Topic: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)  (Read 13129 times)

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ChamadaIV

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #60 on: March 14, 2003, 07:56:00 pm »
Quote:

Well, I just hope something really bad happens at the end of the series that nullifies the entire timeline that Enterprise is set in, thus invalidating all the erroneous script writing in the pursuit for bailing out their ailing ratings.  




They did such a good job with the latter half of DS9 too. How can they SNAFU everything like this? I still say we give Berman & Bragga a chance and wait for the outcome of this episode. Heh, at least on the bright side, its not another "the Captain and Trip get captured" story.  

"For they know not what they do...." - unknown  

StarTrekcaptain

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2003, 08:25:02 pm »
 
Quote:

 I still say we give Berman & Bragga a chance and wait for the outcome of this episode.




Ok lets give them ONE MORE CHANCE.  They did bring us DS9 and Voyager.  Though its intresting to note that when the blessed Gene Roddenberry was alive (sorry if I got his name wrong) he threw out the idea of DS9, but I still love DS9.  So Berman And Bragga with Ira Stevenson (Who is a FANTATIC writer) did bring us 14 seasons of bliss (voyager and DS9, so I'm willing to give them ONE more chance.  I will of course have to wait till the episode is aired in the UK, if at all, but If it doesn't work or they crap around with the timeline again, then I'm shooting stright over the the "save star trek" webpage and signing my name on the petition to get Bremer thrown of!

SghnDubh

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2003, 08:47:17 pm »
Quote:

Well, I just hope something really bad happens at the end of the series that nullifies the entire timeline that Enterprise is set in, thus invalidating all the erroneous script writing in the pursuit for bailing out their ailing ratings.  





Problem is, as lousy as the ratings are, Enterprise is still the highest rated show on UPN.

But I agree with your point. Better writing would solve a lot of things. Problem is, hasn't it (mostly) all been told by now? How many encounters can a ship traveling through space have? Just a question...  

Lepton1

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2003, 09:17:08 pm »
Quote:

This is why I HATE ENTERPRISE.  Don't get me wrong, I think its a cool idea, going back to the beginning of the Federation and what have you, but the writers are taking no respect AT ALL of the existing trek timeline.  

1: In TNG episode "First Contact" the Enterprise performs first contact with a new race.  In this episode Picard state and I quote "we perform First COntact this way, because 100 years ago a disatrous first contact with the Klingons led to almost a century of war".  SO WHAT THE HELL ARE THE KLINGONS DOING ON ENTERPRISE NOT SHOOTING AT EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2: Also in TNG I can't remeber the episode but its when Q sends them to the delta quadrant to face the borg for the first time.  Now Starfleet has NO record of the borg before this episode, so how can the borg appear on earth and then two hundred years later Starfleet has no idea of their existence.  

I could go on, but really I can't be arsed.  Enterprise is a HUGE dissappointment and should be axed and Mr Bremer so called "exective producer" sacked and someone who actully cares about Star Trek and its continuing sucess put in his place.  




To address the first point, we have no idea to which "first contact"  Picard may be talking about.  Perhaps the "Broken Bow" incident was supressed in some way in the historical record.  Second, well I dont think the Kiinks have been particularly friendly so far on Enterprise.

As to point 2, two explanations.  First, temporal paradox.  The events in First Contact the Movie took place after the encounter with the borg, yet they go back in time in the movie, so in the time of  the Q episode, the borg had not yet been to Earth.  Only after the events in First Contact would it be possible for the events in the Enterprise episode to take place.  Think of time as non-linear and more like a string that can be bent back on itself and you will get it.  

Second, suppresion of the events in the historical record.  The temporal cold war may have been the impetus that created an early Temporal Prime Directive, thus if knowledge of the temp cold war were suppressed, then knowledege of borg might have been suppressed as well if it was seen as a violation of the timeline.

