Topic: Favorite SFC time period

[FPF-DieHard]

Just thinking of the good old days of killing Hexx. 

Anywhoo, what was your favorite D2 time-period?

[knightstorm]

Hard to say, I like mid because I love flying the F-DDL+.  But I also love the ultimate evolutions of the command variants in the late era.  Although, I can't say I like alot of the super cheese that comes with it, although I prefer those ships to adv.  I really can't stand early era because the ships are castrated.  The only reason to fly them is to get better at power management so you can be deadly when you fly something with juice.

[Nemesis]

Early.  The ships still have flaws and weaknesses.   Before all the customizations designed to make "God Ships". 

[Age]

I like all the eras all depends on which ship you have only thing I don't like is all the big iron.

[knightstorm]

Early.  The ships still have flaws and weaknesses.   Before all the customizations designed to make "God Ships".

You're not a fed, and you have a background in SFB.  What I hate about the early era is that the lack of power causes feds to have a hard time handling plasma.  In SFB its balanced by the fact that the only plasma armed enemies that the feds have to face are roms flying old series ships which can only make speed 31 if they go to condition green and don't flush the toilets.  In SFC you might end up facing Gorns a non-traditional enemy or early era ISC which I believe is a Taldren creation.  I've found that unless I have a wing I can trust, I have to switch races for early era GSA/Gameranger matches.

[Age]

Why wasn't that balanced out properly then giving the FCA-36 Warp Power and mid era 38 for all refitted?I often wondered this.Why can't it be done to day?

[Nemesis]

Early.  The ships still have flaws and weaknesses.   Before all the customizations designed to make "God Ships".

You're not a fed, and you have a background in SFB.  What I hate about the early era is that the lack of power causes feds to have a hard time handling plasma.  In SFB its balanced by the fact that the only plasma armed enemies that the feds have to face are roms flying old series ships which can only make speed 31 if they go to condition green and don't flush the toilets.  In SFC you might end up facing Gorns a non-traditional enemy or early era ISC which I believe is a Taldren creation.  I've found that unless I have a wing I can trust, I have to switch races for early era GSA/Gameranger matches.

When I play Fed I still prefer early. 

The ISC is the whole "God Ships" from the beginning of their design concept and I dislike them a great deal. 

[Captain Adam]

.

[Nemesis]

The original core SFB races all had defects.  The later races avoided those defects and in some cases were designed to capitalize on them (Hellbore, ESG, PhG).   Those defects made the game fun.  Learning to handle your opponents in spite of your defects made it a challenge.  X-Ships are boring. 

[Captain Adam]

.

[knightstorm]

Why wasn't that balanced out properly then giving the FCA-36 Warp Power and mid era 38 for all refitted?I often wondered this.Why can't it be done to day?

That would probably make them more powerful against their traditional enemies which would screw up game balance also.

The original core SFB races all had defects.  The later races avoided those defects and in some cases were designed to capitalize on them (Hellbore, ESG, PhG).   Those defects made the game fun.  Learning to handle your opponents in spite of your defects made it a challenge.  X-Ships are boring.

And if SFC didn't force you to deal with non-traditional enemies, I'd agree with you.

[Nemesis]

Take out the ISC and X-Ships.  No one else is a serious issue.

ISC ships can't be used as designed due to the lack of ability to run an echelon.

Even as is I can compete with any race while flying almost any race (Gorn and ISC tubs don't match my style).   

[Age]

Why wasn't that balanced out properly then giving the FCA-36 Warp Power and mid era 38 for all refitted?I often wondered this.Why can't it be done to day?

That would probably make them more powerful against their traditional enemies which would screw up game balance also.

I guess their traditional enemies would be Klingons,Romulans and sometimes Gorn this being canon.They are still some what under powered.

[Nemesis]

What other CAs of that time have that much power?

[Age]

I would say they are about the same how ever the Fed CA would have slinghly more as they take on longer deploymant this being canon of coarse.

