Topic: no news is NOT good news...  (Read 9028 times)

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Captain KoraH

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no news is NOT good news...
« on: April 10, 2003, 11:23:51 am »
Aren't there any new models coming out anymore? If I had a download center I'd start releasing mine, maybe someone can donate?

CaptainTombs

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2003, 11:28:41 am »
there are some in the works like Raven's Furious and many people are working on there own pet projects

ChrisJohnson

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2003, 12:36:31 pm »
Pneumonic81's latest work in Frost Works:

http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con1.jpg
http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con2.jpg
http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con3.jpg
http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con4.jpg

He said he was contracted for this.  Who thought greed didn't look this good? j/k   He says the mesh is incomplete, so far standing around 7,000 Polygons.
 IMHO, I still like Khaliban's mesh better though, close to the real thing!

Update - Textures added:

http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con5.jpg
http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con6.jpg
http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con7.jpg
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by ChrisJohnson »

anduril

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2003, 12:59:35 pm »
He was refering to no models coming out here.  As in SFC.

morebs

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2003, 01:25:30 pm »
Quote:

Pneumonic81's latest work in Frost Works:

http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con1.jpg
http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con2.jpg
http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con3.jpg
http://www.frost-works.com/sts/images/con4.jpg

He said he was contracted for this.  Who thought greed didn't look this good? j/k   He says the mesh is incomplete, so far standing around 7,000 Polygons.
 IMHO, I still like Khaliban's mesh better though, close to the real thing!




That mesh looks ok if it had 4000 polies but for 7000 it sucks. Apparently people who release ships not made by p81 do not count as ships.

I bet that p81 ship looks 10 times better rendered in max then it ever will in game.  There is no way in hell it will be worth 200 dollars.  People have released better ships for free. Tired of these dam forums being his personal advertisement. P81 also is nothing more than a dam troll when he is not meshing.

Lt. Cmdr Worf

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2003, 01:53:13 pm »
Who the hell do you think you are Morebs?  P-81 was releasing models while your grandfather was still wearing diapers!! He's a legend around here.  I think that newest Constitution Refit is the best he's ever done.  So before you go off making comments about people, learn who your talking about beforehand.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lt. Cmdr Worf »

Brad Bowermaster

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2003, 01:54:34 pm »
Both him and Cleeve are doing it: http://www.staryards.com/Contracts.htm

anduril

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2003, 02:07:43 pm »
Do not feed the trolls.

Simple thing to remember.
 

morebs

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2003, 02:20:47 pm »
Quote:

Who the hell do you think you are Morebs?  P-81 was releasing models while your grandfather was still wearing diapers!! He's a legend around here.  I think that newest Constitution Refit is the best he's ever done.  So before you go off making comments about people, learn who your talking about beforehand.  




I seen p81s early ships. Not that good. He is getting better though. The reason there are few new ships is because no one cares unless it was made by p81. Now he charges for his ships so unless you rich your stuck using ones made by others.

I think that is fine because many are just as good or better and are free. Too bad p81 has to discourage new modelers. Perhaps he does not want them to cut into his profit margin.  What he does is illegal. He makes money by using paramounts designs and does not share profits with them.
 

Marauth

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2003, 03:54:09 pm »
2 simple words, I wanted to type. Unfortnately I like being a member of these forums so:

F**k you!

Now for the serious part, P81's 'early' ships, like his first Ambassador kitbash for Armada were obviously not very good - no one can just start modelling and be a master at it, it takes time and practice, I'd like to see some of the pieces of art that you've contributed to these games; you haven't so you can't. People around here don't care about P81 ships anymore because thanks to trolls like you he left the forums a long time ago and has never really gotten back into free modelling. His work is his copyright, not yours, not mine, not anyone on these forums, and not Paramounts, as long as he is not making a replica of the CG mesh Paramount has then he's pretty safe from dicks who think people selling their own work is illegal. Further don't even try and suggest that his work once released should be free domain becase any piece of work created by anyone instantly becomes their copyright, no forms need to be filled out, no nothing.

Lastly - get lost you buthole, and come back once you've got a half decent attitude (or not at all if you can't manage that mighty feat of etiquette.)

ChrisJohnson

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2003, 04:02:31 pm »
Ugh... Not again. *sigh* I want to bang my head on the wall over and over and over...

Though I did say that he was, I didn't really care much that he was contracted to do such.  And P81 does a good job with his ships.  I'd like to see his work for release for SFC2 and 3.  I admire his work, and mabye not his ways, but he's still a good person and a talented one at that (as is everyone, especially the modelers here).  One thing I didn't like was P81 and others posting their work on Frost Works and not Taldren too, so I post the WIP pics here to help foil their plan to lure away the plot of Taldreneers in the Taldren forum migrating to Frost Works and not comin' back.  But still, I like them.  I don't want flame wars going on.  So people, stop this now.  This all began because I thought Korah wanted some modeling news so I thought I brought a tiny bit of hope to him.  Turns out I was a bit mistaken as Anduril corrected me, and then the match was lit and thrown into a puddle of Gasoline I spilled.  I'd love it now for someone to extinguish it.

anduril

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2003, 04:06:56 pm »
And people continue feeding the trolls.

Marauth

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2003, 04:10:53 pm »
My apologies Anduril. I have to admit that I was in a bad mood and needed to vent, that troll was the closest thing at hand that wouldn't end in me needing to buy a new keyboard...

morebs

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2003, 04:18:36 pm »
Quote:

Ugh... Not again. *sigh* I want to bang my head on the wall over and over and over...

Though I did say that he was, I didn't really care much that he was contracted to do such.  And P81 does a good job with his ships.  I'd like to see his work for release for SFC2 and 3.  I admire his work, and mabye not his ways, but he's still a good person and a talented one at that (as is everyone, especially the modelers here).  One thing I didn't like was P81 and others posting their work on Frost Works and not Taldren too, so I post the WIP pics here to help foil their plan to lure away the plot of Taldreneers in the Taldren forum migrating to Frost Works and not comin' back.  But still, I like them.  I don't want flame wars going on.  So people, stop this now.  This all began because I thought Korah wanted some modeling news so I thought I brought a tiny bit of hope to him.  Turns out I was a bit mistaken as Anduril corrected me, and then the match was lit and thrown into a puddle of Gasoline I spilled.  I'd love it now for someone to extinguish it.  




I extinguish it here and now. I did express how I felt and did not use any profanity at all. I just notice that there are people that build ships that are better than P81 early ones. All they get for it is flamed because everyone expects professional quality now.  

P81 left these forums not because of trolls but because of money. There will always, always be trolls.   He may have used trolls as an excuse, but the fact is he was one himself from time to time.  He used to be cool, but since everyone started to worship him it went to his head.

Vampire- since P81 now charges 200 bucks for his ships. Maybe you should worry more about p81 driving  other modelers out.  If you want to pay that for a ship its fine with me. I never said anything against you so why you flame me I do not understand. I am sure P81 reads this forum and can type for himself.

Reliant37

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2003, 04:36:35 pm »
Concerning law... in this case copyright law... P81 can design his own ships and sell them for a profit. No problem there. It only becomes a problem when he takes a copyrighted design, in this case the Enterprise from Star Trek (owned by Paramount Pictures), makes a model of it based on that design and which is automatically identified as, in this case, said Enterprise, and then asks people to pay him for it. By doing this, he is making money out of someone else's design, regardless of how much work he has put in it. Without a licence from Paramount to do so, P81 is committing a felony--if indeed he is asking money for his Enterprise model.

As I said, these problems would not exist had he designed something original, which didn't exist yet, and then asked money for it.

