Topic: Moddelors Attention Please (Read 7637 times)

morebs · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2003, 08:19:25 pm »

This is the end of the community as we know it. So if a modder makes a ship complete orignal. Meaning not even based on ST. They have no rights if they release it?

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2003, 10:28:29 pm »

I seem to have caused a firestorm with this annoucement.:)
Yes there are concerns and issues to be dealt with.Thats why it is very important to get the views of all model makers as this effects you more then anyone else.
If you have an opinion that u want expressed then please go to the forum and tell them.

There is a system for security and testing being put together and the more input as to how this should be brought into the "communites".

I beleive only a few will get this at first then everyone after that but its being debated.

I am a programmer but Im not involved in designing this tool.But I am promoting it, and trying to get you and everyone else involvd. "I have taken it upon myself to tell whats going on."

I am well known as a person in the Armada community who honuors his word and can be trusted.

I also "ALWAYS" ask permission from any author for the use of his/her model to use.I think it is the polite way.And I never disrespect anyone.If it wasnt for you guys there would be no models made for anyone.

As with any man-made tool there will be jerks who rip poeple off but they are in the minority.The communities know who does what and they can police themselves.

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #22 on:** March 31, 2003, 10:35:00 pm »

Quote:

This is the end of the community as we know it. So if a modder makes a ship complete orignal. Meaning not even based on ST. They have no rights if they release it?

Oh no its not the end of the community, but it is the end of the community as I knew it. I thought that modelers where respected and/or appreciated by all that modded this and other games. Obviously, this is not the case as evidenced here and the frost works thread.

http://www.frost-works.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2194#2194

Note how gameRevolt, the programmer at "Assimulation Software", states:

Quote:

Personally I am not siding for any side of the debate, but do want to act in the way that the community wants.

then it continues into a long diatribe of point-counterpoints:

Quote:

Realisms

-The modellers won't model if their source meshes can be retrieved like this

+This has been the situation for Star Fleet Command, and it seems to work there

-SFC is unique

+Maybe because the community has adapted to their situation

-Or maybe not, maybe its just the people drawn to that game and that environment

Quote:

Motivation

+You get to use other peoples models as well as them yours. If people are just liberal about their work, we all get more to play with

+After games fade, and modellers leave, models will become lost. It is for the benefit of the modellers and the the public that this isn't allowed to happen

+People will be able to port your models to other games and give you the credit. You'll get more fame and respect, and your work will have come to more

-If I wanted them to have source models, I'd give them them. I want complete control over everything I make: I put in enough time afterall

+Most modellers don't consider to do this, regardless whether they agree or not

-Tough. In the end, its the modellers who have the prominent rights and deserve the last say

+It is the modellers role to protect their own material, through license agreements distributed with the files. It is foolish for them to expect what they release to be used only as was intended. This may be harsh, but this is the way the world works

-That may be so, but the situation was that no one could get the source when I started, and if that changes then I've had my fun, but the future doesn't look bright

Quote:

Technology and Society

+Who are the modellers to declare how technology should be used?

-It is the modellers who make the models, and this technology serves _only_ to remove rights from them. People will not give me proper credit

+Open Source programming (responsible for Linux, Apache, PHP, mySQL...) works with everyone having access to the source code. Although the capability exists to rip programmers off, they believe sharing is more important and have little problems with bad people. Why can't modellers realise that the point is the process, and not the holding of bounty? The true community knows the truth, and you had fun making the models, and learned from it

-Regardless, this lack of respect hurts me. I do this (at least partly) for the respect of the community, and I'm not getting it properly

+Think deeply about the true reasons you do things. Surely it is more about the process than the respect?

See how any point that a modeler might take is preceded by a"-", and the points obviously taken by the author are preceded by a "+".

To me its obvious that AssSoft intends to proceed with this software despite this spin on a supposedly neutral debate. Which is fine, Im all for a multi converter but the atitude summed up here:

Quote:

Although the capability exists to rip programmers off, they believe sharing is more important and have little problems with bad people. Why can't modellers realise that the point is the process, and not the holding of bounty? The true community knows the truth, and you had fun making the models, and learned from it

is borderline communistic. The True Community? The Truth? If your not with us you are against us. Were "bad people". Conform or be cast out! He's no dummy, he knows that modelers are a small minority of "The Community". So why should he be worried about any counter argument from modelers? I'll tell you why. Because the vast majority of the "Community" does appriciate the modelers and the work they do. Past experience here has shown that without a doubt if modelers feel wronged or threatened (NOT the case here) that the rest of the community always shows support on the side of the modelers. This cannot be denied. Thats why gameRevolt spun his arguements in such a way that any counter to them would seem petty and greedy on the behalf of the modeler.

