Topic: New Klingon ship: The D5 Battlecruiser

[Tremok]

 Saw this ship tonight on Enterprise. Tough, mean looking ship. We even saw her in action! Nice treat.

The facts:

*The D5 is capable of warp 6
*The D5 has shields and multiple disruptors
*The D5 has greater combat capability than the NX-01
*The D5 was mentioned on DS9, but we never saw a picture of her.
*The D5, if I recall correctly, was made buy everyones favorite, John Eaves.


I must say, all in all, I like tonights episode. Some great combat scenes.

EDIT: Anyone else catch the Duras easter egg? Nice    

[ChamadaIV]

What's sad is that the D5's disruptors couldn't even disable Enterprise in the first few shots. Sometimes I think the writers should play SFC 1 or 2 for a bit and see just how long a Fed ship can last against a Klingon battlecrusier without its shields up.

They are treating polarized hull plating like its a viable alternative to shields when it shouldn't be. I'm sorry, Archer and Co. should've died tonight before any Klingon tribunal took place.    

[Tremok]

SFC 1&2 had very little to do with Star Trek.

Come now, this is the 2150s, not the 2370s.  Shields might have been something only the big or advance ships during that day. The NX-01 is supposed to be a primitve ship, it be silly to see it running around using transporters, photon torpedoes, or shields.

Saying that the NX-01 couldn't survive a few disruptor hits because it doesn't have shields is like saying a WWII destroyer couldn't survive a Tomahawk hit because it doesn't have CIWS.

Your just unhappy that the Romulan Early BoP is more powerful than your Klingon ships.  

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
SFC 1&2 had very little to do with Star Trek.

Come now, this is the 2150s, not the 2370s.  Shields might have been something only the big or advance ships during that day. The NX-01 is supposed to be a primitve ship, it be silly to see it running around using transporters, photon torpedoes, or shields.

Saying that the NX-01 couldn't survive a few disruptor hits because it doesn't have shields is like saying a WWII destroyer couldn't survive a Tomahawk hit because it doesn't have CIWS.

Your just unhappy that the Romulan Early BoP is more powerful than your Klingon ships.    

I learned never to underestimate Romulan engineering. How you guys create artificial sigularities that toys with the theories of quantum physics is beyond me.

But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise. Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  

[Tremok]

But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise.

 Whys that? We know next to nothing about the D5. The NX hull armor has taken many hits from many different types of weapons before. Hull armor might not stop weapons very well in the centuries to come, but in the 2150s it does the job well enough.    

 Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  Well, the K'tinga is a bigger,  more advance ship than the D5.

An interesting article about the K'tinga in Enterprise....  Star Trek: The Magazine clears up the issue: "As Rob (Bonchune) explains, John Eaves had designed a new Klingon ship specifically for this scene. 'It was kind of the same shape as the original Klingon battle cruiser; just a little more primitive. [...] They decided it could only be used with major changes, but after their work on Broken Bow the team was simply too exhausted to work through the night in a desperate attempt to get the shots ready. Instead, the producers made the decision to use an old model. 'We wound up going back to a version of the Klingon ship that had been built for DEEP SPACE NINE,' Mitch (Suskin) says. 'But that particular type of Klingon ship will not be used again, because they decided that it just didn't fit into their vision for this universe.' Rob admits that, he for one, is sorry the old ship was used, but acknowledges there was no alternative. 'As a fan I really regret that that ship is in there, but people were just working too much. After Broken Bow, everyone had already worked so much overtime'." - In other words, the K't'inga was not the model we were supposed to see in the episode.        

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:


But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise.

 Whys that? We know next to nothing about the D5. The NX hull armor has taken many hits from many different types of weapons before. Hull armor might not stop weapons very well in the centuries to come, but in the 2150s it does the job well enough.    

 Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  Well, the K'tinga is a bigger,  more advance ship than the D5.

An interesting article about the K'tinga in Enterprise....  Star Trek: The Magazine clears up the issue: "As Rob (Bonchune) explains, John Eaves had designed a new Klingon ship specifically for this scene. 'It was kind of the same shape as the original Klingon battle cruiser; just a little more primitive. [...] They decided it could only be used with major changes, but after their work on Broken Bow the team was simply too exhausted to work through the night in a desperate attempt to get the shots ready. Instead, the producers made the decision to use an old model. 'We wound up going back to a version of the Klingon ship that had been built for DEEP SPACE NINE,' Mitch (Suskin) says. 'But that particular type of Klingon ship will not be used again, because they decided that it just didn't fit into their vision for this universe.' Rob admits that, he for one, is sorry the old ship was used, but acknowledges there was no alternative. 'As a fan I really regret that that ship is in there, but people were just working too much. After Broken Bow, everyone had already worked so much overtime'." - In other words, the K't'inga was not the model we were supposed to see in the episode.        

