Topic: Attention everyone  (Read 15227 times)

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CaptStumpy

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2003, 12:44:32 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

What I am questioning here is the need for formalising anything, when coordination hasn't proved to be a problem yet. SFCX hasn't declared it's inflexibility to scheduling as long as we have an opportunity to have a server. I think we've clearly stated our intentions to run small campaigns between scheduled "long-run" servers. All that is needed here is to coordinate running these between the big boys and everyone will be happy.

Adding a few days to a scheduled launch isn't going to kill a server that is planning a 4 week run-time will it? I don't think so.

If scheduling becomes a problem this is an option...right now I think it can be done with simple common sense, goodwill and compromise.  




I would argue that there is a need for formal communication, and good quality communication at that, in order to achieve just exactly what you have described. When the server schedule went up, I did my best to contact everyone that I knew who had a campaign planned. I was criticised by SFCX for not contacting them, to which I apologise. Hence, the need for formal communication. Who else might spring up out of the woodwork and decide they want to host a campaign? If our aim is to be fair to everyone, then everyone must have their say and be heard, and everyone must be aware of what is going on. Formalising that communication is the most efficient means by which that process can be conducted in a democratic and fair system. The initial server schedule was put together in the fashion you describe above, and it became a flame war. Obviously then, that approach is not sufficient. Without some kind of formalisation to the process, it simply isnt solid enough to stand up. I'm sorry if I sound pesimistic here, but without some kind of order here, I can't see this working at all, and chaos will once again reign throughout D2 server land. This is an opportunity to prevent that from hapenning, and holds server admins accountable for their actions. The choice always belongs to the community, however, so by all means, lets continue this debate. For the record, currently, they 'yes' vote is winning, 13 to 5.  




Tracey, I understand your POV here, but I am also concerned about the objectiveness of anyone put in that position. There is some merit in democracy, but in this case the server admins deserve a little more weight in my opinion due to the fact that they put their own time, money and effort into their servers and deserve the ability to make choices about when and where to run those servers. The players are always free to choose. But seriously why would any sane admin choose to run their server during a major campaign. This knife cuts both ways. Not only would you be doing a diservice to the other guy but you would be hamstringing your own servers popularity at the same time.

I'm all for putting a schedule out with proposed server start dates. But when you get down to choosing who runs and who doesn't by what methodology will this be done? In the past, server start dates were frequently overly optimistic, and often wrong. Screwing up planned campaigns and drawing players away from current ones. I admit I have not followed the EAW campaign schedule enough to know if this is still a problem. But what if a planned major campaign date is missed? Does that push the others back? Does another fill the slot? Does the missed slot put the offender at the end of the line? Who decides this, SFC2.net? If we consider all D2 campaigns, OP and EAW as competing, what happens to the OP players when an EAW only campaign runs? Are you going to axe all existing EAW campaigns when a OP only starts? Since the dominating majority of players are EAW will it mean that EAW servers have precedent over OP ones? These are questions I still haven't seen answered.

I've been around the community for along time, and  to my knowledge there never has been a flame war about server schedules. There has been some grousing and grumbling at times about it but in the end the admins have been pretty darn good about cooperating and not stepping on people's toes. If you are referring to the recent flame war in the OP Campaign Poll thread, there was only one flamer there and he has his own agenda that has more to do with a petty personal vendetta than a "real" scheduling conflict. Any conflict was pretty much imagined by the perpetrator of that one-sided flaming and Castrin clearly stated that we would certainly not conflict with his server schedule and even SFCX members even offered OP assistance. I would hope that such respect would be returned.

If you have a problem it won't be from SFCX.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by CaptStumpy »

jdmckinney

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2003, 12:46:59 pm »
There will never be a case when everyone is happy, either with a schedule or even a choice of who coordinates campaign timing.

Before I go further, I would like to point out the obvious, if unintended, bias toward large campaign design/hosting groups. GFL was barely mentioned above. SFC2.net and SFCX are getting a lot of press, but they aren't, and shouldn't be, the only places to look for campaigns. Frankly, I think there are many issues at play, some of them old biases for or against EAW or OP, or biases for or against certain individuals or groups. If possible, we should shove those all aside before they become flame bait in a well-intentioned discussion.

First, no one "official" schedule needs to be created, though posted schedules would certainly help the players and admins as a frame of reference. There also is no need for a committee. All we really need is a line of open communication for any campaign hosts/admins to coordinate with each other. An forum may or may not serve that purpose, since they tend to lend themselves to flamefests.

