Topic: What ever Happened to the Consitution and what is the difference between the Con

[TAnimaL]

Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

No Tulwar, nothing obtuse there, just trying to avoid the flamewars that begin with someone whose name starts with "A" stating flatly that Miranda "IS A MEDIUM CRUISER," or someone else starts in with "I decided it's a frigate." Fanboys do get their panties in a wad over nothing sometimes and I was just trying to sum up that it appears everyone here agrees Miranda is some type of cruiser, not a destroyer. The only canon is what is on screen, not in any manual/book, and even if a non-JJ Trek were to ever come along, I doubt they'll leap to address this "issue." We will never know, and no one will ever be "right" or "wrong" on this.

While the Reliant model might have a bunch of bits on the surface, we never see them used as phasers, so they might not be, or maybe just low powered point defense. Khan seems to have rather use a sneak attack rather than a straight up fight with E, so they at least have to be closely matched. Capt Adam, I always took the code "NCM" just being a contraction of "New Cruiser - Light; Miranda variant" for SFC purposes. Many have imagined what's going on with Miranda (nee Avenger) phasers; below is some data from "Starship Designs" from 1984. Doesn't really answer much ultimately.

[TAnimaL]

Don Karange, thanks for those. At least the Ex Astris site stays with the on-screen stuff; as interesting as the ditl.org site is, it becomes a recursive argument using non-canon support to justify more non-canon suppositions. And Cynus X1 is always a good source of the variety of fan-produced schematics & blueprints.

One line of thought on "Enterprise" and "In A Mirror Darkly" Defiant is that the mirror timeline changes after the events of that ep, and the future is changed and not the same one visited by Kirk et. al. in "Mirror Mirror." For me, I rather think that right after "In A Mirror.." ended, "something" happened to Defiant and it was destroyed. The Empire had an idea of what a Connie was but didn't have the ship to duplicate anymore.

[Tulwar]

Sorry TAnimal, it's just that you can't call any of this stuff anything.  Whatever you call it is whatever it is for your particular application.  To me, the Miranda is a wild card that doesn't seem to fit in anywhere.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Someone pointed out years ago, when the debate of just what those Phasers on the Miranda are was raging back then,  (It's always amusing when the same debates are had repeatedly) that if you removed the Phaser Banks from the Constitution's or the Miranda's Saucer, they would match exactly the dimensions of the "Mega-Phaser" mounts on the roll-bar.

The Miranda IS better armed than the Constitution.  But not by much.  The Miranda and the Constitution have the same number of saucer Phasers pointing in the same directions.  The Miranda has the two "Roll Bar" Phasers that fire forward and back, for a total of 4 more phasers.  The Constitution has those 4 phasers mounted on the Ventral side of the Engineering hull, presumably covering 360 degrees of the Ventral Arc.  The Miranda has two forward torpedo tubes, and two aft torpedo tubes, while the Constitution only has 2 forward tubes.  Now, a question remains as to whether the Miranda could fire the forward and aft tubes simultaneously, I would say no, but the versatility of being able to fire torpedoes behind you, which the Constitution, lacks gives it an edge in that category.  Also the Constitution has 2 Phaser Banks covering the rear arc (above the shuttle bay) which I do not see any similar mounts on the Miranda.  (understandable, the roll bar covers that arc nicely)  Based on armament, even though the extra versatility of the aft firing torpedoes helps, I can't justify calling the Miranda a Battle Cruiser.  Medium or Heavy Cruiser is what I would say it's initial designation was.  There is also a question of how durable the ship is, while it's hard to determine from TWOK, it does seem that the Enterprise was able to take more damage than the Reliant was.  If it is indeed less durable than the Constitution, then the Miranda has to be designated a Medium Cruiser, it certainly cannot be designated a Battle Cruiser.