While Enterprise does not exactly tickle me pink either, your timeline objections are easily explained.  While there may be other objections to timeline stuff, these aren't great examples.

Nagoth

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2003, 09:56:40 pm »
IDEA!

Lets have them change the time line and start TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voy all over again!

then we can enjoy all new shows and keep the last 25 years as a differant time line that only us older people remember as how it coulda been.


Hay did you know your grand paw   remembers an Enterpraise with a guy called KIRK as captain?

AWE come on Grand dad - I wasn't born yesterday.  

Darktide

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2003, 02:43:26 am »
Without trying to sound like i know what im talking about, doesnt there have to be a timeline when the borg dont exist in earths history around the 'first contact' era. The first warp trial goes successfully and first contact is made, then sometime in the future the borg invade and travel back through time. to the 'first contact' era, followed by the enterprise who try to preserve the existing timeline as best as possible? So, as far as i see it, in this timeline the Federation of TNG arent going to know anything of the borg because the whole events portayed in the 'first contact' film hadnt happened yet. Make sense?
 

StarTrekcaptain

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2003, 04:16:46 am »
 
Quote:

 To address the first point, we have no idea to which "first contact" Picard may be talking about. Perhaps the "Broken Bow" incident was supressed in some way in the historical record. Second, well I dont think the Kiinks have been particularly friendly so far on Enterprise.  




How many first contacts can you have with one race?????????

 
Quote:

As to point 2, two explanations. First, temporal paradox. The events in First Contact the Movie took place after the encounter with the borg, yet they go back in time in the movie, so in the time of the Q episode, the borg had not yet been to Earth. Only after the events in First Contact would it be possible for the events in the Enterprise episode to take place. Think of time as non-linear and more like a string that can be bent back on itself and you will get it.
 




Theres one problem with your explanation.  You controdict your self.  First you talk about temporal paradox, which is fine, in the TNG timeline the borg havn't been to earth yet, fine, BUT BECAUSE of temporal paradox, when the TNG timeline comes around if the borg have already been seen by starfleet and have already been found on earth then Picard and Co WOULD know about it, AND Q are entities that live outside of time, much like the "Wormhole Aliens" in DS9, so they would know if Starfleet has already had an encounter with the borg!

 
Quote:

 Second, suppresion of the events in the historical record. The temporal cold war may have been the impetus that created an early Temporal Prime Directive, thus if knowledge of the temp cold war were suppressed, then knowledege of borg might have been suppressed as well if it was seen as a violation of the timeline.
 




And lastley, to hide the mistakes of REALLY bad writing in Enterprise by explaning them in "Suprssing of events" is a load of Crap.  I know its fessable, but really?  The first ship from Starfleet having its most important logs, IE First Contact with Klingons (Broken Bow) and with the Borg surpressed, so 200 years later All is forgotten, please, what do you take the trek community for??

We like our Star Trek and we don't like people taking the piss out of us for liking it.  And Bremer is taking us all for a big long ride for this one.  He has no regard for the existing Trek timeline and has lost the ideals that Star Trek once had.  Gone are the times of Exploration and addressing issues such as racism and predudice (rember Star Trek TOS was the place of the FIRST EVER TV kiss between white and black)  and star trek has now been turned into anyother Sci-Fi series which is all about one Race agasint Humans.  It started with the last few seasons of Voyager and its continuing at an alarming rate with Enterprise, viewing figures alone are barley 4 million on the second season on Enterprise.  Mr Bremer needs to pull his head out of his arse and beg all star trek fans to forgive him.

Oh yeah and don't get me started on Nemisis!

The_Pelican

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2003, 05:02:03 am »
A quick point from an early post about Enterprise being the highest rated show on UPN. It's incorrect, the highest rated show on UPN is WWE Smackdown.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2003, 05:03:52 am by The_Pelican »

Qob'nuH

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2003, 06:24:34 am »
The first Romulan-Earth War was fought in crude nuclear-powered vessels with no viewscreens so "no human,Romulan or ally knows what the other looks like." --TOS Balance of Terror.  The whole Enterprise concept is crap. I actually like the show and do watch when I get a chance, good space show just sh*tty Trek. I would have been happier if they did a little homework first and hired someone who knew about Trek.  

