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Offline Age

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Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« on: July 11, 2013, 05:23:01 pm »
I have to agree with this guy and he is right about the Bird of Prey scene and couldn't the Enterprise D detect it cloaked as the A did.

Star Trek: Generations Review - Part 1


Star Trek: Generations review - part 2


Star Trek: Generations review - Part 3


Star Trek: Nemesis Review (part 1 of 4)


Star Trek Nemesis Review (part 2 of 4)


Star Trek Nemesis Review (part 3 of 4)


Star Trek Nemesis Review (part 4 of 4)


http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCFC29D602213F6C2

Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 06:15:25 pm »
Items #1 and #3 I can comment on. My Comment on #3 is actually in defense of Generations - well, to a point. I honestly feel that (until JJ took over, anyway) those in charge of the Post-Gene Trek era would try from time to time to bring back some Gene "feel" to Trek... such as a theme (Dax's lesbian kiss scene, as one) or an item (in this case the uniforms).

As stated, Spock (Lenard Nemoy) did get asked and did pretty much say "go to hell" (poor script). As did Sulu (George Takei) (Sulu had his own thing to do at the time and George felt it wouldn't be right for his character to be there). McCoy (DeForest Kelley) was too ill at the time. The Spock/Sulu lines were split up between Demora Sulu and Scotty; and Chekov filled in for McCoy (rewatch the film and picture McCoy as Chekov... Its almost like they didn't even try to hide it). AFAIK they didn't even ask Uhura.

See, Gene was very military on many aspects of Trek. Taken from life experience. Can not be helped. While "not everyone got the memo about the uniforms" seems logical; it isn't. It is in fact very military. In the real world, old uniforms get replaced by new ones rather frequently. There's a decision WAY up top that says a perfectly good uniform is not so good anymore and needs to be replaced. After some debate a new one is chosen, and a start date issued for when the service will see the new duds. After sufficient time has passed, and everyone should have a new uniform, a date is set to stop issuing the old ones (typically, they just stop making them and the surplus is distributed until exhausted). Finally, an order is passed with a date that says when you can wear the old uniform for the last time, usually with some leeway given (like a day or two). Honestly, its one of the few parts of Generations that made sense to me. The overnight change on DS9, however, did not.

Also - Scotty and his team did not use transparent aluminum to build the whale tank. They didn't have the time to wait for it to be made before going after George and Gracie. They traded TA tech for the material that they used - Plexiglas. Dr. Nichols himself said it would take years just to study the matrix. Scotty had just a couple of days. Just my final 2cp on the interesting review of Generations.

I don't have time to get into the Nemisis reviews - I can assume more of the same kind of things though. I'll dive in later, and comment on anything relevant.

I have to agree with this guy and he is right about the Bird of Prey scene and couldn't the Enterprise D detect it cloaked as the A did.

Spock and McCoy (ok OT break here - Why does Chrome know how to spell Spock? Sulu and Scotty get red squiggly lines but not Spock? Really? Fascinating.) have to hot-wire a photon torpedo to sniff out the exhaust from the bird (OT again - I always loved that they had to make a torpedo track bird farts. I mean, really, that is what it is doing...). Once it hits, it is pretty simple to "Target that explosion and fire!".

Unless you are talking about the energy surge WAY earlier in the movie.

The way I see it is Ent-D is set up to detect, or at least try to detect, the best, top-of-the-line cloaks available to the Klingons and Romulans (there it is again... Chrome knows what a Klingon is but not what Klingons or Romulans are... strange). The Duras family is on the outs with all the other Klingons, so they most likely will not have access to those top of the line ships (proven in the movie). Can the Ent-D detect the older cloaks? Sure. Is it expecting, and therefore set up for detecting, an older cloak? Nope. Question answered.

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Offline Tulwar

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 10:21:18 pm »
With every critique, there is always something hypercritical.  Yeah, even in the 25th Century, the old uniforms can still be worn, until the next washing.

