Topic: SFC Launcher (a dynaverse and gamespy's online services replacement)

[GodlyDevil]

Hello.
My first post in these forums.. Please forgive me if I'm overstepping it something.

I've tried the link at the top of this topic and all links in between, but i can't download the server prog.. Where do I get or where can I download it?

thanks in advance
GD

[matchbox2022]

Same....
Hope its not a "demand to donate thing" which is illegal for mods based on another license.
I'd love to donate but forcing isn't cool (I design my own sounds and scripts for mods for other games and never do that).
That'd defn alienate any players.
Organizing with buying the game itself from dynaverse as part of "upkeep costs" is an entirely different story.

[d4v1ks]

Previous versions of the SFCLauncher, like all the tools related to these games, were made available for free in the last 2 years.
The work on the games, like the SFC3 , SFC2CE, SFC2EAW or the SFC2OP patches, that we can call a MOD, were also distributed for free.

The SFCLauncher software is not a mod. It is a personal project developed by me, updated, and maintained for private use.
The program is not required to use any of the mods above.

Which you call a "demand to donate" has nothing to do with the program.
It is a way for people to show appreciation for the time I invested in these projects.
You can't buy the SFCLauncher, nor i will give to you based in any kind of donation.
It is something that i decided to do, an improvement. It is up to people to choose how they will interact.

[vonfrank]

Wait a minute...

Is this no longer available unless a patreon donation is made? 

[matchbox2022]

Yeah...I've made exes specifically linking to another exe for a mod as well....to the point where it solves individual errors in the original program and hex edits on the fly......
that's still called A MOD, and because it's based on another guys work, I can not charge for it.
Providing a doorway to use the original game in a new way still uses the original game so....can easily see a legal issue here with demand to donate, which is exactly what you've done.

It's no different than other programs people "coded" to work with assets in the game. (Shipedit.exe Q3Editor.exe FMSE.exe, even hexeditors and various shareware/freeware).

Is it a standalone game, use your own assets or allow for a license to create additional IP? No? Then what you've done is began to alienate player bases, potentially illegally. Like I said before, donate to download is a fancy way of saying I need compensation, which is fine to ASK for, not demand for personal projects based on OTHER IP.

If people aren't donating the solution is pretty simple....make your own content based on your own IP completely where you CAN charge.....or stop providing your experience in volunteering and make it known as to the time limitations and some need to keep afloat.
Making people "donate to show appreciation" in order to use something which links to a license for software they "already bought" is a slippery ####ing slope.

[vonfrank]

Yeah...I've made exes specifically linking to another exe for a mod as well....to the point where it solves individual errors in the original program and hex edits on the fly......
that's still called A MOD, and because it's based on another guys work, I can not charge for it.
Providing a doorway to use the original game in a new way still uses the original game so....can easily see a legal issue here with demand to donate, which is exactly what you've done.

It's no different than other programs people "coded" to work with assets in the game. (Shipedit.exe Q3Editor.exe FMSE.exe, even hexeditors and various shareware/freeware).

Is it a standalone game, use your own assets or allow for a license to create additional IP? No? Then what you've done is began to alienate player bases, potentially illegally. Like I said before, donate to download is a fancy way of saying I need compensation, which is fine to ASK for, not demand for personal projects based on OTHER IP.

If people aren't donating the solution is pretty simple....make your own content based on your own IP completely where you CAN charge.....or stop providing your experience in volunteering and make it known as to the time limitations and some need to keep afloat.
Making people "donate to show appreciation" in order to use something which links to a license for software they "already bought" is a slippery ####ing slope.

Completely agree.

IF this is whats happening (and d4v1ks, correct me if I'm wrong) this is not good at all. And with all of the controversy about EA going on right now, this is really poor timing to try and charge people for access to things that should not be paid for. Regardless of the fact that this is an external program for the SFC games, it is still FOR the SFC games, and as a result, there can be no pay-wall for it.

