enterprise Incident" it was said

"They want something, or they would have destroyed us by now."

In the Defector Picard said,

"Not yet, Mister Worf.  This is just a tap on the shoulder. Or we wouldn't be here talking about it"

In Tin Man they didn't even bother to hail (they just started firing)

So the Romulans really haven't changed that much.

I believe T'Pol said they were highly agressive.

I think they didn't attack for the same reason they didn't attack the Enterprise (D) in "The Neutral Zone"

They were judging the Enterprise

It was decided to just let them leave before they could start spying.

Later, they would regret this decision and attack on site.

The Federation used that to interperet the Romulans as a savage race.

Remember, that is just my opinion
 

[Tremok]

 

Quote:
Yeah

I want to read "Survivng the Fire"  

 Indeed, I wish I could find a link back to the old forums to the story. Or that Sethan would be so kind as to repost it in the new ones.  


 

Quote:
I believe T'Pol said they were highly agressive. (snip)  

 Indeed they are, but they AREN'T reckless either.  They calculate their moves.  
 
   

[Tremok]

Quote:
Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

 Because the TV shows and the movies are the only things that are canon?    

[Karnak]

I will never accept the idea that the BoP in TOS "Balance of Terror" episode was not warp capable.   The Rom travels too far too fast to justifly sub-light max. velocity. I tend to think Roms were stuck with Warp 3 max. engines until their treaty with the Klingons.  Travelling at Warp 3 (approx. 40c)  is enough to carve out a 50 to 100 Light year diameter empire.

[La'ra]

Quote:
 Because the TV shows and the movies are the only things that are canon?    

I was gonna say 'because it's fun'.  The yellow reads easier than the green, btw.  I'll get around to responding to your previous reply later this afternoon.  

[Tremok]

Quote:

Quote:
 Because the TV shows and the movies are the only things that are canon?    

I was gonna say 'because it's fun'.  The yellow reads easier than the green, btw.  I'll get around to responding to your previous reply later this afternoon.  

 
(checks date)

Come on La'ra! Don't let me down!    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

There needs to be some kind of official nod to a publicized version of the "facts." If the Star Trek Encyclopedia or some other more reliable source were sanctioned by Paramount Pictures as canon material, then these endless debates would be pointless (aka "the D'Deridex is clearly the superior ship than the Galaxy class and here's why..." or "no, your argument is incorrect as you have no canon sources to back up your argument..." blah, blah). It's just like the other thread where Tremok and myself had it off about why a Klingon D5 warship couldn't defeat the NX-01 in the first few shots.

Somebody at Paramount needs to set the record straight once and for all with an official publication from the very people who create the ships and the writers who create the fictional technology. It would be a good way to cap off all the DVD re-releases of the shows and movies.

We can start with an intro; "In the mid 1960s, Gene Roddenberry devised a new concept set in the science fiction genre..." From there, Paramount can address all the canon inconsistency issues from TOS to ENT. Give us total starship specs and comparisons, including an explanation of all the technology involved and so forth. Whatever they want, as long as the preface or somepart of the book(s) states that it is official canon material by Paramount, and not simply licensed material. When we have that, then the masses shall be appeased. But until then...

There is no way a Valdore could equal or better the firepower of a Sovereign class ship. Does the Quantum Torpedo mean anything to you guys? The Roms plasma torpedo, no matter how powerful, could never stand up to the rapid fire capability and reliablity of the quants, imho. But then again, we know so little of the Valdores to draw a proper conclusion other than the fact that the Scimitar destroyed one and easily disabled another. This coming from only one movie and just a few minutes of footage.

 

So there,  

CIV  

[Tremok]

Quote:

Quote:
Why is their always some Trekkies out their that try to judge how powerful a ship is based on what they saw on the show?   The only show in Star Trek that came close to determining how powerful ships are from one another is probably DS9, but I know how many Star Trek fans don't like that show etheir.  That is why I've always been a SFB fan, the game was based on its own universe and not some theories of writers and fans.  

There needs to be some kind of official nod to a publicized version of the "facts." If the Star Trek Encyclopedia or some other more reliable source were sanctioned by Paramount Pictures as canon material, then these endless debates would be pointless (aka "the D'Deridex is clearly the superior ship than the Galaxy class and here's why..." or "no, your argument is incorrect as you have no canon sources to back up your argument..." blah, blah). It's just like the other thread where Tremok and myself had it off about why a Klingon D5 warship couldn't defeat the NX-01 in the first few shots.

