Topic: Some enticement to get the Feds back on DOE

[KRolling]

Quote:

Quote:
And what would you do if it was another girl???

I mean a straight one???

ACK!!! No offence, but ACK!!!!  

Kim, it seems to me that the value of something is not only the one you associate to the item but also the one people are willing to pay for it....in other words if you get the video clip just exchange it for something else that has value to you.

Might I interest you in the airport video of J'inn (I must warn you that some portion are not suitable for viewing by a young audiance) it is very funny. You should just see J'inn's face when the security guard....well you might just see for yourself.

Thanks
Remiak    

Ah, you talk like a Ferengi!!!!

[TheMaverick]

Quote:

Quote:
Hey we never said that! We still hate you, you dirty cheating, swarming, monkeys! We just get bored with so little targets.  

<sniff> It's good to home  

BTW, I got whole mess of CRC errors, is there a new load in?

Hooch

(BTW, I am not a cheater, all the other names are fine )  

Ok ok... Fine your just dirty then =)

Edit: When were you last on the server it could be possible there is a new pack. Just keep checking Scippy's website.

[Karnak]

IMHO, I don't think there is anything anyone can do to entice more players to DOE until there is a fundamental change in mission script design philosophy.  

Basically, the AI is overdone effectively shutting out newbie, rusty and not-so-good players from the game.  I don't blame many  players from staying away.  The special missions are taking way too long and pop up too frequently.  They should be restricted to neutral hexes or just home hexes or just enemy hexes.  Or, a combination of the above two on the above three.   In my experience, people only want to do long missions (ie. plus 8 minutes) for PvP. If it's against an AI many players may get agitated cuz they think their time is better spent looking for PvP fights which is the most popular reason for playing SFC2 in the first place.  In addition, over-long AI-only missions hamper the abilitly to implement proper dyna strategic play cuz it takes way too long to flip a hex relative to IDSL and AOTK.  In effect, strategic play is neutered.  Compared to IDSL which had similar opening numbers to DOE, there was 10 ten times the mobility in terms of hex munching in the same space of time.
 

[Mog]

Somewhere in the .gf files is a setting to allow many more mission options available to players. At least I've seen that in OP, not so sure about EAW. I haven't looked at EAW .gf files since I did The Aurora Continuum's server, back in the early days. Now if this can be found in the EAW files, and used, players could be offered anywhere from 1 to at least 4 different mission options.

As to what Karnak and J'inn have said above, I also tend to agree. I think my opinions on ai missions are fairly well known by now I'm definitely in the PvP camp, and I view missions (especially those that take a while) against the ai to be almost a waste of my time, whereas a long one against a player or players I find extremely fun (and if it's an enemy heavy unit that i'm engaging, worthwhile strategically  too).

[FPF_TraceyG]

There is a setting in the gf files to offer more missions than just 2 at a time. I'm told though, the game crash if you set this higher than 2 however. It would be nice if we could though.
Now, about these missions, which ones on DOE were considered to be too difficult? Which ones should be considered for a high turnout campaign, and what is an acceptable mission time? On IDSL, all I heard was that missions were too quick... run in, alpha strike, finish off the AI, done in 2 mins (less if you were a Mirak). Now, missions are taking too long?
The variety of skill levels you will find in people playing in a campaign are very spread out. We just can't please everyone. Making a 'medium' difficulty mission is probably the best of the both worlds, but even still, there will always be some players who can do those missions quicker than others. There will always be some players who find even the simplest of missions difficult, and others who just arent challenged by even the difficult missions. So, if then, we aim to cater for the lowest common denominator, with the view to promoting PvP, we could do it with just 3 missions: a patrol, a base assault and a planet assault, thats all you need for the strategic aspects of the game.... LOL!!! It would also be very boring as well. So perhaps we should ask everyone what kind of missions would they like to see in a campaign. Perhaps even try running two servers at once for a single campaign, the easy server, and the 'specialised' server with VC's being combined, I'm sure this has been suggested before.

