Topic: Moddelors Attention Please (Read 7100 times)

Bubba91873 · « **on:** March 30, 2003, 09:44:13 am »

Moderators please sticky this for a few days.

http://www.frost-works.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2194#2194

Please go to this thread at www.Frost-Works.com and fully read the thread by me and Chris Graham and Rob Arnold (www.assimsoft.com).
And vote.

This is a thread for implementing a multi-format model convertor into the community and protecting the model authors rights.

Your opinions matter and we need your imput into this.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2003, 01:50:45 pm »

My point of view may not be popular with some, but I make up my mind about this subject based on a LOT of personal experiences. I am a modeler and modder of SFC BTW.

My Personal Opinion
It is arrgant, audacious, conceited, pompous, and ignorant for any maker of BC, SFC or Armada models to think they should have control over how their models are used.

Legal implications
FACT: Any models made specifically for use with the games SFC, BC and Armada by non-contracted, non-authorized, non-employees are not technically legal to distribute. The respective owners of that intellectual property concerning the game title and basic game idea is being infringed upon by anyone who makes unauthorized add-ons or modifications to the game without the express permission of the game manufacturer and owner. NONE of the games' owners mentioned above have given EXPRESS PERMISSION to modify their games in any way. Therefore, making an SFC model (for instance) is technically illegal. The fact that these companies choose to allow and even encourage the making of models and mods DOES NOT imply that they are giving you legal permission to do so. At any time the owners of the SFC title may sue you for making a mod for their game. It is their legal right to do so. Based on this fact, there is no grounds for a model maker or modder to deny anyone the permission to do anything with their product.

Social implications
Any model maker who releases his work to the public free of charge really has no reason to gripe about his model being converted and changed in any way to any extent as long as that person does not SELL the outcome, because his work is considdered FREEWARE and the software and source material he used to make the model is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. On the other hand, if the model maker SELLS his work (which is also illegal) then he would have grounds for control over his property, which unfortunately for him, is not really his in the first place, since the license agreement we all agree to in the install of the games says implicitly that the company who owns the game does not allow use of their registered trademarks without express permission. See the above legal implications regarding this.

Therefore, the fact that the game companies allow us to modify their games in good faith without legal constraints (and that actually benefits them) should not be impinged upon by concieted model makers who find their own time worth more than someone elses, even though they seem to be fine with giving away their work for free...

Captain KoraH

G_Kane · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2003, 02:01:56 pm »

you tell them Korah!!!!

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2003, 02:23:35 pm »

My apoligises, I should have informed u guys first about the registration to this forum at www.frost-works.com.

Chris Graham aka gamerevolt the maker of the assimviewer and founder of www.assimsoft.com wishes to make or help another person who is interested in making a universal model convertor with certain securities.

We wish to have imput for this from moddelors from both A2 and SFC to BC or anyother game format.

We want this to be a tactful and informative debate.No need for hositility.We hope that you register at the forum and give us constructive advice and critisism.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2003, 03:55:33 pm »

I appologize for the strong language, but SFC modding and modeling is something that I'm very passionate about, and anything that threatens the creativity of the community such as censorship the likes of which are being discussed here offends me greatly.

anduril · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2003, 04:02:49 pm »

I guess I fall into that category then.

I would like to think I have some control over what I produce even if it is something as simple as to request a courtesy email asking permission to modify/release work that changes what I have spent my time on.

Sounds strikingly like something Raven was implicating in the background during a minor tiff in the BC forums.

Pataflafla · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2003, 04:44:23 pm »

I posted there. Some of you might want to take a look. I think it sums up what we're about here when we're at our best.

_________________________

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 30, 2003, 04:53:50 pm »

We dont wont to implement any kind of censorship.In fact we want to bridge all gaming formats and make modding truly free.

I beleive in the present idea being floated around that this program will be freeware and avalable to all.

And there may be a capability to encrypt your work and not allot it to be modified if you so wished but thats in theory at present.

Please all sfc modders reply and voice your opinion.

Chris Graham has already given the communities plugins and a superb model viewer for us.Now he wants to go the next step and bring to us a truly revoltionary tool.A model convertor to any format within reason.

Raven Night · « **Reply #8 on:** March 30, 2003, 06:19:24 pm »

Well, I believe that Korah mirrors the opinions of most with respect to public domain. We encourage the seeking of permissions, but do not lay demands to that respect, because the designs being used are copyrighted by Paramount, and the modeler did not receive specific permission to use thier design to make a model for release, free or for pay.

