Topic: Ruleset and other game play Specifics  (Read 79425 times)

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Offline Javora

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #160 on: July 07, 2014, 12:14:42 pm »
If we do use this system, is it possible to have power allocation perfected, do you remember KA. I think it would be neat if all the system had the ability to go at least 5-10% or somewhat above the 100% threshold to allow players who choose to utilize their power allocation wisely the ability to add let's say a bonus to their systems.

Like battery power in SFC?

That is what I was thinking anyway...

Offline Javora

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #161 on: July 07, 2014, 12:40:45 pm »
My thoughts and please corect

W have a starbase, let say a shield is at 100% and is value is 200

A battleship would have 80% of that, maybe 160 at full strength

Through power management and shield reinforcement maybe at 105% or 168.

The limit, undecided, maybe 150%

My intent is to use a starbase as the starting point.  Anyone, have the details for a starbase?

That is not what I suggest.  When I mean 100%, I mean 100%, not 100% of another value.  Shield strength would not be able to go beyond 100%.  Shields would only be able to be reinforced once the shields sustained enough damage to drop below 100%.  Using a star base as a starting point was my intent as well which is why I wrote the above post the way I did.  We can explain that by saying that overloading shields can cause shield failure.  In the same vain, Phaser I damage can never cause 100% damage, plus shields does not have a capacitor.  IMHO the most damaging weapon in the game (Plasma R for instance) wouldn't do more than 15%~20% damage.  A smaller ship like an F-FL or even a BB would be able to increase shield strength since their starting max isn't at 100% in the first place.  I guess the limiting factor might be power, a shield generator would never receive enough power for a F-FL to reach 100%, now a BB on the other hand might depending on power management and balancing issues.

Umm, after rereading this post it came out a little harsher than I intended, not what I wanted, just trying to get the information out there.

Offline Captain Adam

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #162 on: July 07, 2014, 02:01:56 pm »
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:57:02 pm by Captain Adam »

Offline Captain Adam

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #163 on: July 07, 2014, 02:04:17 pm »
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:56:56 pm by Captain Adam »

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #164 on: July 07, 2014, 02:05:03 pm »
Really? You want six or more percentage numbers floating around your ship instead of shields?

Offline Captain Adam

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #165 on: July 07, 2014, 02:07:51 pm »
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:56:50 pm by Captain Adam »

Offline Captain Adam

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #166 on: July 07, 2014, 02:09:41 pm »
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:56:44 pm by Captain Adam »

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #167 on: July 07, 2014, 02:15:44 pm »
I just want OP that works . . .
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #168 on: July 07, 2014, 02:27:36 pm »
There is really nothing wrong with the shield color system in SFC, except that they never told us what the different colors mean besides Super Strong (White), Strong (Green), Medium (Yellow) and Weak (Red) all with faded lower halves to denote when you are closer to the next lower or higher color. You can figure it out by testing, but since each ship has different shield strengths at the start, there is no real way of knowing what is what at any given moment, only the range of strengths. Simply creating a display that shows the color code and relative strength of each shield and what that color means relative to each ship would solve the problem. Think of a thermometer type display filled with colors and numbers along the edges to tick off strength values. Simply read the color for a quick look at what is weak or strong and read the numbers for precise shield power at the moment. You would need one for each shield, but they would be thin and compact and easy to see if bunched properly. That way we could keep the on ship shield display for quick reference and have better info on hand.

I think that it is highly recommended that the basic six shield system be retained as many other combat functions are tied to it in SFC, which for the moment is our primary guide. Adding in shield facings top and bottom may be something that needs to be done if 3D combat is realized. Any other configuration besides the one bubble shield type of thing can't really work well in that environment. A one bubble shield may work, but it will take some effort to figure out how to distribute damage that way.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #169 on: July 07, 2014, 03:06:59 pm »
With ship movement I'm going to flip the script a little bit.  Ships with less mass will be able to get to 100% movement faster than a larger ship.  All ships should have the same max speed, that is one of the many things that SFC got right.  The only thing we need to figure out -this is where I need help, is how much distance would equal 1% of speed.  Although here is a thought, what if instead of actual ship speed the game ties movement to a percentage of the map.  Although that might not work with fighter movement since the size of a fighter is such that it would never hit 100% movement, maybe 50%.

