Topic: ST3 drives itself backwards.

[knightstorm]

there is a ton of books out there, that I would love to see on the big screen also. Many of them tell better stories than even some of the older movies.

Stephen

Why in the crap have the screenwriters never used this source of plot material?  None of the ST movies were very good.  Worse, they indroduced broken ideas into the ST universe.  Books are usually well thought out, and stay within the limits of the story setting.

The problem is that movies are not created to please the fan base.  Like just about everything else in the world, movie-making is a game for very rich men.  Half the time, a movie is just an excuse to try a new lighting arrangement.  Bond movies were not about adapting the old novels to modern times as much as the producers filming stunt men who had come up with a good act.  Scripts are usually written just to set up a shot.

What most of us want is somebody to use film to tell a story.  The people who can get ahold of the capital to make movies are interested in something else.

Orci did take some source material from the books.  That's why it sucks.

[Tulwar]

Who wrote a book where Vulcan was destroyed?  No, novelist simply do not screw with a setting that isn't their property.

[knightstorm]

The concept of Kirk's father having been in starfleet, and Kirk being a juvenile delinquent were from the books.

[Sirgod]

That was about it though. Those two books , involved Kirk as a Teenager, going with his dad, and April, on a test cruise.  Where as his dad was dead the moment Kirk sprang to life.

Stephen

[Tulwar]

The concept of Kirk's father having been in starfleet, and Kirk being a juvenile delinquent were from the books.

These are perfectly cool concepts.  A man following in the footsteps of his father tracks in any fictional setting.  A kid who causes trouble, because he is too aggressive and too intelligent for his highschool just might be the type of person that could become the youngest starship commander in the fleet.  I have no problem with this.

What I have a problem with is Kirk continuing to be a juvenile delinquent even as he stands on the bridge of the Enterprise.  An instructor had to challenge him to cheat his way out of the Kobiashi Maru, because the way he cheated in JJ Trek was unforgivable.  In military academies, cadets are forbidden to use sarcasm, yet suddenly, he becomes the skipper of the Big E!  Bull manure!  The script wasn't simply bad, but insulting!

[knightstorm]

The concept of Kirk's father having been in starfleet, and Kirk being a juvenile delinquent were from the books.

 A kid who causes trouble, because he is too aggressive and too intelligent for his highschool just might be the type of person that could become the youngest starship commander in the fleet.  I have no problem with this.

Not even.  Most of the cast just sucked.  Scotty was an abomination, Zachary Quinto might have looked the part physically but he was really poor in the role, and Anton Yelchin just sucked.

An actor has to have something to work with!  The part written for Uhura seemed to be a slap at Bill Shatner, and while he might deserve it, that distracted from the story. The film turned Kirk into a low-life punk.  They made out the Vulcans to be the epitome of racists.  We can go on with lousy story-line and bad parts, but where I have to give kudoes is the only thing the film got right:  McCoy.  The actor and the lines he read were absolutely perfect.  If you were to isolate his performance from the crumby sets and the rest of that sorry film, you'd have something to work with.

[Tulwar]

Knightstorm, I assume you're trying to point out an inconsistency in my opinion?  Kirk was not depicted as being anything but an adult, so his "juvenile deliquency" was not germaine to the discussion of the film.  When Kirk's back story is taken back to his teenage years, one must allow for other aspects of his character.

[knightstorm]

There was the scene where he stole his stepfather's car, got into a chase with the cops, and drove it off a cliff.

[Tulwar]

There was the scene where he stole his stepfather's car, got into a chase with the cops, and drove it off a cliff.

The Mustang scene only irritated me, because TOS Kirk couldn't drive.  When he pulls out an apple during the Kobiashi Maru simulation, it was too much for me.  Sure it was supposed to be funny, but the insults were already piling up.  By then Kirk, was way too wild and over-the-top to take seriously.

What is it with just about the whole command crew of the Enterprise going through the academy academy at the same time, anyway?

[knightstorm]

There was the scene where he stole his stepfather's car, got into a chase with the cops, and drove it off a cliff.

The Mustang scene only irritated me, because TOS Kirk couldn't drive.  When he pulls out an apple during the Kobiashi Maru simulation, it was too much for me.  Sure it was supposed to be funny, but the insults were already piling up.  By then Kirk, was way too wild and over-the-top to take seriously.

What is it with just about the whole command crew of the Enterprise going through the academy academy at the same time, anyway?

You don't need to tell me everything about the film that you hate.  Chances are I've probably already posted all the reasons a couple of hundred times already.

I'll even add another reason that you might not have thought of.  Eric Bana.  Seriously, every film I've ever seen him in sucks.  If he's a part of the cast, its a good bet that the film is going to be awful.

[Tulwar]

You don't need to tell me everything about the film that you hate.  Chances are I've probably already posted all the reasons a couple of hundred times already.

I'll even add another reason that you might not have thought of.  Eric Bana.  Seriously, every film I've ever seen him in sucks.  If he's a part of the cast, its a good bet that the film is going to be awful.

Why do you continue to discuss it, then?

[knightstorm]

To counter all of the fawning praise there is with people commenting on how "brilliant" Abrams is.