 



Ok, ok. I can understand the intention that the K'Tingas should've looked more primative, but that's merely an artistic impression of visual appearance. A purely cosmetic issue as far as post-production is concerned. The real beef of the topic is the technical aspect of the D5's weaponry. I no longer have any of my old source materials. If I did, I'd have better insight to how effective Klingon disruptors should be against exposed hull, even in an earlier era (you simply scale down the power output levels to a reasonable point). But even those books couldn't tell me squat about "polarized hull plating."

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 

[Tremok]

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

[Tremok]

 Remember it is said that "He would be conisder a hero of the Empire if he killed those refugees", I doubt bringing them back alive was a concern for Duras.

As for how they got Archer, I don't know. Best I can think of is that Duras beamed him off while the NX was running away.    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL. If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF. If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability and see how long this scenario lasts. This is submitted for your approval (thanks Rod Sterling  ).

As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

[Maxillius]

Quote:

Quote:

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL. If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF. If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability and see how long this scenario lasts. This is submitted for your approval (thanks Rod Sterling  ).

As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.      

and make that a FF with 2 phaser 3's and one A rack with slow drones

[Tremok]

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL.

 Excuse me, I had a B'rel at first, but then put in a K'tinga on second thought.  I forgot to change the DD into a CL. However, I do not realise how this typographical error makes my analogy "flawed".  

 If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.     If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic. This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.



As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

 It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL.

 Excuse me, I had a B'rel at first, but then put in a K'tinga on second thought.  I forgot to change the DD into a CL. However, I do not realise how this typographical error makes my analogy "flawed".  

 If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.     If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic. This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.



As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

 It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

For your first point, I had assumed you were sure about the K'tinga being a DD. I wasn't aware if your unitentional mistake.

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Acknowledged, your example was good and it wasn't my place judge it "flawed" like I did. My apologies.

Quote:
Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.  

Sure there's a big difference. An explorer class vs. a battlecruiser. Hmmm...let me see. One is built for science and exploration, the other made to kick ass in combat. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Quote:

 If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic.

No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? That's the flawed logic IMO.

Quote:
This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.

2152. Exactly. No Federation. Earth is barely 100 years post WW III and Warp 5 is new to humans. Whereas the Klinks are a primarily warrior race well aware of the Roms and their dangerous technologies and have tinkered with starships and warp drives longer than Earth has. I stand by my conclusion: the fact that the NX-01 survived that battle against Duras was because of the pathetic deus ex machina know as polarized hull plating. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.  

Quote:
As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

Don't deny it, you know its true. You be a fool to underestimate the Raptor. Pre-patch, warbirds were trash in comparison. Even now, Raptors still kick mighty butt. Or do you doubt the power of the mighty Romulan Empire?   You do bear its insignia after all.

Quote:
It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

A good point. You just have to accept the outcome as they gave it to us tonight. The transporter thing is a viable conclusion; while the NX-01 made off with the refugees, Archer was beamed over by Duras. Amazing Duras didn't kill him on the spot...



   

[FPF_TraceyG]

Interesting... Paramount who hates all things Amarillo Design Bureau, and yet, where was the non-canon D5 ship classification first seen by fans anywhere? Well, Starfleet Battles of course... 20 years ago...
Curious...

[Tremok]

Sure there's a big difference. An explorer class vs. a battlecruiser. Hmmm...let me see. One is built for science and exploration, the other made to kick ass in combat. Do you see where I'm going with this?

 The actual designations of ship types really doesn't mean all that much. Everything the Klingons have is a battlecruiser. Also, Starfleet has a precedent of naming its largest, most powerful vessels "explorers". The Excelsior, Galaxy, and Sovereign are all "expkorer" type vessels.  




No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Because they haven't thought of Enterprise or poloraized hull plating when they where making previous Trek shows.    Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Evolution of weapons.    Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? The Defiant had ablative armor which could be blasted away percent by percent. Perhaps the NX uses a more primitve form of that armor, or simply could be that weapon hits drain the energy reserves, and once drain the polarizing goes away, leaving the ship vurnable.  That's the flawed logic IMO.


