Topic: New Klingon ship: The D5 Battlecruiser

[Karnak]

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Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?

Oooh, you are on very shaky ground here.  You mean like how the Tal Shiar Colonel Luvok was replaced by a changeling and sent the vaunted Tal Shiar to its doom.  How about the 4 changelings that held Earth hostage with sabatoge strikes?

Klingons fried their changeling imposter, BTW.  Colonel Luvok changeling and the 4 changelings on Earth got away.;)  

As for the amazement that Chang's BoP got beaten by the Enterprise and the Excalibur in Star Trek 6.  Yeah, I agree. If the Feds had used only a couple of regular CAs they would have been trashed big time, LOL.  I guess those BoPs are real trouble makers, hehe.

[Tremok]

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Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?

Oooh, you are on very shaky ground here.  You mean like how the Tal Shiar Colonel Luvok was replaced by a changeling and sent the vaunted Tal Shiar to its doom.

 Good. I don't like the Tal Shiar.  

 How about the 4 changelings that held Earth hostage with sabatoge strikes?

 The Dominion was manipulating everyone. Cardassians, Federation, Romulans, Klingon.

I wouldn't say "No wonder they Cardassians where so easily manipulated" when they where manipulating everyone.  

Klingons fried their changeling imposter, BTW.  

 Thanks to the help of the Federation.  

As for the amazement that Chang's BoP got beaten by the Enterprise and the Excalibur in Star Trek 6.  Yeah, I agree. If the Feds had used only a couple of regular CAs they would have been trashed big time, LOL.  I guess those BoPs are real trouble makers, hehe.  

 Considering it was the Enterprise that defeated Chang. Once that torpedo struck home it was finished. All the Excelsior did was maybe take a few extra hits for the Enterprise and quicken the destruction of the BoP.    

[Alidar Jarok]

Target that explosion and fire  

[Tremok]

  Tremok enjoys the pretty explosion    

[La'ra]

Balance of Terror:  Constitutions-class vessel destroys the pride of the Romulan fleet in a running fight.  Final tally: One Warbird gone, one fatality aboard Enterprise.

The Deadly Years:  An estimated ten Romulan warships don't manage to destroy the same Constitution-class starship despite her being commanded by an officer highly inexperienced in space combat.

The Enterprise Incident:  Three Romulan vessels of a design considered roughly equal to a Constituion-class are outmanuevered by a single Federation ship which steals a cloaking device and gets away clean.

The Defector:  Two Romulan D'deridex-class vessels back down in the face of one Galaxy-class and three unidentified Bird of Prey types (Probably K'vort-class, much smaller than the D'Deridex.

Klingon Civil War episodes (titled unremembered): Romulan task force refuses to fight Federation battle group when detected, despite the possibility of a Klingon Empire friendly to Romulan interests if the mission succeeds.

Unification Parts 1 & 2:  Klingon vessel penetrates Romulan space as far as their capital without being detected.  Romulans attempt quick take over of Vulcan, but destroy their own assault force when confronted with a single Galaxy-class starship.

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

I can probably find more, but it makes little difference.  Romulans have never been portrayed as an enemy as difficult to conquer as the Klingons, and judging from their reliance on skullduggery and ridiculous plots they're too weak to sustain a conflict with either the Federation or the Klingon Empire.

The Klingons, by contrast, did rather well against the Federation despite a few 'featured on Deep Space Nine' losses.  Afterward, they still had plenty left to hold the line and were pivotal in several Alliance victories versus the Gamma Quadrant invaders.  Also, in several 'alternate history' episodes we've seen, the Romulan Empire was subjugated by the Klingons....

In any case, it's kind of a silly thing to be arguing about.  Go read some of my fanfic if you like Klingons and some of Jaeih's or Sethans if you like Rommies.  Most of the people on that board are very good at capturing the flavor of their favorite Empires.  

[Tremok]

 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).  Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance.

I could comment that I wouldn't confuse the failures of Romulan subterfuge plans (most of the Romulan failures you mentioned) to mean they are weak. Those plans had the potential to bringe great rewards for the Empire, but didn't work out. Well, what did the loose in trying? But when Romulans DO fight, I believe they have shown themselves as formidable.

 But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.  

I personally think that  all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, they just different styles, advantages, and disadvantages.

   

[La'ra]

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 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

I realize that, though you do seem to be fond of trumpeting the Rommies praises.  I don't mind.  I love Klingons, after all.

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Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).

Well, that may've been the overall plan, but Tomalk's ambition to haul the Big E back home as a trophy certaintly didn't, and that did actually seem to be part of the plot.