I am not a part of the SFC admin mailing list, but I understand a lot of good information sharing has taken place there over the years (it's been THAT long??!!). Perhaps that list, or a scheduling mailing list, would serve the purpose of keeping lines of communication open. The way to subscribe to it should be easily accessible so any new admins or old ones who want to start coordinating plans can join the conversation.

The key is NOT championing the creation of time-block schedule that essentially dictates when admins can run campaigns, or how long they have to wait for a chance. For one thing, the fewer simultaneous campaigns available, the less inviting the game is for new or returning players. Old hands have their favorites, but even they like a change of pace now and then, sometimes on a whim.

Perhaps what we need are MORE campaigns, but less overlap for the kinds that are very similar in scope, size, and rules/goals. So, if an admin decides they'd like to run a small-map, short-run campaign with specific VCs and a custom shiplist, they won't feel like they have no opportunity while a big-map, long-term campaign with long-running team planning and role-play is rolling along. Do people get my general point here? By overdoing the scheduling, we are effectively killing variety and player choices, which also diminishes creativity in design. Even if Campaign X gets 15 players at prime-time vs. Campaign Y's 30 and Campaign Z's 5, they can all still be fun and offer players a range of options.

So, how about trying to let the communication happen, let the schedule be free-flowing, allowing late entries and overlap when campaigns aren't very similar in design? I think the admin groups and individuals could benefit from being kept up on each other's plans so they don't step on toes. I know the players would benefit if they didn't have to choose between one "serious" campaign and one or more "fun" campaigns (still a poor term, I must say). I'd rather have the tough choice of spending my hours on 2-3 campaigns I like than having no place to play if I don't like the setup of the current offering(s).

Kroma_BaSyl

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2003, 01:00:08 pm »
Damn, where is warlock with those marshmellows?

jdmckinney

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2003, 01:07:02 pm »
Howdy Diz!

It was just too easy spending a couple days trading ideas on how to implement Andros and such. I'm glad we're back to the old flaming and character smears.

Truthfully, I'm sorry I was harsh about my views on delaying a SFCX project while something else ran. That was said in frustration with your flames, not a desire to actively go out and try to squeeze admins out of time slots and deprive them of players. As I posted above, I feel what really would be beneficial would be MORE campaigns, but not having campaigns with a lot of similarities overlapping.

I really don't think the players dwindled because they had too many choices -- many probably wish they had more servers to choose from. Maybe I'm wrong. Either way, a rigid schedule and system that discourages people from running servers at all is not conducive to a better feeling among the community.

If you set aside your personal feelings toward me or anyone else at SFCX (which, by the way, is not just the RT3 team), can you see any merit in what I propose?

Maybe we just have a philosophical difference on what is and isn't good for the community. Either way, the flames don't help anyone.

KOTH-Steel Claw

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2003, 01:11:43 pm »
 
Quote:

 Damn, where is warlock with those marshmellows?




::Tosses a bag of Campfire's best to Kroma::

Personally, I think there needs to be a little consideration for the players. I like both EAW and OP. I feel like I get left out of something cool half the time.

I do realize that the admins pay for this stuff as well.

Some happy medium somewhere?





 

Goose

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2003, 01:19:15 pm »
Persoanlly, it think that formalizing a 'schedule' would be detrimental for several reasons:

Some servers are not campaign servers.
These servers exist as a testing/training grounds for fleets. To tell them when they can or cannot run is unfair as they do not take away from the majors.

Having an admin work hard on their campaign only to be told, "You can't run now." is also unfair. There may not be the time available down the road for said admin to run the campaign at another time.

Updates.
What some Admins learn may be passed to another. But this cannot take place if you are scheduled to go "Now."


What I suggest is this:

No committee.
Takes too long to set up meetings and such, process is drawn out way too long.

No formality.
No rules on when a server can run. This will help promote choice (some people will object to being forced to play on any particular server). And not degrade the "small" servers.

One central point of reference.
A "database" if you will. That people can request info from and maybe pick up tips and advice from other admins.


This "Single Point Of Contact" (SPOC, catchy huh?) would have to adhere to certain qualifications to avoid bias and be mutually acceptable to everyone. Things like (these were mentioned already):
No Admin associations.
No RM duties.
Equal (maybe, say, able to partake in all 3 - EAW, OP and D3) representative.

Would this satisfy our needs?