An example might clarify this, as some people here obviously have a problem understanding this. Take, for instance, a novel that you've written. It is entirely original: you came up with the story, the characters, and so on. All typed on your trusty computer. Now you want to make money of it, as is your right, by publishing it. You do that, and a few months down the line you happen across a website that is selling your novel. You recognise it instantly. This guy has ripped off your book and is selling it at a profit, without asking you, let alone cutting you in. Enraged, you e-mail him, and he replies dryly that he can do whatever he wants since, after all, he copied the novel by hand, using a quill and writing it on parchment. That was a lot of work, and he deserves to be paid, right? Wrong--it's not called "copyright" for nothing--only the original maker of a work owns the copyright of said work, i.e. the right to publish the thing at a time of his choosing, or to have it published. Authors retain inalienable rights, and no one is allowed to make money off of someone else's work, no matter how much effort went into the copies or derivative works based on the original.  

FPF_TraceyG

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2003, 07:25:35 pm »
My two cents worth...
P81 is under contract, not a license. That is, once he completes his work, he is paid for his labour and the work itself becomes the property of the contractor. Any breach of copyright then, falls on the contractor and its their responsibility to ensure that isnt the case.

On a second note, making models and selling them at a price that exceeds the current price of the game itself by an order of magnitude would not appear to be an economically viable prospect.

On a third note, whilst P81 is at liberty to charge for his labour, the content as has been pointed out is already owned by someone else, to do so in this medium is counterproductive, in my opinion. Why? Because as a community, whether it be mission scripting, ship modelling, fiction writing etc. we do it because we enjoy it, we want to make a contribution to the community that others can share in and enjoy as well, and add value to something which we think is worthwhile. Once this becomes tainted by market economics, it is debased to little more than just another capitalistic venture which eventually becomes only a chase for profit. As an example, look at any world sporting arena, I'll use an Australian example, Aussie Rules Football. It began as a game where clubs got together purely for its enjoyment over 100 years ago. There was absolutely no money involved and was primarily a social activity. Now, it is nothing but big buisiness. Such is the corporate paradigm, profit takes priority, and people are inevitably shunted to a distant second place. I think our values are completely screwed up when money is offered as an excuse for not raising the quality of life. eg. a Shelter for the homeless that is shutdown due to lack of government funding. On the other hand, we cant simply bleed the coffers dry because its the right thing to do either, someone has to pay for it. What's the solution? Simply put, there isn't one whilst market economics and capitalism determine supply of basic services. In order to have rich people, you must have poor people. Altruism is anathema in modern society, and nobody does anything unless they expect a return or profit anymore. I seemed to have digressed slightly here...

In economic terms, to increase the price of a product that has no elasticity, spells the death of that product. In this case, fan created starship models that were previously free to the public and are now being charged for, will simply result in a much lower demand for that product. The end result is that no one gains much benfit at all and becomes a worthless venture. That's not the direction I'd like to see this community head in.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Tracey Greenough »

Azel

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2003, 10:27:20 pm »
I have a ton of meshes
In Milkshape and LW
but they need to be textured and converted...if anyones interested...  

Azel

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2003, 10:41:03 pm »
Hey Capt. Korah...that was for you and your question...of models(new)
Holla... if you want to check some out:)  

Captain KoraH

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2003, 02:46:10 am »
Well I never dreamed my little post about new models coming out would turn into a flame war...


I think the stuff about contracts and everything is off the point. Staryards has a place where you can go and hire a model maker to make a model out of your drawings. That's what P81 and Cleeve are doing. No reason to get upset everyone. Nobody is going to sell any models. Geez... Personally I think it's a nice way to give to the community, not take from them. How many people have sat and stared at their drawings wishing they could make an SFC model out of them, but didn't have the time/ patience/ software/ ect/ ect/ ect to do so? Probly a lot. They are doing us a favor, not an injustice. Let's all cool down now...

TraceyG, I can't wait to do that interview with you. Every time I see posts from you I think, "Wow, that chic has got her [censored] together! I need to get her in the Brig for an interview!" No offence intended. Went to party tonight, drank much beer, maybe not the best time to post on the forums...  



 

Reliant37

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2003, 06:20:37 am »
Quote:

Well I never dreamed my little post about new models coming out would turn into a flame war...




No flaming intended.

Tracey Greenough, it doesn't matter that he's under contract--he's the one offering his services at a fee. Both he and the contractor could be held responsible for copyright violations. More information below...

Quote:

I think the stuff about contracts and everything is off the point. Staryards has a place where you can go and hire a model maker to make a model out of your drawings. That's what P81 and Cleeve are doing. No reason to get upset everyone. Nobody is going to sell any models.




That's not the impression I have. Just a few posts ago, someone said P81 would sell his model of the Enterprise--a design that is OWNED by Paramount Pictures--for $200. Like I said in my earlier post, it's okay to ask money for your services provided you don't do so at the (creative/financial) EXPENSE of someone else. That is, it's okay to ask people to pay you for an original design, but it's ILLEGAL to ask people to pay you for someone else's design WITHOUT asking the original owner's permission. That is an important point, because if Paramount (or Activision) finds out, they might just decide to PULL THE PLUG on Star Trek mods altogether.

Does anyone here remember when Viacom (the company that owns Paramount) went on a killing spree a few years ago, shutting down a plethora of fan sites for copyright violations? The reason for that was the fact that the internet had become bigger than they had ever imagined, with sites offering entire episodes up for download. It was, they argued, hurting them financially. If P81, or anyone else for that matter, starts asking MONEY for designs OWNED by Paramount/Viacom, no matter how much work they put into the models, then Viacom just might decide to start shutting down sites that offer mods for SFC, Bridge Commander, or any other game, on the grounds that asking money for such mods is simply ILLEGAL, and could irreparably damage the mod community.

Quote:

Geez... Personally I think it's a nice way to give to the community, not take from them.




Like I said, if Paramount/Viacom/Activision finds out that stuff like this is happening, they'll be shutting down sites in no time.

Quote:

How many people have sat and stared at their drawings wishing they could make an SFC model out of them, but didn't have the time/ patience/ software/ ect/ ect/ ect to do so? Probly a lot. They are doing us a favor, not an injustice. Let's all cool down now...




Original models: YES. Copyrighted models (i.e. everything you see on TV, in official games, in the movies, the comic books, and so on): NO, that would be ILLEGAL.

Does everyone finally understand why asking money for an unlicenced, unauthorised Enterprise model is illegal and could HURT the community?  

anduril

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2003, 07:24:31 am »
I guess what is really understood is that this dead horse is nothing but a greasy spot on the sidewalk with a bunch of old men stomping around on top of it.

This arguement has been brought up so many times it's not even funny.  Save it for the off topic or general forum.


Where is Mackie with one of his Lamer alerts when you need him?

Hig Hurtenflurst

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2003, 07:35:50 am »
I think the important thing people need to focus on is.......  P81 IS MAKING A NEW ENTERPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WOO HOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Reliant37

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2003, 10:34:14 am »
Quote:

I guess what is really understood is that this dead horse is nothing but a greasy spot on the sidewalk with a bunch of old men stomping around on top of it.

This arguement has been brought up so many times it's not even funny.  Save it for the off topic or general forum.

Where is Mackie with one of his Lamer alerts when you need him?  




Gee... how... nice. It was obviously worth repeating, wasn't it?  

Captain KoraH

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2003, 10:37:36 am »
Uhhh... anyone who is unclear about what Cleeve is doing needs to go to his website. Anyone who isn't sure I know what I'm talking about obviously hasn't see the site in a while. Take a minute, check it out. It's perfectly harmless.

As for copyrights, as many of you know I'm one of the community's most outspoken on this topic. There is no set law governing SFC models. There likely never will be. It's all open to your own personal interpretation of the law until it goes to court and a judge decides what the law means. That's the way our system works. Here is what I beleive:

A model maker owns his work, no matter what it's a likeness of. Just because someone makes a statue of President Bush doesn't mean President Bush has any claim of ownership on it. SFC models are a work of  art, which the artist owns.

While Taldren (or Activision possibly) owns the .mod model format, they have given defacto permission for the public at large to use this format to make fan based models. That means ANY fan based models. The fact that they allow us to make them, and even create a forum for us to talk about them, legitimizes the practice sufficiently to hold up in court.