 Well, they don't. And I enjoy these discussions.  

Somebody at Paramount needs to set the record straight once and for all with an official publication from the very people who create the ships and the writers who create the fictional technology. It would be a good way to cap off all the DVD re-releases of the shows and movies.

 You say so.  

We can start with an intro; "In the mid 1960s, Gene Roddenberry devised a new concept set in the science fiction genre..." From there, Paramount can address all the canon inconsistency issues from TOS to ENT. Give us total starship specs and comparisons, including an explanation of all the technology involved and so forth. Whatever they want, as long as the preface or somepart of the book(s) states that it is official canon material by Paramount, and not simply licensed material. When we have that, then the masses shall be appeased. But until then...

  I think the closes your gonna get is the unofficial word from the ship creators on the Alt.startrek.net message boards.  I had a few discussions with Rick Sternbach on Star Trek ships a ways back. Good guy.  

There is no way a Valdore could equal or better the firepower of a Sovereign class ship.

 Says who?  

Does the Quantum Torpedo mean anything to you guys? The Roms plasma torpedo, no matter how powerful, could never stand up to the rapid fire capability and reliablity of the quants, imho.

 Rapid fire capability? Reliablity? Bit of an arrogant assumption to make, considering we nothing absolutely nothing of Romulan torpedoes.  

But then again, we know so little of the Valdores to draw a proper conclusion

 Guess we better not make any claims that one ship is superior over the other because one torpedo one ship has is better than another ships torpedo that we know absolutely nothing about then huh?  

other than the fact that the Scimitar destroyed one and easily disabled another. This coming from only one movie and just a few minutes of footage.

 Bah, the Scimitar cleaned house against all the ships.  
 

[ChamadaIV]

I see you rather enjoy dissecting other people's words as they are written with line-by-line analysis summed up in just a few words/phrases/sentences. Annoying, but understandable (expects this line to be commented on as well).

If you thought that last part about the torpedoes and the Valdore vs Sovereign was a serious argument, then you are woefully mistaken. I was merely proving a point by what I said earlier just to show others how pointless and silly these Trek discussions are (I get caught in the trap myself time and time again, and I expect I will yet again in the future). They are fun and sometimes insightful, but ultimately pointless and usually changes nothing in the end. By taking what I said in that last paragraph seriously, you proved my point even moreso. So I thank you.  

Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink (tell me that in nanoseconds and it should have been that fast).  

 

CIV    

[Alidar Jarok]

Quote:
(expects this line to be commented on as well)

What makes you say that?

Quote:
Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink

Kill that ¢r@ppy Hu-Man Ship

Edit:  Cr@ppy turns into a link? (automatically gets [ email ] [ /email ] tags)

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:

Quote:
(expects this line to be commented on as well)

What makes you say that?

You'll have to excuse me, but as it turns out, Tremok's not the first one I've criticized for doing line-by-line commenting. It happens all the time, I've done it myself before. It's a good way to respond to a person's posts. It just annoys me sometimes, that's all. As my ex-girl used to say "Just deal with it." Well, I am.

Quote:
Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink

Quote:
Kill that ¢r@ppy Hu-Man Ship

Edit:  Cr@ppy turns into a link? (automatically gets [ email ] [ /email ] tags)

No kidding. Sounds
Post Preview: Whoa. Now there's an anomoly worth noting. Somebody should ask Dave Farrell what's up with that. Not that its a problem or anything.    

EDIT: Hey wait. It's nothing, just the @ symbol tricking the forum engine into thinking its an email address, ie <a href="mailto:username@domain.com">Cr@ppy">Cr@ppy</a> to me.

Post Preview: Whoa. Now there's an anomoly worth noting. Somebody should ask Dave Farrell what's up with that. Not that its a problem or anything.    

EDIT: Hey wait. It's nothing, just the @ symbol tricking the forum engine into thinking its an email address, ie <a href="mailto:username@domain.com

[ChamadaIV]

Sweet jesus...the BB Code in that last post went nuts. Oh well, you can decipher it for yourself. LOL

[Tremok]

I see you rather enjoy dissecting other people's words as they are written with line-by-line analysis summed up in just a few words/phrases/sentences.

 Absolutely.  

Annoying, but understandable (expects this line to be commented on as well).

 Don't worry, I won't waste my time.  

If you thought that last part about the torpedoes and the Valdore vs Sovereign was a serious argument, then you are woefully mistaken. I was merely proving a point by what I said earlier just to show others how pointless and silly these Trek discussions are (I get caught in the trap myself time and time again, and I expect I will yet again in the future).