I appreciate that modding is something that takes a lot of time, and we, as adults, quite often have little time to spare, but that doesn't excuse this. If you don't want to make the mod, then you don't have to. We may all appreciate the release of the mod, but no one is forcing you to devote your time to it. Conversely, you shouldn't force us to pay you if you decide to create it anyway.

If you want, put an optional donation up on the download page. This will enable people to download, test, and enjoy the mod with the availability to donate to you for your service to the community AFTER they have given it a try. This is the proper (and only legal) way to go about it.

[d4v1ks]

...stop providing your experience in volunteering and make it known

you shouldn't force us to pay you if you decide to create it anyway.

The patreon page was created for people with a different mindset.
There is a lot of people that think my time and efforts are meaningless and so on, at least when compared to theirs.
And then there is a hand of people that contacts me and write: 'I like what you are doing and I want to support you!'
This version is being updated for those.

Like I said, the program is not for sale. Nor available based in any kind of donation.
The patreon is just a way of setting goals for me and let you be part of it.

Because lets be realistic.
You can see the pictures and videos. I've got a working version for more than an year by now. Even if it was not 'perfect' i know how it works, and i know how to operate it well.
The new version is not being made for me. It is for you. Those that have problems setting a working version or wish something more.

I've raised the goal there to 1 billion dollars.
That should put things in the right perspective.

[vonfrank]

There is a lot of people that think my time and efforts are meaningless and so on, at least when compared to theirs.
And then there is a hand of people that contacts me and write: 'I like what you are doing and I want to support you!'
This version is being updated for those.

No one said we thought your time and effort was meaningless. In fact, most of us were praising your efforts.... up until now.

And as far as donations for support are concerned, there's nothing wrong with accepting them, but requiring them for the 'updated version' is completely different. Essentially what you're saying is; "Here's the free version of my modding program! It's great inst it? A few bugs and its incomplete.... BUT WAIT! You can get the 'New and improved' version for a mere $5 donation! And I'm not just trying to make money because I'm not SELLING it to you, I'm letting you be a part of the creation process! Don't you feel a sense of accomplishment?"

Do you see how messed up that is? I'm sorry man, because I really love the work you've done and I probably would have even supported you with a gratuity donation once the completed version was made available and I had given it a try.  But now? Now you're just trying to make a buck.... And that's sad, especially since you cant even admit it to yourself.

So as far as I'm concerned, this mod is dead. My friends and I who were all looking forward to this will be quite disappointed. If you decide to change your mind down the road, then I'll be back. Until then, good luck...

[d4v1ks]

Lets assume you are right, when you say that i'm just trying to win a buck and sell the software for a minimum of $5.
Imagine that you and your friends pay that amount between yourselfs, 50 cents each, in a 10 people sample.
I dunno who you are or were you live, but lets assume you work in USA in a laundry and win an average of $10 per hour (hypothetical example):

$10 = 3600 seconds
50 cent = 180 seconds

From this point of view you and your 9 friends would have access to the new version in exchange of 3 minuts of your time, right?

But lets continue with this assumption...
When you write things like "I appreciate that modding is something that takes a lot of time", "no one said we thought your time and effort was meaningless", "I probably would have even supported you", what you mean by that?
When you write "we may all appreciate the release of the mod" and "now (...) as far as I'm concerned, this mod is dead", what message are you trying to send?

Looking at the example above i could argue that this project, for you and your friends, is not worth 3 minuts of your time.
Even worse, i could assume that this project don't even deserve the time you spent reading and replying to these posts, right?

But lets keep this assumption...
Put yourself in my place.
What you would reply to a person that writes that several days of your time is not worth 3 minuts of theirs?
If that person said that he appreciates your time would you really believe in him?
And then your wife takes just takes a look in your monitor, reads the replies, and yawns: "I'm tired of seeing you wasting time with people that clearly doesn't care about you. Why don't you just stop it?"
"Don't you feel a sense of accomplishment?"