Charging money for a work of art is perfectly legal. How do you think artists make a living? What's different between a painting of the Enterprise and a 3D model of it? Nothing as far as the law is concerned. And it's perfectly legal to paint a picture of the Enterprise, isn't it.

Everyone is free to disagree with me, but they will be wrong.  


Hey, it's all good, we're all friends here. If P81 wants to sell a model so what?  There's no law against it. And you don't have to buy it!

This post dedicated to Anduril and Cleeve, my favorite hypocrites  

Reliant37

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2003, 11:57:13 am »
Quote:

As for copyrights, as many of you know I'm one of the community's most outspoken on this topic. There is no set law governing SFC models.




Yes there is: copyright laws apply to everything that isn't (or can't be) patented. Copyright doesn't have to be registered--it's a natural law. I.e. as soon as you make something, you own the copyright. However, there are exceptions, for example, when you create a DERIVATIVE work, i.e. something based on someone else's stuff that looks enough like that other person's stuff to be considered a violation of that person (the original maker)'s copyright. In other words, as I've said twice now, creating a SFC model of the STARSHIP ENTERPRISE, which is a design OWNED by Paramount, is ILLEGAL.

I'll explain it even further, since obviously the message is not coming across (and in case you're wondering, I took and PASSED courses in copyright and intellectual property law, so I have some knowledge concerning the field).

Quote:

There likely never will be. It's all open to your own personal interpretation of the law until it goes to court and a judge decides what the law means. That's the way our system works.




No, it doesn't work like that. There are laws. These may be tested in court, but most of them stand until a judge decides otherwise--not the other way around (which is what you're claiming). Copyright law is pretty old, so any loopholes you think you might have discovered have long since been sealed. I'll deal with each one of your points in turn.

Quote:

A model maker owns his work, no matter what it's a likeness of.




Wrong. If you COPY something that is owned by someone else, it infringes on that person's copyright. Copyright is an inalienable RIGHT. It can't be bought or sold--and it is up to the owner to pursue those violations if he is to retain the copyright of said works. Paramount lets most things slide--no sites have been closed down in some time now. However, if you start asking money for your model of the USS Enterprise, then that hurts Paramount financially, and they'll claim their copyright is violated by you and will send an army of lawyers out to crush you. Copyright means: the right of the ORIGINAL MAKER or OWNER OF THE WORK to publish and multiply the work at a time of his/her/their choosing in a medium of his/her/their choosing. Anything else is illegal, such as what P81 is apparently doing.

Quote:

Just because someone makes a statue of President Bush doesn't mean President Bush has any claim of ownership on it.




No, but you can't make a statue of Bush and sell it for a profit WITHOUT asking his permission first. This doesn't relate so much to copyright law, but to portrait and private law. For example, if someone takes your picture while you're drinking a bottle of Coca-Cola, and then uses that picture in an advertisement, without asking your permission or paying you, then you can sue him for violating your privacy.

Quote:

SFC models are a work of  art, which the artist owns.




Derivative works cannot legally be copyrighted, since they are derivative (copies) of an original work that is owned by someone else. As I said before, NO MATTER the amount of work YOU put into creating a good COPY of the USS Enterprise, it would still be ILLEGAL for you to sell it WITHOUT asking permission from the COPYRIGHT HOLDER, i.e. Paramount. Just imagine someone else ripping off something original that you once made and then selling it for a profit WITHOUT asking your permission. I imagine you would be pissed off, wouldn't you?

Quote:

While Taldren (or Activision possibly) owns the .mod model format, they have given defacto permission for the public at large to use this format to make fan based models. That means ANY fan based models. The fact that they allow us to make them, and even create a forum for us to talk about them, legitimizes the practice sufficiently to hold up in court.




But not the selling of such .MODs at a profit, particularly when it concerns a copyrighted design.

Quote:

Charging money for a work of art is perfectly legal.




Depends; it's ILLEGAL when it's a derived work (copy) that wasn't authorised or licenced by the original copyright holder, as I have said THREE TIMES now.

Quote:

How do you think artists make a living?




By creating ORIGINAL artwork and selling THAT. Not by creating DUPLICATES/COPIES/DERIVATIVE works and selling those at a profit WITHOUT asking the copyright holder for permission. That isn't hard to understand, is it?

Quote:

What's different between a painting of the Enterprise and a 3D model of it? Nothing as far as the law is concerned. And it's perfectly legal to paint a picture of the Enterprise, isn't it.




BUT IT WOULDN'T BE LEGAL IF YOU SOLD THAT PAINTING WITHOUT ASKING PERMISSION FROM THE ORIGINAL COPYRIGHT HOLDER, which is what this debate was about on the previous page and which is something I've tried explaining now THREE TIMES. I really don't see how I could make this any more clear than this.
 
Quote:

Hey, it's all good, we're all friends here. If P81 wants to sell a model so what?  There's no law against it.




It is a MODEL of the ENTERPRISE that is OWNED by PARAMOUNT and he has NO PERMISSION from said copyright holder--PARAMOUNT--to sell it, MAKING IT ILLEGAL. How do I know this? It's simple really: THERE IS A LAW AGAINST IT.

Sheesh...  

DestinyCalling

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2003, 12:25:59 pm »
..... my head hurts now.!!!!!!....

So P81 and Cleeve are selling SFC models...........

SO WHAT..!!!!!

Anyone stupid enough to fork out $200 for a 3d model has clearly lost the plot......

I hope they get sued.....!!!!!  

Captain KoraH

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2003, 10:51:36 pm »
Wow. I can't say I even read the whole of that lengthy reply. I started to, but then I thought... who cares?


Not me.





 

Anthony_Scott

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2003, 12:30:36 am »
So  what if P-81 is finally getting compensated for his superb work after all this time? Looking at his Norway class in my model viewer I can see why! I wish him the best in his new endeavor!

I am perhaps alone in thinking this way but if you have the skills t put out models like Zombie, Darkdrone, and Pata then you should be compensated finally!

 

Cleeve

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2003, 01:44:05 am »
Reliant37:
Quote:

 I took and PASSED courses in copyright and intellectual property law, so I have some knowledge concerning the field).




Well then Reliant, you know that... Legal or illegal... the onus is on Paramount to prosecute those who they fell have infringed. Not, er... you.

And you also know that to recieve damages from a modeller they would have to prove that a) the modeller had damaged their reputation or b) lost them revenue.

We can argue theory until the cows come home. But Paramount's legal team has better things to do than sue fan artists for a couple hundred bucks.
In fact, during the fan-site internet fiasco they were involved in some years back, they have learned that fan artists and sites help their franchise, NOT hurt it.
And prosecuting their loyal fans DEFINITELY hurts it.

You see, Paramount now understands the symbiotic relationship they have with their fans. This is a mutually beneficial thing. Hence, the fans have been left alone. They have lived long and prospered.

You can rant and rave and try to scare people all you want, but if Paramount's legal team does not prosecute, this is all theoretical.   If you have knowledge in the field as you claim, you know all this, right?

And you would also know that the first step in a copyright suit is a simple letter asking the infringer to cease and decist, don't you? Not wholesale legal warfare and fan-site destruction.
Interesting, because... I haven't seen one of those letters yet. Nor do I know anyone who has.

That will be enough with the whiney annihilist melodrama, thank you very much...

P.S. KORAH IS DA MAN!!!  
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Cleeve »

Reliant37

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Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2003, 06:10:46 am »
See below...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2003, 06:23:13 am by Reliant37 »

Reliant37

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2003, 06:22:33 am »
Quote:

Well then Reliant, you know that... Legal or illegal... the onus is on Paramount to prosecute those who they fell have infringed. Not, er... you.




I said that. Then again, you probably think it's okay to rob people, too, as long as the police doesn't catch you (see below).

Quote:

And you also know that to recieve damages from a modeller they would have to prove that a) the modeller had damaged their reputation or b) lost them revenue.