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Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance

I've always found it logical that the reason they rely on subterfuge and such is simply because they don't have the resources to do anything else.  Despite their aggression, they seem loathe to waste ships or manpower...and yet they're cold-blooded enough to destroy three shiploads of their own people to prevent the Federation from having solid evidence of a hostile Romulan act, so I doubt it's concerns for their own soldiers that motivates them.  Romulans seem determined to get their bluff in early...they even build ships made to look bigger by using lots of empty space.

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But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.

Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

I personally think the Romulans are kind of a 'middle ground' Empire.  They don't have the greatest of anything, but their weaknesser, save perhaps for their arrogance which we've routinley seen exploited, are also minor.  With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

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I personally think, more or less, all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, just different styles.    

Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them.    

[Alidar Jarok]

The Defector:  Two Romulan D'deridex-class vessels back down in the face of one Galaxy-class and three unidentified Bird of Prey types (Probably K'vort-class, much smaller than the D'Deridex.

You wish

They were the size of a Negh'Var, minimum.  They could have as big as a Warbird

Klingon Civil War episodes (titled unremembered): Romulan task force refuses to fight Federation battle group when detected, despite the possibility of a Klingon Empire friendly to Romulan interests if the mission succeeds.

Redemtion

This is because of international politics.  The Romulans didn't want war, just to do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted

Unification Parts 1 & 2:  Klingon vessel penetrates Romulan space as far as their capital without being detected.  Romulans attempt quick take over of Vulcan, but destroy their own assault force when confronted with a single Galaxy-class starship.

They destoyed their evidence.

That evidence would have been an international embarassment (just like the forged evidence of a Dominion invasion

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

Another international politics thing.

The Romulans were willing to sacrifice something they wanted for personal gains when they saw it was not worth a war against their allies

Anyway

The United Federation of Planets, The Romulan Star Empire, and the Klingon Empire have been shown to have relatively equal militaries

The Klingons have a weaker economy

The Cardassians have inferior ships and, IMO, a weaker economy (at least after the war)

The Dominion is superior to the Federation in every way.

The Ferengi have ships on par with the Federation and Romulans (or, at least they did at the begining of the series.  The Suliban remind me alot of the Ferengi)
Their economy seems pretty good.
They don't seem as interested in international politics

The Breen are a mystery (very similar to the Gorn of TOS)
Their only advantage appeared to be the energy weapon.
They lack quality shields and have weapons similar to Klingons
Their economy and planet as a whole is unkown

I won't bother mentioning the Borg or 8472

The Kazon are technologically and economically inferior, but they stole some big ships

The Hirogen have made ships that are around the level of the Federation, but they haven't developed infistucture or economy.

[La'ra]

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You wish

They were the size of a Negh'Var, minimum.  They could have as big as a Warbird

You wish that were a feasible argument.  The size of those ships shifted even between shots, and we never saw a similarly sized Bird of Prey before or since.  Therefore, I doubt seriously there are Negh'Var sized BoPs.  You can subscribe to the notion if you wish, naturally.

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Redemtion

This is because of international politics.  The Romulans didn't want war, just to do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted

Yes.  They didn't want a war, and thus didn't want a fight.  However, if they'd fought, and won, the Klingon Empire just became their ally.  Seems to me that they aren't too happy with the prospect of a war with the Federation even with an ally who can directly compete with the Federation.

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They destoyed their evidence.

That evidence would have been an international embarassment (just like the forged evidence of a Dominion invasion

Yes.  They knew they couldn't support a invasion of Vulcan using conventional methods, and abandoned the idea, destroying any evidence that might lead the military action by the Federation.

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

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The United Federation of Planets, The Romulan Star Empire, and the Klingon Empire have been shown to have relatively equal militaries

We haven't seen enough of the Romulan military to judge, unless, as I tend to, use this absence itself as data for analysis.  

[Alidar Jarok]

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But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.

Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

I personally think the Romulans are kind of a 'middle ground' Empire.  They don't have the greatest of anything, but their weaknesser, save perhaps for their arrogance which we've routinley seen exploited, are also minor.  With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

The Romulans have the resource and Technology of the Federation.  They have a deeply loyal people who know "that they might have to sacrifice their lives for the Empire (Balance of Terror: The commander self-destructed his ship, Defector: A Romulan defector is almost a contradiction in terms", Unification: Their own people were killed to preserve evidence)

What the Romulans don't have is territory (I tend to think they have the smallest empire of the 3.  An empire consisting entirely of Romulans, and now Remens).  They are isolationist, so they haven't expanded as fast as the Klingons and Federation.

Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them/

They are very similar.

Goverment, people, intelligence

But I think that the Cardassians were falling behing technologically compared to "The big 3"

Dukat (or mabye Damar) said so himself, when he said that (or said he "thought that", depending on who said it) the Dominion would make Cardassia strong again.