Now, one point I would like to make, is that selling models is hardly illegal. People sell them all the time. I pay for models that are based on my concepts, and I would like to see some company try to lay copyright on the designs, considering that they came out of my head

EXACT copies of copyrighted material, or models that would violate intellectual laws, would not have rights with respect to restriction of usage. If you design a varient of the Soveriegn for sale, and you do not call it the Soveriegn, you are certainly within your rights to sell it. It can also be said that the name does not have a specific copyright, so you could even sell a version of the original work, as long as it was identical to the original. Imagine if every vehicle manufacturer would have to pay copyright usage to Ford for inventing the automobile! There is a certain level of flexibility here. As long as your practices do not limit profits for the copyright company, they will usually allow it.

..........but they do reserve all rights.

Also remember that there are lots of modding products out there that were not authorized by the original game designers, but are sold for profit anyway. Quake editors in particular spawned sales of the game long after the released version lost its luster, increasing total sales for ID.

I think that a cross program is a good idea for model making. We are already developing a product for that, a version of Milkshape that will import Armada, BC, SFC and KA models for alterations. The program is open source, and will have to be reviewed by Chumblasoft before release.

Companies recognize that modding increases sales, and keeps the programs popular, opening the way to new version releases for profit that are not as dependant on market fluctuations.

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2003, 08:14:43 pm »

Pounding the world like a battering ram
Forging the furnace for the final grand slam
Chopping away at the source soon the course will be done
Leaving a trail of destruction that's second to none

Hammering anvils straining muscle and might
Shattering blows crashing browbeating fright
Fast devastating and desolisating the curse
Blasting the cannons of truth through each man of this earth

Wielding the axe comes the one culmination
That's always seemed certain to bring down the curtain on greed

Sifting the good from the bad it's the age for the rage
Of the dogs which must fall to the just and be free

Now grate for the vandals who trampled and sampled
Till this place conditioned brought forth demolition to war

The slipping and sliding corrosive subsiding
That withered and wained till the world seemed all drained fills the bay

James Formo · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2003, 09:48:15 pm »

yawn

Gowdy · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2003, 10:00:12 pm »

No kinding.

Just give a sleeping pill. That'll probably work faster.

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2003, 10:46:59 pm »

Thats the best that you can offer? Im so dissapointed...

James Formo · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2003, 10:50:41 pm »

Quote:

Thats the best that you can offer? Im so dissapointed...

I wasn't yawning cause of your poem btw- I actually quite like it though I am not sure what it means. Poems are like that

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2003, 11:01:42 pm »

lol JF its ok - I wouldnt hold a bad opinion of you if you crossed me, unlike some others here that would.

We were asked for an opinion and thats how I felt about the contents of this thread. I leave the interpetation up to the reader....

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2003, 08:08:57 am »

This convertor which is in beta stages, isnt meant to rip anyone off.It being worked on with securities in mind.
It will allow people who do not have access to expensive programs like 3ds max or paint programs to port models to other game formats.
This means that old models will not die and there will be a much larger selection of models to use once this becomes reality.
Armada, SFC, BC are currently being supported.More will be added once texture handling has been taken care of.

Chris Graham aka gamerevolt and Rob Arnold of www.assimsoft.com that brought us other goodies deserve our support.

Khalee · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2003, 08:25:15 am »

Well then I wish you guys luck with your converter. But if your wanting programing help Im no programer, and barely a modeler, as it takes me a month sometimes to get one done.

But again good luck on your program.

anduril · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2003, 08:59:06 am »

Evidently there are people who don't believe that the modelers have any rights to their work. Even something as simple as taking no for an answer when they ask if it can be modified and released. Which would be considered a courtesy. Using copywrites as an excuse, or saying a game company is doing everybody a favor by not going after them when they make models or mods that enhance a game and may ultimately enhance the sales of the game is about the lamest excuse I've heard on this subject. If you go by the reasoning that it's freeware if a model has been released to the public then once a company has released a sdk it becomes freeware and modding a game is openly allowed. They have the option of not releasing a sdk. Which of course generally leads to a very short shelf live and or attention span by it's fans. Raven brought up Quake. Do you think many people would be playing quake 3 any more if it wasn't modable and ID didn't release the tools necessary? It's just about the only game I play and it's been out quite a while.

Going by some of the responses there are people who would be reckless with this tool. I personally would release it to a few and then expand the circle of people as time goes on.