No, they NEED to pursue their copyright if they are to retain it. Nowadays, they're a bit more lenient. Fan sites are okay, but NOT if they start offering up entire episodes, for example, or try to make a fast buck on the Star Trek name. Or didn't you notice that download sites that offer episodes are closed pretty fast, or at least have to remove the offending material? If you start asking money for models, they WILL be hurt financially. That may damage the modding community--which was my point all along.

Then again, if you KNOW what you're doing is WRONG, why do it? Because it's OKAY as long as no one catches you? This would be the same as saying: well, getting arrested and locked up for robbing a bank is nice in THEORY, but they'll have to catch me first. Doesn't it OCCUR to you, or anyone else, that it is WRONG to effectively STEAL from Paramount and make a fast buck off of their designs? If you want to earn money, go do something original--THEN you're free to ask whatever you want.

Maybe someone will then come and STEAL your design, thinking it's okay if he can get away with it. Morality be damned!

Quote:

We can argue theory until the cows come home. But Paramount's legal team has better things to do than sue fan artists for a couple hundred bucks.




Obviously, you are completely unaware of the legal action Paramount has taken against, for example, fans that publish books that Paramount feels infringes on their copyright (there was a case some time ago, where a fan published a book on how Trek had influenced his life--Paramount deemed it a violation since the book offered synopses of episodes, and Paramount deemed that an infringement on their rights). But please, feel free to keep your head in the sand.

Quote:

In fact, during the fan-site internet fiasco they were involved in some years back, they have learned that fan artists and sites help their franchise, NOT hurt it.




Not ALL sites, but some did. Check the history of that whole "fiasco" if you will.

Quote:

And prosecuting their loyal fans DEFINITELY hurts it.




Prosecuting fans if you have a LEGAL reason won't hurt them. Most fans are blissfully unaware about copyright law...

Quote:

You can rant and rave and try to scare people all you want, but if Paramount's legal team does not prosecute, this is all theoretical.   If you have knowledge in the field as you claim, you know all this, right?




It isn't THEORETICAL, it's LAW. There are examples to prove my case. But then again, you would argue it's all theoretical, right?

Quote:

And you would also know that the first step in a copyright suit is a simple letter asking the infringer to cease and decist, don't you?




Yes, I do. Does it make any difference? The end result is the same: stuff gets removed, and it puts fans into a bad light (not that paramount CARES about the fans, of course).

Quote:

Not wholesale legal warfare and fan-site destruction.




So, now you're saying that these things DIDN'T occur? I'd point out the examples, but why bother? You're obviously not going to listen, right?

Quote:

Interesting, because... I haven't seen one of those letters yet. Nor do I know anyone who has.




That's because there are only two or three people around here who ask to be payed for their modelling of COPYRIGHTED designs? If I recall correctly, you were one of them.

Quote:

That will be enough with the whiney annihilist melodrama, thank you very much...




So much for intelligent debate. I always like it when people start insulting others. Makes it so mature. Ah well. I'll be off then. I really wanted to enjoy my time here, but obviously you're not supposed to.

Oh, when you receive a cease and desist letter from a Paramount attorney, don't say I didn't warn you. Keep on hurting the community!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Reliant37 »

Cleeve

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2003, 08:42:32 am »
Sweet jesus man, you are naive.

Quote:

Then again, if you KNOW what you're doing is WRONG, why do it? Because it's OKAY as long as no one catches you?




Actually, moral policeman Reliant, I don't have a moral hang up with producing work for personal use, like you do. You see, me producing a model for someone has absolutely no way of hurtring Paramount. Me turning someones wished-for ship design into reality, wether it be their own design or official,  to play in a game or make screenshots of, is a good thing. It is a route that has been previously unavailable to people who do not have modelling skills themselves. I'd love to do it for free, but there's that bit about working for fair exchange and all. I don't have an infinite amount of hours to donate to the star trek world, I've already gave quite a bit, thanks. And I will continue to give in the future.
You see, if the model downloads were offered to the public at a cost per download, I think you might have a point. As it is, models created are for private use exclusively, or if they are offered to the public it is for *free*. As such, The funds modellers recieve are for our manhours, not the model distribution, see? That is an important legal distinction. You should pay attention to that, because it's key. Right, legal beagle?

I can't think of why you'd want to deprive people of an avenue like this. Then again, I don't creep around on forums looking for potential moral outrages.


Quote:

Obviously, you are completely unaware of the legal action Paramount has taken against, for example, fans that publish books that Paramount feels infringes on their copyright (there was a case some time ago, where a fan published a book on how Trek had influenced his life--Paramount deemed it a violation since the book offered synopses of episodes, and Paramount deemed that an infringement on their rights). But please, feel free to keep your head in the sand.




Blah blah blah. We all know they act in a legal fashon when they need to.
What we're disagreeing on here is wether they would percieve they need to. I don't think they will, as I don't see the moral dillemma you describe.
What we also know is that selling a book en masse or featuring a spaceship on a TV show for large amounts of cash is not the legal equivalent of turning someone's design into a reality for personal use or free distribution. Quite the opposite, especially when the defacto stance has been to allow modelling of canon ships for use in games for the past 3 years or so.
We also know that their current policy is hands off. Irrelevant details and are of no interest to me. I wonder why you include them?


Quote:

It isn't THEORETICAL, it's LAW. There are examples to prove my case. But then again, you would argue it's all theoretical, right?




Oh god. Civil law doesn't work like that. We're not talking crimminal law here. Unlike Criminal law, The onus is on the plantiff to bring the issue to the court's attention if they think it is improper. And if they don't think it's improper, a modeller doesent get a cease-and-decist letter.
The onus is NOT on *YOU*. Because you cannot speak for them. Because you are not their lawyer, see? If you were, you would be fired.


Quote:

Not wholesale legal warfare and fan-site destruction.



Quote:

So, now you're saying that these things DIDN'T occur? I'd point out the examples, but why bother? You're obviously not going to listen, right?




No, my point is that it is unlikely for it to occur again because a lesson is learned. (Well, some people learn).


Quote:

That's because there are only two or three people around here who ask to be payed for their modelling of COPYRIGHTED designs? If I recall correctly, you were one of them.




Indeed. I encourage anyone with a ship design they would like to see made go to www.STARYARDS.com and employ our premium modelling services for all types of spaceships, Star Wars, Star Trek, and custom designs!!! All are possible with our talented team of modellers! [/end of plug]


Quote:

So much for intelligent debate. I always like it when people start insulting others. Makes it so mature. Ah well. I'll be off then. I really wanted to enjoy my time here, but obviously you're not supposed to.




Actually, I am deriving a hefty chunk of amusement from your naivite.  


Quote:

Oh, when you receive a cease and desist letter from a Paramount attorney, don't say I didn't warn you. Keep on hurting the community!  




My god! That last sentence inspired such holy fear in me old bones, that I have begun to tremble uncontrollably! My guilt for destroying this community... by donating tons of my time and modelling skills, and giving those without modelling skills an avenue to see their ideas come to fruition... it's crippling me! I will surely burn for my heinous crimes. Help meee! I'm MEEEEEEEEELTING......

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Cleeve »

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2003, 10:14:35 am »
Come on Captain KoraH,

You have been around, you know the score,
Simply put, nothing ever changes here,




Quote:

Well I never dreamed my little post about new models coming out would turn into a flame war...


I think the stuff about contracts and everything is off the point. Staryards has a place where you can go and hire a model maker to make a model out of your drawings. That's what P81 and Cleeve are doing. No reason to get upset everyone. Nobody is going to sell any models. Geez... Personally I think it's a nice way to give to the community, not take from them. How many people have sat and stared at their drawings wishing they could make an SFC model out of them, but didn't have the time/ patience/ software/ ect/ ect/ ect to do so? Probly a lot. They are doing us a favor, not an injustice. Let's all cool down now...

TraceyG, I can't wait to do that interview with you. Every time I see posts from you I think, "Wow, that chic has got her [censored] together! I need to get her in the Brig for an interview!" No offence intended. Went to party tonight, drank much beer, maybe not the best time to post on the forums...  