Unfortunately, though all of this seems harmless enough, it sets up a precedent that all modelers have no rights once their model is availble for download. Not only that, but that the modelers work is actually a priviledge for them to do. GameRevolt actually is working to undermine the respect that modelers strive to achieve in order to further his own ends.

Hey dont take my word for it, see for yourself and form your own opinion. Just be sure to read between the lines.

http://www.frost-works.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2194#2194

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 31, 2003, 10:56:03 pm »

I always ask permissions first from the author.I think it is polite.
Even if I had this tool I would continue to do so.I think the majority of people would continue to do this as well.The majority of modders are honest and sincere.

Nothing will really change because of this tool if you really look at it and think.

People can convert any mods today but it is very hard and not everyone has the expensive tools to do it.I can convert sfc to mod now but it takes me about 8 hours of work with max and milkshape.

With this tool it will shorten the time needed to convert and without having to pay for 3ds Max. And moddelors will still be the most admired people there are.

The same sytem that has worked for years ( asking permission first from the author )will still work with this tool and dont let fear of the unknown keep u from an open mind.

Its not designed to rip people off but bring communities together.
I promise Im not a communist but I due tend to lean towards Nationalistic views.

Think about it please.

As for the opnions of Chris Graham aka gamerevolt he is aprogrammer and not a modellor so you have to see his point of view in that way.Moddelors like you and I create things for others to enjoy.I am a programmer as well but this tool is beyond my humble capabilities.

Mackie · « **Reply #24 on:** March 31, 2003, 11:28:29 pm »

i dont understand a bit about this thing here but long as i can continue kitbashing im allright. besides, i dont think this conserns me since im in good relations with 99% of the modelers around so...

Brad Bowermaster · « **Reply #25 on:** March 31, 2003, 11:52:39 pm »

Ok, one thing, very minor. But if you are going to approach modelers with this idea, you may get a better response if you spell the word 'modeler' correctly. Its not Moddelors, its not modellers, its Modelers. Otherwise, it gives the impression that you don't really care since you can't address them correctly.

My view is this. Modelers should have a say over what someone does with their work. The point is, no matter if its copyright material or not, the labor we put into it is not. That is what we are asking respect for. The labor we put into it. We make a model that may take anywhere from 2-3 hours to 2-3 weeks, sometimes months. Excuse us if some of us ask that we be asked before someone takes at the most an hour to modify our days of hardship and slaps their name on it, or that we don't allow anyone to touch it at all. That is our right.

Most of the people in the community are open to kitbashing, we just want to be asked. Why, not because we are egotistical power mongers. Simply so we are informed. We are interested in what people do with our work and how they did it. There are several reasons, but mostly, its COURTESY. It seems a lot of the communities have lost this concept in favor of a more selfish one.

Funny how Korah calls the modeler's behaviors selfish. It seems the selfish behavior can work in several ways. The community has become somewhat selfish, its always gimme gimme gimme, some say thank you and complement, but most download and are content. Then when models get shown but not released, an outcry of being teased and insistant whining for release ensues. No concern for the modeler or why it wasn't released. No respect towards the modeler's wishes that hey, maybe he finished it and it wasn't up to his best work.
An example of the selfishness by some is one I've given before. We banned a member from BCU for porting models without asking permission. A member started a thread stating he has been a part of the community for ~6 months and how we were killing the community by bannig this person. The member that started the thread only had 3 posts. Three posts in 6 months. Seems he really cared about the community, he couldn't even find the time to post compliments to the people he LEEECHED off of. Yes, no offense, but there are some downright LEECHES in all communities.

Mackie · « **Reply #27 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:02:52 am »

now that i arsed me self to read a bit i agree with schtupp, for what i understand about this thing going on here

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #28 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:30:12 am »

Lord Schtupp, Anduril, and other honored members of the community...