And what a wonderful product to get more attention to frostworks and their projects.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2003, 12:32:31 pm »

First, any product that includes the name Star Trek, or any other copyrighted Paramount words, is not legal to change or even make out of ideas in your head. Just because the idea for a new star trek ship came out of your head, doesn't mean it's not infringing upon the Star Trek copyright. That idea is simply ludicrous. Let me tell you that people get sued in civil court all the time for marketing something that is "too similar" to something that's already copyrighted. If you need concrete proof that my belief in this area is true, then look no further than the readme file included in almost every fan made SFC model. It will include a lot of nicely worded disclaimers that are intended to shield the maker from attack by Paramount. No matter how many people disagree that they eat oats, if they all eat oats, then the one guy who says "You eat oats" is right and everyone else is wrong. So no matter how many of you say "making star trek content is not illegal", it still is illegal. The fact that nobody is breaking down your door to put you in handcuffs does not make it legal. Lets grow up now, ok?

That said,

My personal opinion differs from some, in that I do not believe any maker of SFC, BC or Armada type ship models has the right to make them, and then tell anyone they cannot be changed in any way. It's hipocritical and concieted in my opinion, to take a game that says "please modify me to suit you" and make a mod/model that nobody is allowed to change. The modelers would not have been allowed to make the model in the first place if the game company had taken that stance. The game company Is saying "please come modify the game, maybe it will sell longer" and that's a great way for game companies to be. But for a modeler or mod maker to place restrictions on their work... they don't mind warping someone eleses' material, but nobody should touch theirs? WTF? Who in their right mind would stand up for that kind of hipocracy?

I'm not trying to start any arguments, and I want to make it clear that this project is really a step forward for the community in my opinion. It has long been the dream of many to take models from one game and put them into another. But the censorship part I do not like at all. I hope I'm making it clear that this part of the project has not been thought out enough, and that reason be allowed to prevail over selfishness.

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2003, 06:59:42 pm »

So what we (Real Modelers) are doing is illegal then huh? Making models for SFC and offering them for download is illegal - that is what you are saying, right?

Just wanted to know...

morebs · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2003, 08:19:25 pm »

This is the end of the community as we know it. So if a modder makes a ship complete orignal. Meaning not even based on ST. They have no rights if they release it?

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2003, 10:28:29 pm »

I seem to have caused a firestorm with this annoucement.:)
Yes there are concerns and issues to be dealt with.Thats why it is very important to get the views of all model makers as this effects you more then anyone else.
If you have an opinion that u want expressed then please go to the forum and tell them.

There is a system for security and testing being put together and the more input as to how this should be brought into the "communites".

I beleive only a few will get this at first then everyone after that but its being debated.

I am a programmer but Im not involved in designing this tool.But I am promoting it, and trying to get you and everyone else involvd. "I have taken it upon myself to tell whats going on."

I am well known as a person in the Armada community who honuors his word and can be trusted.

I also "ALWAYS" ask permission from any author for the use of his/her model to use.I think it is the polite way.And I never disrespect anyone.If it wasnt for you guys there would be no models made for anyone.

As with any man-made tool there will be jerks who rip poeple off but they are in the minority.The communities know who does what and they can police themselves.

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 31, 2003, 10:56:03 pm »

I always ask permissions first from the author.I think it is polite.
Even if I had this tool I would continue to do so.I think the majority of people would continue to do this as well.The majority of modders are honest and sincere.

Nothing will really change because of this tool if you really look at it and think.

People can convert any mods today but it is very hard and not everyone has the expensive tools to do it.I can convert sfc to mod now but it takes me about 8 hours of work with max and milkshape.

With this tool it will shorten the time needed to convert and without having to pay for 3ds Max. And moddelors will still be the most admired people there are.

The same sytem that has worked for years ( asking permission first from the author )will still work with this tool and dont let fear of the unknown keep u from an open mind.

Its not designed to rip people off but bring communities together.
I promise Im not a communist but I due tend to lean towards Nationalistic views.

Think about it please.

As for the opnions of Chris Graham aka gamerevolt he is aprogrammer and not a modellor so you have to see his point of view in that way.Moddelors like you and I create things for others to enjoy.I am a programmer as well but this tool is beyond my humble capabilities.

Mackie · « **Reply #24 on:** March 31, 2003, 11:28:29 pm »

i dont understand a bit about this thing here but long as i can continue kitbashing im allright. besides, i dont think this conserns me since im in good relations with 99% of the modelers around so...