 



DestinyCalling

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2003, 10:41:09 am »
...."you know, I'd give real money if he'd just shut up"    -    Leonard McCoy  /  ST:VI

That goes to everyone who thinks its important to argue about copyright and legal implications of charging for modelling.... Since none of YOUR "intellectual property" is at risk, you ought to leave it up to Paramount to decide whats right or not....

Go thrash it out in court if you like.  This is not the time or place......

BTW... 7000 poly ships will cause havoc on anything but a killer system, and since it isn't likely to be made available for use in SFC you have to ask......

WHAT THE POINT OF ALL THIS PETTY BICKERING

Lets get back to "business" people......    

ChrisJohnson

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2003, 11:27:31 am »
Quote:

"you know, I'd give real money if he'd just shut up"    -    Leonard McCoy  /  ST:VI

That goes to everyone who thinks its important to argue about copyright and legal implications of charging for modelling.... Since none of YOUR "intellectual property" is at risk, you ought to leave it up to Paramount to decide whats right or not....

Go thrash it out in court if you like.  This is not the time or place......

BTW... 7000 poly ships will cause havoc on anything but a killer system, and since it isn't likely to be made available for use in SFC you have to ask......

WHAT THE POINT OF ALL THIS PETTY BICKERING

Lets get back to "business" people......      




It's "I'd give real money if he'd shut up!" - Dr. Leonard McCoy (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country) , DestinyCalling.

Second, 7,000 isn't bad on my lot but I got a killer system.  And you may be right, possibly not gonna be released for SFC. *sigh* Shoulda realized that and prevented this... Though I hate people wanting to go look at stuff and HAVING to register at another forum to do it all due to some scheme to lure them away from these forums... *sigh* Reliant37, I believe I speak for everyone when I say, SHUT UP!!!  And it would be best for you to do such.

DestinyCalling

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2003, 11:44:58 am »
Thanks for pointing out my lack of attention to detail when I quote people....... Cheers

BTW.... The "10 year old windows based game" linked on your site doesn't seem to exist....  

Captain KoraH

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2003, 11:57:21 am »
Hey, it's all good to express your opinion. Just have to be careful not to overdo it. People like to know what others think of stuff, but they don't really care to hear you bitch and whine about it. Reliant needs to get that like I did.  

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2003, 12:24:38 pm »
How does all this bickering and dredging up of past conflicts help the SFC community?

With the availability of Milkshape 3D v1.6.x for $20 US (30 day free trial) at,

Milkshape 3D link
http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/ms3d/

and its companion Assimsoft (by chrisofborg, Thanks a million chris ) Milkshape 3D Emporter/Importer SFC MOD file Plug-in
(FREE) at,

Assimsoft Milkshape 3D Emporter/Importer SFC MOD Plug-in link
http://www.strategyplanet.com/sfc/modelling.shtml

And one is off to the races,

I cam here two years ago , this did not exist,
Now it does, and everyone can make there modding dreams come true,

People can come together, share, and build a great community,
Or people can burn it down and destroy it,

In the end, its up to everyone here to be a leader  and strive for the former,
We are all equals here with a common love of SFC modding,

I would be the best for the community if people concentrated on creating and sharing,


My two cents,
GeneralWolfe

sandman69247

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2003, 01:53:12 pm »
This is all a bunch of hooey!
What Reliant doesn't seem to get is, THEY"RE SELLING THEIR TIME< NOT THE MODEL!!! JEEZ! If I ever get good enough that someone is willing to pay me 5-10 bucks an hour to build ,em a model, (or something like that lol) I'm going to accept. It is my right as a modeler, to sell my services. If someone wants a model of a '66 MUSTANG, candy apple red and loaded for bear, General Motors is not going to cry copyright infringement. Look on TurboSquid and you'll see thousands of models of cars trucks planes spacecraft etc FOR SALE! Why? Because they are professional modelers selling their services, their time and their skill. The model is the result. And yes, Reliant, before you point it out to me, the ST models are in the free section. You can't build the Enterprise and offer it up on you site for sale to the general public, but you can accept a private contract to build it for private use.

I get the feeling that Reliant is one of those who got so bent out of shape when P81 had to stop offering models here for awhile when he started working at a game company. Just chill, dude! If you don't want to pay him for a model, don't! But stop crying that what he's doing is illegal. It isn't. He's a professional modeler offering his services. Paramount, Taldren and Activision don't have a problem with it. Why should you? What, you think the modelers are here for you pleasure? Most of us do it because it's fun, but, yes, I would accept a contract, as would most here I believe. In fact, the proper term just popped into my head...FREELANCER! Not the game. P81 is freelancing his work. It's legal, it's what keeps things going. Many of yesterdays freelancers are todays high end game modelers. Whew, my brain starting to smoke. Not supposed to think this hard on your day off.

The point is, P81 and Cleeve and anyone else, is perfectly within their rights to sell their services. If JOKER decides to sell the model of his truck (think it's joker), he doesn't need to get Peterbuilt's permission (think it's a PB). As long as you are charging for you time spent, your fine.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by sandman69247 »

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2003, 02:12:59 pm »
Here, here!

Well said sandman69247,
I completely agree,

Take care,
GeneralWolfe
 

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2003, 02:37:29 pm »
Heh.....hey I got some gas to throw on this pire....

Dont EVER mistake Paramounts gracious attitude tword fan art as an industry standard....

To those who think they can use anyones intellectual property for any reason they see fit I have a challenge for you....

Make a 3D mesh of Mickey Mouse and try and sell it on E-bay...

Disney corp is well known to be THE most aggressive company when protecting its IP.......and they will be all over your ass....whether you claim you only charging your "labor" or not...

That being said.....IMHO ..anyone who would pay anything for a game model is a fool....  

Anthony_Scott

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2003, 09:07:46 pm »
You tell him, Cleeve! I have only been part of this community for a short time but I can already see those who have selflessly shared their talents and resources to making the game and model collections far better than the stock ships in the playability. I also can read the jelousy thinly disquised as "legal opinion" and also read alot of words by the same type of person that thinks they know better than the rest of us.
Without you and other unselfish artists who tak time from your busy lives to advise, tutor, and create such beautiful models which ALWAYS contain disclaimers and proper copyright notices our gameplay would still have to put up with models that look like something my nephew could do in 5 minutes. Without the likes of you and your work, I would hide my ship models in my HD. In my own small way I thank you and the other artists.
If you think that you can do better, then put your skills to the test and MAKE something! I am taking a course in graphic design for that very reason and have downloaded all available tutorials and one day will do a ship of my own.

heh, sorry for the long post but this whole thing has annoyed me more than any other topic because I see good people being bashed for no better reason than being naive and opionated enough to know something but certainly not smart or knowledgeable enough to say anything useful, like those "experts" who predicted such dire consequences in one endeavour or another in the hopes that they are right.

Keep up the good work, Cleeve and others and pay no attention to upstarts.

Cleeve

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2003, 03:39:28 pm »
For those of you who have put in a kind word, I thank you for the show of solidarity.

Be well,
 

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2003, 03:50:28 pm »
Hello Cleeve,

Best wishes,
Thanks a million for your one-of-kind STARYARDS
http://www.staryards.com/
"All Roads lead to Cleeves' STARYARDS!"

Frankly, I don't know why you didn't do the "freelance" starship building sooner,
Your stuff is extraordinarly professional my friend,

Thanks alot for getting me into 3D Modding,
You da man!


Take care,
GeneralWolfe


Quote:

For those of you who have put in a kind word, I thank you for the show of solidarity.

Be well,
 


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by GeneralWolfe »

Atrahasis

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2003, 04:38:00 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Ugh... Not again. *sigh* I want to bang my head on the wall over and over and over...

