Topic: Help Taldren with mission ideas.

[Rogue-11z]

In a previous post of mine I asked that taldren and Acti put in new missions for SFC3 in the patch.

I think that maybe they may need a little help in decideding what to put in the patch so hows about ideas for them...

I know you lot, you all have ideas for missions and what you would like to see in the game.

So how about letting taldren know?

Post your ideas here and lets see what we can do to influence what happens in the patch...


Rogue

 

[SirWilliam]

Personally I'd like to see them concentrate on the bug/stability issues before devoting any time to additional scenarios; that said however I would love to one day see some of the old missions like in EAW, for instance "The Surprise Reversed," and the old ambush scenario where you had ships forward and aft at the start of the mission.  Asteroid Base and Shipyard attack/defense were always good.  

Adding anything other than a few "generic" missions would probably be impossible however since anything more would require a storyline which of course is already present in SFC3.  Besides like I said, the changes in the forthcoming patch are supposed to be HUGE and I really think the game will be very different once the majority of the bugs/imbalances are corrected by the patch.  So maybe adding different scenarios won't be necessary for a while.  

[SPQR Renegade001]

While the variety of story driven missions available in the single player game is a nice surprise, the offering in D3 is... lacking. Short of attacking a player/AI ship on the map, the missions are limited to scan and distress call. You can literally fly from homeworld to homeworld without taking a mission.

If there were missions available that didn't challenge the utility of the hard fought capital ships (EAW/OP just generated an endless stream of DNs & BBs to face your DN/BB at every turn), but still challenged the players flying them, and the option was there for the admin to make enemy hex missions mandatory (is it already there?), the strategic depth of the game would grow in leaps and bounds.
 

[Draco]

As a small start we could just have a few modifications on the existing scenarios. When in an enemy hex there can be reversals of the scan and distress call missions. Instead of rushing to the rescue of a freighter the player is the one attacking that lonely lost freighter and another ship comes to the rescue, player controlled, or AI. Or the player could take the role of the ship that attacks the one conducting the scan. Not much I know, but it?s a start.

Opponents if unequal must have a balancing factor. If one side is smaller, said ship must be given an AI wingman for just that mission. Possible scenarios are as follows.

 
 
• Player DD attacks a lone freighter, player BCH responds to repel the DD. The DD is then granted a temp, another DD, or perhaps two DDs as a way of evening things out.
  
   
• Player DN decides to perform a scan mission, hostile player FF happens to wander by at the wrong time and gets caught, FF must engage the DN. DN merrily heads off to the planet while the FF finds himself part of a squadron formed just that second which, including player FF, consists of four FFs.
   

The number and size of the temp wingmen will be determined by the difference in weight between the two player ships. Naturally the smaller player ship will not be granted an AI with a larger ship.  

[ragamer]

This is what I really call a HOT topic. I really found D3 missions simply... repetitive. It takes about 2 hours of
gameplay to MASTER ALL OF THEM to achieve the maximum prestige. I'm not an expert on mission API but I have readed
and understanded most of its key concepts, and I think that could be posible to have really good missions for Dyna.
Before going on examples I wish to be clear in what I consider a "GOOD DYNA MISSION":

- It should be DIFFERENT ALL THE TIME. So Dyna scenarios should add a generous degree of randomness (via random
positions in the script, random support forces, etc).

- They don't have to be balanced. Dyna players should know how to retreat against superior forces.

- They SHOULD ALWAYS BE DESIGNED taking into consideration SIMETRY, to allow Players to be incorporated in any team.

- Prestige rewards/penalties should be based on Result and difficulty. So a death result against overhelming forces
could even turn to a prestige gain if you manage to destroy some enemies.