[knightstorm]

I get my impressions from the big AMT models.  I grew up with SFB, and always thought of the NCL as being a Miranda.  I was expecting the Reliant to have the exact same engines as the Enterprise, but I didn't expect the Miranda to have so many more weapons.  It has 16 phaser emitters compaired to the Constitution's 12, along with a double sized torpedo bay that also fires to the rear.  With all the all gimblies, one could suspect the ship was also equipped with additional auxiliery power.  After looking it over, calling the thing a "light" or "medium" seems just wrong.  The Miranda appears to be a Constitution reworked into a dedicated warship.   When two ships are close in displacement, it is unusual to call the more heavily armed vessel "light" or "medium."  Maybe, we should call the Miranda a "battle cruiser."

The Enterprise has 18 phaser emitters.  There are six on the secondary hull which were never fired on screen.  And like I said, the only times we've seen the refit Enterprise fire phasers was after its power systems had been severely damaged.  So its very possible that if the ship was undamaged, those phasers would have been significantly more powerful.  Likewise, we have no idea how the ships shields compare.

[Lieutenant_Q]

I do remember in the first drafts of the scripts it was intended that the Reliant was supposed to be a Constitution Class similar to the Enterprise, but it was later changed so that there was no confusion as to what ship was what.

[Lieutenant_Q]

That's not exactly what I take from that.  Looking at the On-screen stuff:  The Reliant looks good, right up to the point when the Enterprise blows it to hell.  The Enterprise on the other hand, SHE is the one that looks aged and battered.  Look at her after they stop re-using the TMP footage.  There's clearly rust forming on the ship's engineering hull. (Don't ask me how... rust needs oxygen to form, and that's a little scarce in space... maybe when it was in V'ger's Oxygen/Gravity envelope that allowed them to walk up to V'ger?)

[Tulwar]

When they started writing the script, they were trying to make a believable story behind the Reliant.  It was supposed to of the "Enterprise Class" but a different configuration.  Translated into naval terms, that means that if the Enterprise was a CA, then the Reliant was a CA as well.

The thing is, it was a movie!  The model of the Reliant had to meet the demands of the drama.  The bad guy never shows up on the course with an inferior set of clubs!  The ship couldn't be as pretty as the Big-E, but it had to look like it could hold it's own.  As a matter of fact, they went ahead and made it down right scary with all the weapons on that roll bar.  I mean, when does the bad guy ever show up on the course with a hand-me-down set of clubs?  They had two competing notions going on when they designed it: 1.) A mildly inferior Enterprise.  2.) A really scary ship.  What emerged was a schizoid model which doesn't quite fit anywhere.

[Age]

Someone pointed out years ago, when the debate of just what those Phasers on the Miranda are was raging back then,  (It's always amusing when the same debates are had repeatedly) that if you removed the Phaser Banks from the Constitution's or the Miranda's Saucer, they would match exactly the dimensions of the "Mega-Phaser" mounts on the roll-bar.

The Miranda IS better armed than the Constitution.  But not by much.  The Miranda and the Constitution have the same number of saucer Phasers pointing in the same directions.  The Miranda has the two "Roll Bar" Phasers that fire forward and back, for a total of 4 more phasers.  The Constitution has those 4 phasers mounted on the Ventral side of the Engineering hull, presumably covering 360 degrees of the Ventral Arc.  The Miranda has two forward torpedo tubes, and two aft torpedo tubes, while the Constitution only has 2 forward tubes.  Now, a question remains as to whether the Miranda could fire the forward and aft tubes simultaneously, I would say no, but the versatility of being able to fire torpedoes behind you, which the Constitution, lacks gives it an edge in that category.  Also the Constitution has 2 Phaser Banks covering the rear arc (above the shuttle bay) which I do not see any similar mounts on the Miranda.  (understandable, the roll bar covers that arc nicely)  Based on armament, even though the extra versatility of the aft firing torpedoes helps, I can't justify calling the Miranda a Battle Cruiser.  Medium or Heavy Cruiser is what I would say it's initial designation was.  There is also a question of how durable the ship is, while it's hard to determine from TWOK, it does seem that the Enterprise was able to take more damage than the Reliant was.  If it is indeed less durable than the Constitution, then the Miranda has to be designated a Medium Cruiser, it certainly cannot be designated a Battle Cruiser.