Though I did say that he was, I didn't really care much that he was contracted to do such.  And P81 does a good job with his ships.  I'd like to see his work for release for SFC2 and 3.  I admire his work, and mabye not his ways, but he's still a good person and a talented one at that (as is everyone, especially the modelers here).  One thing I didn't like was P81 and others posting their work on Frost Works and not Taldren too, so I post the WIP pics here to help foil their plan to lure away the plot of Taldreneers in the Taldren forum migrating to Frost Works and not comin' back.  But still, I like them.  I don't want flame wars going on.  So people, stop this now.  This all began because I thought Korah wanted some modeling news so I thought I brought a tiny bit of hope to him.  Turns out I was a bit mistaken as Anduril corrected me, and then the match was lit and thrown into a puddle of Gasoline I spilled.  I'd love it now for someone to extinguish it.  




I extinguish it here and now. I did express how I felt and did not use any profanity at all. I just notice that there are people that build ships that are better than P81 early ones. All they get for it is flamed because everyone expects professional quality now.  

P81 left these forums not because of trolls but because of money. There will always, always be trolls.   He may have used trolls as an excuse, but the fact is he was one himself from time to time.  He used to be cool, but since everyone started to worship him it went to his head.

Vampire- since P81 now charges 200 bucks for his ships. Maybe you should worry more about p81 driving  other modelers out.  If you want to pay that for a ship its fine with me. I never said anything against you so why you flame me I do not understand. I am sure P81 reads this forum and can type for himself.  




James Formo, wil you ever get a life?

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2003, 08:13:52 am »
Atrahasis,

Why not try letting people live in peace,
'Tis a novel concept no?

Quote:



<snip>
James Formo, wil you ever get a life?  



FPF_TraceyG

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2003, 08:50:09 am »
By the way, www.staryards.com has always been one of my favorite ship model sites, and I missed it sorely when it wasnt online. I check staryards regularly for updates and new models. Many thanks, Cleeve.

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2003, 09:02:04 am »
Here, here!

My sentiments exactly,

Thanks Cleeve,

Take care,
GeneralWolfe


Quote:

By the way, www.staryards.com has always been one of my favorite ship model sites, and I missed it sorely when it wasnt online. I check staryards regularly for updates and new models. Many thanks, Cleeve.  


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by GeneralWolfe »

Raven Night

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2003, 10:17:21 am »
Well well, looks like you guys have been busy...............

Why do people take so much offense to someone selling thier models? I pay to have all of my models made........ALL OF THEM. I design them, I pay for someone to build them. And mods. And missions. Nightsoft has invested over 1500 dollars in this community, as well as others connected to Star Trek to date. I do not see how this hurts the community. We buy the models, mods, missions, and release them for free. We have them made exactly to our specifications, and release them as public property to be kitbashed by anyone that desires to do so.

I have found it amusing that some have told me that what I do is illegal. We have gone through great pains to make sure we are insulated from legal action, so I can assure everyone what we do is not violating ANY copyright laws.

That said, do we buy or sanction canon models? No. Those designs are protected by three specific copyrights.........a Design copyright, Concept copyright, and here is the kicker.............an Intellectual copyright.

Can Paramount pull the plug on any design based on these copyrights? Yes. Will they? Unlikely.

Three no no's that will get you in trouble.

Sell the models on the same site you sell pornography
Claim that you are an official representative of the owner or you have permission to make it
Make a HUGE amount................one worthy notice, like more than 30,000 a year.

Any of the three would get thier attention.

I don't see how the likes of Cleeve or P-81 hurt or help the community in any non-repairable way. They are both fantastic past, present and future contributers to the community, and I do not see the harm in what they are doing. The community will be here long after they are just a memory.

At one time SFC modding revolved around three sites...........Alpha Quadrant, SFBtoSFC and NEWSHIPS...........my original site. Well, I left, BBarr dropped out and Cromwell became busy. Did the community die? No...............

It thrived.

The likes of APOC, Chris Jones Mods, Fleetdock13, Omega Staryards.........do I need to go on? We left, others came in to fill the void.

Then some of them left...........everyone said SFC would die without APOC..........again, it survived. And it will survive this.

Just let them do what they want. There will be plenty giving away mods, and there are lot's of Cleeves and P-81's on the horizon. Be calm, have fun, and most of all...............

........stay tuned.

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2003, 10:33:21 am »
Hello Raven Night,


I completely agree with yaa,


I would also like to thank you, Raven Night, and the NighSoft organisation for all the priceless, and generous serivices and contributions that have been made to the entire SFC community,
They are very much appreciated by all here


Quote:



<snip>

Just let them do what they want. There will be plenty giving away mods, and there are lot's of Cleeves and P-81's on the horizon. Be calm, have fun, and most of all...............

........stay tuned.  




Your USS Furious should be born soon,
I can't wait to see any in-game jpgs' that you may post!


Take care, my friend,
GeneralWolfe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by GeneralWolfe »

Chris Jones

  • Guest
Modeling is not easy and requires attention to detail
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2003, 08:50:08 pm »
I support Rick, Cleeve, and the gang. If you have ever seen a mesh in Max or Milkshape then you know how much patience and time goes into a model. They all have made my gaming much more enjoyable, for about 3 years now. I can make a square, lol. Seriously, Rick and Cleeve made some models for OP. Damn good ones, I thought. I am sure they have thought out any legal ramifications, if any, and I wish them all the best in thier quest for the $.  If I can help you guys in any way, let me know.

A plug for LB as well. I have put some of his work on sfc3files, and he's getting mega downloads and awesome comments.  I consider Rick, Cleeve, LB the Vets of SFC.

This inspires me to start a modeler appreciation thread. Good idea, Chris!

L_B

  • Guest
Re: So we are now enemies of the state.....
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2003, 09:25:41 pm »
Well, thats fine and dandy that some of you feel this way. I believe that if you are this passionate about the selling of models, so much so as to take an innocent thread and turn it into a flame war, then maybe you should go work at Paramount's legal department. I bet they are just LOOKING for you. Yes its true, that I have joined the team at www.staryards.com  Cleeve welcomed me with open arms and a smile on his face. why? because he knows that I am an honest to God hard worker who will give upo the time for the greater good. Like for www.staryards.com , this is Cleeves "greater good" for the people who love Star Trek. www.staryards.com is a place to go to see your dream come to a reality. www.staryards.com is an adventure of both the mind, and of the soul,  people can take their designs to us that they have poured their souls and hearts into and for a small fee to cover the time we spend making them (our free time), they can have what they have always wanted. I think that what we are doing at www.staryards.com is nothing short of brilliant. and not to mention affordable. try going to a cgi company and see how much they charge you for a model, I gaurantee its alot more than we ask.

I honestly dont see the problem, we have spent years tuning our skills at this, and why shouldnt our time be worth something? we are spending our free time that we could be spending with our families to offer this service at www.staryards.com

is it so wrong to make some extra money with my skills that i may be able to provide better for my family? Or for Rick to? or for Cleeve to? what some people fail to realise is that these are not replicas of Paramounts ships, also, how can we be hurting Paramount? also, how are we financially hurting them by selling our time to make the models that they themselves dont even sell? I have never seen Paramount sell a CG model. so there is no money being taken out of their pockets right?

anyway, what I am trying to say is that at www.staryards.com we simply charge for our time to private contractees, nothing more, nothing less. and as many people that have businesses of their own have said..."time is money"

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by L_B »

FPF_TraceyG

  • Guest
Re: Lets get back to real modelling business
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2003, 11:56:28 pm »
Just to finish off something I began earlier, and following up on something somebody else.
If someone offers a 'service' and is 'contracted' to provide that service, which upon completion they are paid for their labour costs, and, the product of that service becomes the property of the contarctor, AND, the contractor then chooses to distribute that product for no profit at all ( from what I can gather, this is the case with www.staryards.com ), then neither is this harmful or damaging to the community (in fact, it does the community a great service), nor does it breach any copyright laws (as no money is actually made). Furthermore, it improves the quality of the fan-based material and I think we should all be thanking those who spend their time and efforts to promote a product which ultimately can only enhance the playing experience. I can find no where on www.staryards.com where you have to pay to download a ship model, which renders any argument about selling models academic.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Tracey Greenough »

sandman69247

  • Guest
Re: So we are now enemies of the state.....
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2003, 12:32:29 am »
Well, if I'm an enemy of the state, it's pretty sad. I spent 2 years in the Army, got hurt and medically discharged (without any pension or money as they said it was a problem I had before enlisting), and if I want to sell my services and skills (not that I'm good enough yet), then by God, that's what I'm going to do.