[Nemesis]

Gotcha.  You want YOUR chosen race to have the "God Ships".

Try using a Z-CS or a R-WB in early then you might understand truly underpowered.

[Age]

I was referring to the TV show as in traditional enemies not the game.

[knightstorm]

Why wasn't that balanced out properly then giving the FCA-36 Warp Power and mid era 38 for all refitted?I often wondered this.Why can't it be done to day?

That would probably make them more powerful against their traditional enemies which would screw up game balance also.

I guess their traditional enemies would be Klingons,Romulans and sometimes Gorn this being canon.They are still some what under powered.

By traditional enemies, I mean Klingons, Romulans, and Lyrans.  The Gorn are allies of the feds in SFB, which is part of the reason the F-CA really isn't balanced to fight against them.  I disagree with you about the CA needing more power to fight the Klingons, Romulans, and Lyrans.

Even as is I can compete with any race while flying almost any race (Gorn and ISC tubs don't match my style).   

Well, then you must be a particularly exceptional player.  I've found that the F-CA is pretty much a death trap against a G-CA with a halfway competent human pilot.  Fighting the ISC Early CA is even worse.

I was referring to the TV show as in traditional enemies not the game.

This is supposed to be a discussion about the game.  Canon Trek is fun to watch, but it doesn't provide good gameplay.

[FPF-DieHard]

Early.  The ships still have flaws and weaknesses.   Before all the customizations designed to make "God Ships".

You're not a fed, and you have a background in SFB.  What I hate about the early era is that the lack of power causes feds to have a hard time handling plasma.  In SFB its balanced by the fact that the only plasma armed enemies that the feds have to face are roms flying old series ships which can only make speed 31 if they go to condition green and don't flush the toilets.  In SFC you might end up facing Gorns a non-traditional enemy or early era ISC which I believe is a Taldren creation.  I've found that unless I have a wing I can trust, I have to switch races for early era GSA/Gameranger matches.

LOL . . . the plasma ships were pretty sh*tty back then as well.

[knightstorm]

Early.  The ships still have flaws and weaknesses.   Before all the customizations designed to make "God Ships".

You're not a fed, and you have a background in SFB.  What I hate about the early era is that the lack of power causes feds to have a hard time handling plasma.  In SFB its balanced by the fact that the only plasma armed enemies that the feds have to face are roms flying old series ships which can only make speed 31 if they go to condition green and don't flush the toilets.  In SFC you might end up facing Gorns a non-traditional enemy or early era ISC which I believe is a Taldren creation.  I've found that unless I have a wing I can trust, I have to switch races for early era GSA/Gameranger matches.

LOL . . . the plasma ships were pretty sh*tty back then as well.

The problem is the F-CA doesn't have the power for traditional anti-plasma tactics.  Its not so much of a problem against he R-WE which doesn't have the power for traditional plasma tactics, but against the Gorn and ISC....

[Nemesis]

Then use non traditional tactics.  Adapt, improvise. 

Your boost to fight the non traditional enemies means you are boosted vs the traditional ones.  Now you need to boost them and so on and so forth. 

Easier just to delete the ISC or recategorize all their ships as one size class higher to reflect their true power. 

[knightstorm]

Your boost to fight the non traditional enemies means you are boosted vs the traditional ones.  Now you need to boost them and so on and so forth. 

Which is what I get by not flying early era.  All I've been trying to do is explain why I hate early era.  Due to the nature of SFC, my prefered race has to tangle with ships that it was not designed to fight, and is poorly equipped to fight.  Especially in GSA type matches where everyone wants plasma, and noone wants war eagles.

[Nemesis]

So does everyone else.  Think the Klingons have it easy vs the ISC?

[Tus-XC]

I voted early... and i'm a rom pilot .  I likes people underestimating my sh*tely powered ships

[knightstorm]

I voted early... and i'm a rom pilot .  I likes people underestimating my sh*tely powered ships

You don't need power when you have a cloak, an R-Torp, and the patience to prolong the match for 5 hours.

