Topic: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies  (Read 17999 times)

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Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2014, 04:46:02 pm »
TOS Klingons were more sophisticated than the big budget Klingons.  Could you really imagine the movie or TNG Klingons really spying on their superior officers?  TNG goes very deep in showing a feudal system where the Empire is run by great houses.  A Governor like Kor would be an aristocrat.  Yes, the Klinks as brutal savages, but so were the counts and dukes of Medieval Europe.  The Klingons from the 1960's wasn't so much of a feudal system as a system of complete repression, where everybody spied on everybody else.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2014, 03:10:50 pm »
I see a penis because it looks like a penis.  It has two outward protrusions (balls) at the base, a long neck, and bulbus tip, and a hole in the front of the bulb that stuff shoots out of.  Deep Space Nine even has a scene where a bird of prey docks by having the tip mate against a recessed area in the station's docking ring.

Sorry Knightstorm but if your penis is shaped like that you are deformed.  If you asked your girlfriend/wife to use a D7 or Bird of Prey model as a dildo I doubt you would be able to get her to try it due to the shape being wrong.


Kor did not outthink Kirk and Spock, he outnumbered and outgunned them.  As for being "cultured" he was nothing more than an animal dressed like a man.

Kor bugged the council room.  Kirk spoke there of his plans.  Kor understood Kirks limitations and used those against him.  Kirk did not anticipate Kors counter strikes.  Kor did the out thinking.

Worf does express his dislike of Q vocally, but I don't think I ever remember him trying to physically attack him.  As for Worf not taking responsibility for Alexander, part of the problem was that Kaylar spent his early childhood teaching him that Worf's values and traditions were garbage, but I really can't defend him.  And even Martok seemed shocked at how bad their relationship was.

Worf growls at Q. 

Of course  K'Ehleyr taught Alexander truth not Worfs fantasies.  Kaylar was the only TNG Klingon worthy of the name Klingon. 

As I once said:
Quote
To me only one Klingon in TNG was cut from the same mold as Kor, Kang and Koloth.

K'Ehleyr and she is half human.  Only she fulfilled her duty with no regard for consequences to herself.   Worf constantly tried to beg off duties.  She travelled in a PROBE because that is what her duty required, Worf complained about 0 g even though he was going to fight the Borg.  She turned down a ship and a council seat that were offered to her as bribes.  True Klingon not a TNG Klingon.  Like a true TOS Klingon she did not respect the Klingons of the TNG era or their traditions.

Can you imagine how Kor or Kang would have handled Q?  With Worf's brute force and growling?  I think not.  Q would not have called one of them "micro brain".

TOS presented the Klingons from the point of view of a people on the verge of all out a partial picture of the animals which made them look more duplicitous and dangerous than they actually were.

Kor was calm cool and collected not on the verge.

Another quote from the past:
Quote
TOS Klingons:
Created our own technologies.
Kor defeated Kirk.
Kang took Kirk's ship.
The Romulans were our client state and bought our ships.
To fight us the Federation needed a Kirk
Squashed tribbles as the vermin they are.  One does not war on vermin one stamps them out.  There is no glory in killing tribbles.

The TNG so called Klingons:
Use Romulan technologies.   (cloaks and Birds of Prey)
Use Federation technologies (photon torpedoes)
Have no culture and must steal one from the Earthers (Hamlet)
They hide their so called war ships with cloaks unless they can attack en masse.
They are a client state to the Federation.
They had to have a human choose their chancellor.
Rather than condemn a powerful traitor and face the consequences they chose instead to condemn a weak but innocent warrior.
When two WOMEN rebelled they needed the Federation again to save them from the Rebels and their Romulan weaponeers.
Use the phrase "if you were any other man I'd..."  Do it or don't - bluster is not the warrior way.
To control them the Federation only needs a Picard.
Celebrate the Great tribble hunt as a glorious victory.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2014, 03:34:45 pm »
In Hide and Q Picard had to stop Worf from physically attacking Q. 
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2014, 03:20:34 pm »
A lot of the perceived differences between TOS Klingons and TNG Klingons is the fact that we are comparing Kor, Kang and Koloth to Worf and Krudge.

1. Worf was raised by humans and their perception of Klingon culture.  Even after he was re-introduced to Klingon Culture he still was colored by Human perceptions.

2. Krudge was simply insane, driven mad by his pursuit of the Genesis Device.

Klingons held a technological edge over the Federation and the Pre-Federation races until the 23rd Century.  The rapid technological advancement of the Federation forced the Klingons to adapt, they acquired the Cloaking Device from the Romulans in exchange for advanced Warp Drive Technology.  This also forced them to change their tactics, as their principle enemy, the Federation had not only reached the Klingon Tech Level, but surpassed it.  Gone were the days of using superior ships and tactics to outmaneuver and pummel their enemies into submission. Adapt or Die.

Shakespeare... yeah... I'm not going to touch that one... that was just stupid... I'd really like to know what they were thinking with that one... "You have not read Shakespeare until you've read it in the original Klingon."??!  WTF?!

Honestly, the whole Duras incident is more akin to Kor.  Duras had the political clout to label Mogh as the traitor, and the Duras sisters used that clout to start the civil war.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2014, 04:23:47 pm »
TOS Klingons are an organized Empire with a strong central authority. 

TNG Klingons are "tribal" organized (to the extent they are) into Houses that spend more time backstabbing each other than building the Empire.  They use outsiders to choose their chancellors and fund/equip/fight their civil wars.  Could you imagine Kor bringing in Kirk to stop their civil war or choose a new ruler for them? 

If the TNG Klingons seen on screen are "typical" of the bred then non of them would do research or design and build ships as it would be "beneath them" to do such non violent things.  No wonder they use Romulan designed vessels and cloaks.