If you don't want to pay for a model to put in the game, then it's real simple...DON'T! This is all such a bunch of bullsh*t! Get over it already! There are plenty of modelers here that offer their models for free, that you shouldn't have any trouble finding what you want. If the quality isn't to your liking, then tough. The modelers who are at the stage of their work that they are in demand are the ones you are bitching about selling their work. You want their stuff, then pay 'em. SIMPLE!!

God, please save us from FOOLS!

As Kid Rock sings; "They say I'm cocky and I say what? It aint braggin' if you do it and you back it up!" And, by God, Cleeve, LB and P81 definitely back it up.

 

 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2003, 12:35:35 am by sandman69247 »

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: So we are now enemies of the state.....
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2003, 08:33:56 am »
Hello sandman69247,

"Enemy-of-the-state" you?
Haa,
Never,
You are one of the kindest, most open and honest people here, my friend.
The above title "Tis my baliwicke"

Anyways, in my opinion, what anyone does here is their own business,
P81, Cleeve, and -LB- are only helping the SFC community, and I support them.


Take care,
GeneralWolfe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by GeneralWolfe »

James Formo

  • Guest
Re: my 2 cents
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2003, 10:56:46 am »
not ssure where the enimies of the state came from. I have not read all 55 posts but I gather that this thread is about charging for models. So far not a problem. I just worry about slippery slope. Where if an elite modelers models are worth say 100 dollars. Could be that soon there are a dozen modelers charging. Hmm maybe mine are worth 5 dollars then.

Then soon the forum is nothing more then spam with links to pay sites.

The game might not be a game any more but just a business. Sure it already is a business for Taldren. That has to be but SFC popularity may be its own undoing.

I kinda believe that my view will not be popular. But if I was here because of my popularity I would have left 6 months ago.

 

Captain KoraH

  • Guest
Re: Lets get back to real modelling business
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2003, 12:04:44 pm »
I'm cooincidentally making a habit of following Tracey around the forums

But I have to say that she has hit on a good point here, I think Cleeve and the gang at www.staryards.com should post the models they make on the site for all to enjoy. While some models are undoubtedly a matter of the originator's taste, I'm sure that with the skills that are at work there, any model they make for SFC will be awesome. I say this with total disreagrd for all the other crap that my thread here has spawned. I just think those models they make will be really awesome and I'd like to see them on the site.  

Cleeve

  • Guest
Re: my 2 cents
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2003, 12:13:01 pm »
Quote:

Then soon the forum is nothing more then spam with links to pay sites.

I kinda believe that my view will not be popular. But if I was here because of my popularity I would have left 6 months ago.
 




Hi James,

First off, I don't think anybody is going to consider you less popular for expressing your views in such a pleasant manner.  

I want to reduce your fears:
I'd like to say, I'm not for having a community of money-grubbing jerks either.

To tell the truth, I've been doing contracts for some time now. I don't think it has adversely affected the community... take a look at Atolm's soulwolf class, which I did on contract.
Atolm was happy to distribute his model for free, and people have kitbashed it like crazy. Atolm's contribution has created what I think is the kind of positive experience we'd all like to see from contracting out.

The funny part is, everyone has entirely ignored the consumers here. That's why all this started... supply and demand.

When I used to get e-mail from people asking if I could create their custom ship, I would have to say no and that I was too busy. I am involved in sevaral projects, in raising children, and in trying to get a little gaming time in on my own.  This leaves prescious little time to donate modelmaking skills for models which, to be brutally honest, I wouldn't have done otherwise because I don't have the same passion for a particular design that someone else may have.

I *can* justify the time if I charge for it. Then it's a job. I am a professional. That's what I do.
I'm not a batchelor like I was when I first showed up in this comunity. I have a wife, children. I have a house. I have way, way less free time. It's a simple fact.

All I've done here is offer an avenue for people who want to see their model in game. Nothing more, nothing less. If they don't want it, they certainly don't have to pay for it. As a matter of fact, I encourage people to begin modding on their own! And I will help them do so as much as I can.

But to be realistic, some people don't have the skills or the time. That's something that can't even be debated.

Is there any reason we'd want to deprive these people of something they want?  Or to say they don't have the right to choose to pay for a model when they don't have the means to create it themselves?

I can't think of any good ones.

I encourage modellers with extra cycles to post that they are available to do requests for people who need their services. But me, I don't have any free cycles. So I'm doing the best I can by offering an alternative.

Be well,
 

anduril

  • Guest
Re: my 2 cents
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2003, 04:26:19 pm »
Actually James this thread was about the lack of new model posts.

Chris Johnson made the forgivable sin of bringing up Rick.  

Everytime that happens the trolls who languish in the eddy currents caused by his presence get stirred up and look for reasons to go off and lay out the world as they see it.  Then they go to great lengths to perpetuate their point of view long after there is any interest in it in the name of justifying themselves and proving to the world that they are correct.  Unfortunately they fail to realize the interest in their point ceased the moment they hit the submit button.

Once the all-know-it-all arm chair lawyers started the point of the thread vanished and was mutated into this monstrosity.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by anduril »

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2003, 10:26:19 am »
 
Quote:

 That said, do we buy or sanction canon models? No. Those designs are protected by three specific copyrights.........a Design copyright, Concept copyright, and here is the kicker.............an Intellectual copyright.

Can Paramount pull the plug on any design based on these copyrights? Yes. Will they? Unlikely.




DING DING DING.......correctamundo....

My discussions with Harry Lang on an unrelated project confirm Paramounts present attitude twords fan art and mods in general....

I dont think they have a problem even with cannon models...so long as they are used as intended....as game models,renders,and back rounds....used  by fans

Using one of those renders to run 100,000 copies off in print and sellin em?.....Shew...I wouldnt...

I do think they would have a problem if you're trying to build a bussiness venture based on their intellectual property....  

Savage

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2003, 04:52:30 pm »
Dear Star Trek fan,

Recently, many of you have expressed concerns about a small number of people who were in significant violation of Star Trek copyrights on the Web - a step taken to protect Star Trek copyrights and properties, which are of great value to us. Some of you have fundamental disagreements with this action; many of you have expressed concern; and others may have misunderstood what is being done. So we'd like to explain clearly and plainly what is going on and why - and, perhaps more important, what is not going on and why.

We understand fans' desire to communicate and share information about Star Trek and we support fan-created Art.

Paramount has not asked any site to "shut down"; it has asked Star Trek Webmasters who are either selling  or collecting fees, selling illegal merchandise, or posting copyrighted materials on their sites or selling copyrighted materials  to refrain from these specific activities.

We have no plans to write to the thousands of individuals sites which are not abusing the Star Trek copyrights.

To the extent possible, we want to give Star Trek fans the information and materials they want. To that end, we combined our resources and expertise with Microsoft's to create the most complete Star Trek site possible. Portions of the official Star Trek site, Star Trek: Continuum, are available to the web at large via the URL's http://www.startrek.com and http://www.paramount.com.

In situations where Paramount feels that it must enforce its copyrights by requesting that material be removed from Web sites, it acts not only on its own behalf, but also to protect the interests of the creative community. Paramount works closely with the many talented actors, writers, directors, musicians, artistic designers, and others who make Star Trek possible. They expect Paramount to protect the integrity of their creative efforts, as well as the economic value of those properties on which they depend to make their living.
We look forward to your continued communications and appreciate your consideration of these issues.

Sincerely,

David Wertheimer
President, Paramount Digital Entertainment
dwertheimer@pdent.paramount.com  

anduril

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2003, 05:35:56 am »
If that response from Paramount pertains to people writing them about the new subject of this thread then I would have to respond with a "get a life people".  You probably cry to Disney when you see someone posting an unapproved picture of Mini Mouse in their store window.  Or call the Police when you see your neighbor repeatedly cross the street without using the crosswalks.