[Corbomite]

You guys should just outlaw the ISC in Early Era. 40 power, 8 PH-1's and 3 G-Torps with liberal arcs on a CA in Early? Most dreds couldn't compete with that in that time period. At least the ISC-DN sucks pretty badly. That thing can barely move.

[knightstorm]

You guys should just outlaw the ISC in Early Era. 40 power, 8 PH-1's and 3 G-Torps with liberal arcs on a CA in Early? Most dreds couldn't compete with that in that time period. At least the ISC-DN sucks pretty badly. That thing can barely move.

If you outlaw a race you just guarantee that some idiot won't listen and will fly it anyway.  Its like how I tried having matches with 400 bpv to choose CL sized hulls with D2 loadouts.  Some idiot always failed to listen and took a BBZ.

[FPF-DieHard]

Back on topic . . .

The "medium drone" era is my favorite.  More "character" ships are available without the complete and utter cheese-fest we see post 2280. 

[Corbomite]

You guys should just outlaw the ISC in Early Era. 40 power, 8 PH-1's and 3 G-Torps with liberal arcs on a CA in Early? Most dreds couldn't compete with that in that time period. At least the ISC-DN sucks pretty badly. That thing can barely move.

If you outlaw a race you just guarantee that some idiot won't listen and will fly it anyway.  Its like how I tried having matches with 400 bpv to choose CL sized hulls with D2 loadouts.  Some idiot always failed to listen and took a BBZ.

Fixing that is simple: Just have their wings back off while the three of you pound them to death and I pretty much guarantee they won't do it again if they want to play with you.

[Corbomite]

Back on topic . . .

The "medium drone" era is my favorite.  More "character" ships are available without the complete and utter cheese-fest we see post 2280.

I like all eras as they all have their perks and drawbacks. I hate X-Ships, but I love X-Phasers, that kind of thing.

[knightstorm]

You guys should just outlaw the ISC in Early Era. 40 power, 8 PH-1's and 3 G-Torps with liberal arcs on a CA in Early? Most dreds couldn't compete with that in that time period. At least the ISC-DN sucks pretty badly. That thing can barely move.

If you outlaw a race you just guarantee that some idiot won't listen and will fly it anyway.  Its like how I tried having matches with 400 bpv to choose CL sized hulls with D2 loadouts.  Some idiot always failed to listen and took a BBZ.

Fixing that is simple: Just have their wings back off while the three of you pound them to death and I pretty much guarantee they won't do it again if they want to play with you.

Getting his wings to agree would be difficult.  There just aren't enough players anymore.

[Corbomite]

Getting his wings to agree would be difficult.  There just aren't enough players anymore.

Then it wouldn't be worth dealing with, at least for me. In my single player conquest campaign setup I have 224 playable missions with a choice of up to six missions everytime I move into a hex over five strategic levels (Scout/Exploration, FF/DD, CL/CM, CA/CCH and BCH/DN/BB). I found that I could make powerful AI enemies to fight everyone in a mission by gutting the Neutral Orions and creating (still working on it actually) a specialized shiplist that includes Borg, Andros, Tholians, Jindarians, Unidentified Aliens, B5 Shadow Vessels, new Monsters like Space Dragons and over half a dozen unmanned Probes including Scout Probes, Drone Probes, Plasma Probes and Minelayer Probes. It is a bit of a handful to manage as each layer requires it's own map and saved campaign and needs to coordinate with the other four through me, but since I'm the only one on the map it's easy enough to keep a captain's log to know where I am at each junction in a hex. I never have to play the same mission over and over again to capture a hex. I go in and run a series of missions that build up to a final mission such as a Base/Planet Assault to capture a hex. The AI may be stupid, but on admiral level with the right setup it can give you an enjoyable game that doesn't complain or not follow instructions.

[knightstorm]

But the AI won't laugh at my crude jokes.

