Topic: Fate of the Valdore

[Tremok]

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I noticed this when I saw the movie but never found a screencap of it until now.  The Valdore's sister ship is painted gold.  

 I think its just the lighting.    

[DavT]

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 I recommend that you see my Romulan Ship History thread about what I have to say about the supposed difference of Reman and Romulan technology. Its located in the Scimitar section.    

And you do the same, in your thread.

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 Everyone knew that the Dominion War of conquest had started. If the Dominon sat quietly in its little corner of space with bothering anyone then the Federation would of left them alone.  

I was pointing out that the Federation can take aggressive action when its wellbeing is jeopardized, which it did.

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 Everyones infrastructures was broken. And remember, the a few weeks the Klingons had to deal with Dominion and its allies all on its on. Out of all the allied empires, the Klingons where the ones hurt the most.

You're confusing infrastructure with units. Infrastructures are used to build and maintain units, which are sent out to fight. The Klingons units took heavy losses during the period in which they alone held the line for the Alliance, but their infrastructure, consisting of their shipyards, mines, and factories were safely tucked away back in Klingon space. The same applied to the Romulans and the Federation, though the Federation, sharing the largest border area with the Cardassian/Dominion, suffered the most infrastructural damage ("One Little Ship", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Federation planets; "The Valiant", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Starfleet outposts). Still, none of the Alliance members had their infrastructure totalled the way Cardassian territory was.

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Actually, the Obsedian Order was claimed to be the top dog of that category... At least, it was the top dog.    

 Your the first one that I had ever heard make that claim.

And while the Obsedian Order might of been a respectable intelligence organization, the Cardassians on the whole are nothing more than a bunch of bullies, thugs.    

Um, I'm actually basing this on statements made during DS9. Unfortunately, I can't give you the exact episodes, but I can assure you that the Obsedian Order was much more dangerous an organization than the Tal Shiar was. You'll have to ask around for the exact episodes and quotes, but they're there.

No argument about the Cardassians as a whole though, god I hate them. *recalls bitterly the first Federation/Cardassian War* But that does not mean the Obsedian Order isn't the most ruthless and effective intellegence organization among the Alpha Quadrant.  

[Tremok]

And you do the same, in your thread.

 Just spent an hour replying.  

I was pointing out that the Federation can take aggressive action when its wellbeing is jeopardized, which it did.

 Well, the Dominon was attacking, trying to conquer them. I don't think its in the Federations nature to attack another empire because it might have some revolutionary/superior military technologies.  

You're confusing infrastructure with units. Infrastructures are used to build and maintain units, which are sent out to fight. The Klingons units took heavy losses during the period in which they alone held the line for the Alliance, but their infrastructure, consisting of their shipyards, mines, and factories were safely tucked away back in Klingon space. The same applied to the Romulans and the Federation, though the Federation, sharing the largest border area with the Cardassian/Dominion, suffered the most infrastructural damage ("One Little Ship", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Federation planets; "The Valiant", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Starfleet outposts). Still, none of the Alliance members had their infrastructure totalled the way Cardassian territory was.

 I simply remember at the end of the war every empire was devastated, the Klingons the worse hit, and that it would take years for them all to rebuild. Also I remember the Dominion was at one time using the Nuetral Zone to attack the allies. From there, it could attack deeply into the both Klingon and Federation space. I am curious as to your source that you used to show what the borders where and how the war progressed.  

Um, I'm actually basing this on statements made during DS9. Unfortunately, I can't give you the exact episodes, but I can assure you that the Obsedian Order was much more dangerous an organization than the Tal Shiar was. You'll have to ask around for the exact episodes and quotes, but they're there.

 Better not be Garak. While I do remember that Garak might of said "The Obsedian was the best/among the best" I never recall anyone saying it was better than the Tal Shiar.  

No argument about the Cardassians as a whole though, god I hate them. *recalls bitterly the first Federation/Cardassian War* But that does not mean the Obsedian Order isn't the most ruthless and effective intellegence organization among the Alpha Quadrant.  

 Indeed. All of the major empires have some admirable traits. The Federation has virtue, mercy, and diligence. The Klingons have honor, strength, and determination. The Romulans are professional, cunning, and have their own form of Bushido code (mnhei'sahe). The Cardassians are just thugs.      

[Alidar Jarok]

Garak doesn't like Romulans

I remember a statement of his the says:

Ah, Romulus.
How well I remember it.

