Topic: no news is NOT good news...

[anduril]

I guess what is really understood is that this dead horse is nothing but a greasy spot on the sidewalk with a bunch of old men stomping around on top of it.

This arguement has been brought up so many times it's not even funny.  Save it for the off topic or general forum.


Where is Mackie with one of his Lamer alerts when you need him?

[Hig Hurtenflurst]

I think the important thing people need to focus on is.......  P81 IS MAKING A NEW ENTERPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WOO HOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

[Reliant37]

Quote:
I guess what is really understood is that this dead horse is nothing but a greasy spot on the sidewalk with a bunch of old men stomping around on top of it.

This arguement has been brought up so many times it's not even funny.  Save it for the off topic or general forum.

Where is Mackie with one of his Lamer alerts when you need him?  

Gee... how... nice. It was obviously worth repeating, wasn't it?  

[Captain KoraH]

Uhhh... anyone who is unclear about what Cleeve is doing needs to go to his website. Anyone who isn't sure I know what I'm talking about obviously hasn't see the site in a while. Take a minute, check it out. It's perfectly harmless.

As for copyrights, as many of you know I'm one of the community's most outspoken on this topic. There is no set law governing SFC models. There likely never will be. It's all open to your own personal interpretation of the law until it goes to court and a judge decides what the law means. That's the way our system works. Here is what I beleive:

A model maker owns his work, no matter what it's a likeness of. Just because someone makes a statue of President Bush doesn't mean President Bush has any claim of ownership on it. SFC models are a work of  art, which the artist owns.

While Taldren (or Activision possibly) owns the .mod model format, they have given defacto permission for the public at large to use this format to make fan based models. That means ANY fan based models. The fact that they allow us to make them, and even create a forum for us to talk about them, legitimizes the practice sufficiently to hold up in court.

Charging money for a work of art is perfectly legal. How do you think artists make a living? What's different between a painting of the Enterprise and a 3D model of it? Nothing as far as the law is concerned. And it's perfectly legal to paint a picture of the Enterprise, isn't it.

Everyone is free to disagree with me, but they will be wrong.  


Hey, it's all good, we're all friends here. If P81 wants to sell a model so what?  There's no law against it. And you don't have to buy it!

This post dedicated to Anduril and Cleeve, my favorite hypocrites  

[Reliant37]

Quote:
As for copyrights, as many of you know I'm one of the community's most outspoken on this topic. There is no set law governing SFC models.

Yes there is: copyright laws apply to everything that isn't (or can't be) patented. Copyright doesn't have to be registered--it's a natural law. I.e. as soon as you make something, you own the copyright. However, there are exceptions, for example, when you create a DERIVATIVE work, i.e. something based on someone else's stuff that looks enough like that other person's stuff to be considered a violation of that person (the original maker)'s copyright. In other words, as I've said twice now, creating a SFC model of the STARSHIP ENTERPRISE, which is a design OWNED by Paramount, is ILLEGAL.

I'll explain it even further, since obviously the message is not coming across (and in case you're wondering, I took and PASSED courses in copyright and intellectual property law, so I have some knowledge concerning the field).

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There likely never will be. It's all open to your own personal interpretation of the law until it goes to court and a judge decides what the law means. That's the way our system works.

No, it doesn't work like that. There are laws. These may be tested in court, but most of them stand until a judge decides otherwise--not the other way around (which is what you're claiming). Copyright law is pretty old, so any loopholes you think you might have discovered have long since been sealed. I'll deal with each one of your points in turn.

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A model maker owns his work, no matter what it's a likeness of.

Wrong. If you COPY something that is owned by someone else, it infringes on that person's copyright. Copyright is an inalienable RIGHT. It can't be bought or sold--and it is up to the owner to pursue those violations if he is to retain the copyright of said works. Paramount lets most things slide--no sites have been closed down in some time now. However, if you start asking money for your model of the USS Enterprise, then that hurts Paramount financially, and they'll claim their copyright is violated by you and will send an army of lawyers out to crush you. Copyright means: the right of the ORIGINAL MAKER or OWNER OF THE WORK to publish and multiply the work at a time of his/her/their choosing in a medium of his/her/their choosing. Anything else is illegal, such as what P81 is apparently doing.

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Just because someone makes a statue of President Bush doesn't mean President Bush has any claim of ownership on it.