I think Romulan ships were superior - although we only see Romulan DNs.  Cardassia uses CAs, BCHs (maybe, unless the Keldon is another CA), and DDs

[Tremok]

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 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

I realize that, though you do seem to be fond of trumpeting the Rommies praises.  I don't mind.  I love Klingons, after all.

 I like all of the Big3, but Romulans are may favorite, and I will defend them, when they are challenged, as I am sure you would when someone challenges the Klingons.  

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Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).

Well, that may've been the overall plan, but Tomalk's ambition to haul the Big E back home as a trophy certaintly didn't, and that did actually seem to be part of the plot.

 Icing on cake I say. Well, guess we Romulans can't always have our cake and eat it two.  

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Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance

I've always found it logical that the reason they rely on subterfuge and such is simply because they don't have the resources to do anything else.

 I don't know about that. We saw some rather huge Romulan Warbird fleets in the Dominion War. But yes, I doubt the Romulans had the fleets nessecary for dealing with both the Federation and Klingons. Contesting one or the other, perhaps, but not both.  Again, like Picard said, the only thing that contain the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance.  

Despite their aggression, they seem loathe to waste ships or manpower...

  I believe its called effeciency. [/color

 and yet they're cold-blooded enough to destroy three shiploads of their own people to prevent the Federation from having solid evidence of a hostile Romulan act, so I doubt it's concerns for their own soldiers that motivates them.

 Well, the transports where already well inside Federation space, I don't see any reasonable act of getting them home safetly. I am sure they would of if the could.  

 Romulans seem determined to get their bluff in early...they even build ships made to look bigger by using lots of empty space.

  Oh yes, Romulans love to intimidate. And I will agree with you that the D'deridex looks like it was design to intimidate. I don't see this as a sign that the ship is weak or anything though.  

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But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.

Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

 Well, one got its wing blown off. We don't know what happened after that. Notice how the wing collided with the Enterprise but stayed intact? Made of some strong stuff.

I for myself see the Romulans as highly trained and professional warriors that rely on strategy and and relatively small fleets of highly advance and powerful ships to get the job down.


With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

 We have absolutely no idea how many resources the Romulans have so I can't comment.  

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I personally think, more or less, all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, just different styles.    

Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them.    

 Ah, I view the Romulans as the professionals, the Cardassians are just drunken thugs. The Romulans also have the mnhei'sahe honor code, while the Cardassians don't.  They're stupid too.

When you see Romulans you see a people that are intensely loyal, highly trained, professional, and extremely dedicated to a cause. You seem that they love there Empire and there culture,  and its there dream to see the it (the Empire and culture) advance and progress, and they devote there lifes to that end.

Cardassians are just slobbering fools. Bullies who just abuse and use peple that are weaker than them. They don't appear to be highly trained or discipline. The only things they love and devote their lifes to is the betterment of themselves.

And what could the Cardassains have that would challenge the Romulans? There Galors and Keldons are nothing compared to the D'deridex.

I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.  

[Karnak]

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I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.

Probably pretty bad for the Romulans.  The Klingons were blood enemies for 80+ years with the Romulans before the Dominion War and still could fend off the Feds during this time when necessary.  In fact, in an alternate timeline where Garrett's Enterprise 1701-C fails in its mission, the Klingons goto war with the Feds and win.  Picard said that Starfleet had maybe 6 months left before they would have to surrender to the Klingons.  If the Klingons can beat the Feds they are in good shape to beat any race in the Alpha Quadrant.

Now, I know you are gonna say that the Klingons must have allied with the Rommies in this alternate timeline.  Well, you just don't know that....

The Rommies were more likely crapping their pants and went neutral just like they did in the early part of the Dominion War.

[ChamadaIV]

Yeesh. I leave this thread for a few days and look what happens. It goes from a debate over the D5 to a debate over the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant. I guess I'll wait for the final word on Ex Astris Scientia about the D5 then...

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I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.

Probably pretty bad for the Romulans.  The Klingons were blood enemies for 80+ years with the Romulans before the Dominion War and still could fend off the Feds during this time when necessary.  In fact, in an alternate timeline where Garrett's Enterprise 1701-C fails in its mission, the Klingons goto war with the Feds and win.  Picard said that Starfleet had maybe 6 months left before they would have to surrender to the Klingons.  If the Klingons can beat the Feds they are in good shape to beat any race in the Alpha Quadrant.

Now, I know you are gonna say that the Klingons must have allied with the Rommies in this alternate timeline.  Well, you just don't know that....

The Rommies were more likely crapping their pants and went neutral just like they did in the early part of the Dominion War.

You have to recall the importance of the Enterprise-C and its role at the battle of Khitomer. The Rommies instigated that conflict when they attacked the Klingon colony. The alternate reality started because the Klinks thought the Ent-C left them to die when the ship was pulled into the future by the temporal anomoly. This must've been considered an outrage, a total lack of honor, and sheer heartlessness, thus they declared war on the Feds. But I wouldn't be surprised if they went to war with the Roms as well. How they take on two major powers is beyond me. But you know what happens when you piss off a Klingon warrior, right? Ok, now think what happens when you piss off an entire Empire of warriors. Get the picture?