You will find the predominant color to be gray.
The buildings. The clothes. The people.
Did you know that the Romulan heart itself is gray?
It's true.
And entirely appropriate for such an unimaginative race.

So don't trust what Garak says.

The Obsidian Order might be great, but it doesn't compare to the brutality of the Tal'Shiar

The Obsidian Order can be kept under control by Central Command

DavT, I'll reply to your post to me in a moment, it takes time to look up all the needed quotes

[Alidar Jarok]

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2152: The Enterprise encounters 2 Romulan ships.  They have a cloaking device that is powerful enough to render Earth's primitive sensors useless in detecting the ship.  It also makes the ship invisable to the naked eye without close inspection.  The ship also launches Atomic weaponry througha FTL delivery system.  The weapon can be precisely targeted.

Um, I really don't recall any description of the weapons seen in that ENT episode being given. They certainly did not look like anything FTL. They look more like direct energy weapons, in fact.

Direct weapons are Faster Than Light.

They looked like a disruptor.  But, since we don't know what they are, we can assume they are anything that moves faster than light.  The Romulans of this day were supposed to use Atomic weapons.  Although the Atomics might have been a heavy weapon, I decided to hypothesized that it was an Nuke

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2266: A Romulan Bird of Prey crosses the neutral zone and attacks Federation outposts.  It features a cloaking device that allows it to hide from Enterprise's sensors.  An occasional "Blip" would allow Spock to track it.  The power required for the combination Cloak and Plasma Torpedo forced the ship to use up its fuel reserves.  The Commander self-destructed.

Wasn't so much a "blip", as the fact it showed up on proximity sensors. As to one it showed up on proximity sensors at all, who knows?

A quote form Spock

"A blip on the sensor. Could be the intruder."

Now if that isn't a blip, I don't know what is.  He says right before he says invisibility is possible

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2285: The Klingons appear with their own Bird of Prey.  This design features a cloaking device similar to the Romulans, only clearly flawed.  A visible distortion was at least as significant than the "Blip" that Spock could see to track the Rom BoP (although this might be due to the improved sensors).

I'd say the SFX people finally got around to creating a "cloak" effect, rather than say "it's completely invisible!" Gee, how many times did they use that excuse in TOS? But you know, we have to interpret what they give us, no matter their true reasons.

OK, you might be right.  I don't think they could track the ship, just see it.

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2364: Romulans encountered by the Federation.  The new D'Deridex class Warbird is armed with Disruptors (possibly the exchange for the Cloak).  Their cloak had no visible distortion (something that Federation intelligence was desperately hoping for)

Visible distortion is next to useless as a detection method because it relies on visual observation (you can't be moving very fast, and you need to be looking in the right direction, and the target has to be much too close, etc), what Starfleet was betting on was a momentary weakness between the dropping of the cloak and the raising of shields and weapons.

PICARD (to Data): Are your sensors picking up anything?  You should be detecting a disturbance.

DATA: Negative.

GEORDI: We wanted to know if they have improved their cloaking device -- I guess we have our answer.

As for dropping their shields to uncloak, how's this statement:

WORF: I have a positive lock... It's disengaging its cloaking device.

RIKER: They are vulnerable for an instant as they become visible.

WORF: Captain, this may be our only chance.

Picard chose not to fire because he wanted better relations with the Romulans

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2370: The existance of a Federation Phased cloaking device is descovered.  The Federation agree to never use it.

Fools!

Sorry, how's this?

As long as Picard is around, the Federation decides not to use it, to avoid a lecture

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2371: The Romulans, not the Klingons, agree to give to give a cloak for instillation on the USS Defiant (This is a strong suggestion that Romulan cloaks are superior.  In Devil's Due, Picard syas "A Romulan Claoking Device?"  The Klingons rarely get credit for their cloak).  Once in the Gamma Quadrent, it is descovered that the Dominion is capable of detecting the cloak easily.

Or it could be because of the fact that the treaty which banned Federation's use of cloaking devices was signed with the Romulans, so naturally, any exceptions made would heavily involve the Romulans, who would want to make sure the Federation does not abuse this.... 'gesture of good faith' (Sisko shot that to hell, didn't he? ^_~).

The fact that Romulan cloaking devices are often mentioned could simply mean that the Klingons keep tighter control over their exchanges of technology, where as the Romulans hold cloak yard sales.