No, but you can't make a statue of Bush and sell it for a profit WITHOUT asking his permission first. This doesn't relate so much to copyright law, but to portrait and private law. For example, if someone takes your picture while you're drinking a bottle of Coca-Cola, and then uses that picture in an advertisement, without asking your permission or paying you, then you can sue him for violating your privacy.

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SFC models are a work of  art, which the artist owns.

Derivative works cannot legally be copyrighted, since they are derivative (copies) of an original work that is owned by someone else. As I said before, NO MATTER the amount of work YOU put into creating a good COPY of the USS Enterprise, it would still be ILLEGAL for you to sell it WITHOUT asking permission from the COPYRIGHT HOLDER, i.e. Paramount. Just imagine someone else ripping off something original that you once made and then selling it for a profit WITHOUT asking your permission. I imagine you would be pissed off, wouldn't you?

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While Taldren (or Activision possibly) owns the .mod model format, they have given defacto permission for the public at large to use this format to make fan based models. That means ANY fan based models. The fact that they allow us to make them, and even create a forum for us to talk about them, legitimizes the practice sufficiently to hold up in court.

But not the selling of such .MODs at a profit, particularly when it concerns a copyrighted design.

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Charging money for a work of art is perfectly legal.

Depends; it's ILLEGAL when it's a derived work (copy) that wasn't authorised or licenced by the original copyright holder, as I have said THREE TIMES now.

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How do you think artists make a living?

By creating ORIGINAL artwork and selling THAT. Not by creating DUPLICATES/COPIES/DERIVATIVE works and selling those at a profit WITHOUT asking the copyright holder for permission. That isn't hard to understand, is it?

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What's different between a painting of the Enterprise and a 3D model of it? Nothing as far as the law is concerned. And it's perfectly legal to paint a picture of the Enterprise, isn't it.

BUT IT WOULDN'T BE LEGAL IF YOU SOLD THAT PAINTING WITHOUT ASKING PERMISSION FROM THE ORIGINAL COPYRIGHT HOLDER, which is what this debate was about on the previous page and which is something I've tried explaining now THREE TIMES. I really don't see how I could make this any more clear than this.
 

Quote:
Hey, it's all good, we're all friends here. If P81 wants to sell a model so what?  There's no law against it.

It is a MODEL of the ENTERPRISE that is OWNED by PARAMOUNT and he has NO PERMISSION from said copyright holder--PARAMOUNT--to sell it, MAKING IT ILLEGAL. How do I know this? It's simple really: THERE IS A LAW AGAINST IT.

Sheesh...  

[DestinyCalling]

..... my head hurts now.!!!!!!....

So P81 and Cleeve are selling SFC models...........

SO WHAT..!!!!!

Anyone stupid enough to fork out $200 for a 3d model has clearly lost the plot......

I hope they get sued.....!!!!!  

[Captain KoraH]

Wow. I can't say I even read the whole of that lengthy reply. I started to, but then I thought... who cares?


Not me.





 

[Anthony_Scott]

So  what if P-81 is finally getting compensated for his superb work after all this time? Looking at his Norway class in my model viewer I can see why! I wish him the best in his new endeavor!

I am perhaps alone in thinking this way but if you have the skills t put out models like Zombie, Darkdrone, and Pata then you should be compensated finally!

 

[Cleeve]

Reliant37:

Quote:
 I took and PASSED courses in copyright and intellectual property law, so I have some knowledge concerning the field).

Well then Reliant, you know that... Legal or illegal... the onus is on Paramount to prosecute those who they fell have infringed. Not, er... you.

And you also know that to recieve damages from a modeller they would have to prove that a) the modeller had damaged their reputation or b) lost them revenue.

We can argue theory until the cows come home. But Paramount's legal team has better things to do than sue fan artists for a couple hundred bucks.
In fact, during the fan-site internet fiasco they were involved in some years back, they have learned that fan artists and sites help their franchise, NOT hurt it.
And prosecuting their loyal fans DEFINITELY hurts it.

You see, Paramount now understands the symbiotic relationship they have with their fans. This is a mutually beneficial thing. Hence, the fans have been left alone. They have lived long and prospered.

You can rant and rave and try to scare people all you want, but if Paramount's legal team does not prosecute, this is all theoretical.   If you have knowledge in the field as you claim, you know all this, right?

And you would also know that the first step in a copyright suit is a simple letter asking the infringer to cease and decist, don't you? Not wholesale legal warfare and fan-site destruction.
Interesting, because... I haven't seen one of those letters yet. Nor do I know anyone who has.

That will be enough with the whiney annihilist melodrama, thank you very much...