FPF_TraceyG

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2003, 07:03:53 am »
Ratings mean advertising money... and we all know the corporate paradigm.

Sadly, consistency and backwards compatability come a distant last.

Christoff

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2003, 09:59:44 am »
Quote:

The first Romulan-Earth War was fought in crude nuclear-powered vessels with no viewscreens so "no human,Romulan or ally knows what the other looks like." --TOS Balance of Terror.  The whole Enterprise concept is crap. I actually like the show and do watch when I get a chance, good space show just sh*tty Trek. I would have been happier if they did a little homework first and hired someone who knew about Trek.  




yeah, but you see, the TOS timeline has already been smashed to pieces by TNG and all the other series...if you follow the TOS timeline WW3 happened in ... 1993 (?) and not in the mid 21st century.

Uss_Defiant

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2003, 10:17:21 am »
Actually, BB are surprisingly keeping trek cannon prity much intact...
This series, is infact, taking place in the mirror universe.
I say this because in the Shater books when the Borg came and attacked the Emprie they were somehow "ready and waiting for them"  The book doesnt actually identify why the Emprie was prepared for the Borg.

I"m thinking that this may be the event that explains this.  

Speaker to Animals

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2003, 11:05:38 am »
It is unfortunate that they will resort to rehashing old enemies to get ratings.  I noticed that DS9 started doing that in the first season, but by the end of the 2nd, and beyond, they had the Dominion and expanded on the Cardassians, which made for good television.  
As to this Borg Enterprise episode, well, they've thrown out all hopes of a unified timeline.   From what I read of the synopsis of this episode, the Borg drones found start assimilating people.  Now, if that is true, how will Enterprise's technology, which is 200 years behind what the Borg can defend against, hope to even scratch them?  
Maybe the future guys will help?   In any case it is a house of glass, just waiting for the rock of continuity to smash it..

Too bad, that Tholian episode gave me such hope..

Speaker to Animals  

Lepton1

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2003, 01:35:26 pm »
Quote:

As to point 2, two explanations. First, temporal paradox. The events in First Contact the Movie took place after the encounter with the borg, yet they go back in time in the movie, so in the time of the Q episode, the borg had not yet been to Earth. Only after the events in First Contact would it be possible for the events in the Enterprise episode to take place. Think of time as non-linear and more like a string that can be bent back on itself and you will get it.
 




Theres one problem with your explanation.  You controdict your self.  First you talk about temporal paradox, which is fine, in the TNG timeline the borg havn't been to earth yet, fine, BUT BECAUSE of temporal paradox, when the TNG timeline comes around if the borg have already been seen by starfleet and have already been found on earth then Picard and Co WOULD know about it, AND Q are entities that live outside of time, much like the "Wormhole Aliens" in DS9, so they would know if Starfleet has already had an encounter with the borg!





I think you fail to understand what a temporal paradox is.  When Picard says they have no knowledge of the borg, the events in the Enterprise episode have not occurred yet, in a sense.  Thay can only occur after the events of the "First Contact" movie which happens in the future in the TNG show.  That's why I said you have to bend time back on itself to get what I mean.  That's why it is a paradox; future events have effects in the past that do not manifest themselves in the present.  It's paradoxical.  Also, clearly the Q might know that indeed Starfleet had no knowledge of the borg as I have described as they would be knowldegeable to the sequence of events and of the temporal paradox.