[Corbomite]

You wouldn't have much time for jokes if you met a Borg cube. I balanced it against me in a fully stocked I-BBZ and the best I've been able to do so far 1v1 is survive half to mostly wrecked, repairing the entire time and hoping it doesn't hit me again on an already downed shield. I figure if the AI can make you run once in awhile it seems about right. Luckily, you usually only meet them in fleet encounters with the enemy there to help until the real threat is gone, then you try to kill each other with what you have left.

[Nemesis]

Does CE have the ISC?  Based on EAW I would suppose not.  Which solves a lot of issues.

Alternately a new ship list with realistic early era ISC ships.  This is a time frame where according to SFB canon they were peaceful and shocked by what they saw in the other races nearby.  Their ships should actually be pathetic as they are just anti pirate ships as they have no known enemies yet.  Their uber ships were specifically designed to handle General War enemies and shouldn't show up until that era.  X-Ships were anti ISC/anti Andromedan designs. 

[knightstorm]

Does CE have the ISC?  Based on EAW I would suppose not.  Which solves a lot of issues.

Alternately a new ship list with realistic early era ISC ships.  This is a time frame where according to SFB canon they were peaceful and shocked by what they saw in the other races nearby.  Their ships should actually be pathetic as they are just anti pirate ships as they have no known enemies yet.  Their uber ships were specifically designed to handle General War enemies and shouldn't show up until that era.  X-Ships were anti ISC/anti Andromedan designs.

ISC is in EAW.  They're on the cover.  OP has cartels and adv ships.

[Nemesis]

Its been years since I played EAW or seen the box.  Take them out and put in the FRAX.

[Age]

Why wasn't that balanced out properly then giving the FCA-36 Warp Power and mid era 38 for all refitted?I often wondered this.Why can't it be done to day?

That would probably make them more powerful against their traditional enemies which would screw up game balance also.

I guess their traditional enemies would be Klingons,Romulans and sometimes Gorn this being canon.They are still some what under powered.

By traditional enemies, I mean Klingons, Romulans, and Lyrans.  The Gorn are allies of the feds in SFB, which is part of the reason the F-CA really isn't balanced to fight against them.  I disagree with you about the CA needing more power to fight the Klingons, Romulans, and Lyrans.

Even as is I can compete with any race while flying almost any race (Gorn and ISC tubs don't match my style).   

Well, then you must be a particularly exceptional player.  I've found that the F-CA is pretty much a death trap against a G-CA with a halfway competent human pilot.  Fighting the ISC Early CA is even worse.

I was referring to the TV show as in traditional enemies not the game.

This is supposed to be a discussion about the game.  Canon Trek is fun to watch, but it doesn't provide good gameplay.

When you say traditional enemies it sounds like those of the TV show which are the Klingons,Roms or coukd be Gorn.When it comes to the Game I would say Klingons,Roms and ISC not so much Lyran.

[knightstorm]

When you say traditional enemies it sounds like those of the TV show which are the Klingons,Roms or coukd be Gorn.When it comes to the Game I would say Klingons,Roms and ISC not so much Lyran.

When I say traditional enemies, I mean traditional enemies from SFB.  After all, we are talking about a game based on SFB.  The Lyrans are allies of the Klingons.  The ISC isn't supposed to show up until much later, which makes them non-traditional enemies for early era feds.

[Nemesis]

The ISC isn't supposed to show up until much later, which makes them non-traditional enemies for early era feds.

In early they are non traditional enemies for everyone.

[Age]

When you say traditional enemies it sounds like those of the TV show which are the Klingons,Roms or coukd be Gorn.When it comes to the Game I would say Klingons,Roms and ISC not so much Lyran.

When I say traditional enemies, I mean traditional enemies from SFB.  After all, we are talking about a game based on SFB.  The Lyrans are allies of the Klingons.  The ISC isn't supposed to show up until much later, which makes them non-traditional enemies for early era feds.

They may not on a server but they show up early in SP campaign in EAW.I would say Klingons and Romulans.

