Topic: Spin off thread - NX-01 never existed (Read 8749 times)

StarTrekcaptain · « **on:** March 17, 2003, 12:27:19 pm »

I posted this on another thread that I started, but I don't think lots of people will read it so I'm posting here.

Ok, I thought I was getting abit confused abit this whole six enterprise thing, so I have just watched the episode again and heres how it ran

Bridge Defiant - Viewscreens all fuzzy

Miles "I'm picking up another ship"

Sisko "Can you identify it?"

Dax "No, but its close, VERY close"

Miles "Hang on, I've got it"

The viewscreen begins to clear up and its the Enterpirse inall her CGI glory, its kirks enterprise, the one from TOS

Credits

DS9 Siskos office Sisko is there and two agents from Temproal Investigations Starfleet are there

Agent one "Which Enterprise Captain? Be spiefic there have been 5"

Aganet two "Six!"

Sisko "Oh, this was the first enterprise - Consitution class"

Agent 1 "AHH. THE SHIP"

Agent 2 "Captain James Kirk

Sisko - Smiling Broadly "The one and Only"

Agent 2 "17 seperate temproal vilolations, the biggest file on record"

Angent 1"the man was a menece."

-------------------------------------------------

Anyway, my point is that if they called that ship the FIRST one, then that means there have been 5 other ones after it. Now this was episode 5.3.2 and First contact wasn't released untill episode 5.5.2, this was when they changed the uniforms to coinside with irst Conatct. Now they say in First conatct that they have been out in space a year now (Gerdi does when they have been sent to the neutral zone) So we can count that as one of the five. So we still have the problem of determining the others. BUT, my point is, in that timeline in what we call "Cannon" there was NEVER a NX-01 Enterprise! And this makes me MAD so very MAD. That after 30 years, they just say oh I know, lets ruin everything that startrek is and create ships that never existed. Anyway, I could go on for ever about how much I hate Enterprise, but I will finish by saying, I like to consider myslef an "Expert" in TNG timline, I never saw TOS untill I had watched many episodes of TNG and DS9 so I prefer the TNG universe. And like I said, when people go messing with my expertise, It makes me mad. So from this day forward, as I am using this episode of DS9 as my proof I declare this -

"ALL ENTERPIRSE EPISODES, AND PLOTS, SUB-PLOTS WHAT HAVE YOU, ARE TO BE DECLARED NON-CANNON."

I think that is fair.

Lepton1 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 17, 2003, 12:57:06 pm »

Simply put, who cares? Just enjoy the show or don't. Take Shatner's advice to Trekkies and get a life.

Chris Jones · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2003, 01:09:53 pm »

Well he is obviously passionate about Star Trek and it shows, and does have some valid points. He is not able to enjoy the shows as you do. The Enteprise writers and producers are trying to keep the TNG, DS9, and Voyager fans around by incorporating some TNG elements via time travel, etc.. A good idea on paper, but lots of paradoxes. That DS9 episode,' Trials and Tribble-ations' that StarTrekcaptain refers to is one of the best DS9 shows, IMO, but it was made even before 1st Contact, before 'Enterprise' was even a brain cell.

When i watch Enteprise i get the feeling that it's still TNG somewhow, not pre-TOS. It just doesn't work for me. I do like Scott Bakula, though.

Chris TNG Jones

Monty · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2003, 01:40:35 pm »

The series, as Chris Jones has mentioned, is full of inconsistencies. Its to be expected with a series that is so huge.

Does anyone else remember when Picard gave two different numbers for the number of decks in the First Contact Film for the Enterprise E?

A script error?

Nothing good can become of disecting scripts.

I don't see how this should void ALL of the Enterprise episodes.

I watch and enjoy the Enterprise episodes. As much as this is going to sound hypocritical, I don't take them 'seriously' when it comes to the overall 'trek picture'- they have, for me, more of an entertaining factor rather than a lets rewrite history factor.

MarianoDT · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2003, 02:39:21 pm »

Mmmmm, my Temporal Mechanic course starts next term. So untill that, i can´t help you......

Uss_Defiant · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2003, 03:07:37 pm »

ENT takes place in the Mirror Universe!!
This theory of mine fits in perfectly with the Shatner books, and also supports the mirror unverse's "readyness" of the borg...
If i'm not being clear enough tell me.. i'm in a bit of a rush so i'll elaborate in a few hours..