Even if i was trying to sell the software "do you see how messed up" this assumption is?
It just gets worse and worse...

good luck...

Thanks man

[d4v1ks]

The progress of the project can be tracked here.

[TarMinyatur]

Curious that some humans will pay $6 for a game that doesn't work for multiplayer dynaverse mode. Curious that they will pay $6 for an archived game with no active support. But if an unpaid & unassisted programmer devotes hundreds of hours of labor to fix this situation, he is criticized for being greedy or antisocial for valuing his work. Curious that some people believe that any software that is SFC-related actually belongs to the public (as soon as proof-of-concept is established), must be given freely forever, or never made available. I'm not talking about lawyers (who will sue over hot coffee or shut down Star Trek fan-made material), I'm talking about players.

If dynaverse.net were selling 2.564 with enhanced multiplayer services for $6, would anyone complain? I doubt it.

I'm glad I'm a Gorn and not a human. We are an appreciative speciesss with good mannersss. You humansss are ssstrange.

[Captain Adam]

 

[AlDaja]

Curious that some humans will pay $6 for a game that doesn't work for multiplayer dynaverse mode. Curious that they will pay $6 for an archived game with no active support. But if an unpaid & unassisted programmer devotes hundreds of hours of labor to fix this situation, he is criticized for being greedy or antisocial for valuing his work. Curious that some people believe that any software that is SFC-related actually belongs to the public (as soon as proof-of-concept is established), must be given freely forever, or never made available. I'm not talking about lawyers (who will sue over hot coffee or shut down Star Trek fan-made material), I'm talking about players.

If dynaverse.net were selling 2.564 with enhanced multiplayer services for $6, would anyone complain? I doubt it.

Well said.

[Tus-XC]

to many fools out there.   keep it up D4, I've bought you a beer for your time and effort - it was the least i could do.

[matchbox2022]

Curious that some humans will pay $6 for a game that doesn't work for multiplayer dynaverse mode. Curious that they will pay $6 for an archived game with no active support. But if an unpaid & unassisted programmer devotes hundreds of hours of labor to fix this situation, he is criticized for being greedy or antisocial for valuing his work. Curious that some people believe that any software that is SFC-related actually belongs to the public (as soon as proof-of-concept is established), must be given freely forever, or never made available. I'm not talking about lawyers (who will sue over hot coffee or shut down Star Trek fan-made material), I'm talking about players.

If dynaverse.net were selling 2.564 with enhanced multiplayer services for $6, would anyone complain? I doubt it.

I'm glad I'm a Gorn and not a human. We are an appreciative speciesss with good mannersss. You humansss are ssstrange.

Then that's what needs to happen, to allow for financial contribution without relying on a donation.
FYI, we don't mind donating as a lot of us still play and think it's worthwhile. Me paying to get things running on a new machine slickly for the price of a coffee? like an expansion idea? Yeah I would. But it needs to be done the right way.
It is just as much about the lawyers as it is the players. That's the real world guys, licensing and intellectual property / what you can do with it MATTERS.

There's a few artists that go about this in a more creative way (although its entirely their own intellectual property) too, asking for donations for their music as a "pay what you think its worth" scheme. I think Ben Prunty was one of them as I bought a few albums off of him. And I did not select 0$.
I justified what made sense based on my income and the value of the entertainment I was getting and paid based on that. Fact is, they made money off me by not subjecting me to a way of thinking that required me to justify myself why "NOT" to get it, the pricetag.