Orignally Posted by Nemesis Try using a Z-CS or a R-WB in early then you might understand truly underpowered.

The Z-CS is fine although there is no R-WB only WB+ in Opplus.

[Javora]

Hard to say, I like mid because I love flying the F-DDL+.  But I also love the ultimate evolutions of the command variants in the late era.

You really like the DDL+ ??!?  I'd take a FFL+ any day of the week over a DDL+.  The lack of missiles or AMD makes that ship useless IMHO.   The added Photons IMHO doesn't make up the difference.  In fact I could inflict more damage than photons by routing Celine Dion's The Power of Love through the deflecter dish.  lol

[Corbomite]

Hard to say, I like mid because I love flying the F-DDL+.  But I also love the ultimate evolutions of the command variants in the late era.

You really like the DDL+ ??!?  I'd take a FFL+ any day of the week over a DDL+.  The lack of missiles or AMD makes that ship useless IMHO.   The added Photons IMHO doesn't make up the difference.  In fact I could inflict more damage than photons by routing Celine Dion's The Power of Love through the deflecter dish.  lol

Huh?

23  Power, 2 PlasF,  2 Phot,  6 Ph-1 and 2 Ph-3.  Who needs Drones or AMD with that? Not much in that class would survive long enough to make a dent. With free holding F torps it lets you OL the Photons and still have enough unstoppable firepower to make an anchor viable even if you have to use all your phasers and tractors for PD.

[Javora]

Good luck charging all of that with 23 power.  And if that DDL+ has to go up against a ship with 4 or more fast  missiles than that DDL+ will be a cloud of dust in about 10 minutes.

[Corbomite]

Good luck charging all of that with 23 power.  And if that DDL+ has to go up against a ship with 4 or more fast  missiles than that DDL+ will be a cloud of dust in about 10 minutes.

Lol. Drones are the easiest things to defend against in the game. And it has no problem charging, you just have to be smart about it. That ship is one of the few smaller than a CA/MC that can get away with castling. It also has enough power to run and gun if you play it like an ISC ship.

[Javora]

Actually I think I could take down a F-DDL+ with a F-CDL+.  Keep at about range 30, with ECM at about 3 or more.  That will make the photons practically useless and the Plasma-F won't reach out that far.  You can castle all you want, eventually those shields will come down with 6 fast missiles per volly.  Because eventually I will overpower your phaser bank.  I don't have to worry about missiles because you don't have any.  From there it is just a matter of position, running you out of WW and mines, not that you have that many to begin with.  Except mines won't work that well if you are castling.  Since a F-CDL+ has 30 power, keeping ECM and phasers charged won't be a problem let alone reinforcing the shields in case I catch you while you are charging both photons and plasmas.

[Corbomite]

Let's forget for a moment that you are comparing a CL to a DD and have 15 BPV in your favor before any space dock and that the CLD+ (I assume that's what you meant) has 28 power, not 30; hmm, 6 drones per volley and the DDL+ has 8 Phasers and 2 Tractors. When will I need WW and mines after you use your shuts for SP's? And I could afford to run and gun you for several turns to deplete your supplies since you have no real long range HW either and the DDL+ has enough power to run ECCM. I'm not saying that the DDL+ is an optimal drone killer, but it can manage it fairly well if you don't panic and use supplies wisely.

[knightstorm]

Good luck charging all of that with 23 power.  And if that DDL+ has to go up against a ship with 4 or more fast  missiles than that DDL+ will be a cloud of dust in about 10 minutes.

As long as you don't try to charge everything at once, you can charge while going at speed 31.  F-torps don't have a holding cost.  Your reaction is part of the reason why I like the DDL+.  People see the letters F and DD and automatically assume that its a death trap.  Then they get their *sses kicked.  Another hidden advantage is that it has 4 labs which gives it a high shield regeneration rate for its bpv.