I sure hope it is not.

If it is when did you become one of Paramounts paramilitary?

Or is it plain and simple jealousy?

Damn, I sure hope it is not.

If it is then this forum is not big enough for the both of us.

starforce2

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2003, 06:19:51 am »
you would think the people on this forum (you know who you are) would be a bit to old for "taddle-tailing" ugh.
If someone wants to spend 200usd on a mesh, well, more power to em. It's their money. I don't see the point in fighting over it.

Cleeve

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2003, 08:58:23 am »
The funny part is, the people who claimed that they were terrified of Paramount pulling the plug on community sites are the same ones who raise hell about things that otherwise would not be worthy of their attention.

Well, here is some news for the whiney jackasses. If Paramount ever sends me personal correspondence, I will be forced to pull all of the star trek models I have offered to the community for free download.

What you have NOT accomplished and can NOT accomplish is preventing me from offering my 3d Modelling services online, on my website, you small minded dolts.
That will continue regardless of whether or not I offer free downloads for the community. The law protects my right to work for a living, thankfully...

It would pain me greatly to remove this SFC community service of free downloads.
Let's hope that it doesn't come to that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Cleeve »

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2003, 09:40:21 am »
Hello Cleeve,

I'm upset to see this useless "old arguement" being re-hashed in the Taldren Model Forums again, and again,
I've been here over two years, and this place just gets worse and worse,

If Paramount forces you have to pull down  the "All Roads lend to Cleeves' STARYARDS" that would be tragedy,
But if Paramount were to demade it of you, I personally would understand you doing so, my friend,


Best wishes Cleeve


___________________________________________
Now to whoever did this,

Christ,
Can't you pee-witted twits get it through your thick skulls,
All this informing to Paramount DESTROYS the SFC Community,

Whoever did this,
You have my utter contempt,

GeneralWolfe


Quote:

The funny part is, the people who claimed that they were terrified of Paramount pulling the plug on community sites are the same ones who raise hell about things that otherwise would not be worthy of their attention.

Well, here is some news for you jackasses. If Paramount ever sends me personal correspondence, I will be forced to pull all of the star trek models I have offered to the community for free download.

What you have NOT accomplished and can NOT accomplish is preventing me from offering my 3d Modelling services online, on my website, you small minded dolts.
That will continue regardless of whether or not I offer free downloads for the community. The law protects my right to work for a living, thankfully...

It would pain me greatly to remove this SFC community service of free downloads.
Let's hope that it doesn't come to that.  


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by GeneralWolfe »

James Formo

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2003, 12:07:36 pm »
Quote:

If that response from Paramount pertains to people writing them about the new subject of this thread then I would have to respond with a "get a life people".  You probably cry to Disney when you see someone posting an unapproved picture of Mini Mouse in their store window.  Or call the Police when you see your neighbor repeatedly cross the street without using the crosswalks.

I sure hope it is not.

If it is when did you become one of Paramounts paramilitary?

Or is it plain and simple jealousy?

Damn, I sure hope it is not.

If it is then this forum is not big enough for the both of us.  




I believe that the quote savage used is not recent. I remember something posted by paramount back when people were arguing over P81 selling a model on ebay. I think that remark is about 4 months old.  I beginning to think that nobody in this forum has a life at all, myself including.

I plan on re-evaluating why I bother coming to this forum or why I even follow ST.  I never seen so much arguing in my life over every episode show on tv or ship or just anything at all.            

E_Look

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2003, 01:49:08 pm »
James (and everyone),

     Some people just like to argue.  Some people just like to pee in others' drinks.  I'm not sure I fully understand it, but I, well we all have seen those spoilsports who like to ruin good things.  Some people are just jerks... problem is, I'm not sure they're aware of it.  But watch out for those who are jerks AND know it, too.  There's something major league wrong with them.
     I come to this forum because its fun!  I love seeing all the new (and old) work folks like you come up with.  I live very close to some of the finest museums, but you can't see this stuff there!  Besides, the true generosity and friendliness of the posters here, and I speak generally, makes this a good place to chill for a while.  It's also nice to have possibly more to FOUR SFC games when you've bought one (you know, pre-TOS, TOS, in-box TMP, modded TMP, TNG, post-TNG, other mods... like wow, man!).  I'd say, don't withdraw, do as many have suggested, ignore the trolls or even the unintentional troublemakers.  I say let this be the last post and make this thread find its asymptotic nadir somewhere out of our memory.  

Savage

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2003, 05:44:50 pm »
Dear Star Trek fan,

3D artists who are either selling or collecting fees, selling illegal merchandise, or selling copyrighted materials to refrain from these specific activities.

Concerning law... in this case copyright law... 3D artist cant take startrek design and sell them for a profit. Big problem there. It becomes a problem when you the artist takes a copyrighted design, in this case the Enterprise from Star Trek (owned by Paramount Pictures), makes a model of it based on that design and which is automatically identified as, in this case, said Enterprise, and then asks people to pay him for it.

By doing this, you are making money out of Paramount design, regardless of how much work you has put in it. Without a licence from Paramount to do so, The artist is committing a felony--if indeed he is asking money for his  model.


In situations where Paramount feels that it must enforce its copyrights by requesting that material be removed from Web sites, it acts not only on its own behalf, but also to protect the interests of the creative community. Paramount works closely with the many talented actors, writers, directors, musicians, artistic designers, and others who make Star Trek possible. They expect Paramount to protect the integrity of their creative efforts, as well as the economic value of those properties on which they depend to make their living.
We look forward to your continued communications and appreciate your consideration of these issues.



Sincerely,

David Wertheimer
President, Paramount Digital Entertainment
dwertheimer@pdent.paramount.com
 

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2003, 06:15:59 pm »
Hello David Wertheimer,

A question, if I may,
Why do you choose the usernames

Savage, and GodSmack,

instead of your own name, David Wertheimer then?
Eh?


GeneralWolfe


Quote:

Dear Star Trek fan,

3D artists who are either selling or collecting fees, selling illegal merchandise, or selling copyrighted materials to refrain from these specific activities.

Concerning law... in this case copyright law... 3D artist cant take startrek design and sell them for a profit. Big problem there. It becomes a problem when you the artist takes a copyrighted design, in this case the Enterprise from Star Trek (owned by Paramount Pictures), makes a model of it based on that design and which is automatically identified as, in this case, said Enterprise, and then asks people to pay him for it.

By doing this, you are making money out of Paramount design, regardless of how much work you has put in it. Without a licence from Paramount to do so, The artist is committing a felony--if indeed he is asking money for his  model.


In situations where Paramount feels that it must enforce its copyrights by requesting that material be removed from Web sites, it acts not only on its own behalf, but also to protect the interests of the creative community. Paramount works closely with the many talented actors, writers, directors, musicians, artistic designers, and others who make Star Trek possible. They expect Paramount to protect the integrity of their creative efforts, as well as the economic value of those properties on which they depend to make their living.
We look forward to your continued communications and appreciate your consideration of these issues.



Sincerely,

David Wertheimer
President, Paramount Digital Entertainment
dwertheimer@pdent.paramount.com
   



L_B

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2003, 06:42:01 pm »
Because he probably isnt anyone important. its probably just a wannabe paramount grunt who sweeps the floors, and decided to give himself a glorified title.

But to anyone else that is interested, you can hire us to make your dream ships for you at an affordable price at www.Staryards.com

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: no news is NOT good news...
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2003, 01:06:02 am »
alrighty then....

I think anyone who's been here long enough remembers...

The great SFB model copywrite flame fest....

The general and international copywrite flame fest...

The kitbashing flame fest....

The mod flame fest...

The model conversion flame fest....

To now be added......*drum roll please*

This thread......

And like so many pointless arguements of the past......

I dub thee....... dead...by reason of insanity.....

*Crim pulls his disrupter...sets it to moderate*

ZZZZZZOT!

"The only good flame thread....is a dead flame thread"

"I  am the law".....Judge Dredd