Kangs wife was his science officer. 
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2014, 05:02:41 pm »
There is no such ship as a Romulan Bird of Prey.

Offline Nemesis

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Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2014, 05:40:26 pm »
I don't give a damn what they say. That's a warbird.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2014, 07:56:18 pm »
The "Klingon" Bird of Prey first appeared in ST III.  I think that I read it in this forum that the original script had the ship being a stolen Romulan vessel.  As this didn't carry the plot forward, the concept was eliminated, but the model was built with a very different look from the T'Kinga.  My impression of the model was a number of spherical sections arranged almost haphazzardly, with a pair of unispired slab wings, and a couple of 37mm gun pods borrowed from a model of a Ju-87.  The green paint really drove the last impression home.

After better than 2 decades, I remember having conversations where everybody found that calling a Klingon ship a "Bird of Prey" was inconsistant, because the Romulans were identified with the bird motif.   I wasn't the only one who thought it looked cheesy.  I used to really hate that model, but now, it merely annoys me.

Hopefully, when CBS renews the series, they'll go ahead with some consistant ship evolution and more subtle special effects.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2014, 04:11:42 pm »

Sorry Knightstorm but if your penis is shaped like that you are deformed.  If you asked your girlfriend/wife to use a D7 or Bird of Prey model as a dildo I doubt you would be able to get her to try it due to the shape being wrong.


Looks more like a penis than it does like a shark



Kor bugged the council room.  Kirk spoke there of his plans.  Kor understood Kirks limitations and used those against him.  Kirk did not anticipate Kors counter strikes.  Kor did the out thinking.



Which he was able to do because he outgunned and outnumbered Kirk.  Like the rest of those dirty beasts, Kor was well equipped to brutalize people who were unable to fight back on an equal footing.





As I once said:
Quote
To me only one Klingon in TNG was cut from the same mold as Kor, Kang and Koloth.

K'Ehleyr and she is half human.  Only she fulfilled her duty with no regard for consequences to herself.   Worf constantly tried to beg off duties.  She travelled in a PROBE because that is what her duty required, Worf complained about 0 g even though he was going to fight the Borg.  She turned down a ship and a council seat that were offered to her as bribes.  True Klingon not a TNG Klingon.  Like a true TOS Klingon she did not respect the Klingons of the TNG era or their traditions.

Can you imagine how Kor or Kang would have handled Q?  With Worf's brute force and growling?  I think not.  Q would not have called one of them "micro brain".



Worf didn't refuse his duty in first contact.  Picard asked him what he remembered of his zero-G combat training from the academy, and Worf mentioned that he remembered it making him sick to his stomach.  Kor, Kang, and Kolath would have behaved the same way because they would have been just as frustrated at being in that sort of helpless situation as Worf was.

Kor was calm cool and collected not on the verge.


Kor ordered mass murder


Another quote from the past:
Quote
TOS Klingons:
Created our own technologies.
Kor defeated Kirk.
Kang took Kirk's ship.
The Romulans were our client state and bought our ships.
To fight us the Federation needed a Kirk
Squashed tribbles as the vermin they are.  One does not war on vermin one stamps them out.  There is no glory in killing tribbles.

The TNG so called Klingons:
Use Romulan technologies.   (cloaks and Birds of Prey)
Use Federation technologies (photon torpedoes)
Have no culture and must steal one from the Earthers (Hamlet)
They hide their so called war ships with cloaks unless they can attack en masse.
They are a client state to the Federation.
They had to have a human choose their chancellor.
Rather than condemn a powerful traitor and face the consequences they chose instead to condemn a weak but innocent warrior.
When two WOMEN rebelled they needed the Federation again to save them from the Rebels and their Romulan weaponeers.
Use the phrase "if you were any other man I'd..."  Do it or don't - bluster is not the warrior way.
To control them the Federation only needs a Picard.
Celebrate the Great tribble hunt as a glorious victory

And as I've said before and I'll say again, Klingon space travel is proof that if you put enough chimps in a room with typewriters with enough time you'll eventually have the complete works of Shakespeare.  Kang was able to take the Enterprise because the flashing thing trapped most of the crew below decks, and turned all of the phasers into swords.  The Klingons exchanged technology with the Romulans.  The Romulans got more advanced weapons, the Klingons got cloaks.  Also, its been fairly well established that Klingon honor only applies to dealings with other Klingons, and while those animals will whine like b*tches about how dishonorable other races are, they're more than willing to use underhanded methods themselves.  Picard choosing the chancellor was a political decision of the dying chancellor who did not know who had poisoned him, and needed to make sure that a party not beholden to his murderer would choose his successor.

TOS Klingons are an organized Empire with a strong central authority. 

TNG Klingons are "tribal" organized (to the extent they are) into Houses that spend more time backstabbing each other than building the Empire.  They use outsiders to choose their chancellors and fund/equip/fight their civil wars.  Could you imagine Kor bringing in Kirk to stop their civil war or choose a new ruler for them? 
 

TOS doesn't give any indication how Klingons rule themselves, only how they oppress their subjects.  The few episodes which show it indicate that that aspect of the Klingons remained unchanged in the succeeding century.


Kangs wife was his science officer. 

They would still need a science officer even if it is viewed as an undesirable position.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 05:11:38 pm by knightstorm »

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2014, 04:44:11 pm »
Wow knightstorm, all this vitriol for a made up race on a sci-fi show. Is being a vehement anti-klingite considered hate speech?  :soap:

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2014, 05:17:23 pm »
Wow knightstorm, all this vitriol for a made up race on a sci-fi show. Is being a vehement anti-klingite considered hate speech?  :soap:

Its not hate speech if they really are a dirty gutter race.