[Javora]

Yeah Corbomite, I was thinking CLD+ thank you.  Although I didn't think it had 15 extra BPV, maybe I was thinking of a plain CLD.  IIRC the only difference between the two ships is shield strength.  With six missiles, the CLD can't use SP's because the ship loses track of missiles.  If I used SP's the  missiles would end up sitting in the launch tubes.

The plan here would be to fire fast missiles as soon as they load at range ~30 to over power the phasers recharge rate and phaser bank.  With 30 power the CLD can keep ECM at six and still add power to the shields.  I don't have to worry about tractors and I can use phasers in a pinch whereas the DDL+ is using phasers to dodge missiles.  That is, if the phasers can do enough damage to the missiles to destroy it on the first shot, that doesn't always happen.  Once it takes more than one phaser to destroy a missile, a DDL+ has to rely on tractors, mines, WW, or worse yet shields.

[Corbomite]

Again the CLD+ only has 28 power and it has a .75 move cost compared to the DDL+'s .67, also it does have 12 drone control. With the ability to run at speed 24 holding all weapons while having 6 points left over for EW, what makes you think I'll let you stay at range 30? Even if you try to keep ahead you will run out of map at some point. All I have to do is avoid a large missile hit and try to rotate the shields that might/do get hit until I get a good firing solution. I have seen that ship do almost 90 points in one pass with OL Photons. Getting 2/3 of that would still be a great hit.

[knightstorm]

Again the CLD+ only has 28 power and it has a .75 move cost compared to the DDL+'s .67

Actually, DDL+ is .5 movement cost.

[Corbomite]

Again the CLD+ only has 28 power and it has a .75 move cost compared to the DDL+'s .67

Actually, DDL+ is .5 movement cost.

You are right. I brain farted on that one!

[Javora]

Hold up are you talking SFC II or SFC OP.  I'm talking OP here with the 2.5.5.2 patch.  The CLD+ (and CLD) has total warp power of 24, impulse power of 4, and auxiliary power of 2 for a total engine power of 30 with a .75 movement ratio, I just looked.  This does not include the battery power of 2.

With 12 drone control just makes my job easier.  Mind you I can do the above at speed 31 while you are only doing 24.  While that might mean I'm doing laps around the map if you force me to, there is no way under those conditions that you are getting that close to me unless I want you to.

Good luck hitting anything with those photons when the target is running six ECM.  I've seen eight OL photons fly off into the darkness under those conditions.  In fact that very situation started the most heated thread on the old Taldren board that I ever started named "At less then one" range.  At that point you might want to load up that Celine Dion CD.  lol.

[Corbomite]

If you are using the stock shiplist the CLD+ has 30 power. If you are using OP+ , like Knightstorm and I, it only has 28 power. I may not be able to catch you, but I can use up all your drones and then what do you do? Besides, I can still proxy and phaser you from ~12 and still get through your shields eventually while evading the brunt of your drones. That ship can put up 6 ECCM to counter your ECM and hit with 83% at range 12 with proxies.


EDIT: Just took the CLD+ out for a spin. It can go 31 with 0.2 points left over, so even with the extra 2 power it wouldn't have enough to have 6 ECM at 31. You can go 23.25 with 6 ECM. You sure you're thinking of that ship?

[Javora]

Yep, I just did the same thing with the configuration I listed above, max power of 30.  You are right about the speed, I was only able to get up to a speed of 26 with 6 ECM.  At speed 31 I was able to reach 2 1/3 ECM.  I'm still not convinced that you can get that close.  With 6 ECM the photons were hitting about 1 in 7~8 and that is with the computer's ECCM cranked.

I took the CLD+ up against a NEC with 5 AMD's and on the first run I was still getting missiles past it's defenses.  On the second run I wrecked the NEC at about the 11 minute mark.  I don't think that a DDL+ can do as good let alone a better job.  Especially if the ship is chasing me, because the ship has to turn and drop a mine, not easy to do at range ~30.