Scarrita · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2003, 04:23:00 pm »

The best excuse I have heard about the NX-01 not counting in any Enterprise lists is that they are only counting the "Federation Enterprises", seeing how the Federation doesn't exist yet, on the show, it's a "passable" excuse.

Whatever, Berman and Braga are single handedly (or is that dual handedly?) destroying the Star Trek franchise.

Draco · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2003, 06:15:53 pm »

Technically Starfleet itself isn?t meant to exist until after the Federation is formed. The Federation charter, ca. 2161, created Starfleet, so the very existence of it now is a violation. The show does have an almost distinct TNG feel to it, more like Voyager though, but that?s because the majority of their troubles seem to come from unknown and hostile ships, though given their situation this is unavoidable. One of the things I really don?t like is how a lot of their things look like today?s palm pilots. Who exactly is making these things? Motorola? Maybe Nokia?

If you want to talk about real discontinuity, the ?phase pistols? are the subject of choice, I think. In ?A Matter of Time? (TNG) Worf specifically stated that phasers were not invented until the 22nd century, and if you look at ?The Cage? (TOS) the enterprise crew had nothing more than lasers, and only 3 settings on them, and they had to be twisted like a sticky flashlight (torch for the British) to get them to change. So you can?t say that it works because the two aren?t spelled the same. This is quite likely just a bad attempt at giving the crew a non-lethal weapon.

Granted it is a rather enjoyable show on its own, but it isn?t on its own. It?s like trying to preserve history, when all you have to go on is a math book. It just doesn?t work.

Arcilte · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2003, 08:59:24 pm »

Quote:

The best excuse I have heard about the NX-01 not counting in any Enterprise lists is that they are only counting the "Federation Enterprises", seeing how the Federation doesn't exist yet, on the show, it's a "passable" excuse.

Whatever, Berman and Braga are single handedly (or is that dual handedly?) destroying the Star Trek franchise.

I agree with Scarrita. This seems like a good excuse.

Kyoshi · « **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2003, 09:38:12 am »

Dont forget the weird effects of the Temporal Cold War (TCW) the ST:ENT-Serie is based on.

IIRC, the NX-01 was rescued in Episode 11 by the Suliban Silik. Ordered to stop a "Energy-Cascade" in the Warp-Engines, which would else have lead to the complete destruction of "the first warp 5 ship". Wasn´t Daniels himself very surprised, that NX-Enterprise still existed? I dont think, Starfleet would mention a experimental Ship in their historybooks, that failed to survive the first test-flight (even or specially, if it carried this name).

But IMO we are already in a different time-line since the first episode: Genetic modifed Suliban hunting a Klingon, who has informations about the klingon empire situation, which is affected from unknown external events based on the TCW. Only as a result of these actions, Archer is able to launch the Enterprise. Something, the Vulcans would else have prevented maybe for many more years - when not at all (as it seems to be a fact in the timeline of DS9?).

Let me also spekulate: Even the Prototyp-Phasepistols would not have been seen in Action for a long time, if not invented by Malcom for the Suliban-Helix-Mission. Maybe this is explaining, why years later, in "the cage", outdated Lasercannons are still used instead.

So ST:ENT shows us a complete alternate view, about exploring, expanding and development of the Starfleet, as it could have been happend, if the vulcans wouldn´t have been such a...

...well, just my point of view.

StarTrekcaptain · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2003, 11:14:48 am »

Thats a sound explanation bgut it has one very large hole. The seires isn't in a different timeline. All the adverts, posters and interviews that I have seen indicate that the show is "100 years befor kirk" "the first starfleet ship to venture into the galaxy" etc. Rick Bremer has made a series which talks about Starfleets first steps into deep space. NOT an alternate timeline. The Explantaion is that hes FU$KED around with the existing universe and completly destoryed everything that star trek stands for and what it has grown into over 30 years.

Pestalence · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2003, 05:49:12 pm »

StartrekCaptain,

I agree that the show Enterprise is inconsistant to known Trek Facts... but TNG is as well and is several of the TOS episodes.... however, you stated a quote from DS 9 in your first posting where they called the NCC-1701 the original enterprise, however, if you look closely at the case in Captain Piccard's ready room in the movie "Generations" the first Enterprise was indeed the NX-01 Enterprise, however it is not the one we see in the show.. it is a Deadelus Class Spaceship.. the flying sphere with a handle and warp nacells added.... that was Film Canon for the "First" Enterprise...