ZTempest

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2003, 01:24:54 pm »
Tracey, this thread continues to be valuable and is producing some good ideas.

One thing that just occurred to me -- why not just let the Admins sort things out on their own, rather than dictating to them when and how long they need to run their servers?  This way they remain empowered to be flexible and bring their campaigns to the table for the entire community.  If there is a conflict, then they can quietly handle it themselves, between each other.

Just a thought.  I am not so sure that a formal "outside" group of players or admins are needed to make the decisions that the admins might be able to sort out on their own behind the scenes.  

Just throwing it out as an idea.  

 

CaptStumpy

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2003, 01:27:55 pm »
Quote:

Here we see jdmckenneys post on this thread:

Quote:

I know this is probably absurd, but how about someone who doesn't design campaigns or work with a major campaign team? It might be nice if a respected community member (or members) who likes to play all sorts of campaigns on the various versions could mediate any admin scheduling conflicts. The decisions on their schedules would come down to the admins, but an independent voice of reason to try to find the path of least resistance and keep tempers in check would sure be nice. Then again, what sort of nutcase would volunteer to get in the middle...?





Then in a show of solidarity, we see CaptStumpy in the quote below assert  jdmckineys above statement.

Quote:



If I'm off base here, any SFCX member please pipe in but our future campaigns were designed to coordinate with SFC2.net, NOT and I repeat NOT compete with them. Regardless of how many people in the D2 community claim that our intention was to divide the community, I can only assure you this was not the case.

.

To be blunt, this seems to me... an attempt to discredit SFCX on the basis of a stupid personal grudge. SFCX always was, and will remain commited to cooperation with ALL MEMBERS within the D2 Community and looks forward to working with the other admins to provide the best D2 playing experience possible. I think our track record shows it and I think if you put aside some of these concerns for the time being, and allow us to prove it, you will find that this is true.
.

My advise is for everyone to chill out and see how this plays out before jumping to conclusions about what will happen BEFORE it has happened.

Sincerely,

CaptStumpy
SFCX Founding Member





Fortunately I happen to KNOW the SFCX members in a rather personal way. And from personal experience I dont need to 'chill out'. That is why this thread exists. It is to secure a non compete agreement. It is painfully apparent that you guys are FoS and I personally will not take you seriously until ALL SFCX members FULLY support Traceys request. Otherwise, anything you have to say, I take with a grain of salt. My reason for this is jdmckinneys ideology on 'anywhere, anytime, dont care who's feet I step on':

 
Quote:

  So, would I push to roll out a campaign during SG's run (or any other campaign, EAW or OP)? Yes, because we have been waiting for a usable OP D2 for a year, and we've waited long enough.





All this is going to take is a coordinated effort and a bit of solidarity from the divided SFCX members to step up and tell the community in one voice that you support a non compete agreement and will abide by the commitment to insure a maximum playerbase for these planned campaigns. Pretty simple if you ask me. Do the right thing, and support the playerbase, not split it with simultaneous servers.

It is obvious from the post made below by ZTempest that you do not trust us. Well, my friend, the same goes to you and for good reaon.

Quote:

Jinn is a nice guy... But isn't he a member of the inner circle of SFC2.net?  Just like I would not nominate any inner-circle member of SFCX, I do not think that a member of SFC2.net should be running the campaign scheduling either.  Too much possibility for conflict of interest on both sides. If this thing is to take place, we need people who are not associated with either group.    




Continuing to mask your real intentions will fail, I'll make sure to piont out in EVERY post you all make that SFCX's middle name is glass UNTIL ALL of you In UNISON declare your commitment in preventing simultaneous server runs.

There are currently 3 servers ALLREADY planned. 1st is SG3 which has a tentative start date in 3-4weeks, which is right after DOE server concludes, then is followed by Karnaks ISC Invasion server, and finally by RDSL.

I would suggest you cut the crap and simply start negotiating your insertion into this schedule that works for everyone. The last post by jdmkinney pretty much sums up why this post is here:

Quote:

Seriously, I don't read EAW campaign threads, and haven't for some time. I don't play EAW campaigns (not enough time), so I don't read threads about them. I really don't know anything about it, and don't really care. I also have not even glanced at this supposed "schedule" that seems to exist (I didn't know about it until I read this thread).




Not knowing or not caring sinks SFCX's boat and your credibility.