 Call it whatever you want, sir. I find it throughly enjoyable.  

They are fun and sometimes insightful, but ultimately pointless and usually changes nothing in the end. By taking what I said in that last paragraph seriously, you proved my point even moreso. So I thank you.  

 Your welcome. I think. As for why I took the statement in question seriously, pick,

1. I find the said statement to be as reasonable as some other arguments that you have made,
2. Its very hard to pick up sarcasm from text (you usually have to lay it on very thick)
3. Both

 


Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink (tell me that in nanoseconds and it should have been that fast).  

 Life does indeed suck doesn't?

Truer words...    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
I see you rather enjoy dissecting other people's words as they are written with line-by-line analysis summed up in just a few words/phrases/sentences.

 Absolutely.  

How delightfully typical...my turn then.

Quote:
Annoying, but understandable (expects this line to be commented on as well).

 Don't worry, I won't waste my time.  

Maybe I should've said "I expect you won't even bother." OR "(Insert lame/arrogant comment here)"

Quote:
If you thought that last part about the torpedoes and the Valdore vs Sovereign was a serious argument, then you are woefully mistaken. I was merely proving a point by what I said earlier just to show others how pointless and silly these Trek discussions are (I get caught in the trap myself time and time again, and I expect I will yet again in the future).

 Call it whatever you want, sir. I find it throughly enjoyable.  

Well that is good. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. *sigh* I guess I'll join you then. I suppose I should tell you that your history on Rom ships isn't nearly as complete or historical as it should have been. As far as acuracy, it was good except ... your judgements about the BoP's capabilities (the one shown on ENT). They are derived from pure supposition and has yet to be determined by canon (because there is insufficient canon material on this BoP as of yet). To not let this be a one-sided ad hominem, my views on the D5's capabilities are also derived from prior Treknowledge and yes, supposition as well. Opinions we have, written facts we do not (as far as I can tell that is).

Quote:
They are fun and sometimes insightful, but ultimately pointless and usually changes nothing in the end. By taking what I said in that last paragraph seriously, you proved my point even moreso. So I thank you.  

 Your welcome. I think. As for why I took the statement in question seriously, pick,

1. I find the said statement to be as reasonable as some other arguments that you have made,
2. Its very hard to pick up sarcasm from text (you usually have to lay it on very thick)
3. Both

 

So that statement seemed valid to you when compared to what we have discussed before. Damn, too bad we couldn't chat in person. I'd say it so that you could catch the sarcasm. It is indeed wise to see the forest for the trees, but sometimes its necessary to see it for more than what it really is. You don't have to hear my words actually, but if you drew the clues from the context of my words, then you would understand.

Did you get that, or should I repeat it again?

Quote:
Heh, for tradition's sake, I still think the D5 should've blasted the NX-01 away faster than you could blink (tell me that in nanoseconds and it should have been that fast).  

 Life does indeed suck doesn't?

Truer words...    

No, its not Life that sucks per se, only the people that try to make it suck for those who don't want it that way.      

[Tremok]

Maybe I should've said "I expect you won't even bother." OR "(Insert lame/arrogant comment here)"

 Perhaps you should of. *shrug*  

Quote:
If you thought that last part about the torpedoes and the Valdore vs Sovereign was a serious argument, then you are woefully mistaken. I was merely proving a point by what I said earlier just to show others how pointless and silly these Trek discussions are (I get caught in the trap myself time and time again, and I expect I will yet again in the future).

 Call it whatever you want, sir. I find it throughly enjoyable.  

Well that is good. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. *sigh* I guess I'll join you then.

 I am corrupting you eh?  

I suppose I should tell you that your history on Rom ships isn't nearly as complete or historical as it should have been.

 Thanks for telling me. So, what should I have done different.  

As far as acuracy, it was good except ... your judgements about the BoP's capabilities (the one shown on ENT). They are derived from pure supposition and has yet to be determined by canon (because there is insufficient canon material on this BoP as of yet).

 I've made my case for the Early BoP. Seeing who you don't actually try to disprove me, but simply say I am wrong, I take it as matter that you simply don't agree. Fair enough.  

To not let this be a one-sided ad hominem, my views on the D5's capabilities are also derived from prior Treknowledge and yes, supposition as well. Opinions we have, written facts we do not (as far as I can tell that is).

 Yes, we both made our cases for the D5.  