2152. Exactly. No Federation. Earth is barely 100 years post WW III and Warp 5 is new to humans. Whereas the Klinks are a primarily warrior race well aware of the Roms and their dangerous technologies and have tinkered with starships and warp drives longer than Earth has. I stand by my conclusion: the fact that the NX-01 survived that battle against Duras was because of the pathetic deus ex machina know as polarized hull plating. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.  

 Huh, yes, polarized hull plating saved the ship. Good conclusion.  


Don't deny it, you know its true. You be a fool to underestimate the Raptor. Pre-patch, warbirds were trash in comparison. Even now, Raptors still kick mighty butt. Or do you doubt the power of the mighty Romulan Empire?   You do bear its insignia after all.

 The Raptor overall is probably the best ship in the game, but on a un-modded server, I generally rather have a Warbird. I always have been a follower of the Battleship/Tank philosophy, and the Warbird does the Battleship/Tank better than the Raptor.  

A good point. You just have to accept the outcome as they gave it to us tonight. The transporter thing is a viable conclusion; while the NX-01 made off with the refugees, Archer was beamed over by Duras. Amazing Duras didn't kill him on the spot...


 Killing him would of an act of honor and respect in the Klingon culture.    

[Jwest]

No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? That's the flawed logic IMO.

Simply put, the same reason there's no mention of wood hulls and rigging in todays navy. They're Obsolete by today's standards. But although wooden hulls and rigging are weaker than todays ships, there was a period when the most powerful wooden ships could be threat to the early ironclads. By the same token, just because polarized hull plating is weaker and/or less energy efficient than shields doesn't mean it's not a useful defense against an early disruptor, capable of protecting the ship against a few shots.

Remember, the half-power disruptors of SFC *fighter* is probably more powerful than the big guns of this battlecruiser.

Mind you - there are a lot of problems with this episode, I just can't say the fact that NX-01 can survive the first shots is one of them.

JW  

[Tremok]

Quote:
Interesting... Paramount who hates all things Amarillo Design Bureau, and yet, where was the non-canon D5 ship classification first seen by fans anywhere? Well, Starfleet Battles of course... 20 years ago...
Curious...  

 The D5 in the show is much better anyway. Besides, I wouldn't want every new ship to come from an older Trek game. I like seeing completely new ships.  

Also, speaking on the subject of game ship designs, who designed the SFC1&2 Romulan ships and the SFC3 Romulan ships? I must say, I would be discourage  to have anyone that designed/approved SFC3 Romulan ships  make ships for the Romulans on TV (shiver).    

[FPF_TraceyG]

New ship designs are good, yes. It does )for me anyway) become a bit disconverting to have all these different 'versions' of a Trek Universe though, ones where a D5 is a light cruiser and now one where its a Battlecruiser in the 22nd century.
I can see the point about inconsistency in a timeline where technology that exists before a point in time doesnt exists after it. Of course, its Star Trek, so perhaps this explainable, but its not something that TNG ever had to deal with. Gene Rodenberryvery cleverly placed TNG, what was it, 70, 80 100 years after the Original Series? Which gave a lot of breathing space for new technology and gave the script writers the room they needed to be creative.
Enterprise is now set in a historical context, and doesnt (or shouldnt) have that luxury.

[Tremok]

 I don't think the SFC D5 was ever canon.    

[FPF_TraceyG]

The D5 wasnt... no, you are correct.
However, the term D7 was never canon either, but is treated as such.
The question then of what is canon and what isnt is, I'm sure, an arguable question and strictly speaking, whatever appears officially in the TV series or movies is canon (even with all of its inconsistencies). A certain degree of fan-based non-canon material has worked its way into what is now canon, but even still, I wasnt actually saying calling the Enterprise D5 an inconsistency. However, for me personally, I've come to think of a D5 as the Light Cruiser created by ADB, and there is a wealth of non-canon material which the fan base has gone to great lengths to ensure not only is it consistent with canon material but also with itself as well. This adds much more depth, realism, believability and cohesion to the entire Star Trek Universe and I for one welcome it. It would be nice if Paramount acknowledged the efforts of its fan base and went along with that as well, instead of creating not just inconsistencies with non-canon material, which is neither here nor there, really, but inconsistencies with its own material.

[Apocolypse]

  Thinking that this would actually be a worthwhile topic, i read it. All i have to say is blah blah blah blah blah. A Klingon D5 should NOT be able to disable nor destroy  Enterprise with a few shots. Why you might ask? Simply the same reason that the Excelsior is in SFC3. Ships get refitted, they arent doomed to their original design, the ship that is the D5 in Enterprise is NOT the same ship that is in SFC. Thought that would be apparant, guess not.