Now the examples of which scenarios should be there. In all of them I will try to add some direct mechanics related
to the API (please those API experts around, feel free to correct me as much as you like, specially with Dyna
conditions that cannot be detected from inside the mission script):

GENERAL SETUP:
All this missions are best suited for an Empire Controlled Hex (I will try to add more missions for neutral hexes
if I have more time). The following features will appear in ALL the next scenarios (also take into consideration
the final note on AI analysis):

- 1 Defensive Team: Empire which controls the hex. Total (AI + Player) BPV proportional to defensive value of that hex.
Could be nice to include Allies of the empire in this team also but I don't remember if that info from Dyna
is available inside the script. Of course, player BPV could ALWAYS be greater than expected (in that case, no
AI support will be there).
- 1 Offensive Team: Any other Empire ships will be considered offensive. The Total BPV for the offensive team should be
based strictly on the mission script.
- Structures: Directly inherited from Dyna. Each script should ALWAYS take Structures as part of their "Environment".
By Structures I mean any feature of Dyna besides terrain (planets, bases, building docks and any kind of posts).
GENERAL NOTES:
- I consider ANY Dyna entity a Player (either AI controlled or Real Player). Thus Convoys ARE considered in this
scripts as Players and they could appear in any mission as extra BPV (plus additional value related to their strategic
value).
- Following the mission result I add the prestige gained (or lost) by EACH player involved AT THE END OF THE MISSION.
This, of course, are original values that can be altered or scaled based on magnitud (amount of BPV involved) of the
battle.

"Scan Scenario Plus".
This simmulates the gathering info scenario that usually Navy Recon Teams need to solve.

Defensive Team: Standard. (Presented as ordinary Patrol Mission)
Offensive Team: Standard. (Presented as Scan Mission)
Structures: Standard.

NOTES:
1) In this scenario, Structures scanned count as belonging to the defensive team. Planets and other non combat but
strategically important features should be added to the BPV (with big numbers) AFTER ANY AI support is assigned.
2) Scanning results will be only taken into consideration if ANY of the offensive ships withraws from the mission
area. If defending team manages to destroy ALL the scanning team, then it will be a 0% scanned.
3) 50% of the Time an antiwarp field will enclose the sector. Preventing any kind of warp to work. This effect
could be based on the presence of some structures (starbases or planets) or even terrain types.

VICTORY TABLE (Holy S*** I don't know how to add TABS and SPACES)
Scenario Condition..............................Defensive Team Result...........Offensive Team Result
0% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned................Decisive Victory (100)..........Devastating Defeat (-100)
25% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned...............Victory(50).....................Defeat(-50)
50% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned...............Draw(20)........................Draw(20)
75% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned...............Marginal Defeat(-50)............Marginal Victory(50)
100% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned..............Devastating Defeat(-100)........Decisive Victory(100)

COMMENTS: Thus this scenario encloses ALL the previous scan mission plus some patrol.

"Raid Scenario".
This one is the typical lightning attack to weaken defending enemy.

Defensive Team: Standard. (Presented as ordinary Patrol Mission)
Offensive Team: Standard. (Presented as ordinary Raid Mission)
Structures: Standard.

NOTES:
1) In this scenario, non-combat structures should be assigned a BPV based on their strategic value. Planets are not
considered because they cannot be destroyed.
2) In any case Prestige will be awarded even if one of the teams is fully destroyed.

VICTORY TABLE
Scenario Condition                              Defensive Team Result...........Offensive Team Result
0% of Defensive Team BPV Destroyed..............Decisive Victory(400)...........Devastating Defeat(-200)
25% of the Defensive Team BPV Destroyed.........Victory(200)....................Defeat(-100)
50% of the Defensive Team BPV Destroyed.........Draw(50)........................Draw(50)
75% of the Defensive Team BPV Destroyed.........Marginal Defeat(-100)...........Marginal Victory(300)
100% of the Defensive Team BPV Destroyed........Devastating Defeat(-200)........Decisive Victory(600)

COMMENTS: In this one, EXTREME results could be conditioned based also on Surviving BPV. This scenario could turn into
a lot of different situations based on where it is fought.