         




Dizzy, why don't you tell everyone here what SFCXs "real" intentions are? Love to hear them myself. This conflict is entirely in your mind and fabricated by you. This is the same stuff that got you in hot water over...and over...and over... until even your supporters end up your detractors. I know you don't believe it, but do you realize when we talk about starting a campaign the word Dizzy isn't mentioned?

That being said no amount of dictating by you, or personal attacks on us is likely to motivate anyone to change their minds. Still, even after you spit your vitriol we will still continue to try to work with you and the rest of the admins to schedule our campaigns. Or if you chose not to work with us, fine, we will still do our best to schedule around you and any other admin.

Of course this might take compromise and mutual cooperation, words not in the Dizzy vocabulary. Unfortunately the usual Dizzy-way or the Highway litany continues to run out of your mouth prohibiting any sort of rational discourse. Even in the face of your abuse, many SFCXers have continued to support, defend and assist you. Still you continue to think some Dizzy hate-club exists. Must gall you to no end to announce your intention to put up the post-patch OP server, a move that was probably intended to hurt someone and be greeted with cheers of "good luck" from Castrin and good natured assistance by other members.

Credibility? You lost yours with me years ago. And your recent behavior is exactly the reason why. Something you continue to fail to understand.

-CaptStumpy

CptCastrin

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2003, 01:35:22 pm »
Quote:

 
Quote:

 Damn, where is warlock with those marshmellows?




::Tosses a bag of Campfire's best to Kroma::

Personally, I think there needs to be a little consideration for the players. I like both EAW and OP. I feel like I get left out of something cool half the time.

I do realize that the admins pay for this stuff as well.

Some happy medium somewhere?  




Hey can I have some too? The marshmellows that is.  

Oh and I agree, all sides need to be considered - SFC2, SFCOP, SFC3, players and admins alike.

Beyond that I have nothing to say so please can I have a few of those ...  

Kroma_BaSyl

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2003, 01:41:17 pm »
Quote:



Oh and I agree, all sides need to be considered - .......SFC3, players......

 




Ok now you are just talking crazy  

CaptStumpy

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2003, 01:43:27 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

 
Quote:

 Damn, where is warlock with those marshmellows?




::Tosses a bag of Campfire's best to Kroma::

Personally, I think there needs to be a little consideration for the players. I like both EAW and OP. I feel like I get left out of something cool half the time.

I do realize that the admins pay for this stuff as well.

Some happy medium somewhere?  




Hey can I have some too? The marshmellows that is.  

Oh and I agree, all sides need to be considered - SFC2, SFCOP, SFC3, players and admins alike.

Beyond that I have nothing to say so please can I have a few of those ...    




I hate marshmallows but I'll take a hit of that whiskey (takes swig) passes it to Tracey...

Gumby

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2003, 01:51:49 pm »
 Maybe instead of all these people fighting in these forums, we should set them all in Tornament Class Cruisers and let them go at it?   After all PvP is the best fighting of all.................

 (Keeping the peace the Romulan way........)  

 

 

FPF_TraceyG

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2003, 01:55:29 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

 
Quote:

 Damn, where is warlock with those marshmellows?




::Tosses a bag of Campfire's best to Kroma::

Personally, I think there needs to be a little consideration for the players. I like both EAW and OP. I feel like I get left out of something cool half the time.

I do realize that the admins pay for this stuff as well.

Some happy medium somewhere?  




Hey can I have some too? The marshmellows that is.  

Oh and I agree, all sides need to be considered - SFC2, SFCOP, SFC3, players and admins alike.

Beyond that I have nothing to say so please can I have a few of those ...    




I hate marshmallows but I'll take a hit of that whiskey (takes swig) passes it to Tracey...  




Why thankyou. Passes the hip flask back to Capt. Stumpy after taking a swig or two. Stumpy looks in the flask.
"Errrr... it's empty..."
"Ummm, sorry, I was thirsty and it was a little flask"...

ZTempest

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2003, 02:01:44 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

 
Quote:

 Damn, where is warlock with those marshmellows?




::Tosses a bag of Campfire's best to Kroma::

Personally, I think there needs to be a little consideration for the players. I like both EAW and OP. I feel like I get left out of something cool half the time.

I do realize that the admins pay for this stuff as well.

Some happy medium somewhere?  




Hey can I have some too? The marshmellows that is.  

Oh and I agree, all sides need to be considered - SFC2, SFCOP, SFC3, players and admins alike.

Beyond that I have nothing to say so please can I have a few of those ...    