P.S. KORAH IS DA MAN!!!  
 

[Reliant37]

See below...

[Reliant37]

Quote:
Well then Reliant, you know that... Legal or illegal... the onus is on Paramount to prosecute those who they fell have infringed. Not, er... you.

I said that. Then again, you probably think it's okay to rob people, too, as long as the police doesn't catch you (see below).

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And you also know that to recieve damages from a modeller they would have to prove that a) the modeller had damaged their reputation or b) lost them revenue.

No, they NEED to pursue their copyright if they are to retain it. Nowadays, they're a bit more lenient. Fan sites are okay, but NOT if they start offering up entire episodes, for example, or try to make a fast buck on the Star Trek name. Or didn't you notice that download sites that offer episodes are closed pretty fast, or at least have to remove the offending material? If you start asking money for models, they WILL be hurt financially. That may damage the modding community--which was my point all along.

Then again, if you KNOW what you're doing is WRONG, why do it? Because it's OKAY as long as no one catches you? This would be the same as saying: well, getting arrested and locked up for robbing a bank is nice in THEORY, but they'll have to catch me first. Doesn't it OCCUR to you, or anyone else, that it is WRONG to effectively STEAL from Paramount and make a fast buck off of their designs? If you want to earn money, go do something original--THEN you're free to ask whatever you want.

Maybe someone will then come and STEAL your design, thinking it's okay if he can get away with it. Morality be damned!

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We can argue theory until the cows come home. But Paramount's legal team has better things to do than sue fan artists for a couple hundred bucks.

Obviously, you are completely unaware of the legal action Paramount has taken against, for example, fans that publish books that Paramount feels infringes on their copyright (there was a case some time ago, where a fan published a book on how Trek had influenced his life--Paramount deemed it a violation since the book offered synopses of episodes, and Paramount deemed that an infringement on their rights). But please, feel free to keep your head in the sand.

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In fact, during the fan-site internet fiasco they were involved in some years back, they have learned that fan artists and sites help their franchise, NOT hurt it.

Not ALL sites, but some did. Check the history of that whole "fiasco" if you will.

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And prosecuting their loyal fans DEFINITELY hurts it.

Prosecuting fans if you have a LEGAL reason won't hurt them. Most fans are blissfully unaware about copyright law...

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You can rant and rave and try to scare people all you want, but if Paramount's legal team does not prosecute, this is all theoretical.   If you have knowledge in the field as you claim, you know all this, right?

It isn't THEORETICAL, it's LAW. There are examples to prove my case. But then again, you would argue it's all theoretical, right?

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And you would also know that the first step in a copyright suit is a simple letter asking the infringer to cease and decist, don't you?

Yes, I do. Does it make any difference? The end result is the same: stuff gets removed, and it puts fans into a bad light (not that paramount CARES about the fans, of course).

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Not wholesale legal warfare and fan-site destruction.

So, now you're saying that these things DIDN'T occur? I'd point out the examples, but why bother? You're obviously not going to listen, right?

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Interesting, because... I haven't seen one of those letters yet. Nor do I know anyone who has.

That's because there are only two or three people around here who ask to be payed for their modelling of COPYRIGHTED designs? If I recall correctly, you were one of them.

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That will be enough with the whiney annihilist melodrama, thank you very much...

So much for intelligent debate. I always like it when people start insulting others. Makes it so mature. Ah well. I'll be off then. I really wanted to enjoy my time here, but obviously you're not supposed to.

Oh, when you receive a cease and desist letter from a Paramount attorney, don't say I didn't warn you. Keep on hurting the community!  

[Cleeve]

Sweet jesus man, you are naive.

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Then again, if you KNOW what you're doing is WRONG, why do it? Because it's OKAY as long as no one catches you?

Actually, moral policeman Reliant, I don't have a moral hang up with producing work for personal use, like you do. You see, me producing a model for someone has absolutely no way of hurtring Paramount. Me turning someones wished-for ship design into reality, wether it be their own design or official,  to play in a game or make screenshots of, is a good thing. It is a route that has been previously unavailable to people who do not have modelling skills themselves. I'd love to do it for free, but there's that bit about working for fair exchange and all. I don't have an infinite amount of hours to donate to the star trek world, I've already gave quite a bit, thanks. And I will continue to give in the future.
You see, if the model downloads were offered to the public at a cost per download, I think you might have a point. As it is, models created are for private use exclusively, or if they are offered to the public it is for *free*. As such, The funds modellers recieve are for our manhours, not the model distribution, see? That is an important legal distinction. You should pay attention to that, because it's key. Right, legal beagle?