Second inconsistancy with the episode you quoted is that the First Captain of the NCC-1701 is unknown(Name not given in any TOS episode, however Captain Pike in the episode "The Cage" made it clear that he took the ship over from a previous captain).. Non-Canon sources call Robert April the first captain of the NCC-1701 (though still unconfirmed according to film), followed by Captain Christopher Pike (The Cage, The Menagerie), then Captain James T. Kirk... Kirk was the Third Captain, then Captain Spock (Star Trek II : TWOK), but the most notable of all her (NCC-1701) captains was James Kirk...

Third inconsistancy is calling the NCC-1701 a "Constitution Class" Starship, when in fact in any TOS episode, the dedication plaque next to the turbo-lift clearly states that the NCC-1701 Enterprise was a "Starship Class" Spaceship and is stated as such in "The Cage".. and was further made proof when Gene Roddenberry stated that Franz's (who called it Constitution Class) book on Trek ships were not Canon, and only what is seen on screen is Canon, and if any inconsistancies exist in furture episodes, the first showing of Said Canon is the one that is True Canon... the rest are just from writers who can't research.

However, you are correct, the show Enterprise is not Canon by Roddenberry's definition as the NX-01 was already seen on screen as a model in a historical case on the NCC-1701-D... as well as technonogy, equipment, weapons, ETC...

The way to determine Canon in Trek is to watch Trek episode by Episode according to production date... Starting from "The Cage" TOS first piolot episode all the way through until present day... Everything seen as a First that doesn't contradict a previous episode is "Canon" as per Roddenberry.

In response to another poster... Lasers were the top of the line hand held weapons in "The Cage" as Phasers were ship mounted weapons, or a huge cannon that could be transported to the surface of a planet... Hand held Phasers only became available between the time after "The Cage" and when Kirk took over the Enterprise... Phase Pistols leads to incline viewers of "Phasers". A shortened name of Phase Pistols would be Phasers.. thus, looking at this point of view, makes Phase Pistols an item out of it's created timeline according to TOS episodes... the Lasers in TOS were also called Laser Pistols.... Lasers for short, just like Phasers are short for Phaser Pistols...

Like I said above, if you want to follow Canon, watch each episode according to production date (not release date) and follow Roddenberry's rule I stated above.. this will give you True Canon of Trek.... instead of speculation...

Whiplash · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2003, 06:54:02 pm »

Well.....

There are a couple of simple ways to streeeetch continuity into shape again.

First, you could say that Enterprise is NX-01 rather than NCC-01. Therefore, like the original excelsior, not a ship that ever entered full service.

Second, and somewhat related, Archer's Enterprise predated the Federation. They could have been counting only Federation vessels, and not Earth vessels.

Both arguments can be combined. That doesn't make them any less weak, but its not TOO difficult to believe it.

W.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2003, 09:48:42 pm »

Phaser stands for "Phased Energy Rectification" Not Phase Pistol

My opinion about "canon" is what we collectively agree on.
All else is speculation.

If everyone agrees deck (what was it, 60 something?) of Enterprise A is non-canon, then it is non-canon.

If everyone (even the most stubborn have to) agrees that the Enterprise is a Constitution class, then it becomes cannon.

Klingons ships were called D-7's in non-canon material only (they were called Battlecruisers "on air"). But they were popularly called this, so in (I think it was "Trials and Tribbulations") they called a D-7.

Here is my opinion:

Enterprise is cannon

The Ferengi never tried to board Enterprise (it was just the Visual effects department doing a poor job of re-using old props).

I will ignore the Borg if they can't at least do what they did with the Ferengi. If they do, the Borg could explain this statement by 7of9 about first contact between Humans and Vulcans. She said, "I know, we were there." The Borg were unable to send a message before they were stopped. But I'd prefer to consider it non-canon.

The GIANT Bird of Preys in "The Defector" were really 3 Vor'Chas.

If every single Star Trek fan in the entire world will agree to this, then it becomes cannon.

Just IMHO.

Blitzkrieg · « **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2003, 05:19:15 am »

Ill agree just because I cant be bothered to argue, futhermore I think I actualy do agree lol (god I need to retake up smoking)

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Topic: Spin off thread - NX-01 never existed (Read 8749 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

StarTrekcaptain

Lepton1

Chris Jones

Monty

MarianoDT

Uss_Defiant

Scarrita

Draco

Arcilte

Kyoshi

StarTrekcaptain

Alidar Jarok

Pestalence

Whiplash

ChamadaIV

Pestalence

ChamadaIV

Alidar Jarok

Blitzkrieg

ChamadaIV

Topic: Spin off thread - NX-01 never existed (Read 8749 times)