What I really think though, is that a mission pack for any one campign should be synergistic, a collection of missions that are consistent with respect to each other in regard to prestige payout, difficulty levels (including AI and any strategic theme as part of thie mission), AI matching, and where and how often a mission appears.

[klink]

maybe my perspective as a newbie could be of value. the last starfleet commander-type Star Trek game i played prior to this was in EGA. the theme and interface is where the similarities stop.

The AI is tough, but not so tough that its Impossible. their conservative nature, makes for some long battles, and romulan's can regen their shields FAST... well atleast faster than I've figured out how to do in my starter federation frigate. I've got no PP so, imagine losing every mission and getting a brand new ship then trying to take on a romulan frigate 1v1. with the doubleshot bug, this makes for some wild dancing. especially trying to balance power to stay 10 ahead of the plasma, have shield power to keep the phasers from doing any hull damage, and keep weapon systems online. usually i'm turning phasers on and off to keep engine speed up.

as the double shot plasma will obliterate my systems in one pass (usually accompanied by a multiple mine problem to try and escape from), that leaves me with the high energy turn, fire and run tactic as my only real viable option. i've been trying to get this down, spike the sensor power, and try to get the ship to 'even out' before unleashing the photons. i think this is probably a pretty generic fed strategy against the AI. a couple more tricks i've tried, loading the 1 SH i have with one of those scatter pack things and dropping the 3 mines i have. these are just gimmicks and have never won the battle for me.

anyways, i usually do this act for about 10 mins, with mixed levels of succes. this success has not translated into a 'successfull mission', the result of the encounter, so far, has always been either me running to the warp line or being sucked out the hull into space.

i've not blamed the missions, i think that if i hadn't blown my PP wad on trying to secure a wingman frigate, i could resupply myself and atleast afford some decent missiles and/or fighters for the starter frigate, which would've given me the edge i need in these 1v1 AlliedpatrolB's.

anyways, DOE hasn't chased me away, i've learned ALOT and had fun doing it, despite the 0 pp. the one encounter i had with a human Romulan (Convoy Raid mission) was a blast. I didn't realize he was not an ally until the firing started as it seemed we started within 30 of each other and it was my first time doing thsi mission. i engaged very briefly so that i could get some space between us and make a clean escape, the tactic worked, i tried to just widen the gap a little by firing off some space turtles with red warheads strapped to their back... atleast i think thats what those slowass red things are that come out of my ship.  

wow, long post.

[Kel]

Quote:
There is a setting in the gf files to offer more missions than just 2 at a time. I'm told though, the game crash if you set this higher than 2 however. It would be nice if we could though.
Now, about these missions, which ones on DOE were considered to be too difficult? Which ones should be considered for a high turnout campaign, and what is an acceptable mission time? On IDSL, all I heard was that missions were too quick... run in, alpha strike, finish off the AI, done in 2 mins (less if you were a Mirak). Now, missions are taking too long?
The variety of skill levels you will find in people playing in a campaign are very spread out. We just can't please everyone. Making a 'medium' difficulty mission is probably the best of the both worlds, but even still, there will always be some players who can do those missions quicker than others. There will always be some players who find even the simplest of missions difficult, and others who just arent challenged by even the difficult missions. So, if then, we aim to cater for the lowest common denominator, with the view to promoting PvP, we could do it with just 3 missions: a patrol, a base assault and a planet assault, thats all you need for the strategic aspects of the game.... LOL!!! It would also be very boring as well. So perhaps we should ask everyone what kind of missions would they like to see in a campaign. Perhaps even try running two servers at once for a single campaign, the easy server, and the 'specialised' server with VC's being combined, I'm sure this has been suggested before.

What I really think though, is that a mission pack for any one campign should be synergistic, a collection of missions that are consistent with respect to each other in regard to prestige payout, difficulty levels (including AI and any strategic theme as part of thie mission), AI matching, and where and how often a mission appears.  

I thought you did a good job of addressing this with the two type of patrols... AlliedPatrol A/B, NeutralPatrol A/B, etc.  The 'A' patrol is like the standard Taldren patrol...1 vs 1 with an enemy ship generally equal to or smaller than you.  The mission time for victory should be in the 2-5 minute range for an average player with a modest pp payout for a kill and slightly more for a capture.    