Brad Bowermaster · « **Reply #25 on:** March 31, 2003, 11:52:39 pm »

Ok, one thing, very minor. But if you are going to approach modelers with this idea, you may get a better response if you spell the word 'modeler' correctly. Its not Moddelors, its not modellers, its Modelers. Otherwise, it gives the impression that you don't really care since you can't address them correctly.

My view is this. Modelers should have a say over what someone does with their work. The point is, no matter if its copyright material or not, the labor we put into it is not. That is what we are asking respect for. The labor we put into it. We make a model that may take anywhere from 2-3 hours to 2-3 weeks, sometimes months. Excuse us if some of us ask that we be asked before someone takes at the most an hour to modify our days of hardship and slaps their name on it, or that we don't allow anyone to touch it at all. That is our right.

Most of the people in the community are open to kitbashing, we just want to be asked. Why, not because we are egotistical power mongers. Simply so we are informed. We are interested in what people do with our work and how they did it. There are several reasons, but mostly, its COURTESY. It seems a lot of the communities have lost this concept in favor of a more selfish one.

Funny how Korah calls the modeler's behaviors selfish. It seems the selfish behavior can work in several ways. The community has become somewhat selfish, its always gimme gimme gimme, some say thank you and complement, but most download and are content. Then when models get shown but not released, an outcry of being teased and insistant whining for release ensues. No concern for the modeler or why it wasn't released. No respect towards the modeler's wishes that hey, maybe he finished it and it wasn't up to his best work.
An example of the selfishness by some is one I've given before. We banned a member from BCU for porting models without asking permission. A member started a thread stating he has been a part of the community for ~6 months and how we were killing the community by bannig this person. The member that started the thread only had 3 posts. Three posts in 6 months. Seems he really cared about the community, he couldn't even find the time to post compliments to the people he LEEECHED off of. Yes, no offense, but there are some downright LEECHES in all communities.

Mackie · « **Reply #27 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:02:52 am »

now that i arsed me self to read a bit i agree with schtupp, for what i understand about this thing going on here

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #28 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:30:12 am »

Lord Schtupp, Anduril, and other honored members of the community...

I seem to have been misunderstood here. I never said that I do not think anyone should ask or notify a modeler before using their model in other projects. What I said was I do not think (and I also stated this was only my OPINION) that modelers should be able to prevent people from using their work in the same way they used the original game. I also think anyone who says nobody can change their models is concieted ect ect. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in giving credit where credit is due. I personally ask permission to use models, to be polite. You can search this forum and find my requests. Every time I find a model with no readme file, if I use it, I stay on the lookout, so I can give credit to the hard work of the modeler. Like I said in the beginning, I'm a modeler too. I like to be credited for my work. But I don't feel like sending the Gestapo after someone who doesn't ask my permission first.

I guess some people disagree with me, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. The man started this post asking for opinions, and I gave mine. I have an incalculable amount of respect for every single person on this forum who makes SFC models. But I disagree that their excellent creations should be copyrighted. Maybe my opinion will make a difference, maybe not, but I'm making it known the same way you folks are. If my best friend said the same thing, I'd tell him I think he has a concieted and arrogant view, and see if he changes his mind. If not he will still be my best friend. I hope all of you have the same integrity, and do not hold my opinions against me.

Lastly, I again apologize to any I have offended. I get pretty hot headed about certain things, but I don't really mean to insult anyone. I consider all of you my peers, and I hope we can discuss things that spark our passion here without getting under each other's skin.

Mackie · « **Reply #29 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:33:51 am »

korah i get your point dont worry

-although, i never include readmes in zip files, just on the site.

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #30 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:55:32 am »

Totally kool Korah, many thanks for posting that much-needed clearification. I did take pains to not make it personal by quoting you bro.

I do agree with you mostly but it is concievable that a modeler might have a problem with a certain game or publisher ( iknow of two cases right off the bat) so I must respectfully disagree with you there. If it is a control freak modeler then I would agree with you but I cant see that being the case, because I do not know of anybody who is. Maybe you do and I am ignorant in this regard.