You could be right

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2374: A romulan attempt to sieze the Cheese ship Promethius fails.  The Romulans join the Federation and Klingons against the Dominion.  They commit a large number of their largest ships, The D'deridex Warbird, knowing they are will become obsolete in a few years by the new "Valdore type" Warbird.

To suggest that the D'deridexes in "Message in a Bottle" were being used as cannon fodder is completely baseless speculation, and you know it. In all likelihood, the Romulans simply sent what they had on hand. Considering how the operation to capture the Cheese ship could very well be seen as an act of war (murder of Federation citizens, theft of Federation property), it's unlikely that the Romulans would get sloppy and send unworthy vessels to complete the final phase of their incredibly daring and risky operation.

I wasn't suggesting that.  I was suggesting that the Romulan's finest wasn't the bulk of the fleet used against the Dominion.  I was suggesting that Valdore had started to be put into mass production, so the D'deridex's could be commited in the war effort on a wide scale.

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Whatever year Nemesis is: Romulans develop a perfect cloak that can fire when cloaked, keep its shields up, has no tacyon emmisions or anti-proton residue.  They also develop improved shielding and thrusters.  All the remaining D'deridex's are refitted with these, but the new Valdores can use these the most effectivly.

Er.... You're really speculating on the Valdores there. We know next to nothing about how effective they are. For one thing, their displacement is a lot less than the Warbirds. So much less overhead storage space, cupholders, CD players, weapons, shield generators, etc... You know. Luxary goods.

And I'd hardly call those deployable thrusters "improved". More like "retro". Definately not enough subspace driver coils in those impulse engines.

Point about the cloak though... Normal cloaking devices don't emit tacyons during cloaked operations, they only do so when decloaking. So I had no idea why that was even mentioned. As for anti-proton scans, that was NOT mentioned by Geordi. I kept waiting for him to suggest it, or try it, but he doesn't in Nemesis! All his method was apparently passive in nature, or just regular sensor scans. The cloak back in TNG could avoid searches like that, much less in Nemesis. I think there was a definate lack of plausible technobabble as to why the cloak in Nemesis was an improvement over past models, considering the reasons for not detecting it given. As far as I can tell, the major benefit to the cloak in Nemesis was the fact you can fire while using it, and it turns on and off faster. It's no phase cloak, and there is still a moment of vulnerability (at least to scans) while it turns on or off, that's how Geordi picked up the thalaron radiation.

I thought there are ionization disturbances when it un-cloaks.  I thought I remembered Geordi saying this cloak was un-detectable.  I guess I was wrong.

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This cloak is aquired by Shinzon and installed on the newly completed Scimitar.  This ship is based on Valdore, allowing for maximum minuverability.  It is also based on the Dominion Battleship, allowing for maximum firepower.  Finally, it is based on Shinzon's own tastes, causing the ship to look sort of like a bat.

Um. Yeah. Right. Er... Did I mention I like bunnies? 'Cause you know, I like bunnies. Especially ones that fly around in space. Space bunnies.

I was thinking of a way to explain the fact that it looks really funny.  Some say it has Breen influences.  The Breen use biological ships, so they have to look like that.  Scimitar doesn't.

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Ok, maybe I added a few things of my own speculation.  It is speculated that Enterprise B's bulky design was for the purpose of detecting that Klingon cloak.  It is clear that the Klingons stopped using it, but their cloak improved to the point where the Romulans didn't notice 3 GIANT BoP's sitting near them in the Defector.  That is the evolution of stealth and radar.  

SPACE BUNNIES!!!!!  

Vauthil ssiun ch'Rihan  

[Tremok]

You will find the predominant color to be gray.
The buildings. The clothes. The people.
Did you know that the Romulan heart itself is gray?
It's true.
And entirely appropriate for such an unimaginative race.

 
 

As for Romulus, I found it to be rather pretty myself in Nemesis.



 

[Tremok]

 I seen the movie as well, and both ships looked green to me.

Well, they are in the Rift (a nebula). Weird lighting effects go on in those.    

[Tremok]

 RE: Scimitars cloak

Tachyons and anti-protons were mentioned. I remember it.

Now, can try to twist and spin the worlds all you want, but Geordi did say very clearly that the cloak was perfect, and that it could not be detected. Period.  

