Topic: Give Romulans a quantum singularity

[Robb Stark]

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Er... so what are the romulan advantages? Don't give the romulans the ability to outmaneuver klinks, but a DN with only 3 heavy hardpoints and which hardly can go over .55 in maneuver rating...is a joke.

Warbird has four heavy hardpoints - one faces to the rear.

And I'm not saying the Roms don't merit advantages.  Improve the Romulan cloak so it's better than the Klingon cloak - sure thing.  Improve Plasma accuracy - absolutely.  Tweak the Warbird design a bit more to make her competitive - no problem.  But decreasing warp core mass across the board is not an appealing solution.  Like we need a faster, more maneuverable Raptor?  No thanks.  

[Thanos1]

Actually, Robb Stark (hey nice name btw, another Martin fan:D), the Warbird has THREE heavy hardpoints, all facing forward. The raptor has four, with one facing rear.

The above, combined with the fact that the warbird is slower, heavier, needs more power and has only one more primary hardpoint (360 arc, but doesn't mean much when you are a Rom) than the Raptor, makes me forget about the Warbird altogether and stick with the BCH.

-suleo

[Cmdr. Krotz]

Roms are going to be plenty competitive when the official patch is finally released- probes being fixed makes cloaking much more viable, and plasmas that bat 3 for 3 against tractored targets (or can even do so at ranges up to 20+, sometimes) are plentiful improvements enough, just wait and see...

There isn't really any special ST reason to believe quantum singularity drives are particularly better than standard warp drives, if anything, they are meant to represent romulan ingenuity in overcoming a problem that severely  hindered their ability to become major players in the ST universe. In SFC1&2 manuals, it alludes to the RSE being resource-poor; in old, mostly forgotten, pre-ST:NG lore, dilithium was extremely scarce in the RSE, enough so that while the romulans could certainly design effective warp drives, they were SOL when it came to production, which made getting klingon ships an advantage when the rom/klingon alliance was formed. The QSD (didn't they have SFC1 mssions involving roms experiementing w/ QSDs, I almost think I vaguely remember such a thing, could just be my imagination though), rather than representing an inherently superior system, is instead an alternative technology designed by the romulans to get around dilithium supply problems...it's already assumed in the game that roms have QSDs powering their warp drives, in-lieu of the matter/antimatter power systems of other races (as demonstrated when roms sabotage their QSDs in one of the last missions of the SFC3 fed campaign).

   

[Son of Technobabble]

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Having flown Romulan quite a bit, they do not need more maneuverability.  That's ridiculous.  The Romulans can't have their cake and everyone else's too.  

Romulans, contrary to popular belief, are far from inferior, or devoid of disadvantages.

1.) Cloaking device. Sure, it ain't so hot right now with the bugs and the ease of probes, but if you stay out of the person frontal view, keep distance, move position a lot, and actually decloak when to fire at appropriate times, then romulans are pretty powerful.

I don't think many people will allow you to cloak without at least trying to fire while you do, so you'd better be out of their heavy arcs when you do. Besides, nobody will sit back and wait for you to charge your plasma H, get behind them, and whoop their asses that easily. That's why plasma misses so much. Nobody flies in a straight line with a cloaked romulan around.

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3.) Disruptors recharge rate is not the best, but the damage is pretty decent, especially if you overload.  

To overload disruptors you will have to either have a large warp core OR sacrifice significant power to shields and/or plasma. A larger warp core means less maneuverability. Back to the beginning it seems...

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Warbird has only three heavy hardpoints. Yes, and there's a reason for that. You can load it up with heavy plasma if you wanted. That's incredible crunch power, I hope no one gets hit with that. If they had anymore heavy weapons, we'd all be screaming for our lives.

Three heavy plasma torps require HUGE power, if you want to have decent shields and disruptors.
I didn't say that more heavy hardpoints should be forward firing. But one aiming backwards could be used for say, a tachyon pulse (greatly underrated weapon) or an AMM layer.

I doesn't make much sense to me that a CL has more heavy hardpoints than a DN...but that's another thread.

Oh and plasma is the slowest charging weapon of all the game, which ensures that if you cloak to charge it, when you decloak your opponent's weapons will be ready for a nasty surprise. AND you will not have any shields.

As I stated before, rommies could really use some more maneuverability...  

[Cmdr. Krotz]

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Actually, Robb Stark (hey nice name btw, another Martin fan:D), the Warbird has THREE heavy hardpoints, all facing forward. The raptor has four, with one facing rear.

The above, combined with the fact that the warbird is slower, heavier, needs more power and has only one more primary hardpoint (360 arc, but doesn't mean much when you are a Rom) than the Raptor, makes me forget about the Warbird altogether and stick with the BCH.