The other thing I noted is that the DDL+ only has 4 mines and 2 shuttles.  The CLD+ starts with 90 missiles and 2 shuttles.  With 2 SP's I'm left with 13 full volleys up against the DDL+ defenses.  Even if the DDL+ can stop a volley every time it uses a mine or shuttle, what is it going to do against the other 7 volleys and 2 SP's?

[singing]
Whispers in the morning...
[/singing]

lol

[knightstorm]

The other thing I noted is that the DDL+ only has 4 mines and 2 shuttles.  The CLD+ starts with 90 missiles and 2 shuttles.  With 2 SP's I'm left with 13 full volleys up against the DDL+ defenses.  Even if the DDL+ can stop a volley every time it uses a mine or shuttle, what is it going to do against the other 7 volleys and 2 SP's?

Are you forgetting the six phaser 1s, and 2 phaser 3s.

[Corbomite]

Wait, let me get this straight: you think I am no better than the AI?  Since when do I have to turn to drop a mine? I have transporters, and since you have no DFHW and want to stay far away, there is no reason not to drop a shield and use them. I also have time and patience on my side. Even still you are comparing ships that will have a 151 point difference in BPV after space dock and I still think I could manage it. Your resources are limited, mine are infinite. The CLD+ only gets 2 shuttles total, but it seems we are talking about two different ships anyway as Firesoul seems to have adjusted the CLD+ back to SFB specs.

[KBF-Korgal]

A modest proposal: why don't you guys trade IP addresses and take this out of the theoretical?

[Corbomite]

A modest proposal: why don't you guys trade IP addresses and take this out of the theoretical?

Because I don't even know why we're discussing this at all. With a 151 BPV difference at full loadout I'd think the best tactic would be to take one to the face and then death drag the DDL+ to death while repairing madly. I'm debating his tactics against the DDL+ with a superior ship, not the superiority of the ships. Besides, I'm not claiming I'd win, I'm just claiming that it is possible due to the strange configuration of stars that makes the DDL+ a better ship than it looks on paper, which is what I believe Knightstorm was trying to get across.

[knightstorm]

I've beaten players flying a D5D with fast drones using a CLC.  The same basic tactics would probably apply well to this matchup, the only difference would be that I would need to be a little more careful since I wouldn't have the AMD to save my @$$ if I screwed up.  However, the CLD+ would be in a similar position because if they made a mistake, they'd be facing 2 F torps against their paper thin shields.  Part of the beauty of the DDL+ is that I can turn off the photons, and charge plasma while running at speed 31 if I need to.

[Corbomite]

Yeah, but you also have nothing heavy that fires backwards and a lousy HET %. If a larger hull ship decides to take the beating and chase you down your pretty helpless if they can survive long enough to grab you. Now if you decide to go head to head...

[knightstorm]

Yeah, well obviously I'm not going be flying it one on one vs a ship that can pull that off, and I don't think the CLD could take that kind of a beating considering how pathetic its shields are.  Javora would need at least an NCD to pull of the tactics he wants.

[Corbomite]

I agree. Both ships have the potential to whack each other pretty well. It's just a matter of not getting whacked in the process. Also, he is used to a ship with 2 more power. In OP+ it would be different.

[Javora]

Are you forgetting the six phaser 1s, and 2 phaser 3s.

What, do you think that NEC has no phasers??!?

I picked a NEC because I wanted something with superior AMD defense to help make up going up against an AI.  And I'm susposed to believe that a DDL+ is going to be even better at missile defense??!?  And no I'm not trying to compare a person to a stupid AI, I was trying to gauge the effectiveness of the missiles.

While a CLD+ may have a limited amount of missiles, a DDL+ has even fewer non-phaser defenses.  Once the DDL+ runs out of what few mines and WW it has out comes the SP and missile combos.

A CLD+ isn't going to need a massive shield defense because that DDL+ isn't going to get that close anyway.  And BTW my original argument was that a simular ship with 4 or more fast missiles would smoke a DDL+.  So I don't want to hear about BPV or custom mods you all knew the claim I made before this discussion started.  I'm also not trying to make this personal, what I am trying to say is that a missile ship would smoke a non-missile ship of simular size (without cloak).