[Davey E]

 

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 You're confusing infrastructure with units. Infrastructures are used to build and maintain units, which are sent out to fight. The Klingons units took heavy losses during the period in which they alone held the line for the Alliance, but their infrastructure, consisting of their shipyards, mines, and factories were safely tucked away back in Klingon space. The same applied to the Romulans and the Federation, though the Federation, sharing the largest border area with the Cardassian/Dominion, suffered the most infrastructural damage ("One Little Ship", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Federation planets; "The Valiant", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Starfleet outposts). Still, none of the Alliance members had their infrastructure totalled the way Cardassian territory was.

 

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 I simply remember at the end of the war every empire was devastated, the Klingons the worse hit, and that it would take years for them all to rebuild. Also I remember the Dominion was at one time using the Nuetral Zone to attack the allies. From there, it could attack deeply into the both Klingon and Federation space. I am curious as to your source that you used to show what the borders where and how the war progressed

Tremok,
DavT is correct,
The Dominion never raided Klingon Space,
It was simply too far away, and that meant their Industrial Infrastructure was never destroyed, Same as the Federation and Romulans
The furthest the Dominion progressed into Federation space was "BETAZED" which they annexed,

Try to get hold of the Star Trek Star Charts book by Geoffrey Mandel, (see page 46/47)
You,ll see that Betazed is not that far from the Cardassian Border,

When the Breen attacked Earth, that was a hell of a distance to travel and seems unbelievable they managed it without Cloaking devices,
That part of the Story (DS9) seems totally far fetched

The Klingons and Romulans were devasteted from Warship attrition, But with their shipyards etc intacts, They will be back to strength a lot sooner than the Cardassians
       

[Alidar Jarok]

OK

Here was the discussion I saw about Galaxy class numbers

http://scn.infopop.net/0/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=526090832&f=9700964644&m=5460941135&p=1

[Tremok]

  The ex-astris-scientia forums? *cringes*  

[Alidar Jarok]

:rolleyes:

I was using the information suggested based upon the facts suggested.

The ex-astris-scientia forums have about as good info as this one does  

[Tremok]

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:rolleyes:
The ex-astris-scientia forums have about as good info as this one does    

Its the reasoning and logic to apply they info correctly that has me doubting.  

[Tulmahk]

Well, Tremok, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally, I graduated from the War College.  I suspect you graduated from the Academy.  The Academy students get all the best propaganda (unlike us 'underpriviledged' Romulans who's only option for an education is the War College).

Being primed for membership in the Tal Shiar, are you?  I suspect so.  Only in the Tal Shiar's propaganda is there no political strife in the Star Empire (the whole senate gets wiped out, 2 Praetor's in a row get killed, and there is, according to you, no political strife?  Ha!  Propaganda of the highest order.  And the Klingons a weakling empire?  Well-bloodied, yes.  Weakling?  Never.)    

[Tremok]

Well, Tremok, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 Alteast try to disprove whatever points of mine you disagree with.  

Personally, I graduated from the War College.  I suspect you graduated from the Academy.  The Academy students get all the best propaganda (unlike us 'underpriviledged' Romulans who's only option for an education is the War College).

 I do not understand the point of this comment. I never made any claims of being more privilged of superior to anyone.  

2 Praetor's in a row get killed,

 One Praetor was killed by a person that was brutally supressed and subjucated by the Empire. He, with the help of the Military established himself Praetor. Then, the Enterprise, with the assitance of two Valdore types, gets killed himself.    

 and there is, according to you, no political strife?  Ha!  Propaganda of the highest order.  And the Klingons a weakling empire?

 They Remans and Shinzon certainly weren't happy. In the movie, Shinzon does say that Governments changes often enough, but it makes no mention of how the vast populace of the Empire felt about the old government before it was killed. We know Romulans strongly 'dislike' Remans, so they probably would be very unhappy having them rule of them. But then they, too, where killed off.

I cannont see anyone in postion to oppose them Romulan military right now: The old government is gone, the one that replaced that one is also gone. All that seems to be left is them.  They might even be nice and establish a republic, or they might just assume all they power for themselves. Only time will tell.      

 Well-bloodied, yes.  Weakling?  Never.)    

 I never said the Klingons are weak, just that they where the empire that was hardest hit during the Dominion War. I even listed several admiral tributes that they have.

As for the Ferengi comment, that was just role play.

Edit: And PS, I do not like the Tal Shiar. I am more of a Donatra type Romulan, a Romulan that lives by mnhei'sahe.    

[Alidar Jarok]

You may debate about where you grew up in the Star Empire

Myself, I'm a defector who commited suicide 5 years ago.  I should have no knowledge of current Romulan ship capacity.