Well if you think in which hexes this scenarios can happen you will get HOW different they can be, and I'm only talking
about 2 scripts.

A NOTE ON AI: AI in scenarios is coded by events so it is great to simmulate fixed stories but It's a pain to code some
tactically thinking AI. I mean, the main reason why SFC AI is soooo dumb, is because it does not analyze it's
oposition. If at least each AI ship analyzes its target and could answer the following questions:

- It's faster than me?.
- It's has more firepower than me?.
- It's has more range than me?.

Then we could program dynamic behaviours based on combat conditions.

When you code a mission script you ALWAYS have to take into consideration SFC stupid AI. At least supporting AI should
battle to the death, should not collide against planets or structures and should follow detection rules. This are the
minimum requisites to consider AI ships a helpfull "support" for Human Fleets. And sadly, in the actual scenarios, it's
not the case. You can do this test on planet assaults and starbase assaults (it works better with borg weapons): Advance
until you are at range 51 from the nearest defensive structure and stop there reinforcing your front shields. Wait until
the defending AI ships approach you and simply target their warp core and start shooting, you will see what an outstanding
tactic they use (I think that the strange behaviour is due to a patrol area definition coded in the scripts to prevent
AI ships to be lured away from the installations they are supposed to protect). But this behaviour can be represented
with a more sensate decision making algorithm (based on distance from the nearest detected attacker to any protected
structure, so AI ships can turn from pursuing a fleeing enemy to intercept the approaching one. On top of that if
you add some randomness to that decision... You almost have a typical player behaviour).

Well, I did it again... Buff I have to control my posts length. Excuse for my barbaric english.

 

[SirWilliam]

--bump--  

[jdmckinney]

Taldren doesn't need help with mission script ideas. What they need is someone to make the scripts themselves. Ideas are easy -- it's finding the time and desire to do the coding that's hard.

[ragamer]

If the SFC3 API is simmilar to SFC2 API (c++), I could EASILY code the scenario myself... but... I'm not
the game developer so I'm not FORCED to do so. What I think that we have bought a game and Hell I have finished ALL of
the campaigns in 30 game hours WITHOUT ANY EFFORT, so when I turned to the other game options what I found... Scan/Base
Assault/Planetary Assault. Because with the time bug, the conquest campaign it's frozen as soon as you save, so I can
only play 3 missions in Dyna that ARE ALWAYS the same.

Otherwise, I can turn to Multiplayer Dyna, but what I've found there?... Fleet skirmishes without ANY strategic impact
but weaken opposite human players, and what are the compositions of that fleets... Easy, full Hunting equiped ships.
Why?, because the ONLY way to gain prestige is DESTROYING the oponent in battle. So Multi Dyna is drifting slowly to
Battleship vs Battleship encounters, of course after each of the fleet components has been successfull in 30 consecutive
(1600 prestige award) PLANETARY ASSAULTS (that if done properly can be finished in about 8 min. of real play)
to upgrade from the modest starting frigate to the ULTIMATE BATTLESHIP.

This sadly have another nasty effect, think how long does it take for you to WIN a Human vs Human battle and consider
How much prestige do you earn, now establish the prestige gain ratio per minute of play (making the optimistcal assumption
that you WIN ALL the H vs H encounters), k?. Now do the same with a planetary assault mission or even a scan mission
where you capture your oposition instead of destroying it. Well, when you do the numbers, as I have done, you will know
what I call A DESIGN DEFECT.

So you want me now to code mission scripts that could help Multi Dyna?... Ok, I'm a freelancer programmer so pay me to
do so as I have payed taldren for a partially completed job.

(NOTE: I'm a TOTAL SFC fan and I have bought everything (yes OP too :-)) and I will continuing buying. But that cannot
change my way to see PRODUCT QUALITY).

Just my 2 cents

P.S. Excuse my barbaric english.  