Any 'smaller is faster' rule should only apply to small craft.  WWII PT boats could run circles around destroyers because they were small enough to use 'surface effects.'  Small boats can go airborne, skipping across wave tops, while larger vessels would be crushed under their own weight.  For the rest of the Navy, the rule is the longer the hull, the faster the boat.  Now, you can weigh down a ship with weapons and armor, but remember, big old aircraft carriers are fast enough to outrun all their escorts, and even old WWII PT boats.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #170 on: July 07, 2014, 03:22:11 pm »

Any 'smaller is faster' rule should only apply to small craft.  WWII PT boats could run circles around destroyers because they were small enough to use 'surface effects.'  Small boats can go airborne, skipping across wave tops, while larger vessels would be crushed under their own weight.  For the rest of the Navy, the rule is the longer the hull, the faster the boat.  Now, you can weigh down a ship with weapons and armor, but remember, big old aircraft carriers are fast enough to outrun all their escorts, and even old WWII PT boats.

if this is involving Warp or Impulse engines then no as the laws of physics change.
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #171 on: July 07, 2014, 03:27:14 pm »
Top combat speed is top combat speed. What I think you guys are describing is acceleration curve, which is already part of SFC, and will be a part of SFC4.

Offline EschelonOfJudgemnt

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #172 on: July 07, 2014, 04:08:51 pm »
On the shield subject, you have a few things to consider.

First off, in the ST franchise, it is clear that shields degrade as they are damaged, and that you have multiple shields.  Also, the point that is less clear is if a shield can function after it has been penetrated.  I think I've seen both happen in the franchise, although generally once a shield is 'down' that angle is generally wide open to attack.

Another thing that is clear is that, if a shield is stronger than the attack, shields generally do not degrade.  Once the attack strength begins to exceed the shield's capacity to shed damage, that's when they begin to degrade.   Hence the tactic where an opponent focuses on one shield to bring it down.  I'm specifically thinking of the episode Elaine of Troyius, where Sulu kept trying to protect the #4 shield, yet the Klingon, with it's superior maneuverability, stayed focused on bringing the #4 shield down.

So I've suggested this before, and indeed have tested this design in a pen an paper game that I never released (might do that at some point, but with the energy allocation conventions I had going on, I'm thinking it would be better suited to a PC game).

Essentially, you can either have an omnifield (protects from all directions), specific shields (deflects attacks from specific facings), or a blend of the two.  ST Canon seems to suggest that there is an omnifield of sorts, as we've seen several instances of shields being completely down, as well as specific facings.   Also, it seems to take a few seconds for shields to be raised.  So I'll focus on the Omnifield aspect first.

You have a centralized field generator that is rated at "R '' power per phase/second/impulse.  This power amount is added to the field strength each phase, up to the maximum strength of the field  (determined by some multiplier, say 5xR.  So if your R rating is 6, you add 6 points per phase to your shield strength, up to a maximum of 30 strength.

What this does is to introduce a shield generation mechanic, so say if an attack is 6, and the regen is 6, well the shield fully regenerates the next phase.  If the attack is say 13, well then it'll take 2 phases to mostly regenerate the shield, and 3 phases to regenerate the 13th point.


Next comes the 'put more power into the forward shields' that we've heard so many times in episodes.  How I simulated this in my design was to allow power to be directly channeled into one (or more) facing(s) of my omnifield, which would temporarily increase the strength in that facing, but would disappate/force it's way through the bubble on the next phase.  I also did this with a 1 to 1 protection ratio, for simplicity.  So if you had a strength 30 omnifield, with 6 points of specific reinforcement that phase, that facing could dissapate 6 damage without affecting the omnifield, with additional points scored against the omnifield.

In my design, omnifields and specific reinforcement fields were separate components.  Essentially the omnifield was a central generator, with specific reinforcement arrays placed on the hull.  Hence specific reinforcement generators tended to get damaged first, but not all at once (a weapon hit strikes one part of a hull, not the entire hull).  So, as one side was damaged, specific reinforcement would degrade with each hit.