[Corbomite]

While a CLD+ may have a limited amount of missiles, a DDL+ has even fewer non-phaser defenses.  Once the DDL+ runs out of what few mines and WW it has out comes the SP and missile combos.

And we keep telling you that with the ability to handle 10 drones per turn, when would those WW and mines need to be used without a SP on the board? Plus you want to stay at range 30, which eats up fuel and gives the drones less time to chase at close range and overwhelm defenses.

A CLD+ isn't going to need a massive shield defense because that DDL+ isn't going to get that close anyway.

In your opinion.

And BTW my original argument was that a simular ship with 4 or more fast missiles would smoke a DDL+.  So I don't want to hear about BPV or custom mods you all knew the claim I made before this discussion started.

You're the one who brought the lopsided example. You're the one who said fast drones which inflate your combat BPV. All I said in response to your original claim was that Drones were the easiest things in the game to defend against.

I'm also not trying to make this personal, what I am trying to say is that a missile ship would smoke a non-missile ship of simular size (without cloak).

We obviously don't agree on this as that would make just about every Gorn and ISC ship useless against droners, and I know that isn't true since I have destroyed many flying those races.

[knightstorm]

Are you forgetting the six phaser 1s, and 2 phaser 3s.

What, do you think that NEC has no phasers??!?

I picked a NEC because I wanted something with superior AMD defense to help make up going up against an AI.  And I'm susposed to believe that a DDL+ is going to be even better at missile defense??!?  And no I'm not trying to compare a person to a stupid AI, I was trying to gauge the effectiveness of the missiles.

The AI is particularly poor against seeking weapons which is why it makes even more of a difference than it would in a normal human AI match.  A full salvo from a CLD can really mess up if not destroy any ship smaller than a DN, but a human pilot who knows what they're doing isn't going to make landing that salvo easy.

Are you forgetting the six phaser 1s, and 2 phaser 3s.

While a CLD+ may have a limited amount of missiles, a DDL+ has even fewer non-phaser defenses.  Once the DDL+ runs out of what few mines and WW it has out comes the SP and missile combos.

A CLD+ isn't going to need a massive shield defense because that DDL+ isn't going to get that close anyway.  And BTW my original argument was that a simular ship with 4 or more fast missiles would smoke a DDL+.

If you're not coming close enough for the DDL+ to land plasma than you're not getting close enough to land missiles.  A fast drone takes time to catch up with a ship moving at speed 31, that's enough time that the DDL+'s phasers will be able to handle them.  If you try to get close enough to make your drones go through you're going to get hurt by the F-Torps.

So I don't want to hear about BPV or custom mods you all knew the claim I made before this discussion started.

We're talking about OP+ which has been the defacto shiplist for multiplayer games for years.

what I am trying to say is that a missile ship would smoke a non-missile ship of simular size (without cloak).

And I would have to respectfully disagree on that point.

[Javora]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't see either of us getting convinced by the others arguments.  I can only hope that we can figure out this Win V/7/8 issue and play multiplayer again some day.

As for my Favorite SFC time period it's 2275, because my favorite ship in the game was the F-FFL+.

[knightstorm]

OP does work on Vista/7.  Its just the dynaverse that doesn't work right.  You can still have IP matches.

[FPF-DieHard]

A modest proposal: why don't you guys trade IP addresses and take this out of the theoretical?

Fug, I can't even beat the AI anymore.  I have to stay in the realm of theory. 

Also, taking this to IP adds skill to the equation.  When discussing this kinda thing skill is best left out of the equation.

[FPF-DieHard]

OP does work on Vista/7.  Its just the dynaverse that doesn't work right.  You can still have IP matches.

Correct.

[Age]

Good luck charging all of that with 23 power.  And if that DDL+ has to go up against a ship with 4 or more fast  missiles than that DDL+ will be a cloud of dust in about 10 minutes.

I did fine with a FDD+ vs K-D5D.