Once again thanks Captain Korah, Your website rocks btw

sandman69247 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 01, 2003, 09:49:22 am »

I have no problem with this idea in general, but there are a few things that I must point out; The modelers in this community and others have taken the time and expense to aquire the proper tools to model; The ey have taken the time build a model for the game of their choice. It is NOT conceited to ask that the modeler be informed or asked before ANY conversions are done. While in theory this program sounds good, I fear that it will spark wars like the ones that have hit this forum so many times. Personally, I only model for SFC since I don't have Armada, BC, or the others. If I build a model, release it then a couple months later I happen to decide to get BC and go to the forums there and find someone releasing a model that is clearly mine w/out permission, I'm gonna be highly pissed. I'm afraid that if it is made easier for people to convert models, there will be some major conficts. Please, consider all the points before hand. Maybe a way to lock model so it can't be converted without a password obtained from the modeler. My 2 cents worth.

Marauth · « **Reply #32 on:** April 01, 2003, 10:56:51 am »

Right, time to chip in methinks. As anyone who's seen me post will know - I'm no modeler, I just complement/criticise models being made by others, I occasionally do some kitbashing but none of it ever left my HD (yet) so my opinion is one of the 'talentless masses' - I totally agree with Schtupp, this is not mindlessly bowing at the feet of a great modeler (though he is) but I came to this opinion from witnessing the original flame war (after which P81 left semi-permanently) and because it's just plain manners - if someone doen't want you to modify their work and release it, then you don't bloody release it - modify it for your own personal uses sure, that's your own business, but once you want to release it to others, then you should get the original modeler(s)' permission - if they don't give it, then just use the model for yourself and be content.

chrisofborg · « **Reply #34 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:28:55 pm »

I can't believe this... I am completely neutral. I argued both sides of the argument as strongly as I possibly could (so that the argument would be exagerrated, and I'd get better debate out of it) and consulted everyone I knew on my contact list to try and strengthen the argument on both sides. If I wanted to disrespect modellers and release this tool without consultation, I could have done it a long time ago. Everything relating to modelling so far I have released is to help modellers, and can't be used to reverse engineer (except the SFC import plugin for milkshape, but I only released this knowing that it had always been possible to do the same thing). With my AssimView I have gone out of the way to make it impossible to reverse convert models for the general public: I have gone out of my way to protect modellers interests. The fact is, I have had a constant flow of requests to undo this and release a tool that could convert things back. Likewise I have had requests to maintain security: which is why I am trying to get the opinion of those who matter most... the people who actually make the models. You'll notice in the poll I particularly made sure it was clear which votes are from modellers (the votes I will respect more) and which are not: I expected a big skew showing me that people who want the ability aren't modellers and just want to be able to mess with your work.

"The true community knows the truth" -- You have completely flipped this argument. It was meant to be understood as "people who rip modellers off won't get away with it because fellow modellers will know who originated the model". I don't see anything extreme there. The + points mean "plus to releasing the tool" and the - means "against releasing the tool". Nothing else. + does not mean me. - does not mean me. You will notice I made a particular post in the thread after what I saw as an extreme "pro release" post to get someone with the opposite opinion to express it as strongly -- if you (Lord Schtupp) were to concentrate on this rather than insulting me as a communist I would have a lot more respect for you.

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:38:10 pm »

My point is the same system for asking permssions for the modelors will still work with this tool.
It will just make it easier for people who don't have alot of money like me or others to be able to share our fun and learn more about what we do.

Anyone who leeches, steals, rips off, doesnt ask permssion, doesnt notify the creator of the models should be publicly condemned just like it is now.
That is the best way I can put it.

I apologise for not spelling modelors correctly.I actually pride myself in my spelling.I dont think theres many who cares about spelling as much as I. And thats another topic not relevant.I think I have expressed my respect to everyone.

As for gamerevolts statements, you have to judge for yourself.
I know him to be someone who has kept his word to me and helped "everyone" greatly.

Lord Schtupp:
Your concerns and evryone else's is respected, that's why I'm here to inform and clarify.Even smooth over feelings as this is really important to me.gamerevolt is a programmer not a modelor so his perspective is different then ours.

I agree 99% of the time this tool just like anyother wil be used responsibly.When that 1% doesn't obey the unspoken rules then we all know what to do.

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #37 on:** April 01, 2003, 03:47:07 pm »

The last word I'll contribute to this discussion is that we should not lose sight of the fact that this topic is all about a new tool to convert models to new formats, not about what rights model makers have. Now that all this has come to pass, I wish that ChrisofBorg had just released the tool to the public at large without any discussion beforehand. This commuity is fully capable of policing itself with regard to releasing models and kitbashes. I doubt now that any of this discussion was actually necessarry, at least in how it applies to this new conversion tool.

chrisofborg · « **Reply #38 on:** April 01, 2003, 04:30:20 pm »

Yes, this isn't really about permissions or rights. Its about whether a tool should be released that can empower people, whether for good or bad.