My rationale for specific reinforcement was you were 'pushing' a wall of energy against the shield sphere/bubble.  Said wall of energy would displace the bubble arc in that location, forcing the 'unbalanced' energy outward, away from the shield bubble, and integrating itself into the bubble in the process.  As the shield bubble could only maintain 'y' value due to the bubble neading to be equally balanced in order to maintain integrity, the unbalanced energy disappates into space.  BUT, that disappating energy would generate additional protection as it was being disappated.  Also, once a bubble hits it's maximum strength, excess energy  disappates into space, as the bubble can't sustain the addditional energy.

I also had an armor system in play, somewhat similar to Renegade Legion: Interceptor, but much simplified.  Essentially if a weapon hit was less than half of the armor rating, no damage.  If the damage was greater than half of the armor rating, that hull section was compromised, providing less protection from the next hit.  If it was penetrated, then that armor section was destroyed.  Each facing had multiple armor sections.  Example: A cruiser might have 6 different armor sections on each facing, so roll a d6 for each weapon hit to determine which armor section is hit by each weapon, then compare the damage against the armor rating in that section.

Anyways, back to the shield thing.  If an omnifield was compromised (damage exceeded total omnifield strength), then the omnifield would suffer feedback, degrading maximum capacity by 10% or some such.  Also, if the omnifield generator itself was struck, well obviously it would suffer damage/lose efficiency/perhaps be destroyed in the process if enough damage was assessed against it.

This system required a lot of bookkeeping, which is one of the reasons it didn't really catch on with my playtesters.  Essentiallly each phase, you'd have to adjust your omnifield strength.  Energy allocation could be changed each phase as well (we essentially have a 'real time' version in SFC), with allocation remaining the same until you changed it or your PP output decreased.  HOWEVER, with a computer tracking these nuances in the background, this system becomes very workable.

Oh, in my design, if the omnifield was destroyed, well you no longer have a shield bubble, so you can't reinforce it.   It didn't help that an omnifield was vulnerable from any facing, but at least it was a smaller target...  As for how that would apply in a ST setting, well it all depends on how 'vulnerable' you'd like it to be.

As for my rationale for the 'surface emitters', well in this design, the goal is to keep your omnifield functioning at full efficiency (it protects the whole ship), by providing additional protection over and above the capacity of the omnifield.  This also allows for differentiation in design (so you can have more emitters facing forward than aft, for example), to give players a reason to go for the 'weaker' areas.  In my design, specific reinforcement emitters were  generally rated at 2-3x the omnifield rating (worked out via my ship construction mechanics), so you might have an Omnifield 6, with 18 points of specific reinfocement emitters in the front, and say only 9 points in the rear.  Or 12 points of emitters all around if you were of a more balanced mentality.  Of course, if you have 6 field generators, this mechanic no longer applies, although it could be used as a baseline for maximum reinforcement.  (Feds might allow 3xR max reinforcement strength, over the field generator value, while Klingon shields only allow for 2x strength on the aft generators).  Again, this can be a place to differentiate ship/race designs. 

Based on the 'later' canon (TNG is pretty clear about the 'sphere' mechanic of the shields in the FX shots), though, I do think a centralized 'baseline' generator makes a lot of sense, with additional reinforcement capability over and above the baseline shield bubble.  If shields are just flat out 360 degrees though, then maneuverability plays less of a role, hence why I think there needs to be a differentiation mechanic between the facings.

To translate regen versus fire rate in a ST context, it might take 20-30 seconds (at normal game speed) to fully generate an omnifield, but phasers might recycle every 10 or so seconds...  It all comes down to how you want to time your weapon cycles, then dialing in the shield regen accordingly.

As I noted, this design is problematic using pen and paper (a lot of numbers to keep track of), but when the computer is doing the accounting for you, well then it becomes very workable/viable.



So, to summarize:
Either an omnifield or 4-6 separate field generators, or a combination of both.  Regenerate R points each phase/partial weapon cycle, to a maximuim amount (say Rx5, although this multiplier could vary by race/ship class/etc.).