The 'B' patrol was a fleet action...much more challenging leading to longer mission times, but a greater pp payout for kills and even more for captures.  

Players could choose the B variant when needing pp and the A variant when required to flip hexes quickly.  I have seen both of these missions offered in the same hex many times, but not often enough in my opinion.  If we could somehow get both the A and B to appear at the same time, then it would go a long way to appeasing the veteran looking for challange and the newbie looking to survive.  The key is giving players both options consistently in most hexes, along with a 'specialty' mission like prisoner escort, courier intercept or convoy raid occasionally to add some flavor.  

The extra pp payout for a human kill also does a good job of promoting/rewarding PvP.  Those veteran players looking for more PvP could choose the quick 'A' variant to get through the mandatory AI while other players could opt for the 'B' variant.  

If you stop and think about the DOE missions and HOW they could be better implemented instead of ACTUAL implementation, I think we are very close to the mystical balance we all hope to achieve.    

Just my 0.02 worth.

GDA-Kel
Gorn Dragon Alliance
 

[FatherTed]

Please dump the Courier mission. It's a royal pain in the arse.  

[J'inn]

I would say that for a campaign set up that requires a large turn out you need to have a missions mix which is slightly easier than the DOE group.   Perhaps just some tweaks, see below.  Certainly some fo the Vets will get a little bored at times, but they are mostly there for PvP anyways.  Also, even if they find it a little easy (not too easy mind you) they will still play.

If it is at harder than DOE levels,  new players will find it too hard, and here's the key point,  they won't play at all.  

Too Hard:   sucks

Hard:  Fun for the Vets but makes it unplayable for newer or those not so goods "ahem"

Moderate:  Fun for most all.   Some super vets find it easy.  Some pure newbies still can't play.

Easy:   Vets find it mostly easy.  However all players are able to play.  Vets lean more to PvP and the overall strategic picture as opposed to the easy for them tactical picture.

Too Easy:   Dullsville.


So for the large campaign you have two practical choices IMHO:

1)  Somehow get the missions to show up well mixed AND have the PP payout correctly.

or

2)  Set it up for "easy" level.  

For example:

CW 1  -  CW 6 would all have been "Easy" level due to the mission scripts.  (Stock Taldren)  They all had large turnouts.   Yes, we had more players then but the point is everyone could play and have fun.

AoTK was all over the board.

4 powers -  Hard to Too hard.

DOE - Moderate

Also IMHO,   D2 is about overall strategic play.   The tactical battles (AI or PvP) are just a small part of the larger picture.   Now the tactical part has to be fun and interesting.  But if you focus too much challage on the tactical part you overwhelm the strategic part.  

Players want to be able to log on and feel they have accomplished something within at most an hour.  

This gets to missions times.   Which I consider completely different from mission difficulty.

I think DOE is fine.   People are just in shock at how slow it is to fly a plasma boat.   I imagine a lot of snickering coming from the Rom and Gorn vets.

As for the DOE missions.   I think Tracey's are fine in all respects.   Dave's add flavor and I like that.  However due to the number of AI you face in his missions both difficulty and mission time go up.   I'd like to keep them and have the PP payoff jacked up a ton.

That way people can choose.     However, that gets back to setting them up so that one mission doesn't appear 90% of the time.  Right now the courier mission is popping up as the only choice a lot.  That creates a real problem in mission balance.


As with most things,  it is very complicated.   There is no single right answer.  

Everyone should say thank you to those that write missions and set up servers.   It's a convoluted nightmare.

After you say thanks, you can kick them.  <snicker>

 

[Mike H]

Now that the "rust" is diminishing, I do find most of the missions quite challenging, although there are a few that are just way over the top.  I don't like missions that require some kind of "trick" in lieu of solid tactics, and I think there are a couple missions on DOE that fall under that category.