Quote:
They are fun and sometimes insightful, but ultimately pointless and usually changes nothing in the end. By taking what I said in that last paragraph seriously, you proved my point even moreso. So I thank you.  

 

So that statement seemed valid to you when compared to what we have discussed before.

 Might just be me. *shrug*  

Damn, too bad we couldn't chat in person. I'd say it so that you could catch the sarcasm.
It is indeed wise to see the forest for the trees, but sometimes its necessary to see it for more than what it really is. You don't have to hear my words actually, but if you drew the clues from the context of my words, then you would understand.

 One person makes a statement on the web being serious, another makes an exact same statement but is being sarcastic.

I find it too much of a headache to try to discern when people are being sarcastic or not. I just everything seriously.  


 

[Alidar Jarok]

Maybe you should have realized that when you said

(expects this line to be commented on as well)

That it would be jokingly commented on

I asked why do you think that, knowing full well that I would be commenting on it.

[jimmi7769]

Hey look everybody!!!   It's the Tremok and Chamada IV Show!!!!

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
Hey look everybody!!!   It's the Tremok and Chamada IV Show!!!!  

Yeah, it's almost like watching Bill Clinton and Bob Dole on 60 Minutes...  

Your input is noted Alidar.

As for what should've been done differently as far as the main topic of this thread, welll, nothing really needs to be done differently. More like adding to it. I see you pulled your ship pics from Ex Astria Scientia. An excellent site for all that is Trek. I only wish to know why you didn't further discuss things like the little known Rom scout ship or the Scorpion shuttle/fighter from Nemesis. If your source was indeed Bernd Schneider's site, then info on these ships were clearly there for you to touch upon. No big deal really. Just a thought.  

[La'ra]

Sorry Tremok.  I'm enjoying this exchange too much to interfere at the moment.  

[Tremok]

Quote:

As for what should've been done differently as far as the main topic of this thread, welll, nothing really needs to be done differently. More like adding to it. I see you pulled your ship pics from Ex Astria Scientia. An excellent site for all that is Trek. I only wish to know why you didn't further discuss things like the little known Rom scout ship or the Scorpion shuttle/fighter from Nemesis. If your source was indeed Bernd Schneider's site, then info on these ships were clearly there for you to touch upon. No big deal really. Just a thought.  

 I see. I always intended for this post to be a work in progress; that is, I will add more to it as time goes on.

In the next few days I will write up an analysis on the Enterprise/BoP TOS Battle, the combat history of the D'deridex (that we know of from the episodes, anyway), and my reports on the Science Ship, Scout Ship, Romulan Shuttle, and the Scorpion attackcraft.  I'll probably set down and do it this weekend.

RE: Ex Astria Scientia

It is a good site. I enjoy Bernds articles. He usually doesn't say much about the ships, but he does give you interesting tibits.

I use several of his pictures for two reasons:

1. They are decent pictures, and
2. They are nice and compact. I don't wish to huge pictures. (with the 30 timeout limit and all)    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
Sorry Tremok.  I'm enjoying this exchange too much to interfere at the moment.  

Everyone around here seems to get somewhat entertained when Tremok and myself have these exchanges...

maybe its time we ask Taldren for some kind of exclusive Trek debate forum or something...

nah, Dave would never go for that.    

[Tremok]

Quote:
Sorry Tremok.  I'm enjoying this exchange too much to interfere at the moment.  

  It seems that me and Mr. CIV have made nice (for now, anyway).

Anyway, this is somewhat off topic, but its my dern thread anyway.

I was surfing the web, and this is what I found.

 
 
 

What, does the Nova class have incredible growing abilities? One moment, its around 150 meters, next its more around 400 meters (the Negh'var is close to 700meters). Guess the FX people didn't want a ship 1/6th as small as the Negh'vars beating beating them up, so they made the Rhode Island just 1/2th as small.

Speaking of which, so much for the mighty Klingon Empire. Two Negh'vars getting chased off by a single Nova. Thats worse than *3 ~700 meter BoPs and a Galaxy scaring off 2 D'deridexes. How embarrassing

Of course, it simply could by they shrunk the Negh'vars (they would be I believe smaller than the Vor'chas if they did that).

*Remember now, back in that day 2 much smaller BoPs easily beat the Enterprise-D once. (forgot the episode, I'll look it up later).

Update: The episode was called Rascals, and the two BoPs where crewed by mighty, combat harden  Ferengi.  

[SuperDadOf5]

very well thought out.  

[Tremok]

 What was very well thought out?