[Rogue-11z]

In a previous post of mine I asked that taldren and Acti put in new missions for SFC3 in the patch.

I think that maybe they may need a little help in decideding what to put in the patch so hows about ideas for them...

I know you lot, you all have ideas for missions and what you would like to see in the game.

So how about letting taldren know?

Post your ideas here and lets see what we can do to influence what happens in the patch...


Rogue

 

[SirWilliam]

Personally I'd like to see them concentrate on the bug/stability issues before devoting any time to additional scenarios; that said however I would love to one day see some of the old missions like in EAW, for instance "The Surprise Reversed," and the old ambush scenario where you had ships forward and aft at the start of the mission.  Asteroid Base and Shipyard attack/defense were always good.  

Adding anything other than a few "generic" missions would probably be impossible however since anything more would require a storyline which of course is already present in SFC3.  Besides like I said, the changes in the forthcoming patch are supposed to be HUGE and I really think the game will be very different once the majority of the bugs/imbalances are corrected by the patch.  So maybe adding different scenarios won't be necessary for a while.  

[SPQR Renegade001]

While the variety of story driven missions available in the single player game is a nice surprise, the offering in D3 is... lacking. Short of attacking a player/AI ship on the map, the missions are limited to scan and distress call. You can literally fly from homeworld to homeworld without taking a mission.

If there were missions available that didn't challenge the utility of the hard fought capital ships (EAW/OP just generated an endless stream of DNs & BBs to face your DN/BB at every turn), but still challenged the players flying them, and the option was there for the admin to make enemy hex missions mandatory (is it already there?), the strategic depth of the game would grow in leaps and bounds.
 

[Draco]

As a small start we could just have a few modifications on the existing scenarios. When in an enemy hex there can be reversals of the scan and distress call missions. Instead of rushing to the rescue of a freighter the player is the one attacking that lonely lost freighter and another ship comes to the rescue, player controlled, or AI. Or the player could take the role of the ship that attacks the one conducting the scan. Not much I know, but it?s a start.

Opponents if unequal must have a balancing factor. If one side is smaller, said ship must be given an AI wingman for just that mission. Possible scenarios are as follows.

 
 
• Player DD attacks a lone freighter, player BCH responds to repel the DD. The DD is then granted a temp, another DD, or perhaps two DDs as a way of evening things out.
  
   
• Player DN decides to perform a scan mission, hostile player FF happens to wander by at the wrong time and gets caught, FF must engage the DN. DN merrily heads off to the planet while the FF finds himself part of a squadron formed just that second which, including player FF, consists of four FFs.
   

The number and size of the temp wingmen will be determined by the difference in weight between the two player ships. Naturally the smaller player ship will not be granted an AI with a larger ship.  

[ragamer]

This is what I really call a HOT topic. I really found D3 missions simply... repetitive. It takes about 2 hours of
gameplay to MASTER ALL OF THEM to achieve the maximum prestige. I'm not an expert on mission API but I have readed
and understanded most of its key concepts, and I think that could be posible to have really good missions for Dyna.
Before going on examples I wish to be clear in what I consider a "GOOD DYNA MISSION":

- It should be DIFFERENT ALL THE TIME. So Dyna scenarios should add a generous degree of randomness (via random
positions in the script, random support forces, etc).

- They don't have to be balanced. Dyna players should know how to retreat against superior forces.

- They SHOULD ALWAYS BE DESIGNED taking into consideration SIMETRY, to allow Players to be incorporated in any team.

- Prestige rewards/penalties should be based on Result and difficulty. So a death result against overhelming forces
could even turn to a prestige gain if you manage to destroy some enemies.