-suleo  

Robb Stark is talking about the aft (fourth) hardpoint added to the warbird in the beta patch...the advantage of the warbird over the raptor is primarily the WB's greater heavier armaments and overload capabilities (normal rom disruptor cycling rates are slow enough to make them as much good candidates for overloading as plasmas, it's not like they're going to beat anyone in the damage-over-time department anytime soon); while the uber probes in the current official version of SFC make the slow warbird unable to really utilize its cloak to overcome its weaknesses in manueverability, as it has been alluded to quite often, it should not be assumed that it will remain so    ...that being said, the raptor IS a pretty nifty ship, and works quite well as a platform for overloaded heavy plasmas in its own right.  

[EagleEye]

It is unfortunate that we cannot all come to the conclusion that the Romulan empire is at a disadvantage when compiared to other races.  

I see no way, logicly, that any person looking at the situation from an objective position could come to any other.  I feel that the romulans are not what they should be.  I understand that is is difficult to remove yourself from your current favorate race and be objective, but for the purposes of this discusion it would be greatly appreciated.

As for my take on the situation, I must concur with all who have posted in favor of giving the romulans a better edge in warp core mass-to-power ratio.  

[Thanos1]

Oh, my bad then; I don't have the beta patch. But still, given the current state of affairs, the Raptor is superior. I of course wouldn't mind at all the forthcoming changes :}.
And on the issue of overloading: My raptor config (3HPlas, 4Diz2S, 1AMM, Warp9) can o/l the plasma while keeping everything else at nominal (green) power. And after I unload plasma, I can o/l diz and keep them that way until plasma reloads (or cloak and o/l shields). Works quite effectively, but you have to be fast on those sliders.
Which brings me to a final observation: Why-oh-why could they not have implemented a 'locking' slider or have some slider pre-sets. I mean, a 10 year-old game (xwing) had those...

-suleo  

[Son of Technobabble]

Where do I get that beta patch?

[Cmdr. Krotz]

Those power sliders really do need some work- it's bad enough the way it doesn't always want to give nominal power to all primaries, heavies, and shields, from the get-go (and annoyance common to one playing klingons), instead prefering to overload a couple k-photons and underpower the dizzies...given the way it really seems one needs to continually shift power around to get the most out of rom weapons, I would certainly applaud the addition of some power allocation presets (a definite feature-request for after the bugs are mostly purged from the game).

Sorry SoT, the beta patch was originally released as a public beta, to get some much requested fixes in people's hand right away, but that went against Activision policies (they seem to like to keep the number of total patches low, and as inclusive of fixes as possible, probably to avoid the image of distributing broken games), so it was recalled, so if you didn't get it, you probably won't. As far as future beta patches (there's enough stuff still needing work that I wouldn't be suprised if another beta will be available to test before the official release is ready), Mark Pfeiffer, the Taldren QA guy, posted that Activision gave them permission to take on quite a few testers, if you are interested, you should send an e-mail to Mark@taldren.com, with something about wanting to be a "visioneer" in the subject line (visioneer is a reference to Activision's external beta testing program, from what I recall). Hope that helps.

Cmdr. Krotz the Thoughtful Klingon-in-Exilie
   

[Robb Stark]

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Oh, my bad then; I don't have the beta patch. But still, given the current state of affairs, the Raptor is superior. I of course wouldn't mind at all the forthcoming changes :}.
And on the issue of overloading: My raptor config (3HPlas, 4Diz2S, 1AMM, Warp9) can o/l the plasma while keeping everything else at nominal (green) power. And after I unload plasma, I can o/l diz and keep them that way until plasma reloads (or cloak and o/l shields). Works quite effectively, but you have to be fast on those sliders.
Which brings me to a final observation: Why-oh-why could they not have implemented a 'locking' slider or have some slider pre-sets. I mean, a 10 year-old game (xwing) had those...

-suleo  

No, my bad really... I forgot that the original version of the Warbird only has the three heavies.  When I play Romulan, I tend to stop at the Raptor.  Actually, now that I think about it, I tend to stop at the Battlecruiser level for all the races.  The Dreadnoughts are just too clunky.

Locking sliders would be a very nice addition.  I do hope they have considered implementing them.  

[Tremok]

Wouldn't a Q-WarpCore be infinite power, theorically?

Anyway, I don't know where you people get the nimble Warbird info. Everwhere I look I find that the WB is a bruiser. It doesn't rely on nimbleness but its fly right up to your face and pounds you into quite forcefully into hell with a plasma-laden Thors Hammer.  