You are right in when it comes to the Const. phaser layout and both ships use the same type 7 as well as Miranda phaser cannons.The one thing the Const. has going for it can carry more torpedos.

That is why it is medium cruiser set out for medium types of missions.

This may help
http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/entamain.html as well as this

Constitution Class Refit-
TMP: http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/interiors/Original%20Files/1701refitbridge.jpg
TWOK: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/enterprise-refit-bridge-twok.jpg
Voyage Home: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/enterprise-a-bridge-tvh.jpg
Final Frontier: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/enterprise-a-bridge-finalfrontier.jpg
Undiscovered Country: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/enterprise-a-bridge.jpg
Shuttle Bay: http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/interiors/Original%20Files/1701ashuttlebay.jpg
Main Engineering: http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/interiors/Original%20Files/1701aenginepic.gif
Master Systems Display: http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/entamain.html
Others to add: The TOS Constitution could have a crew of 430, not 100 as you have it in the game. TOS ship also has a total of 12 phaser banks and at least 6 photon torpedo launchers. It has a rear torpedo launcher as well as rear phasers (use the USS Defiant for reference). The refit has a crew of 432 and has 18 phaser emitters, 2 photon torpedo launchers (and get rid of those red dots at the front of the saucer section, you have no clue how annoying they are and they serve NO purpose). The Refit also used phaser banks, not phaser strips that ships such as the Galaxy Class use: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Constitution_class_refit_configuration_phaser s.jpg. The length of the TOS Constitution is 289 meters.

Miranda Class-
USS Reliant: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/reliant-bridge.jpg
USS Saratoga NCC-1887: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/saratoga-bridge.jpg
USS Saratoga NCC-31911: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/saratoga-ds9-bridge.jpg
Corridor:alpha.org/wiki/File:USS_Reliant_corridor.jpg[/url]
Crew: Approx. 26-35
Should have phaser banks, not strips: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:USS_Reliant.jpg
Should have an additional weapons slot for aft torpedos.

http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedconstitution&ShipID=6015&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

[Tulwar]

Sorry Age, but I can't define a "medium type of mission."  All I can glean from this is that the studios attempted to make an older CA, but to build up the drama, they hung more weapons on it.  They overdid it.  They ended up hanging more weapons on the model of the Reliant than they hung on model of the Enterprise.  The Miranda isn't a medium cruiser; it's a screw-up.  The model wasn't designed to fit any role in Starfleet, but purely as a plot device for a specific movie.  It was made to fit one particular role in one particular movie, and then it got recycled over and over again.

This is why I hate the ST canon.  Once something makes it into film or television, it's permanent, no matter how bad it is.  The Miranda is ugly, but the model was used over and over again, because it was something the studio had to put in front of the camera.  With computer animation, the studios are able to create whole fleets ahead of time, and can choose logical models.  Unfortunately, JJ-Trek is in production, and those models are just incredibly ugly.  Hopefully, after JJ-trek, the studios will do something with cool models and interesting plots.  I'm not holding my breath.

The only thing enjoyable about a JJ-Trek is hearing McCoy call Spock "a pointy-eared hobgoblin."

[Corbomite]

Using an original script as a "factual document" is about as useful as trying to carry water in a sieve. A first script is like a battle plan: its perfect until the boots hit the ground, and then everything goes to hell. No script has ever made it to the completion of the film without changes (well, maybe Ed Wood shot what was originally on the page) and they even have a color coded system of pages that tells everyone what has been changed and in what order, so by the end of the shoot the script looks like a rainbow of colored pages. Screen writers never worry about time, money, practicality or manpower needed. They are selling an idea.