One additional comment. I don't need social commentary from my sci-fi shows.  I am a well enlightened individual in my own regard. What I like from sci-fi is sci-fi.  Strange races, temporal nuttiness, alternate realities, etc.  Witness the rather pathetic AIDS episode on Enterprise some time ago.  Please, let the writers keep their pseudo-liberal Hollywood sexual preference/orientation politics to themselves.  AIDS is certainly a more serious issue than the sexual appetites of priveledged first-world people.  Hello! AIDS and Africa.  The nexus of the epidemic is poverty, morons. So please keep let them keep their naive uninformed politics to themselves.  I prefer serious commentary in  a serious format on a serious issue.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Green

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2003, 02:12:54 pm »
I read an article saying Star Trek was fiction ... turns out it was a TV series that was turned into a few movies.  They even have comic books, a bunch of fiction novels, some board games, and even a few computer games.





I enjoy watching each and every episode of the ST series and the movies.  But I also understand it is all make-believe.  If there are "plot" disconnects between one set of shows/movies and another set of shows/movies ... it doesn't matter to me.  As long as I am entertained.  I like Enterprise.  The show is doing well.  I am entertained.

StarTrekcaptain

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2003, 02:45:42 pm »
 
Quote:

 I read an article saying Star Trek was fiction ... turns out it was a TV series that was turned into a few movies. They even have comic books, a bunch of fiction novels, some board games, and even a few computer games.





I enjoy watching each and every episode of the ST series and the movies. But I also understand it is all make-believe. If there are "plot" disconnects between one set of shows/movies and another set of shows/movies ... it doesn't matter to me. As long as I am entertained. I like Enterprise. The show is doing well. I am entertained.

 




Yes but what you have to understand is, for some people widely regarded as "Trekkiies" or "Trekers" not sure bout the difference!  We people think it DOES matter.  And when someone comes in and mucks up 30 years of superb writing and universe creating we get mad, so very mad!

KD4

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2003, 03:03:47 pm »
the borg in frist contact were easly killed with gas prepeled projetiles.  

Rogue NineCH

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2003, 03:10:39 pm »
I soured on the show even before it began, as soon as I heard the name of the newest Star Trek series "Enterprise", it would have been much more interesting if they had called the ship a different name.  Like "Explorer", or "Endeavor" something different than "Enterprise", would have at least got my interest in the show at the beginning.  Then the show started and I saw how bad the writing was, that did it for me.  I haven't watched it in a long time and I consider it a joke.

Blitzkrieg

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2003, 06:23:33 pm »
Enterprise isnt as good as Voyager, Voyager isnt as good as DS9. DS9 was my favourit sci fi show ever, by far. The problem with Trek is, they set the bar so high, its hard for new shows to compare. Enterprise may be the runt of the litter but they have had some very good episodes, but when they mess with the Trek time line I understand where people are comming from.

You can only give out so many loose explenations before the reality of the show is lost. Real fans when they watch the show get really involved in it, I know I do. When somthing really dosnt add up, you know it, then you drift out of reality as you analys whats so wrong. At this point, you dont enjoy the show, in fact the show hurts you, so people have turned off, ratings correspend to my theory  

Personaly I would have liked to have seen a pre TOS, very romating flying around with no shields so to speak, basic weaponry, flying by the pants of your seat. All those races to redisover, marvelous, but what happens when you dont follow the history laid down by previous shows, is that the dream is lost, Enterprise often dosnt feel like I wanted it to.

Idealy, a show based in the SFC3 universe so to speak, after Voyager got home, that would have been far better. No timeline to speak of to ruin, they could have gone to hell with it all and back again. Could even turn the Borg into a flower growing, puppy loving, bunch of romatincs. It wouldnt hurt so much then, eh, hope the writers listen one day.

Peace all

theRomulan

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Re: Martok and Borg on Enterprise!? WTF!!!!! (Very mild spoilers)
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2003, 09:48:33 pm »
Some people will say that a tv show is a tv show; so long as it entertains, anything proceeding it is irrelevant.  Sometimes I wish I was able to think that way too, but I too can't stand it when the 'history' of the show, or at least the history as I perceived it from watching Star Trek episodes, becomes distorted.  