Allow specific reinforcement as before, with damage scored against reinforcement first.  Perhaps incorporate a 'max reinforcement' value, based on the number of shield emitters available to that facing, or some multiple of the field generator strength for that facing.  If the hull is damaged from that facing, reduce (reinforcement) emitters strength by 1 per weapon hit or volley  (with multiple weapon strikes perhaps hitting more emitters).

So, as detailed in the paragraph above, Shield Emitters degrade as the hull is damaged.  Also, if damage exceeeds/downs a shield, that shield/field generator degrades in maximum strength (due to feedback damage).  This could also be done if damage exceeds some threshold - say if damage exceeds 2/3's of total shield strength, then max strength reduced 10%.  if penetrated, max strength reduced 20%.

One last thought.  On the 'regen per phase' thing.  In my design, weapons generally took 2 or more phases to recharge (lasers could fire every phase, but risked overheating).  So the shield regen rate/max strength  should be factored in against the recycle time of weapons.  Essentially, it should take at least 2-3x as long to fully (re)generate a shield than it does to arm/fire a phaser.  Otherwise you won't get the 'degrading' effect, and be able to take advantage of weakening shields (other than from feedback as detailed above).

And of course, damage control should be able to repair shields in some fashion.  This is one aspect of SFB/SFC that I always liked.  This allows for 'hit, run, repair, return' tactics, which makes the game a little more interesting.  And also ties in to the Canon material (the Captain delaying things in some fashion while the damage control teams work feverishly to restore some capability).

This could also introduce a 'break point' in technology.  I.E. earlier designs do not have/use a true 'omnifield', while later designs have an omnifield generator as well as specific field generators.  Essentially one tiered defense in some designs versus two tiered defense in others.


Anyways, that's how I envisioned shields working.  The SFB system is essentially powered abative armor, and while it worked, it didn't seem quite 'right' to me.  Hence why I am suggesting an alternate approach (to get us a bit 'away' from the shield boxes and developing a 'new' system that isn't the 'same' as ADB's solution).
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 07:36:19 pm by EschelonOfJudgemnt »

Offline Javora

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #173 on: July 07, 2014, 04:35:41 pm »
Hmmm
I would like more control of our power systems, yes like the battery system in SFC, although I feel it was never really on point as it should have been, but almost like STBC where I have control over where the power is sent to.
I hope I make sense Javora, a sliding system is easiest for quickness but whatever you guy decide is workable is fine by me. Also, why shouldn't you be able to allocate more power to shields to bring then to let's say, FWD SHD 125%

I don't see why we can't have all the ship controls that SFC OP had.  If anything we can improve on these controls to make them more user friendly.  That is the beauty of my "100% Game System" (sorry but I'm having fun with that lol), it scales easily.  I'm going to expand on your last question later, but short answer is I don't think a ship should have greater shield strength than a star base.  I star base IMHO should only be taken down by multiple ships. 


Btw. Although I agree with most of your suggestion, the shield I do not. I do believe percentages should be implemented and a frigate should say 100% shields when they are up before battle, whether their shield is 28 SFC points or 14 whatever for us to look at we should see percentages not colors.
If they are reinforced we should see that applied to the number.

I don't think that 100% should be a certain number for the shield that applies to all ships output but rather the individual ships capacity at the moment.
Do you get me?

Yeah I think I get what you are saying.  Try looking at it this way, a frigate captain would look at his shields at the start of combat and think his shields are at maximum.  But compared to a star base it is only 35%~40% or roughly half the strength of a BB.  With this system any ship can reinforce it's shields, the only thing that can't would be a star base and I don't want star bases to become indestructible.  When you think about it, is it really any different than SFC OP ?  Any ship in OP can only reinforce their shields so much.   


This would be so cool if we all had a conference room to sit down in, maybe a white board, all get together of food and drink and get to planning.   ;)

That would be cool to chat somehow.  I think it would speed things up.  But then again having it all written down makes it easier to make a list.  This got me thinking though, do we really want all this information out in the open.  Maybe it's time we pull a Taldren move this to a closed "Inner Circle" type forum where only people who have been here for years have access.  As it stands we don't know who is watching.