I do think that the debate is necessary though. Whilst the SFC community has developed a maturity, this is about other games like Armada and Bridge Commander which have always pretty much been protected. I didn't mean to specifically bring it here.

anduril · « **Reply #39 on:** April 01, 2003, 05:21:08 pm »

My participation stemmed directly from the first reply to this thread in which it was stated that if for some reason I decided I did not want someone to change a model I released I was a hypocrite.

Now Chris, you come back with this a couple posts above this one.

"No, you will find that I have actually said how works are copyright to their author. Even if it is based on someone elses copyright, anything original in your own work is absolutely of your own holding."

Which I have always believed to be true based on things I have read. And based on that it is LEGAL to deny someone the right to change what you have done. Which of course doesn't mean that they are going to listen to you.

I also was of the opinion what you said in the frostworks post was to the effect of what we are doing is illegal at it's base. But upon reading further as I had the luxury of there being a number of posts before I got there I see that you went on about intellectual property so I can see how some may feel otherwise.

Which takes us back to the point where we discuss the merits of the program. And if it weren't for the first reply to this thread and some misunderstanding I think you would be seeing mostly ....

Two thumbs up.

Kevin Arisa · « **Reply #40 on:** April 01, 2003, 07:49:38 pm »

I am confused. I don't understand what the big fuss is about. You would think that the modelers would be pleased to see their work being enjoyed by someone, regardless of where and for what game it is being used. I mean, that is why they release stuff to begin with, right? I know that I have some of my own work floating around (for less well known games than the SFC series.) Whenever I see something familiar I'm like: "Hey look at that! Someone converted my starship into a starfighter! Never thought of that!" Sometimes people would use my stuff and not remember who made it. That's fine with me since I just release stuff for people to have fun with. The only thing that would bother me would be for someone else to claim credit for creating it. That is way wrong.

My point in all this being, I think a model converter is a great idea. It opens the door for so many great models to branch out into a much bigger world. I just never thought that it would cause so much of a fuss with people. Personally I would NOT want to know who is doing what with my stuff all the time. I guess it all comes down to one thing: Motivation. What is the modeler expecting from the community for his\her model? Is it something designed for the community to run off and have fun with? Or is it serious as if the model would somehow become tainted by any unauthorized change? The fact that someone would use your model for anything should be seen as the highest form of compliment and a source of pride. As long as your work is being enjoyed, what reason have you not to be happy?

Chris Jones · « **Reply #41 on:** April 01, 2003, 09:09:56 pm »

I for one like the idea of the conversion tool, for my own use, but also see the potential for rip-offs. Example. I could take a newly created SFC ship, port it to BC, and release it myself in BC format. That is just plain wrong. Having worked with models for SFC for about 3 years now I can tell you that if you do something like that, a good part of the community will come down on you, and your popularity will drop. This sort of thing will happen if you release this conversion tool. I have seen it happen without the conversion tool.

Captain Korah brings up a good point in his post. In theory, once a modeler releases something, it is then public domain. It is, however, common courtesy to ask the original modeler for permission to release something you have modified. If you don't release it, mod the hell out of it -- but if you do, and don't get the original author's blessing, you may find yourself without a lot of friends in the community. There is another part of this. In some cases, modelers give permission to do anything you want to thier model, just so long as the original readme is included with the modified model -- and some give blanket permission to include their models in mods. I have permission from several modelers with regard to that.

In summary..

I would love to have a tool like this, and kudos to the people that have the talent to do it. If you convert something to another game and wish to release it in a mod or by itself, common courtesy and common sense dictates you contact the original author first. Chances are they will be honored you like thier ship so much to convert it in the 1st place, but you need to ask. If they say no, respect that and move on. Or make the ship yourself. I for one wish I had the time to sit down and learn max or lightwave.

There is potential for abuse of the tool, so I say any necessary precautions need to be taken. It is not a perfect world.

Chris Jones -- mod maker

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 01, 2003, 09:24:09 pm »

I for one am very new to sfc models.I've been working on converting sfc to a2 with max and milkshape and let me tell u it's not easy at all.
The biggest differences and the most difficulty is the there are alot more textures to work with in sfc as opposed to A2.
A2 model only have maybe 1-2 textures on average. Having alot of experiance in Armada 1 and 2 helps.And I have really gotten into Max only in the last month and a half.