Of course, like the "Mighty Hood," Garrett and the BigE-C ultimately went off into Death's maw and valiantly fought it off until the end.

"We will never forget...the sacrifice of the brave heroes on the Enterprise-C, the defenders of Khitomer."  

Heh, that ought to be my new sig now...      

[Tremok]

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I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.

Probably pretty bad for the Romulans.  The Klingons were blood enemies for 80+ years with the Romulans before the Dominion War and still could fend off the Feds during this time when necessary.  In fact, in an alternate timeline where Garrett's Enterprise 1701-C fails in its mission, the Klingons goto war with the Feds and win.  Picard said that Starfleet had maybe 6 months left before they would have to surrender to the Klingons.  If the Klingons can beat the Feds they are in good shape to beat any race in the Alpha Quadrant.

Now, I know you are gonna say that the Klingons must have allied with the Rommies in this alternate timeline.  Well, you just don't know that....

The Rommies were more likely crapping their pants and went neutral just like they did in the early part of the Dominion War.

 IIf you where writing the canon, I am sure they would Mr. Karnak    

[Whiplash]

Does anyone know where I can see some photos and/or schematics of the D5 online?

W.

[Whiplash]

The thing about the Bird of Prey is that it is so small. When you take the weapons and shields of a big ship and put them on a flying, cloakable power core, you get a ship that, pound for pound, outstrips nearly every other ship out there. The Defiant is the only exception I can think of that might be superior. The Jem'hadar ships were equal or inferior. I bet 3 B'rels (inStar Trek) can take out just about any one ship out there, and be built for 1/5 the price of that ship.

The Dominion, clearly a capable military force that conquered their entire quadrant, also realize that little flying weapons platforms make excellent mainstays of a battle fleet.

W.
 

[ChamadaIV]

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I bet 3 B'rels (inStar Trek) can take out just about any one ship out there, and be built for 1/5 the price of that ship.

You know what's odd is that you may actually be right about that as far as SFC3 is concerned. Nobody may believe this, but my first time through the Klingon campaign, I went through it all with the B'Rel they started me in. I kid you not. I was amazed how easy it was to exploit the AI in the final battle against the Negh'var. Because I was so maneuverable and the bigger ship wasn't, I simply EM its first few shots (I still took some damage, some minor internals easily repaired) and then I stuck like glue to its port side keeping my guns facing the enemy while he kept turning trying to face me, but couldn't. In essence, the Negh'var was unable to attack me and I kept beating on his port side until it was over. The most pathetic final fight in gaming history (which I'm sure Taldren had hoped it would be something more).

Almost reminded me of the last battle in Final Fantasy VI :

Kefka casts Fallen One

My party HPs all reduced to 1.

I respond with :

Terra casts Quick on herself, then MagicX (gem box), Ultima deals 9999 damage, another Ultima.

Edgar casts Quick, then Illumina sword 9999 damage, then once more.

Sabin does his Bum Rush for mass damage.

Then Cyan steps in with two-sword combo (Murasame and Sky Render), Genji glove and Offering relics, then it was slice,  slice,  slice,  slice, and more slicing and dicing....game over. Roll credits.

Yeah, kinda like that. (Only Final Fantasy fans need apply to the above).  

So yes, the B'rel is an ass kicker, and then some....    

[Alidar Jarok]

It would have been a lot easier if you knew the shield frequencies

[Tremok]

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The thing about the Bird of Prey is that it is so small. When you take the weapons and shields of a big ship and put them on a flying, cloakable power core, you get a ship that, pound for pound, outstrips nearly every other ship out there. The Defiant is the only exception I can think of that might be superior. The Jem'hadar ships were equal or inferior. I bet 3 B'rels (inStar Trek) can take out just about any one ship out there, and be built for 1/5 the price of that ship.

W.
 

 For ships so powerful, BoPs seem to have a depressing tendacy to blow up.    

[ChamadaIV]

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Throw in the natural evasivness of the class and the cloaking device, and the tactic gets even harder to counter.  

Should the cloak happen to fail, (ie being detected), then I imagine just how easy it would be to counter said tactic. For wolf-packing, I would actually divide up my shots between two targets if there are three or more. Then I would focus on any weakness I find during the battle. An open shield for example. That is my method if swallowed into such a dire situation.

But often I follow Sun Tzu's advice:

"Weigh the situation, then move."

If the odds are overwhelming in a normal skirmish, I may retreat. Should the enemy be attacking a friendly starbase or a planet and I happen to be there, I will fight to the death.

CIV out.