I can't think of why you'd want to deprive people of an avenue like this. Then again, I don't creep around on forums looking for potential moral outrages.

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Obviously, you are completely unaware of the legal action Paramount has taken against, for example, fans that publish books that Paramount feels infringes on their copyright (there was a case some time ago, where a fan published a book on how Trek had influenced his life--Paramount deemed it a violation since the book offered synopses of episodes, and Paramount deemed that an infringement on their rights). But please, feel free to keep your head in the sand.

Blah blah blah. We all know they act in a legal fashon when they need to.
What we're disagreeing on here is wether they would percieve they need to. I don't think they will, as I don't see the moral dillemma you describe.
What we also know is that selling a book en masse or featuring a spaceship on a TV show for large amounts of cash is not the legal equivalent of turning someone's design into a reality for personal use or free distribution. Quite the opposite, especially when the defacto stance has been to allow modelling of canon ships for use in games for the past 3 years or so.
We also know that their current policy is hands off. Irrelevant details and are of no interest to me. I wonder why you include them?

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It isn't THEORETICAL, it's LAW. There are examples to prove my case. But then again, you would argue it's all theoretical, right?

Oh god. Civil law doesn't work like that. We're not talking crimminal law here. Unlike Criminal law, The onus is on the plantiff to bring the issue to the court's attention if they think it is improper. And if they don't think it's improper, a modeller doesent get a cease-and-decist letter.
The onus is NOT on *YOU*. Because you cannot speak for them. Because you are not their lawyer, see? If you were, you would be fired.

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Not wholesale legal warfare and fan-site destruction.

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So, now you're saying that these things DIDN'T occur? I'd point out the examples, but why bother? You're obviously not going to listen, right?

No, my point is that it is unlikely for it to occur again because a lesson is learned. (Well, some people learn).

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That's because there are only two or three people around here who ask to be payed for their modelling of COPYRIGHTED designs? If I recall correctly, you were one of them.

Indeed. I encourage anyone with a ship design they would like to see made go to www.STARYARDS.com and employ our premium modelling services for all types of spaceships, Star Wars, Star Trek, and custom designs!!! All are possible with our talented team of modellers! [/end of plug]

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So much for intelligent debate. I always like it when people start insulting others. Makes it so mature. Ah well. I'll be off then. I really wanted to enjoy my time here, but obviously you're not supposed to.

Actually, I am deriving a hefty chunk of amusement from your naivite.  

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Oh, when you receive a cease and desist letter from a Paramount attorney, don't say I didn't warn you. Keep on hurting the community!  

My god! That last sentence inspired such holy fear in me old bones, that I have begun to tremble uncontrollably! My guilt for destroying this community... by donating tons of my time and modelling skills, and giving those without modelling skills an avenue to see their ideas come to fruition... it's crippling me! I will surely burn for my heinous crimes. Help meee! I'm MEEEEEEEEELTING......

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Come on Captain KoraH,

You have been around, you know the score,
Simply put, nothing ever changes here,

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Well I never dreamed my little post about new models coming out would turn into a flame war...


I think the stuff about contracts and everything is off the point. Staryards has a place where you can go and hire a model maker to make a model out of your drawings. That's what P81 and Cleeve are doing. No reason to get upset everyone. Nobody is going to sell any models. Geez... Personally I think it's a nice way to give to the community, not take from them. How many people have sat and stared at their drawings wishing they could make an SFC model out of them, but didn't have the time/ patience/ software/ ect/ ect/ ect to do so? Probly a lot. They are doing us a favor, not an injustice. Let's all cool down now...

TraceyG, I can't wait to do that interview with you. Every time I see posts from you I think, "Wow, that chic has got her [censored] together! I need to get her in the Brig for an interview!" No offence intended. Went to party tonight, drank much beer, maybe not the best time to post on the forums...  



 

[DestinyCalling]

...."you know, I'd give real money if he'd just shut up"    -    Leonard McCoy  /  ST:VI

That goes to everyone who thinks its important to argue about copyright and legal implications of charging for modelling.... Since none of YOUR "intellectual property" is at risk, you ought to leave it up to Paramount to decide whats right or not....

Go thrash it out in court if you like.  This is not the time or place......

BTW... 7000 poly ships will cause havoc on anything but a killer system, and since it isn't likely to be made available for use in SFC you have to ask......