Yes it is silly that fans try to turn a haphazard series of events and scenes into a pastiche of sense, but the creators always give you enough to get the story told with enough of a thread of familiarity to make people want to make these connections. Besides, it's fun. SFB managed to make an entire game that made some pretty good sense of those events and scenes, but since they too had to fill in the blanks, it became its own animal, much like these conversations and debates.

[knightstorm]

they hung more weapons on it.

No they didn't.  The Reliant has 2 extra photon tubes, but The Enterprise has 2 extra phaser emitters.

[Corbomite]

Yeah, all we really know is that the Miranda has a smaller bowling alley and that they have to use the #2 shuttle bay for crew barbeques. 

[Age]

Sorry Age, but I can't define a "medium type of mission."  All I can glean from this is that the studios attempted to make an older CA, but to build up the drama, they hung more weapons on it.  They overdid it.  They ended up hanging more weapons on the model of the Reliant than they hung on model of the Enterprise.  The Miranda isn't a medium cruiser; it's a screw-up.  The model wasn't designed to fit any role in Starfleet, but purely as a plot device for a specific movie.  It was made to fit one particular role in one particular movie, and then it got recycled over and over again.

The medium means it can't stay out of space dock for to long.It is not over done.The Enterprise has just as good of armament or better then the Miranda.Take for eg. the amount of torpedos it can carry 40 compared to the E 120 as wel it has less transporters.It is designed to fit say role of say where a DD would used today.It was designed to replace the old Const. as it is less costly to build and crew.

Miranda Armament : 6 x Type VII phaser bank, total output 3,000 TeraWatts
2 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube with 40 rounds

Const. Refit Armament :18 x Type VII phasers, total output 6,000 TeraWatts
4 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube with 120 rounds

I wouldn't say it is ugly but that is your opinion it is not up there as one of my favs but then again I am Trek fan.   

[Tulwar]

I never quite understood why the Constitution says 4 torpedo tubes and Miranda says 2 but visually we see the reverse.

Adam

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about how the movie models relate to one another.  You can't say that one has the loner range or carries more torpedoes, because that wasn't told in the stories.  You can say the Enterprise looks faster, but that's about.  There is nothing in the movies that defines the relative rolls of these ships.  Nothing, zip, zero.  In the script, it's called an "Enterprise Class."  That means whatever the Big-E is, heavy cruiser, dreadnought, or fishing trawler, the Reliant was the same thing.

The Miranda is what anybody wants it to be.  For me, the Enterprise is the big, beautiful ship you use for first contact and diplomatic missions, and the Reliant looks like a nasty piece of work you keep in the closet, just in case the Klingons or Romulans come knocking.

[Tulwar]

Speaking of Mirandas. I just received the Miranda and Borg Sphere models in the mail. The have a picture in the magazines that clearly shows her aft phaser bank under the impulse drive. Very cool. But the model lacked the wings on the phaser roll bars. Not so cool. FAIL!!!
That's what we get for outsourcing everything. Crap! Ehhh

Adam

What scale are these things?  You remember how AMT screwed up the top of the command hull on the K'tinga.  I've just got back to work on my 1/537 D-5p.  I hope to start getting the hull together soon.  I'm working on Plan C for the gunboat maintenance facilities.  That has to be done first.  There's just not that much room to work with.  Maybe I should have started this in 1/350th scale.

[Tulwar]

These look like pretty small scale models.  I think they're being sold at the right price, even if they aren't that accurate.  The problem is that I'm only interested in scale models that are the same scale, and I think most of the ST designs are crap.  I'm not buying dozens of models just to buy the few that are cool, then If the Enterprise refit isn't the same scale as the K'tinga, well....  Need I say more?

[Age]

I never quite understood why the Constitution says 4 torpedo tubes and Miranda says 2 but visually we see the reverse.

Adam

What that means is that the refit Con. can fire up to 8 torpedos at one compared to the unrefit Miranda which can only fire 4.The redfit Con. 4 per each tube as the unrefit Miranda 2 per each tube.