[Tulwar]

The fawning praise comes from the pulicists he and the studios pay to make him out as the greatest thing since sliced bread.  He's giving up on directing the next one, which means that he's out of the ST buisness, perminately.  I wouldn't say this means anything good for the next film.  After all, it's being done by the same writers and production companies.  You really can't expect them to write differently, or create whole new models and sets.

[Sirgod]

Here ya go men, how many lens flares did JJ use.

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/How-Many-Lens-Flares-J-J-Abrams-Star-Trek-Movies-69062.html

tl;dr 721 first movie , 826 second movie

[Tulwar]

This thread has made me think deeply about these films, and I've come to realize that everything I find distasteful about the plot was done very deliberately.

Early in the film, we see the sun filter through a tender young Spocks ears.  There were no special effects, just beautiful photography and prosthetics, so Spock's ears were the color you'd expect of a boy.  Of course, those of us who grew up with ST knew that Spock was only half human and favored his Vulcan side, down to the color of his blood being green instead of red.  If you didn't follow ST, this wouldn't bother you at all.  At first blush, this would appear to be an innocent mistake, overlooked because it was such a beautiful shot, but as you watch more Abrams' ST, you see more wierd discontinuitous teasers.

In "A piece of the Action," the silly original series gangster episode, you could not have missed in almost 50 years of re-runs, we learned that Kirk couldn't drive a stick.  In Abrams' film, he seemed to handle the gears of a museum piece like he was born to it.

In the last film, were are teased with the mother of Kirk's son stripping in front of him for no reason at all, except to produce a publicity shot.  When you think deeper, you have to wonder how that even got into the script, except as an inside joke.  If I enjoyed watching these films, or were deeper into the ST story arc, I'm sure I could find a lot more of things that look like inside jokes.

Now, think of all the people that go to ST conventions and holloween parties as ST Vulcans.  These folks make up characters for themselves and live the fantasy beyond the show.  Could you think of a better way to tell these people that they are a bunch of losers than blowing up their fantasy world?

Abrams' ST is a mean spiritted joke.  This isn't somebody making a bad film, because they, "don't get 'Trek,'" or they are merely incompetent.  This is like some 13 year old menace walking up to a five year old and breaking his toy in front of him.  Abrams is laughing at all the trekkies.

I waited 2 years to see Star Trek Into Darkness.  I'll try to put off Star Wars VII for 7.  I didn't like Lost, or any other Abrams' production, so it has to suck.  Then again, has anybody seen Mel Brook's The Producers?

[knightstorm]

This thread has made me think deeply about these films, and I've come to realize that everything I find distasteful about the plot was done very deliberately.

Early in the film, we see the sun filter through a tender young Spocks ears.  There were no special effects, just beautiful photography and prosthetics, so Spock's ears were the color you'd expect of a boy.  Of course, those of us who grew up with ST knew that Spock was only half human and favored his Vulcan side, down to the color of his blood being green instead of red.  If you didn't follow ST, this wouldn't bother you at all.  At first blush, this would appear to be an innocent mistake, overlooked because it was such a beautiful shot, but as you watch more Abrams' ST, you see more wierd discontinuitous teasers.

Truthfully, I wouldn't fault him for that.  If you want to get technical, TOS got it wrong because if Spock's blood was green, his lips should have also been green.

[Tulwar]

Truthfully, I wouldn't fault him for that.  If you want to get technical, TOS got it wrong because if Spock's blood was green, his lips should have also been green.

While the character may have green blood, the actor's blood is quite red.  If there is no asthetically pleasing and practical method of making this work for the production, the audience can be asked to overlook the difference.  In theater, this is called a convention.  Drawing the audience's attention to a convention is considdered a mistake, unless it's a joke.  If I remember anything of this movie, then it has to be painfully obvious, so I doubt it could have been the former.

[Sirgod]

Honestly, the whole green blood thing was a matter of suspension of belief for me. What was the episode name, where they got an air force pilot beamed on board, and he mumbled something out of passing about green skinned martians, right before seeing Spock for the first time?

To me, that was just a good joke, but it wouldn't work in todays trek, what with the tech we have for movies. not that I want my Vulcans green mind you. I have came to used to them looking the way they are, and would dread them getting the Orion treatment this late in the game.

Stephen

[Tulwar]

The episode you mention had a good effect with a 20th Century human reacting to seeing an alien for the first time.  This isn't a matter of how Spock should be made up.  This is a matter of a director showing you that the character isn't and never has been depicted realisticly.  When you think of the JJ Abrams films as a parody, the stylistic choices suddenly make perfect sense.

[Sirgod]

The episode you mention had a good effect with a 20th Century human reacting to seeing an alien for the first time.  This isn't a matter of how Spock should be made up.  This is a matter of a director showing you that the character isn't and never has been depicted realisticly.  When you think of the JJ Abrams films as a parody, the stylistic choices suddenly make perfect sense.

I am forced (Happily even) to agree with that POV. I may have to do that the next time I watch the JJ Trek, think of them as a parody , like Star Wrek: The pinkering.

Heh, if it is one thing I have learned, through this thread, it is that we are all serious about Our Trek. even if we quibble over the minutiae , just the passion we have , shows me that even without film, Trek will live forever in our hearts and minds.

Stephen