Now the examples of which scenarios should be there. In all of them I will try to add some direct mechanics related
to the API (please those API experts around, feel free to correct me as much as you like, specially with Dyna
conditions that cannot be detected from inside the mission script):

GENERAL SETUP:
All this missions are best suited for an Empire Controlled Hex (I will try to add more missions for neutral hexes
if I have more time). The following features will appear in ALL the next scenarios (also take into consideration
the final note on AI analysis):

- 1 Defensive Team: Empire which controls the hex. Total (AI + Player) BPV proportional to defensive value of that hex.
Could be nice to include Allies of the empire in this team also but I don't remember if that info from Dyna
is available inside the script. Of course, player BPV could ALWAYS be greater than expected (in that case, no
AI support will be there).
- 1 Offensive Team: Any other Empire ships will be considered offensive. The Total BPV for the offensive team should be
based strictly on the mission script.
- Structures: Directly inherited from Dyna. Each script should ALWAYS take Structures as part of their "Environment".
By Structures I mean any feature of Dyna besides terrain (planets, bases, building docks and any kind of posts).
GENERAL NOTES:
- I consider ANY Dyna entity a Player (either AI controlled or Real Player). Thus Convoys ARE considered in this
scripts as Players and they could appear in any mission as extra BPV (plus additional value related to their strategic
value).
- Following the mission result I add the prestige gained (or lost) by EACH player involved AT THE END OF THE MISSION.
This, of course, are original values that can be altered or scaled based on magnitud (amount of BPV involved) of the
battle.

"Scan Scenario Plus".
This simmulates the gathering info scenario that usually Navy Recon Teams need to solve.

Defensive Team: Standard. (Presented as ordinary Patrol Mission)
Offensive Team: Standard. (Presented as Scan Mission)
Structures: Standard.

NOTES:
1) In this scenario, Structures scanned count as belonging to the defensive team. Planets and other non combat but
strategically important features should be added to the BPV (with big numbers) AFTER ANY AI support is assigned.
2) Scanning results will be only taken into consideration if ANY of the offensive ships withraws from the mission
area. If defending team manages to destroy ALL the scanning team, then it will be a 0% scanned.
3) 50% of the Time an antiwarp field will enclose the sector. Preventing any kind of warp to work. This effect
could be based on the presence of some structures (starbases or planets) or even terrain types.

VICTORY TABLE (Holy S*** I don't know how to add TABS and SPACES)
Scenario Condition..............................Defensive Team Result...........Offensive Team Result
0% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned................Decisive Victory (100)..........Devastating Defeat (-100)
25% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned...............Victory(50).....................Defeat(-50)
50% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned...............Draw(20)........................Draw(20)
75% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned...............Marginal Defeat(-50)............Marginal Victory(50)
100% of Defensive Team BPV Scanned..............Devastating Defeat(-100)........Decisive Victory(100)

COMMENTS: Thus this scenario encloses ALL the previous scan mission plus some patrol.

"Raid Scenario".
This one is the typical lightning attack to weaken defending enemy.

Defensive Team: Standard. (Presented as ordinary Patrol Mission)
Offensive Team: Standard. (Presented as ordinary Raid Mission)
Structures: Standard.

NOTES:
1) In this scenario, non-combat structures should be assigned a BPV based on their strategic value. Planets are not
considered because they cannot be destroyed.
2) In any case Prestige will be awarded even if one of the teams is fully destroyed.

VICTORY TABLE
Scenario Condition                              Defensive Team Result...........Offensive Team Result
0% of Defensive Team BPV Destroyed..............Decisive Victory(400)...........Devastating Defeat(-200)
25% of the Defensive Team BPV Destroyed.........Victory(200)....................Defeat(-100)
50% of the Defensive Team BPV Destroyed.........Draw(50)........................Draw(50)
75% of the Defensive Team BPV Destroyed.........Marginal Defeat(-100)...........Marginal Victory(300)
100% of the Defensive Team BPV Destroyed........Devastating Defeat(-200)........Decisive Victory(600)

COMMENTS: In this one, EXTREME results could be conditioned based also on Surviving BPV. This scenario could turn into
a lot of different situations based on where it is fought.