[Tulmahk]

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Oh did I mention that only large Romulans ships could even think about using a QSD? And isnt it the large Rommies ships that are horribly slow?  

Wrong.  We saw a Romulan science ship on TNG that used one.  That ship was about the size of a Talon.

The quantum singlularity is extremely tiny, so ship size is irrelevant.  

[ActiveX]

the ship wasnt very small, wasnt it almost the size of Ent-D?

[Tulmahk]

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Wouldn't a Q-WarpCore be infinite power, theorically?

Technically, it does produce 'infinite' power.  But remember, no machine is infinitely efficient.  It always gives back less power than you put into it.

The quantum singlularity cores are grossly inefficient in this way.  However, that doesn't mean their actual power output would be bad at all.  In fact it's very good according to the game stats:

Here's an analysis of Romulan Warp Core IX compared to the same level warp cores of the Klingons and Federation:

(M/O = Mass divided by Output yields number of mass units required to generate 1 point of power)

Rom Warp IX Output:  118
Rom Warp IX Mass:  6000
Rom Warp IX Efficiency (M/O):  50.8

Fed Warp IX Output:  103
Fed Warp IX Mass:  5500
Fed Warp IX Efficiency (M/O):  53.4

Kli Warp IX Output:  90
Kli Warp IX Mass:  4950
Kli Warp IX Efficiency (M/O):  55

Analysis:  The Romulan Quantum Singularity based core IX (which is already in the game, there is no need to add it) is the most efficient warp core of these three empires.  I did't run the numbers on Borg, but I expect thier efficiency to be even worse than the Klingons'.  The Romulan IX core is about 5% more efficient than its Federation equivalent.  It is almost 9% more efficient than the Klingon one.

Conclusion:  With additional analysis, one can easily see this trend continue up to the Warp X cores and down to the Warp I cores, to varying degrees.  It has been maintained here that Romulan cores are in fact inferior.  With this analysis, you can see that they are in fact superior, when it comes to efficiency as well as total power output (again, not comparing to the Borg).

So the Romulan Quantum Singularity Cores dominate the other two empires in total power output in addition to mass / output efficiency.  The only catagory they fail in is total mass (they are the most massive cores outside of the Collective).  Given the 2 for 3 advantages, though, I think the Star Empire has done really well for itself here.  It also helps explain why Romulan ships are so huge.


 

[Tulmahk]

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the ship wasnt very small, wasnt it almost the size of Ent-D?  

No.

The Galaxy class ships are about 641 meters long, 145 meters high.

The science ship was 106 meters long, 15 meters high.

(Source:  ditl.org)  

[Son of Technobabble]

I guess we'll have to wait until the patch is out to see the new engine masses in romulan ships, BUT I don't think that will fix the lack of "racial flavor" anyway...

[Remiak]

Quote:

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Wouldn't a Q-WarpCore be infinite power, theorically?

Technically, it does produce 'infinite' power.  But remember, no machine is infinitely efficient.  It always gives back less power than you put into it.

The quantum singlularity cores are grossly inefficient in this way.  However, that doesn't mean their actual power output would be bad at all.  In fact it's very good according to the game stats:

Here's an analysis of Romulan Warp Core IX compared to the same level warp cores of the Klingons and Federation:

(M/O = Mass divided by Output yields number of mass units required to generate 1 point of power)

Rom Warp IX Output:  118
Rom Warp IX Mass:  6000
Rom Warp IX Efficiency (M/O):  50.8

Fed Warp IX Output:  103
Fed Warp IX Mass:  5500
Fed Warp IX Efficiency (M/O):  53.4

Kli Warp IX Output:  90
Kli Warp IX Mass:  4950
Kli Warp IX Efficiency (M/O):  55

Analysis:  The Romulan Quantum Singularity based core IX (which is already in the game, there is no need to add it) is the most efficient warp core of these three empires.  I did't run the numbers on Borg, but I expect thier efficiency to be even worse than the Klingons'.  The Romulan IX core is about 5% more efficient than its Federation equivalent.  It is almost 9% more efficient than the Klingon one.

Conclusion:  With additional analysis, one can easily see this trend continue up to the Warp X cores and down to the Warp I cores, to varying degrees.  It has been maintained here that Romulan cores are in fact inferior.  With this analysis, you can see that they are in fact superior, when it comes to efficiency as well as total power output (again, not comparing to the Borg).

So the Romulan Quantum Singularity Cores dominate the other two empires in total power output in addition to mass / output efficiency.  The only catagory they fail in is total mass (they are the most massive cores outside of the Collective).  Given the 2 for 3 advantages, though, I think the Star Empire has done really well for itself here.  It also helps explain why Romulan ships are so huge.