While I like the challenging missions, I think PP payoff leaves a bit to be desired.  If this campaign were going to run for, say a year for example, then I'd say fine.  That would give the average player enough time to work his/her way up to a top-notch ship.  Is this campaign going to run that long??  If the answer is no, then the average player is going to get disinterested really quick.  The average player can't spend the 8 hours a day necessary to get a heavy or dread in a reasonable amount of time (week or two?).  I can put in a few hours at a time, 3 or maybe 4 days a week.  At that rate, I will have a garbage scow by year's end!

Again, if I knew the campaign was going to run a LONG time or roll into another episode (with PP carried over), then I am fine with the way it is.  Otherwise, some tweaks are needed.  

Cheers,
Mike
 

[Karnak]

Quote:

So for the large campaign you have two practical choices IMHO:

1)  Somehow get the missions to show up well mixed AND have the PP payout correctly.

or

2)  Set it up for "easy" level.  

I don't think there is anyway to make the missions well-mixed other than cloning the more popular mission entries in the campaign's MCT file which is more an art than an empirical science.  Ergo, fuhget about trying get a proper mix.  What I can do for ISC Inv. is restrict the hard missions to certain hexes.  One idea I am tossing around is to keep special missions largely restricted to Neutral hexes so as the campaign ages you will see less and less of them in the contested war zones.  If you really like them you can go find yerself some neutral hexes and munch on them.

Quote:

Also IMHO,   D2 is about overall strategic play.   The tactical battles (AI or PvP) are just a small part of the larger picture.   Now the tactical part has to be fun and interesting.  But if you focus too much challage on the tactical part you overwhelm the strategic part.

Players want to be able to log on and feel they have accomplished something within at most an hour.  

This gets to missions times.   Which I consider completely different from mission difficulty.

Agreed.  Some basic patrols that don't go over 5 minutes for the average players should help there.  

Quote:

I think DOE is fine.   People are just in shock at how slow it is to fly a plasma boat.   I imagine a lot of snickering coming from the Rom and Gorn vets.

Frogs are snickering too.  The concept of the PF cruiser like the I-BCV, G-BCHV, R-THV goes a long way to simulating with their PFs, the no-power-cost drone look-a-likes to speed up the fight for plasma races.

Quote:

Everyone should say thank you to those that write missions and set up servers.   It's a convoluted nightmare.

After you say thanks, you can kick them.  <snicker>
 

Also, thank the modders and those people like Jinn that provide helpful feedback so that servers get progressively better.  

After for kicking me. I find that even though poeple are screaming at me they usually have some good reason behind all the rhetoric  that provides useful feedback on a dyna.  

So, scream away...  

[Green]

Quote:
I Everyone should say thank you to those that write missions and set up servers.   It's a convoluted nightmare.  

Thank you.

[FPF_TraceyG]

Ok, so if we get the 'standard' patrols to show up more often, with a sprinkling of specialty missions just for interests sake, we might get something work?

By the way, despite being able to set a mission to only appear in neutral space within a script, its actually the server gf settings that largely determine where a mission will appear. Set them incorrectly and 'enemy' missions will appear in allied space. Also, as Dave will tell you as well, no one, BUT no one, has ever been able to get neutral missions to only appear in neutral space. On DOE, the NEutral patrols I wrote are written to only appear in neutral space, but as everyone has seen, they turn up anywhere. Thankfully, the allied space and enemy space settings within a mission script appear to work, provided you have the right gf settings.

There also appears to be a setting within the mission script that 'appears' (I use the word tentatively) to change the frequency or probability that a mission will appear. Typically for base assault and planet assault missions, this is set higher so that they appear on bases and planets instead of other missions.

[FPF_TraceyG]

And to think this all started up as a April Fool's thread... LOL!!

[Remiak]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
And what would you do if it was another girl???

I mean a straight one???

ACK!!! No offence, but ACK!!!!  

Kim, it seems to me that the value of something is not only the one you associate to the item but also the one people are willing to pay for it....in other words if you get the video clip just exchange it for something else that has value to you.

Might I interest you in the airport video of J'inn (I must warn you that some portion are not suitable for viewing by a young audiance) it is very funny. You should just see J'inn's face when the security guard....well you might just see for yourself.

Thanks
Remiak    

Ah, you talk like a Ferengi!!!!  