I seem to have been misunderstood here. I never said that I do not think anyone should ask or notify a modeler before using their model in other projects. What I said was I do not think (and I also stated this was only my OPINION) that modelers should be able to prevent people from using their work in the same way they used the original game. I also think anyone who says nobody can change their models is concieted ect ect. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in giving credit where credit is due. I personally ask permission to use models, to be polite. You can search this forum and find my requests. Every time I find a model with no readme file, if I use it, I stay on the lookout, so I can give credit to the hard work of the modeler. Like I said in the beginning, I'm a modeler too. I like to be credited for my work. But I don't feel like sending the Gestapo after someone who doesn't ask my permission first.

I guess some people disagree with me, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. The man started this post asking for opinions, and I gave mine. I have an incalculable amount of respect for every single person on this forum who makes SFC models. But I disagree that their excellent creations should be copyrighted. Maybe my opinion will make a difference, maybe not, but I'm making it known the same way you folks are. If my best friend said the same thing, I'd tell him I think he has a concieted and arrogant view, and see if he changes his mind. If not he will still be my best friend. I hope all of you have the same integrity, and do not hold my opinions against me.

Lastly, I again apologize to any I have offended. I get pretty hot headed about certain things, but I don't really mean to insult anyone. I consider all of you my peers, and I hope we can discuss things that spark our passion here without getting under each other's skin.

Mackie · « **Reply #29 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:33:51 am »

korah i get your point dont worry

-although, i never include readmes in zip files, just on the site.

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #30 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:55:32 am »

Totally kool Korah, many thanks for posting that much-needed clearification. I did take pains to not make it personal by quoting you bro.

I do agree with you mostly but it is concievable that a modeler might have a problem with a certain game or publisher ( iknow of two cases right off the bat) so I must respectfully disagree with you there. If it is a control freak modeler then I would agree with you but I cant see that being the case, because I do not know of anybody who is. Maybe you do and I am ignorant in this regard.

Once again thanks Captain Korah, Your website rocks btw

sandman69247 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 01, 2003, 09:49:22 am »

I have no problem with this idea in general, but there are a few things that I must point out; The modelers in this community and others have taken the time and expense to aquire the proper tools to model; The ey have taken the time build a model for the game of their choice. It is NOT conceited to ask that the modeler be informed or asked before ANY conversions are done. While in theory this program sounds good, I fear that it will spark wars like the ones that have hit this forum so many times. Personally, I only model for SFC since I don't have Armada, BC, or the others. If I build a model, release it then a couple months later I happen to decide to get BC and go to the forums there and find someone releasing a model that is clearly mine w/out permission, I'm gonna be highly pissed. I'm afraid that if it is made easier for people to convert models, there will be some major conficts. Please, consider all the points before hand. Maybe a way to lock model so it can't be converted without a password obtained from the modeler. My 2 cents worth.

Marauth · « **Reply #32 on:** April 01, 2003, 10:56:51 am »

Right, time to chip in methinks. As anyone who's seen me post will know - I'm no modeler, I just complement/criticise models being made by others, I occasionally do some kitbashing but none of it ever left my HD (yet) so my opinion is one of the 'talentless masses' - I totally agree with Schtupp, this is not mindlessly bowing at the feet of a great modeler (though he is) but I came to this opinion from witnessing the original flame war (after which P81 left semi-permanently) and because it's just plain manners - if someone doen't want you to modify their work and release it, then you don't bloody release it - modify it for your own personal uses sure, that's your own business, but once you want to release it to others, then you should get the original modeler(s)' permission - if they don't give it, then just use the model for yourself and be content.

chrisofborg · « **Reply #34 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:28:55 pm »

I can't believe this... I am completely neutral. I argued both sides of the argument as strongly as I possibly could (so that the argument would be exagerrated, and I'd get better debate out of it) and consulted everyone I knew on my contact list to try and strengthen the argument on both sides. If I wanted to disrespect modellers and release this tool without consultation, I could have done it a long time ago. Everything relating to modelling so far I have released is to help modellers, and can't be used to reverse engineer (except the SFC import plugin for milkshape, but I only released this knowing that it had always been possible to do the same thing). With my AssimView I have gone out of the way to make it impossible to reverse convert models for the general public: I have gone out of my way to protect modellers interests. The fact is, I have had a constant flow of requests to undo this and release a tool that could convert things back. Likewise I have had requests to maintain security: which is why I am trying to get the opinion of those who matter most... the people who actually make the models. You'll notice in the poll I particularly made sure it was clear which votes are from modellers (the votes I will respect more) and which are not: I expected a big skew showing me that people who want the ability aren't modellers and just want to be able to mess with your work.