   

Hi,
I was a little surprised to see an analysis that concluded:
"Conclusion:  With additional analysis, one can easily see this trend continue up to the Warp X cores and down to the Warp I cores, to varying degrees.  It has been maintained here that Romulan cores are in fact inferior.  With this analysis, you can see that they are in fact superior, when it comes to efficiency as well as total power output"

Was the warp 9 an exemple upon wich a trend could be based or an exception.
I used your same approach (M/O) and then used the difference between the 2 divided by the Fed output to obtain pourcentage of comparative efficiency. I have found the following:

All other 9 warps from 1 to 8 and the 10 have an advantage for the Federation.

The advantage seems to be great:
warp 1: 8% advantage for Fed over Rom
warp 2: 6%
warp 3: 12%
warp 4: 15%
warp 5: 18%
warp 6: 16%
warp 7: 9%
warp 8: 9%
warp 9: -5% (advantage for Rom here as you stated)
warp 10: 10%
 
I would not conclude that the Romulan Empire has developped better warp drives in any trend than the Fedration did. I am sure Romulan players would gain and Federation players would loose if the tables were exchanged...(slower heavier Sov with no additionnal power etc...)
The difference is important in the mid sized warp (3,4,5 and 6).

Furthermore if one compares the Romulan warp core to the Klingon, same approach (here I used difference between the M/O divided by Rom output) one sees:
warp 1: 0.3% advantage Klingon
warp 2: -0.2% advantage for Romulan
warp 3: 0.1%
warp 4: 4%
warp 5: 9%
warp 6: 4%
warp 7: 1%
warp 8: -1% advantage Rom
warp 9: -8% advantage Rom
warp 10: 5%  
 
So the Klingon have 7 times the advantage in M/O and the Rom 3 times.

My conclusion differs from yours, based on your concept of M/O the Rom are not the best but the worst in general. The warp 9 is the notable exception.
The Klingon may be well intended for lighter more nimble ships armed with less power hungry weapons and the tables would confirm that.
The Feds are intended for both lighter and for equivalent power output as the Roms giving a better M/O ratio.
The Roms...well...I do not think their racial flavor comes out in this category (great BCH, worst power/mass ratio in low to mid level and worst at the top level;  DN level...sounds familiar).
   
 

[Tulmahk]

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I used your same approach (M/O) and then used the difference between the 2 divided by the Fed output to obtain pourcentage of comparative efficiency.

Hi Remiak.  I just love peer review.  Let's turn this forum into a scientific journal, shall we?  

I find your methodology flawed, though.

My equation M/O = E produces the result (E) Efficiency.  What the heck are you doing to get your numbers?  Maybe you could post the equation you're using?  From your description, I just don't get it.  Is it:

(FE-RE) / FO = CE

(FE = Fed Efficiency RE = Romulan Efficiency FO = Fed Output CE = Comparative Efficiency)

Is this is the equation you're using?  Efficiency is determined by the mass a warp core needs to produce 1 point of power.  Let's use the Warp X from Rom and Fed to compare true efficiency:

Rom Warp X Output = 145
Rom Warp X Mass = 7900
Rom Warp X Efficiency (M/O)= 54.5

Fed Warp X Ouput = 145
Fed Warp X Mass = 7200
Fed Warp X Efficiency = 49.6

Wow, you're right about the Warp X cores.  The Fed one is 9% more efficient.  Maybe each race has it's own most efficient warp core?

Ok, I need to go do a complete analysis.  My choosing of the IX cores was just arbitrary.  I was under the impression that Romulan cores were the most efficient across the board.  So my conclusion about the Rom Warp X core is that it is complete junk.  Sure, it puts out the same power as the Fed X, but it is substantially bigger, and Rom ships have (I believe) less engineering space than Fed ones.

Roms, stay away from the Warp X core!

 

[Tulmahk]

Remiak,

Going over your numbers agian, I see what you're doing with them now.

And yes, I'm forced to agree with you.  You are absolutely right.  The Feds do have the best Warp cores overall, followed by Klingons (for their smaller ships, anyway) and then last, as usual, the Roms.

Would you agree that Romulan players who use the Warbird should be using a Warp IX core?  That's the conclusion I've come to, and it's the stragegy that I always use, since I'm an unapologetic Warbird flyer.  

[Son of Technobabble]

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The Feds do have the best Warp cores overall, followed by Klingons (for their smaller ships, anyway) and then last, as usual, the Roms.

Why is it that I'm not surprised at all... they wouldn't be Feds if it wasn't that way...