I hate marshmallows but I'll take a hit of that whiskey (takes swig) passes it to Tracey...  




Why thankyou. Passes the hip flask back to Capt. Stumpy after taking a swig or two. Stumpy looks in the flask.
"Errrr... it's empty..."
"Ummm, sorry, I was thirsty and it was a little flask"...  





Brings in graham crackers, hershey bars, and an extra bag of marshmellows....

"S'mores anyone?"  

Cracks open a pony keg, dips in a battered tin cup full to the brim with Brandy, and passes it to the left.

Can we sing campfire songs now and get maudlin?  

 

CptCastrin

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2003, 02:02:51 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

 
Quote:

 Damn, where is warlock with those marshmellows?




::Tosses a bag of Campfire's best to Kroma::

Personally, I think there needs to be a little consideration for the players. I like both EAW and OP. I feel like I get left out of something cool half the time.

I do realize that the admins pay for this stuff as well.

Some happy medium somewhere?  




Hey can I have some too? The marshmellows that is.  

Oh and I agree, all sides need to be considered - SFC2, SFCOP, SFC3, players and admins alike.

Beyond that I have nothing to say so please can I have a few of those ...    




I hate marshmallows but I'll take a hit of that whiskey (takes swig) passes it to Tracey...  




Why thankyou. Passes the hip flask back to Capt. Stumpy after taking a swig or two. Stumpy looks in the flask.
"Errrr... it's empty..."
"Ummm, sorry, I was thirsty and it was a little flask"...  




heh heh heheh

Stumpy she said you have a little flask ...

heh heheh heh

   

CaptStumpy

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2003, 02:04:23 pm »
"It's a good thing I come prepared" (walks into darkness loud thumping and rumbling sound then rolls in keg of 12 year old scotch)

"Its going to be a long negotiation"  

ZTempest

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2003, 02:06:30 pm »
Quote:

"It's a good thing I come prepared" (walks into darkness loud thumping and rumbling sound then rolls in keg of 12 year old scotch)

"Its going to be a long negotiation"    




Heh.  I could come to like this negotiation stuff

 

CaptStumpy

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2003, 02:06:51 pm »
Its not size its when and how I use it...

uhh...ok maybe it is about size...  

PS: Oh and before anyone says it, it doesn't have anything to do with my name!  




 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 02:15:45 pm by CaptStumpy »

Karnak

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2003, 02:11:17 pm »
Quote:

Before I go further, I would like to point out the obvious, if unintended, bias toward large campaign design/hosting groups. GFL was barely mentioned above. SFC2.net and SFCX are getting a lot of press, but they aren't, and shouldn't be, the only places to look for campaigns.




This is why I want a strong neutral party publicist to publicize the server schedule that the admins agree on; whenever that happens. .  

SFC2.net already has a smothering presence in D2.  I don't know much about SFCX but I can gather already that it's another SFC2.net-like group that can smother another part of the dyna community.  End result, is an oligrachic structure that un-intentionally drive other servers admin. away.  In the end, we are all equals cuz we all basically do the same job but the PR has to take a multi-lateral approach for the good of the community in order to foster a vigorous and free environment where server admins. from any source can expect to get their proper PR due so their server gets a "fair shake" by the playerbase.  Someone mentioned that the playerbase get a say in the server scheduling. I would think that the admins. are in the best position to estimate when they are ready to go and will endeavour to launch at the best time for the playerbase. I think the playerbase concerns are already factored in by defacto.  In the end, if the playerbase is not happy with the way a server was launched the players will walk so I would not worry about playerbase concerns being ignored.

SPOC is a good idea but it does not have to be that complicated. I think all we really need is for the neutral party Server Scheduling publicist to make a sticky thread at the top of this forum and maintain the thread.  Editing the scheduling as the admins PM in updates.  The Sticky thread approach is an easy and simple way to reference to all D2 players to see what servers are in  "on-tap", "distant thunder" and "might be a good idea, I dunno" status.  We could even just have one of the forum moderators do it.

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Karnak »

CaptStumpy

  • Guest
Re: Attention everyone
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2003, 02:25:22 pm »
Quote:

Quote:



Oh and I agree, all sides need to be considered - .......SFC3, players......

 




Ok now you are just talking crazy    




(takes another swig of scotch takes long look at Kroma...)
(takes another swig...another look...)
(looks curiously at scotch glass...looks at Kroma)

"Is this stuff working for anyone?"