[DavT]

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Myself, I'm a defector who commited suicide 5 years ago.  I should have no knowledge of current Romulan ship capacity.  

And I'm a veteran of both the Cardassian and Dominion War, which makes me very much anti-Cardassians. However, it turns out that I was right, the Obsedian Order was said to be superior to the Tal Shiar. And it wasn't by Garak either, it was by Odo.

http://www.crosswinds.net/~capttrekker/tstds9etf/stds9s2et/ds9442tw.htm
http://www.crosswinds.net/~capttrekker/tstds9etf/stds9s3et/ds9465ic.htm
http://www.crosswinds.net/~capttrekker/tstds9etf/stds9s3et/ds9467tdic.htm

Run a search of the names of the intellegence services, and it'll show the relevent lines.

Now, I'd love to continue this discussion, but I'm too occupied, so I'll take a rain check. I'll just leave off with an analysis of the damage suffered by the various native Alpha Quadrant Empires, in response to what Tremok said. I'm not even bothering speculating, I'm just stating stuff from episodes, you can look it up if you don't believe me.

Cardassian:
Utterly ravaged, started off the war with one shipyard taken out (?A Call to Arms?), loses at least another during the war that we hear about ("Shadows and Symbols"), had their territory trampled because most of the fighting was clearly on their front yard (?Tears of the Prophets), had their territory overrun when the alliance finally broke through decisively, plus played host to the Dominions who ended the war with a short genicide on their home planet (?What You Leave Behind?), resulting in millions of death and destruction of a number of highly developed cities. All that would amount to infrastructural damage, since the losses were of value to industries, production, and support. Their military was clearly devastated as well, even used as cannon fodder by the Dominions ("Strange Bedfellows"). This is on top of the damages they suffered during the Klingon invasion (?The Way of the Warrior?), which was protrayed as having inflicted heavy losses on the Cardassian fleet (military) and territory (infrastructure, we see and hear about Klingon raiding everything worthawhile). The Cardassians are the worst off of all the empires, with heavy damage across the board.

Federation:
Second worse, but unclear as to exactly how badly it was. Most of the fighting took place along the Federation/Cardassian border, even without an official map of the ST universe to work with, we can tell by what we are told about Dominion advances into Federation territory and attacks and conquest of Federation planets (Betazed, Bolia, etc). It also fits into what we do know about the arrangement of the empires in the Alpha Quadrant, as the Federation and Cardassians share a very much disputed border (TNG?s ?The Wounded?). Certainly, the capture of the homeworlds of prominent Federation members is not a good thing, and such deep penetration and occupation of Federation space entails at least some damage to infrastructures, if the Dominions destroy everything Starfleet in sight (subspace relays, dry docks, shipyards, outposts), which is suggested it does have a history of doing (?The Valiant?). We also know that the Dominions raided Federation industrial assets behind Federation lines ("One Little Ship"), plus the Breen hit Starfleet HQ ("The Changing Face of Evil"), though the extent of the physical impact of the attack was debatable. As for military loses, we can estimate from episodes like ?Sacrifice of Angels?, ?The Changing Face of Evil?, as well as many other, that it was not light. The impression give is that Starfleet pushed itself to the limits to foot the war, and their losses were very heavy. Going further back, the Federation engaged in active skirmishing with Klingon forces during the invasion of Cardassia, taking notable losses even back then (??Nor the Battle to the Strong?). Tallied all together, the Federation took the second biggest loss overall, and will probably end up providing most of the aid to rebuild Cardassia. The fact that the Federation is generally portrayed as the quadrant?s leading power, with the most of everything, helps offset some of the losses.

Romulans:
The second last empire to enter the war (?In the Pale Moonlight?), the Romulans seemingly faired the best off from having remained untouched for the longest. Visually speaking, looking at the combat sequences, the Romulans took considerable losses, though they usually represented a smaller proportion of the alliance fleet onscreen than Klingon or Federation. According to ?In the Pale Moonlight?, the Romulans share a common stretch of border with the Cardassians and the Federation, allowing the Dominion to jump across Romulan space to hit Federation target. However, almost no mention was made regarding Dominion activities and deployment opposed to Romulus besides that. All we know is that the Romulans started off the war by hitting at least 15 Dominion bases along their border in a massive effort, no mention was made of Dominions threatening Romulan territory. Without any information at all, we can only make a statement on Romulan military losses, which was obviously lighter than most of the other empires, from being in the war the second shortest, and demonstrating a very conservative, defensive approach to the war (?Tears of the Prophets?). With the Romulans always very upfront about their military losses as a show that they are holding up their end of the alliance, it would be strange for them not to mention any thing about losses on their front. Though, according to tidbits from episodes like ?The Reckoning?, the impression given is that the Romulan?s second front really caught the Dominions off guard, and the Romulans were making headways. This rather contradicts Romulan philosophy given in "Tears of the Prophets".