LOL, I though the same thing as I was writting those lines. I think the Ferengis are fun. Hoped the comment was somewhat funny as well. Anyways, it is now time to go for my haircut.

Remiak sits on the Barber's chair, everyone knows that Romulan barbers are not choosen for the skills in cutting hair but for their their ability to obtain and dissimilate information.
Remiak> "So did you analyse the picture I gave you in my last appointment?"
barber looking uncomfortable> "Yes, we did.
Remiak>"So tell me, what is she holding in her hand?"
barber> "According to our sources, It is the equivalent of a hand held Mauler...very short range...very messy. It seems she intends to arm the boarding parties of the SSCF Integritus with these."
Remiak remained calm, trying to consider the tactical implications of the introduction of such weapon.
The barber was hesitating, but when prompted, continued: "We have reasons to beleive that if the trials on the Integritus are sucessfull, the Gorns will cite their technology exchange treaty with the Federation and request the blueprints"
Remiak was having shivers in his back at the thought of a dozen Gorn marines boarding his bridge suited in Korma's battledress armed with hand held mauler.....
Remiak> "Just when one thinks, war as brought enough attrocities, things like these come up to prove that more insanity is still possible by so-called civilized beings. This boarders psychlogical warfare!!!"
 
Remiak left the barbershop hoping that the day of the eagle would find its dusk before such weapons could be deployed in a large scale.


Sorry if I continue the joke in this thread. After the day I just had, a little humour was welcomed.

On the serious side of this thread:

IMO the failure to make the plasma carriers work well in DOE while they were intended to replace a fair portion of the ships in our yards make the possible selection very restrictive. We basically play the same few ships.
Adding to that the mission mixte and lack of variety makes a situation where one tends to play the same ship in the same mission over and over.
I agree that The missions difficulty does not help to keep players interested. When playing Roms the gorn are not to be dealt with easily in a fast mission. So some players may find these long and less fun.
At least the Roms can fight the Feds or Gorn for a needed change once in a while. Feds and Gorn did not have a second front to bring in a little variety.

A positive point in favor of balance, neither side has any fast hex flippers.
   
Thanks
Remiak  

[KRolling]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
And what would you do if it was another girl???

I mean a straight one???

ACK!!! No offence, but ACK!!!!  

Kim, it seems to me that the value of something is not only the one you associate to the item but also the one people are willing to pay for it....in other words if you get the video clip just exchange it for something else that has value to you.

Might I interest you in the airport video of J'inn (I must warn you that some portion are not suitable for viewing by a young audiance) it is very funny. You should just see J'inn's face when the security guard....well you might just see for yourself.

Thanks
Remiak    

Ah, you talk like a Ferengi!!!!  

LOL, I though the same thing as I was writting those lines. I think the Ferengis are fun. Hoped the comment was somewhat funny as well. Anyways, it is now time to go for my haircut.

Remiak sits on the Barber's chair, everyone knows that Romulan barbers are not choosen for the skills in cutting hair but for their their ability to obtain and dissimilate information.
Remiak> "So did you analyse the picture I gave you in my last appointment?"
barber looking uncomfortable> "Yes, we did.
Remiak>"So tell me, what is she holding in her hand?"
barber> "According to our sources, It is the equivalent of a hand held Mauler...very short range...very messy. It seems she intends to arm the boarding parties of the SSCF Integritus with these."
Remiak remained calm, trying to consider the tactical implications of the introduction of such weapon.
The barber was hesitating, but when prompted, continued: "We have reasons to beleive that if the trials on the Integritus are sucessfull, the Gorns will cite their technology exchange treaty with the Federation and request the blueprints"
Remiak was having shivers in his back at the thought of a dozen Gorn marines boarding his bridge suited in Korma's battledress armed with hand held mauler.....
Remiak> "Just when one thinks, war as brought enough attrocities, things like these come up to prove that more insanity is still possible by so-called civilized beings. This boarders psychlogical warfare!!!"
 
Remiak left the barbershop hoping that the day of the eagle would find its dusk before such weapons could be deployed in a large scale.