This is the refitted Miranda
Armament :18 x Type VII phaser bank12, total output 8,000 TeraWatts
4 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube4 with 150 rounds
source http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Read here for what its purpose is
http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6040&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

It says it is more of Destroyer than anything else.Itis like the Hermes or Saladin.
http://www.ditl.org/ship-sizecomp.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6099&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Klingon B'rel class http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibrel&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :24 x Mark 10 pulse disrupter cannon4
6 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 14,250 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube
4 x Emergency photon torpedo tube with 385 rounds
Klingon bird of Prey http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibirdofprey&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :21 x Mark 6 pulse disrupter cannon1, total output 10,000 TeraWatts
111 x Basic photon torpedo tube with 35 rounds

Klingon K'tinga  http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=kliktinga&ShipID=9009&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament : 2 x Mark 10 disrupter cannon
12 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 8,500 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube with 230 rounds

This video does it some justice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjqzPdLLc1c

I would say this says a lot and Tulwar read that site for more info.What would your other ship be other than the Constitution class?

[knightstorm]

I never quite understood why the Constitution says 4 torpedo tubes and Miranda says 2 but visually we see the reverse.

Adam

What that means is that the refit Con. can fire up to 8 torpedos at one compared to the unrefit Miranda which can only fire 4.The redfit Con. 4 per each tube as the unrefit Miranda 2 per each tube.

This is the refitted Miranda
Armament :18 x Type VII phaser bank12, total output 8,000 TeraWatts
4 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube4 with 150 rounds
source http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Read here for what its purpose is
http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6040&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

It says it is more of Destroyer than anything else.Itis like the Hermes or Saladin.
http://www.ditl.org/ship-sizecomp.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6099&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Klingon B'rel class http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibrel&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :24 x Mark 10 pulse disrupter cannon4
6 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 14,250 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube
4 x Emergency photon torpedo tube with 385 rounds
Klingon bird of Prey http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibirdofprey&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :21 x Mark 6 pulse disrupter cannon1, total output 10,000 TeraWatts
111 x Basic photon torpedo tube with 35 rounds

Klingon K'tinga  http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=kliktinga&ShipID=9009&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament : 2 x Mark 10 disrupter cannon
12 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 8,500 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube with 230 rounds

This video does it some justice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjqzPdLLc1c

I would say this says a lot and Tulwar read that site for more info.What would your other ship be other than the Constitution class?

None of this information is canon.

[Age]

I never quite understood why the Constitution says 4 torpedo tubes and Miranda says 2 but visually we see the reverse.

Adam

What that means is that the refit Con. can fire up to 8 torpedos at one compared to the unrefit Miranda which can only fire 4.The redfit Con. 4 per each tube as the unrefit Miranda 2 per each tube.

This is the refitted Miranda
Armament :18 x Type VII phaser bank12, total output 8,000 TeraWatts
4 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube4 with 150 rounds
source http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Read here for what its purpose is
http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6040&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

It says it is more of Destroyer than anything else.Itis like the Hermes or Saladin.
http://www.ditl.org/ship-sizecomp.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6099&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Klingon B'rel class http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibrel&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :24 x Mark 10 pulse disrupter cannon4
6 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 14,250 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube
4 x Emergency photon torpedo tube with 385 rounds
Klingon bird of Prey http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibirdofprey&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :21 x Mark 6 pulse disrupter cannon1, total output 10,000 TeraWatts
111 x Basic photon torpedo tube with 35 rounds

Klingon K'tinga  http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=kliktinga&ShipID=9009&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament : 2 x Mark 10 disrupter cannon
12 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 8,500 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube with 230 rounds

This video does it some justice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjqzPdLLc1c

I would say this says a lot and Tulwar read that site for more info.What would your other ship be other than the Constitution class?

None of this information is canon.

Yes it is.