Klingons:
The Klingons are probably the second worst off militarily, but apparently survived with their entire infrastructure intact. Klingon space is apparently quite distant from Bajor and the Federation/Cardassian border, as indicated by the long travelling time Martok gave in ?The Way of the Warrior?. The Klingon?s industries and other infrastructure are thus protected from direct invasion, or even raiding, as we do not hear of either during the war. The Klingon military however have been fighting intensely for the longest time next to the Cardassians, fighting the Cardassians at first and skirmishing and raiding the Federation (??Nor the Battle to the Strong?), then the Dominion. During the brief period when the Breen energy dampening weapon rendered the Federation and Romulan fleets vulnerable, the Klingons alone held the line (?Tacking Into the Wind?), and took heavy losses as a result, losses that were made even worse by the mismanagement of Empire Gowron. Basically, while the Klingons lost many military units, the industry that produced these units remained physically intact.

Breen:
Too little information on the Breen to form a reliable picture. All we know is that they lost basically their entire fleet that attacked Earth, while from ?The Changing Face of Evil?, we can see that Breen ships are no tougher than usual. They also entered the war dead last, even behind the Romulans. Though, Breen territory/infrastructure probably was not attacked, as the focus of the war seem to fall entirely in the direction of Cardassia. Thus, the Breen losses we know about are all military.

Military losses (rough estimate, 1 being the heaviest, considered in proportion to its empire rather than in absolute numbers):
1.   Cardassia
2.   Klingon
3.   Federation
4.   Romulan
5.   Breen

Infrastructure losses (colonies, bases, home worlds, etc):
1.   Cardassia
2.   Federation
3.   Romulan, Klingon, Breen


   

[Alidar Jarok]

I would put the Klingons in worse shape then the Romulans because it would require tremendous loss of life for a Klingon to overthrow their leader (Today is a good day to die)

You forgot who was hit the least (and yet the most)

The Dominion

Since loss of ships and soldiers means nothing, they came out fine.

The only problem was the founder's disease.

Depending on how much you value them, they could have been hit the worst.

[Tremok]

 I don't care which is better, I hope there both dead.

Anyway, I find your summery of they empires conditions to be reasonable enough. You mentioned in the Romulan section that there fleets appeared to take 'considerabe losses'.

While no doubt all the empires took considerable losses, I don't remember seeing that many Romulans ships loss; certainly nothing compared to the Federation or Klingons.

In the Battle of Chin'Toka we saw the orbital platforms destroy one or two Warbirds. In the retreat from Chin'Toka (enter the Breens), we saw a burning Warbrid wreck.

In What You Leave Behind we hear the Romulan flagship gets destroy and there line is struggling.

Make no mistake, they Romulans relied on a relatively small number of highly powerful warships to get the job done. They didn't have  as many ships as the Federation/Klingons did, and couldn't afford to take the same number of losses.

In fact, we rarelly see the Romulan Warbirds in action during the big fleet battles. But still, I don't remember seeing very many Warbirds getting blown away.
   

[Davey E]

To me the whole DS9 series was good action, but a complete joke from a Stellar Cartagraphy point of view

Its has been said that "Betazed" was the furthest the Dominion pushed into Federation space,
However we also heard that the Romulans liberated "Benzar"
Now i for one do not see how this could of happened, "Benzar" is LY away from Cardassian space, Much much further away than Earth
I do now believe anyway that the Dominion would of been able to take and hold "Benzar" without any kind of supply

If you manage to get hold of the ST Star Charts Book, that was endorsed by Paramount, You,ll see what i mean

The truth is that the Domionion would of had to travel LY across Federation space to attack Romulan or Klingon Space

I remember at the end of the War, The Federation Alliance launched their attack on Cardassian space from Deep Space 375 which is not far from "Trill"
Now "Trill" would of been a much more accessable target for the Dominion that "Benzar" or "Bolarus", and a much more
winable scenario