Anything with more then 4 textures is very difficult to work with. I've treid all kinds of combinations from new textures from renders to combining all bitmaps into 1 or 2 tga's and remapping.

Hopefully with this tool, if they can do it, they may be able to place all textures into 1.That would be a Godsend.

I'm very pleased to see that in this debate cooler heads are prevailing.

Im the one responsible for taking it upon myself to go to every modding forum I could find and spread the word.

Dizzy · « **Reply #43 on:** April 02, 2003, 01:25:39 am »

Hopefully, I can bring some perspective to the 'Modelers' who make them and the 'players' who play them and the 'kit bashers' who modify these fantastic models because I am a server designer/host.

These models are used in GSA and D2 for the enjoyment of those using them. However, in my case, I am using the models a few 'modelers' have made in order to enhance the game by offering new races and options for ships never before seen on D2. This adds a whole new elemt to playing the dynaverse...

For me, the 'right' to use these models is greatly appreciated. I can't tell you how thankful I am for Brezgonne making the Tholian models so I can have them as a playabe race in my next server. He took quite a bit of his time to craft them and now they will be used in unison for quite a few people on a collaborative effort to improving this game.

Now for me to change the textures, much like kitbashing the mod, and then calling it my own is reprehensible. It is theft of all the hard work and effort that originaslly went into it and a great disservice to the modeler and his time spent on it.

That being said, if a modeler wants to insure his hard work isnt credited to someone else who happened to change where a warp engine goes and wants to 'encrypt' their work from being kit bashed or modified, then by all means I support them.

Remember, that all they really want is credit. Thats all I want for hosting my next server should my ideas show up in future campaigns. I dont want Mr. X comming by and taking my ideas, changing a cpl things and saying its now his creation/idea.

I just want recognition for the work.

I am quite honestly positive that should a kitbasher want to modify someone elses work, then the modeler would be happy to allow it if they give credit where it is due. Should the control factor be encription, so be it.

Encription is just a way of saying, "Hey! I did all the hard work, give me credit!".

Do I make any sense?

Cleeve · « **Reply #47 on:** April 02, 2003, 10:06:31 am »

Hmmm. The age-old topic.
A couple points:

1. PARAMOUNT OWNS STAR TREK, NOT OUR MODELS
If I make a perfect reproduction of the Enterprise, Paramount has no rights to it and can NOT use it without the modeller's permission. Nor would they try to without permission.
As for our use, it is considered "Art". There is some grey area there, but from what I've researched Paramount has no grounds to launch lawsuits against modeller's. That doesn't mean they CAN'T... I mean, our legal system says we can launch a civil suit against anyone for anything. But to be successful in a civil suit, Paramount has to do a few things:

- Prove our model is a copy of their intellectual property
- Prove it has lost them revenue or damaged their reputation
- Convince a judge that they have grounds for getting that revenue/damages from the modeller

Good luck convincing a judge of these 3 points when a modeller is handing out his models for free, or even charging a couple hundred bucks for them.
If you start making a TV show around your versions of stsr trek models, of course the judge is going to rule in favor of Paramount though. It's common sense.
And if I make a "star Trek" type ship, that doesn't look like any other star trek ship out there... do you think Paramount is going to successfully convince a judge that there are damages? Good luck! Not to mention that Paramount has learned what a PR nightmare messing with devoted fans can be, when they tried to enforce fan removal of trek materials in the early days of the internet...

2. DISTRIBUTING MODELS ON THE NET FOR DOWNLOAD DOES NOT INDICATE SURRENDER OF RIGHTS
Why do people think everything on the net is freeware? I can download a shareware program, does that make it free? I can download pictures of Anna Kournicova, does that mean I have the rights to reprint that photograph? Of course not.
All it means is that the creator has chosen to distribute their work for free. They still own it. And if someone uses it without their permission, they can be held accountable in civil court.
As with Paramount however, the onus is on the copyright holder (the modeller) to prove:

- Prove the model is a copy of their intellectual property
- Prove it has lost them revenue or damaged their reputation
- Convince a judge that they have grounds for getting that revenue/damages from the content theif

Once again, probably not worth the legal costs to the modeller, especially since they weren't charging for their work in the first place.
They can easily prove that their reputation has been harmed if the kitbasher or converter did not mention thet they used their model in the first place. It's possible that a court might force the defendant to pay damages and a public admission that they stole the work. But what modeller is going to bother paying the legal costs for that? It's not going to happen.