Sorry if I continue the joke in this thread. After the day I just had, a little humour was welcomed.

On the serious side of this thread:

IMO the failure to make the plasma carriers work well in DOE while they were intended to replace a fair portion of the ships in our yards make the possible selection very restrictive. We basically play the same few ships.
Adding to that the mission mixte and lack of variety makes a situation where one tends to play the same ship in the same mission over and over.
I agree that The missions difficulty does not help to keep players interested. When playing Roms the gorn are not to be dealt with easily in a fast mission. So some players may find these long and less fun.
At least the Roms can fight the Feds or Gorn for a needed change once in a while. Feds and Gorn did not have a second front to bring in a little variety.

A positive point in favor of balance, neither side has any fast hex flippers.
   
Thanks
Remiak    

Don't you just love these "quote" buttons??

Funny story, Remiak!!! I just can't believe big the "Rolling Pin" has become!! Hehe!!

Who was it that started it in the first place?? I can't remember.

[Karnak]

Quote:
And to think this all started up as a April Fool's thread... LOL!!  

This is why Max calls me an evil, evil man....errr, Frog    

Things were getting a little boring in this forum.

*flips open calendar book and puts big check mark on week's To-Do list*

Next week, we can all scream about whether SFC3 with the beta patch is any better than SFC2.

Are y'all up for it?

 

[Fluf]

I agree with you JInn 100%.  

Tracey's missions are fine so far except for the occasional imbalance.  Daves missions are tough, take too long and dont give enough PP for the fight, although I enjoy them.

I can tell you flying Rom for my first time in D2 makes me feel like a total newbie.  So I can understand where they come from and how they might react to coming onto a server like this.

Ive lost 16 ships, 5 to PvP and the rest to AI.  That is nuts.  I just got my glicko out of the negatives the other night and its around 500 now.  

Unfortunately, with the mission they way they are now, it doesnt lend to the strategic or tactical D2 I enjoy more.  Im like Jinn.  I want to log on for and hour or two and see what I've accomplished.  Flying Rom, that can mean a whole 2 to 4 missions sometimes, as they can last 30 mins, especially against a Gorn.  Yes I have flown a few 3 min missions. But they are rare.  I dont want to spend all my time doing missions to lower a hex by 2 to 4 DV in and hour.  I want to hex munch, make the enemy react and get in some PvP.  I have seen a battle on the Fed border for 3 hexes last 3 days now.  Not much strategy there.

Missions must be made enjoyable, and the hard ones should be made to reward the pilot with some good PP if he survives.

Oh, and dump the Courier Mission.  I have personally lost 6 ships to this mission, just trying to kill the courier and run.  All for a lousy 50PP.  Its the worst mission in the bunch and shows up more than 50% of the time.

[SOS_Skorzeny]

Quote:
 I want to log on for and hour or two and see what I've accomplished.  Flying Rom, that can mean a whole 2 to 4 missions sometimes, as they can last 30 mins, especially against a Gorn.

 Sounds like life-as-normal for a plasma boat on every server back to Artic.  The ISC are a little faster since they got more firepower.  But the Roms alwyas knnow what it is like to run slow missions up until they spend wads on a really big Dread or something.

At least I've gottne to enjoy my War Eagle to King Eagle this server.

*Skorzeny

[Soreyes]

I don't know Fluf. Im a compleat newbe as to flying Gorn. In fact at one point I was down to flying a FF Escort with only 98pp left. Then a little light went on in my head. I then started to fly and fight better. Now Im up to a G-DD+ with over 2000pp.

About the Courier missions.Well I have flown 4 of them. I won 2 and lost 2. In the one's I lost.I killed every thing but the Courier.I ended up losing 50pp per mission. (Hey when the Plasma hits the Fan tha Courier kinda gets lost )
The two that I won, I collected 300pp for each mission. On one of those missions I had a L-DWD as a AI wingman. Boy did that ship kick some Rom Butt

I forgot who it was out there flying the Rom DN. All I can say is I found you at one point. And  as the band "A Flock Of Seagulls" would sing.  "And I Ran, I Ran So Far Away"