"The true community knows the truth" -- You have completely flipped this argument. It was meant to be understood as "people who rip modellers off won't get away with it because fellow modellers will know who originated the model". I don't see anything extreme there. The + points mean "plus to releasing the tool" and the - means "against releasing the tool". Nothing else. + does not mean me. - does not mean me. You will notice I made a particular post in the thread after what I saw as an extreme "pro release" post to get someone with the opposite opinion to express it as strongly -- if you (Lord Schtupp) were to concentrate on this rather than insulting me as a communist I would have a lot more respect for you.

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:38:10 pm »

My point is the same system for asking permssions for the modelors will still work with this tool.
It will just make it easier for people who don't have alot of money like me or others to be able to share our fun and learn more about what we do.

Anyone who leeches, steals, rips off, doesnt ask permssion, doesnt notify the creator of the models should be publicly condemned just like it is now.
That is the best way I can put it.

I apologise for not spelling modelors correctly.I actually pride myself in my spelling.I dont think theres many who cares about spelling as much as I. And thats another topic not relevant.I think I have expressed my respect to everyone.

As for gamerevolts statements, you have to judge for yourself.
I know him to be someone who has kept his word to me and helped "everyone" greatly.

Lord Schtupp:
Your concerns and evryone else's is respected, that's why I'm here to inform and clarify.Even smooth over feelings as this is really important to me.gamerevolt is a programmer not a modelor so his perspective is different then ours.

I agree 99% of the time this tool just like anyother wil be used responsibly.When that 1% doesn't obey the unspoken rules then we all know what to do.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #37 on:** April 01, 2003, 03:47:07 pm »

The last word I'll contribute to this discussion is that we should not lose sight of the fact that this topic is all about a new tool to convert models to new formats, not about what rights model makers have. Now that all this has come to pass, I wish that ChrisofBorg had just released the tool to the public at large without any discussion beforehand. This commuity is fully capable of policing itself with regard to releasing models and kitbashes. I doubt now that any of this discussion was actually necessarry, at least in how it applies to this new conversion tool.

chrisofborg · « **Reply #38 on:** April 01, 2003, 04:30:20 pm »

Yes, this isn't really about permissions or rights. Its about whether a tool should be released that can empower people, whether for good or bad.

I do think that the debate is necessary though. Whilst the SFC community has developed a maturity, this is about other games like Armada and Bridge Commander which have always pretty much been protected. I didn't mean to specifically bring it here.

anduril · « **Reply #39 on:** April 01, 2003, 05:21:08 pm »

My participation stemmed directly from the first reply to this thread in which it was stated that if for some reason I decided I did not want someone to change a model I released I was a hypocrite.

Now Chris, you come back with this a couple posts above this one.

"No, you will find that I have actually said how works are copyright to their author. Even if it is based on someone elses copyright, anything original in your own work is absolutely of your own holding."

Which I have always believed to be true based on things I have read. And based on that it is LEGAL to deny someone the right to change what you have done. Which of course doesn't mean that they are going to listen to you.

I also was of the opinion what you said in the frostworks post was to the effect of what we are doing is illegal at it's base. But upon reading further as I had the luxury of there being a number of posts before I got there I see that you went on about intellectual property so I can see how some may feel otherwise.

Which takes us back to the point where we discuss the merits of the program. And if it weren't for the first reply to this thread and some misunderstanding I think you would be seeing mostly ....

Two thumbs up.

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Topic: Moddelors Attention Please (Read 7637 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

morebs

Bubba91873

Lord Schtupp

Bubba91873

Mackie

Brad Bowermaster

Lord Schtupp

Mackie

Captain KoraH

Mackie

Lord Schtupp

sandman69247

Marauth

Lord Schtupp

chrisofborg

Bubba91873

chrisofborg

Captain KoraH

chrisofborg

anduril

Topic: Moddelors Attention Please (Read 7637 times)