Well if you think in which hexes this scenarios can happen you will get HOW different they can be, and I'm only talking
about 2 scripts.

A NOTE ON AI: AI in scenarios is coded by events so it is great to simmulate fixed stories but It's a pain to code some
tactically thinking AI. I mean, the main reason why SFC AI is soooo dumb, is because it does not analyze it's
oposition. If at least each AI ship analyzes its target and could answer the following questions:

- It's faster than me?.
- It's has more firepower than me?.
- It's has more range than me?.

Then we could program dynamic behaviours based on combat conditions.

When you code a mission script you ALWAYS have to take into consideration SFC stupid AI. At least supporting AI should
battle to the death, should not collide against planets or structures and should follow detection rules. This are the
minimum requisites to consider AI ships a helpfull "support" for Human Fleets. And sadly, in the actual scenarios, it's
not the case. You can do this test on planet assaults and starbase assaults (it works better with borg weapons): Advance
until you are at range 51 from the nearest defensive structure and stop there reinforcing your front shields. Wait until
the defending AI ships approach you and simply target their warp core and start shooting, you will see what an outstanding
tactic they use (I think that the strange behaviour is due to a patrol area definition coded in the scripts to prevent
AI ships to be lured away from the installations they are supposed to protect). But this behaviour can be represented
with a more sensate decision making algorithm (based on distance from the nearest detected attacker to any protected
structure, so AI ships can turn from pursuing a fleeing enemy to intercept the approaching one. On top of that if
you add some randomness to that decision... You almost have a typical player behaviour).

Well, I did it again... Buff I have to control my posts length. Excuse for my barbaric english.

 

[SirWilliam]

--bump--  

[jdmckinney]

Taldren doesn't need help with mission script ideas. What they need is someone to make the scripts themselves. Ideas are easy -- it's finding the time and desire to do the coding that's hard.

[ragamer]

If the SFC3 API is simmilar to SFC2 API (c++), I could EASILY code the scenario myself... but... I'm not
the game developer so I'm not FORCED to do so. What I think that we have bought a game and Hell I have finished ALL of
the campaigns in 30 game hours WITHOUT ANY EFFORT, so when I turned to the other game options what I found... Scan/Base
Assault/Planetary Assault. Because with the time bug, the conquest campaign it's frozen as soon as you save, so I can
only play 3 missions in Dyna that ARE ALWAYS the same.

Otherwise, I can turn to Multiplayer Dyna, but what I've found there?... Fleet skirmishes without ANY strategic impact
but weaken opposite human players, and what are the compositions of that fleets... Easy, full Hunting equiped ships.
Why?, because the ONLY way to gain prestige is DESTROYING the oponent in battle. So Multi Dyna is drifting slowly to
Battleship vs Battleship encounters, of course after each of the fleet components has been successfull in 30 consecutive
(1600 prestige award) PLANETARY ASSAULTS (that if done properly can be finished in about 8 min. of real play)
to upgrade from the modest starting frigate to the ULTIMATE BATTLESHIP.

This sadly have another nasty effect, think how long does it take for you to WIN a Human vs Human battle and consider
How much prestige do you earn, now establish the prestige gain ratio per minute of play (making the optimistcal assumption
that you WIN ALL the H vs H encounters), k?. Now do the same with a planetary assault mission or even a scan mission
where you capture your oposition instead of destroying it. Well, when you do the numbers, as I have done, you will know
what I call A DESIGN DEFECT.

So you want me now to code mission scripts that could help Multi Dyna?... Ok, I'm a freelancer programmer so pay me to
do so as I have payed taldren for a partially completed job.

(NOTE: I'm a TOTAL SFC fan and I have bought everything (yes OP too :-)) and I will continuing buying. But that cannot
change my way to see PRODUCT QUALITY).

Just my 2 cents

P.S. Excuse my barbaric english.