...
Just a thought as to having a donation button versus a paytag....it's partly lack of advertising / popularity and partly the limited playerbase at fault for why the donation method may not have been providing "ANY" compensation (especially when all your players donate "once" and then that's that without any new players coming in from either buying from GOG or here), which when you are providing something to the public in order to continue "ENJOYING it", far past its lifespan, yeah I agree you could use some.
The way you ask for something has a much larger impact than you think as well as the passage of time.
So maybe what I wrote above is a potential solution? Certainly getting people who buy the game now in the "know" about how to truly "get the game working the way it should" through these mods...that or updates simply rolled into the stock game and collecting revenue as a contributor to the update.
But tying the hands of the limited playerbase is NOT the way to do it.

Look at Black Mesa Source. Hell they didn't charge for YEARS of work as a MOD based on Half-Life (Valve/Steam), and BAM its being sold on Steam like bikinis sell cars...where the creators are getting compensation legally.

[TarMinyatur]

How are anyone's hands "being tied" by the SFC Launcher? There have been free versions of everything that Carlos, Adam, TAnimal, and I have worked on for years as hobbyists.

Taldren, Interplay, Paramount, Activision, ADB, Quicksilver, and Gamespy have been the corporations that have tied the hands of the players of SFC. Facing these challenges, Dynaverse.net has been unable or unwilling to fix Orion Pirates (no source code is clearly a hurdle) and the results of a discordant volunteer effort gave us SFC: Community Edition in 2012, which is essentially obsolete and historical software. But we ought to honor these defunct and uncooperative corporations? Because that's how the real world works?

The SFC community is an insignificant blip to commercial Star Trek interests. Steve Cole wants $50,000 minimum to consider any idea related to Star Fleet Battles. He'd take the money and then could reject the idea. His stubborness is ridiculous.

No, we will almost certainly get no help from the IP holders (aside from this forum). It is up to those who love the game to work on it. And those of us who appreciate that investment of intellect, can show our appreciation through their own hex-editing, artistic content creation, or by giving money to those who have the time and talent for SFC. If we expect something for nothing, we've done pretty well thus far! The modding utilities, texture upgrades, and 2.037, 2.563, 2.679 are all improvements on the official versions. They cost exactly $0.

[Lieutenant_Q]

The size of the playerbase is the biggest issue, even back in its prime, SFC was really a niche market.  It hurt that networking infrastructure and technology limited it to what it was.  Could you imagine what the game would be like if SFC1 was released just 4 years later?

Today's players don't really want what SFC was, it is a blessing and curse.  A DD is a DD is a DD, no matter how many times you see it and fly it.  That's not what the players want anymore.  They want the customization, they want the ability to grow their ship as they keep playing.  But most of all, they want all their work to be recognized.  If someone's put 300 hours into the game, they want something for it.  Not what happened at the end of every SFC game, Side A wins, Side B loses, reset the game and start again.  I love that aspect of the game, as do most of the people here, but unfortunately we are a part of shrinking minority.  I don't want to speak for everyone, but I'm sure that most of the people here would have jumped at the opportunity to play in a 10v10, or a 15v15 match.  But instead the best we could hope for was an experimental (and very unstable) 4v4.  Even the 3v3s didn't work very well if even one person wasn't on DSL or better.  And in 2000-2003 most people were still on dial-up.  And the problem is that that can't change without a major re-writing of the code, the network code was a product of its time, and hardcoded into it.

Its just unfortuante that we are where we are with SFC.  Because I would put the depth and the immersion of SFC up against even the most popular MMOs.  But the complexity of the game scares away casual gamers, and the inability to "Level" pushes away the hardcore gamers.  To be frank, I don't want to simplify the game, and I don't want leveling, and that makes me a minority in the gaming community at large.

[d4v1ks]

Thanks for your opinion Q.

[Nemesis]

They want the customization, they want the ability to grow their ship as they keep playing. 

If that is what was wanted we would all have moved to SFC 3 - but we didn't.

Sure it would be nice to be able to just upgrade the existing D7 to D7B when the newer model came out without having to trade in the existing ship but it works well enough as is.

[Tumulorum Fossor]

I know it's getting CLOSE, Carlos!
Let me know how I can contribute when the time comes!!!