Offline Javora

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #174 on: July 07, 2014, 04:46:02 pm »
There is really nothing wrong with the shield color system in SFC, except that they never told us what the different colors mean besides Super Strong (White), Strong (Green), Medium (Yellow) and Weak (Red) all with faded lower halves to denote when you are closer to the next lower or higher color.  I think that it is highly recommended that the basic six shield system be retained as many other combat functions are tied to it in SFC, which for the moment is our primary guide. Adding in shield facings top and bottom may be something that needs to be done if 3D combat is realized. Any other configuration besides the one bubble shield type of thing can't really work well in that environment. A one bubble shield may work, but it will take some effort to figure out how to distribute damage that way.

This is what I figured we would do all along.  With the six sided shields and all.  We can denote each color equals 20% steps.  Red equals 20%, Orange equals 40%, Yellow equals 60%, Green equals 80%, and White equals 100%.  With step down/up colors as in SFC OP we can all know the shield strength just by looking at the screen.


Offline Corbomite

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #175 on: July 07, 2014, 04:59:23 pm »
That system denotes that their is only one shield at one strength level and that you are only powering it up just so much, like a light bulb only using 60w when it is rated for 100w. The color system is SFC denotes a particular strength rating. Some ships start with all red shields and that is their 100%.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #176 on: July 07, 2014, 05:00:04 pm »
Top combat speed is top combat speed. What I think you guys are describing is acceleration curve, which is already part of SFC, and will be a part of SFC4.

An acceleration curve is simply dependent on power to weight.  All things being the same, a ship the size of dreadnought without armor, armed only with a pop gun is going to be the fastest ship in the fleet.  A lot of people have this misconception that smaller ship are inherently faster.

Personally, I think the idea of speed should be built around cruisers being given the ideal power to weight ratio.  This is because the mission of these ships is to 'Boldly go where no one has gone before.'  This is the very reason why they are called 'cruisers.'  Battleships (lets drop the SFB lingo where we can) are 'capital ships,' so you load them down with as much arms and armor as you can get away with, and still make it to the objective.  Destroyers and smaller vessels have to compromise speed for durability and firepower.

if this is involving Warp or Impulse engines then no as the laws of physics change.

Mainly, I write these things to remind people that big ships tend to be faster than small ships.  It's a common misconception that 'smaller is faster,' and you see people repeating it on every game board.  Bigger ships have more room for bigger engines, and in space, the limits on scale are beyond our comprehension.

There are other considerations, though.  Starships are designed to run for months on end, without stopping.  Something like a fighter can be engineered to operate for very a limited time.  When the Soviets operated Mig-15s during the Korean 'Police Action,' the ground crews swapped out the engines after every sortie, getting a fresh one out of a crate and sending the used one back to Russia to be rebuilt.  Obviously, this sort of maintenance routine would be impractical for something a big and heavily armored as a destroyer escort.  I don't think giving a ship that requires 8 hours maintenance for every hour of service some advantage in speed is completely off base.  It's not a difference in physics, but a difference in engineering requirements.

Of course, there may be aliens whose 'fighters' make our battleships look like children's toys.
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Offline Captain Adam

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #177 on: July 07, 2014, 05:45:00 pm »
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:56:27 pm by Captain Adam »

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #178 on: July 07, 2014, 06:01:52 pm »
Ok guys here's the game plan as it stands now:

1) Exeter is going to try to match the unit movement and handling and the informational UI's of SFC as much as possible, with improvements in several areas.

2) Many aspects of the game will be manipulative fields from inside the game including: Ship design from the ground up, models of ships, planets and all other units with Hard Point UI's designable by the players, weapons To Hit and Damage charts, weapon types, most if not all of the graphics will be able to be replaced, including 2D UI skins which will be create-able by players to distribute.

3) The tactical "engine" will be based on SFB/SFC, but will be mod-able enough to make most, if not all, happy. There will be some things "set in stone", i.e. you will need to convince Exeter to change them in the code if you want them changed.


That's as much "plan" as I can give you at this time. We still need moving ships.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 06:30:33 pm by Corbomite »

Offline Captain Adam

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Re: Ruleset and other game play Specifics
« Reply #179 on: July 07, 2014, 06:48:11 pm »
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:56:38 pm by Captain Adam »