So what can we conclude?
- no-one is going to enforce any copyright for star trek modelling unless it's brutally abused. Like featuring the model in a TV show.
- Modellers own their own work and can sell or distribute it without fear of legal repurcussion, while retaining rights
- People cannot legally kitbash without permission, but that's not going to stop them from doing so because it's pretty much uninforcable

But I've gotta say, a jackass who figures he can redistribute someone else's work without the simple courtesy of asking them should be drawn and quartered, or at least ostracized by the community.

[/end of rant]

chrisofborg · « **Reply #48 on:** April 02, 2003, 10:51:41 am »

I think all that Cleeve said is correct and very well put. The grey area thing is a bit dodgy (what exactly counts as fair use), but its true that unless people really get under Paramounts nose that we are just fine (it applies to my work on the assimsoft game trilogy too).

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #49 on:** April 02, 2003, 12:37:06 pm »

I had written a long post about some recent replies, but I just can't condone even more pointless debate on this topic.

I will say that Cleeve is wrong about modelers owning their product. If you release the model in .mod format, then it belongs to the owner of that proprietary format, not you. A very similar war was waged in the courts over the .jpg image format a number of years ago, resulting in the creation of several alternative image formats. I will also say that Cleeve was right about surrender of rights. I must have been smoking something when I wrote that.

As for Anduril, I really hope you aren't part of the crowd that says nobody can modify their models. That would be a real shame.

anduril · « **Reply #50 on:** April 02, 2003, 12:37:33 pm »

I'm sorry to say Cleeve, but thinking you have rights after releasing your model qualifies you as hypocritical too.

chrisofborg · « **Reply #51 on:** April 02, 2003, 01:02:16 pm »

This is getting very close to another level of explosion. This was never a legal argument and I urge that no law remarks follow. I only suggest that you all make up your own minds in private by studying the wordings on copyright law rather than speculating.

anduril · « **Reply #54 on:** April 02, 2003, 01:11:13 pm »

It's not exploding Chris. Cleeve has not doubt read through the thread and he knows where I'm coming from even without me putting a smiley after my last post.

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #56 on:** April 02, 2003, 01:16:07 pm »

Its not "exploding", not even close, there havnt been any four letter words yet. Thats when primary ignition commences...

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #57 on:** April 02, 2003, 01:27:11 pm »

Not sure why anyone would bother getting so upset over my opinion, but maybe my opinion matters more to people than I think it does

And Cleeve, even though we disagree on some issues, you are an awesome guy to debate with

I hope that Anduril doesn't get too pissed off at me the next time I ask his permission to use a model in something. Hehe!

No primary ignition yet, thank goodness.

Chris, just release the damn thing. It won't enable anything that isn't already possible. Just tell users to make sure to ask the author before they release to the public anything they convert with it. That should be plenty.

anduril · « **Reply #59 on:** April 02, 2003, 01:43:34 pm »

Cleevey! I'm shocked.

The "hypocritical" reference isn't mine. You should know by now I love to lock in on someones words that happen to catch my attention and keep pinging on them.

Cleeve · « **Reply #60 on:** April 02, 2003, 01:49:45 pm »

Damnit Anduril!
Put a smiley on the end of one of those next time!

Throw me a frickin bone!...

Bubba91873 · « **Reply #61 on:** April 02, 2003, 02:07:08 pm »

This debate is now heading in the right direction as far as getting opinions of the use of this new tool by everyone.That was the purpose of me posting here and getting everyones insight, especially the model authors themselves.They carry more weight as they are the driving force for everyone else.

This tool isnt anything new that can't be done now as several of you have pointed out.Conversion of 99% of models is possible with 3ds Max and other programs.This tool should be more accurate of the original authors model as far as his or her original vision is concerned of what the model should look like. And alot easier.

Permssion for doing any conversions for release to the public should always be asked first.

This convertor will only make conversion faster and easier and less expensive. What is unbelievable to me is that a convertor such as this hasn't been done before now.Though I'm sure there have been attempts.

I have already worked with several really good model authors in this community in converting many models to Armada 2 by hand and through my great friends in the Armada community and I hope this continues to be the case.

James Formo · « **Reply #62 on:** April 02, 2003, 05:26:55 pm »

I am not sure why this debate even started. I fully believe that the converter will be released regardless of anyones opinion of it.

chrisofborg · « **Reply #66 on:** April 03, 2003, 03:33:47 am »

lol, hugs and kisses to you all then

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