I have never watched a full episode of Enterprise.  Some will probably say, "you're loss".  Well, not really, I just can't find any joy in watching it.  Maybe the stories are interesting.  Unfortunately, I'm the kind of guy who likes continuity.  I know that all television show continuities are broken, or some how flawed. The movie Terminator makes no sense if you think about it: John Connor sends a friend back in time to protect his mother from assassination before his born, but now his friend is his father........ and then you've got Terminator 2 where John Connor is being protected again, so the future still exists.... what the hell!?!?!  However, since it's just two movies, with about 4 hours of footage, I'm not too concerned about that.  I can endure the temporal loop holes thing and enjoy it.  But Star Trek is a series that has far more than 4 hours of footage to it.  It has far more than one kind of story going behind it.  It's not simply a war against the machines and the constant battle to eliminate John Connor before the war starts.  Instead, it's a series that has been on for several years, and spans across generations (pun not intended) of time.  There are a few loopholes between TOS and TNG, that always happens when you stop writing tv episodes of that format for over a decade.  Despite small lapses, I feel that TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY have all maintained a least some connection to each other. But Enterprise, after breaking even more 'continuity' things, is just unbearable to me.  Almost any plot hole or continuity change can be explained away, as evidenced by some of the replies to this post; but I can only take so many explainations before I just become uncomfortable with it and kind of disregard it.  It's like the anime series of Dragonball.  You've got Dragonball, then Dragonball Z, which sort of breaks away from the original, but goes on for a really long time, then you've got Dragonball GT.  By this point, the story has just become so overdone and convoluted, you just can't watch it.  Enterprise has kind of become that for me.  I just don't like how it looks.  "We're before TOS, we're not nearly as advanced, and yet... it almost seems as if we are...."  Just small things like the control panels... I know it's trivial, but I just don't like it.  It just looks too modern... TOS is buttons and whirly screws... Enterprise looks like it's ready to take on the Defiant.  I know TOS done in the 60's, and that it woudln't make sense for us to have computers in the future that look less advanced than my desktop, but Enterprise just doesn't pull it off that well for me.  I just... don't like it. Too bad.  

The second half of DS9 was great, but it kind of dropped off in the end.  the Dominion War was cool, but I felt it went a little TOO long.  It was interesting when the Klingons attacted DS9, but I felt they milked the conflict with the Cardassians and Dominion for just a little longer than they should have.  I mean, if the person who played Dax ended up leaving before the show concluded.  Not that she's a barometer for a shows quality.  I guess one benefit of DS9 being on so long was Captain Sisko.  He rocks man!  Add him and Worf together, and you have two of the baddest muthas in space.  

Voyager had so much potential in my opinion, but it just didnt' go in the direction I wanted.  It's not my show though.  I felt the enviroment of the crew was just too peaceful.  I expected the series to give us a crew that starts as the typical, sterile star fleet crew with high minded ideals and a desire for exploration, but after years of constant hostiliy and conflict with the surrounding galaxy, they become cold, battle hardened, maybe even more ruthless and singleminded in their thinking, the ship never really fully repaired, falling apart in some episodes, the hull becoming less of a standardized star fleet vessel, and more of an orion pirate ship almost....   They did this to a degree with the Borg and a few episodes, but except for that outrageous series finale stuff, not much changed.  They didn't seem like a rag tag, on spare parts and glue starship.  Everytime foreign parts were added, they just became more powerful, more confident, not more and more uncertain, which I think would have made a more interesting show.  I say, stop giving us Star Trek the Next Generation format.  Give us Starfleet, but give us a crew that's treading more on the thready side of things, a crew that goes on missions that don't always begin with First Contact and end with happiness.  Something where the ending of the series doesn't look peachy keen.  But that won't happen.  Boo hoo.