WHAT THE POINT OF ALL THIS PETTY BICKERING

Lets get back to "business" people......    

[ChrisJohnson]

Quote:
"you know, I'd give real money if he'd just shut up"    -    Leonard McCoy  /  ST:VI

That goes to everyone who thinks its important to argue about copyright and legal implications of charging for modelling.... Since none of YOUR "intellectual property" is at risk, you ought to leave it up to Paramount to decide whats right or not....

Go thrash it out in court if you like.  This is not the time or place......

BTW... 7000 poly ships will cause havoc on anything but a killer system, and since it isn't likely to be made available for use in SFC you have to ask......

WHAT THE POINT OF ALL THIS PETTY BICKERING

Lets get back to "business" people......      

It's "I'd give real money if he'd shut up!" - Dr. Leonard McCoy (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country) , DestinyCalling.

Second, 7,000 isn't bad on my lot but I got a killer system.  And you may be right, possibly not gonna be released for SFC. *sigh* Shoulda realized that and prevented this... Though I hate people wanting to go look at stuff and HAVING to register at another forum to do it all due to some scheme to lure them away from these forums... *sigh* Reliant37, I believe I speak for everyone when I say, SHUT UP!!!  And it would be best for you to do such.

[DestinyCalling]

Thanks for pointing out my lack of attention to detail when I quote people....... Cheers

BTW.... The "10 year old windows based game" linked on your site doesn't seem to exist....  

[Captain KoraH]

Hey, it's all good to express your opinion. Just have to be careful not to overdo it. People like to know what others think of stuff, but they don't really care to hear you bitch and whine about it. Reliant needs to get that like I did.  

[**DONOTDELETE**]

How does all this bickering and dredging up of past conflicts help the SFC community?

With the availability of Milkshape 3D v1.6.x for $20 US (30 day free trial) at,

Milkshape 3D link
http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/ms3d/

and its companion Assimsoft (by chrisofborg, Thanks a million chris ) Milkshape 3D Emporter/Importer SFC MOD file Plug-in
(FREE) at,

Assimsoft Milkshape 3D Emporter/Importer SFC MOD Plug-in link
http://www.strategyplanet.com/sfc/modelling.shtml

And one is off to the races,

I cam here two years ago , this did not exist,
Now it does, and everyone can make there modding dreams come true,

People can come together, share, and build a great community,
Or people can burn it down and destroy it,

In the end, its up to everyone here to be a leader  and strive for the former,
We are all equals here with a common love of SFC modding,

I would be the best for the community if people concentrated on creating and sharing,


My two cents,
GeneralWolfe

[sandman69247]

This is all a bunch of hooey!
What Reliant doesn't seem to get is, THEY"RE SELLING THEIR TIME< NOT THE MODEL!!! JEEZ! If I ever get good enough that someone is willing to pay me 5-10 bucks an hour to build ,em a model, (or something like that lol) I'm going to accept. It is my right as a modeler, to sell my services. If someone wants a model of a '66 MUSTANG, candy apple red and loaded for bear, General Motors is not going to cry copyright infringement. Look on TurboSquid and you'll see thousands of models of cars trucks planes spacecraft etc FOR SALE! Why? Because they are professional modelers selling their services, their time and their skill. The model is the result. And yes, Reliant, before you point it out to me, the ST models are in the free section. You can't build the Enterprise and offer it up on you site for sale to the general public, but you can accept a private contract to build it for private use.

I get the feeling that Reliant is one of those who got so bent out of shape when P81 had to stop offering models here for awhile when he started working at a game company. Just chill, dude! If you don't want to pay him for a model, don't! But stop crying that what he's doing is illegal. It isn't. He's a professional modeler offering his services. Paramount, Taldren and Activision don't have a problem with it. Why should you? What, you think the modelers are here for you pleasure? Most of us do it because it's fun, but, yes, I would accept a contract, as would most here I believe. In fact, the proper term just popped into my head...FREELANCER! Not the game. P81 is freelancing his work. It's legal, it's what keeps things going. Many of yesterdays freelancers are todays high end game modelers. Whew, my brain starting to smoke. Not supposed to think this hard on your day off.

The point is, P81 and Cleeve and anyone else, is perfectly within their rights to sell their services. If JOKER decides to sell the model of his truck (think it's joker), he doesn't need to get Peterbuilt's permission (think it's a PB). As long as you are charging for you time spent, your fine.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Here, here!

Well said sandman69247,
I completely agree,

Take care,
GeneralWolfe