The thing that really blows my mind is that they didn't bother shooting a new BoP explosion sceen.  Heck, they could have made a cool looking Klingon ship for the movie.  That's right, trekkies will buy anything with a ST lable.  Year after year, they but out worse garbage with a ST lable, and year after year receits keep getting smaller and smaller.  For 1966, ST was extraodinarily innovative and expensive program to TV series to produce.  Now, ST is becoming cliche' even faster than it is becoming cheap.  How many other SF movies would recycle the scene of a ship exploding?

There is only one thing that ST offers visually that nothing else does: Cool spaceships

If the owners of the franchise want to build an audience and make money off the franchise, they have to deliver the one thing that ST has that nothing else has.  Cool spaceships.  How often does this series come up with a cool spaceship?  Once in a blue moon.  There are several Enterprises, and the latest ones are the worst.  So, there you have it in a nutshell.  No cool new ships, nobody is going to buy a ticket.  That's it.  Done.
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Offline TAnimaL

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2013, 08:26:41 am »
yeah, Tulawr, rriigghhhhtttt that's the first thing I hear from non-Trek watchers - "The ships aren't cool and there'e not enough of them."

"They didn't bother shooting a new BoP explosion"? Cause it was cheaper. Funny that you mention TOS's expense but ignore the massive shortcuts they took. Did you know there are only like 11 shots of the Enterprise in all of TOS? THat's it. Ship curves around a planet, ship goes left to right. Zoom in on the ship's defelctor, watch the ship from behind peel off to the left. Lather, rinse, repeat.

You've confused the owners of the franchise with the operators of the franchise. Paramount sayz, make a TV show or movie, and Roddenberry, Coon, Berman, Braga do what it takes with what they're given, and work their asses off to make magic, but to you they're just making something that "trekkies will buy with a ST label." Sorry, don't think so. It's ironic that there's all this over uniforms and explosions, nothing that impacts the story in the slightest; it's even more ironic considering JJ-Trek, which combined X &XI had a budget greater than Generations/FirstContact/Insurrection/Nemesis COMBINED.

If you read your comment "cool new ships" as "money spent by studio," then, yes, spending tons of cash will bring in an audience - worked very well for X and slightly well for XI, but I think you should revisit the threads bashing JJ-Trek, cause these Treks are not for fans, they're for the widest audience possible.

Czar, thanks for writing your comments - I couldn't get 20 seconds into those video "reviews," listening to marshmellow mouthed fandiot who's "got nothing better to do", and I agree with your fine points, but a thought - I don't think 1701D CAN detect cloaked ships. There's plenty of times when they don't, Romulan or Klingon, and the vital difference between the BoP in ST6 is that it could fire while cloaked, something not seen again untli Nemesis. Clearly, it had a design flaw - it leaked plasma while firing that could be tracked.

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2013, 11:15:57 am »
yes, spending tons of cash will bring in an audience - worked very well for X and slightly well for XI

X was Nemesis.


There's plenty of times when they don't, Romulan or Klingon, and the vital difference between the BoP in ST6 is that it could fire while cloaked, something not seen again untli Nemesis.

Actually, the Scimitar had to partially decloak in order to fire.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2013, 10:33:58 pm »
  How many other SF movies would recycle the scene of a ship exploding?


I'm pretty sure the original Planet of the Apes movies reused footage near the end. Those kept getting cheaper and cheaper too and they merchandised the hell out of them as well.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2013, 02:56:16 am »
yeah, Tulawr, rriigghhhhtttt that's the first thing I hear from non-Trek watchers - "The ships aren't cool and there'e not enough of them."

1.) I'm was a big fan of most of the ST series.  I didn't like Voyager.  Nobody else liked Voyager.  I liked the 1st season of Enterprise.  2.) Most movies, let alone ST movies, suck.  Star Wars Episode IV, the original edit, was fabulous.  The edit you see now isn't worth the time spent watching it.  Episode V was ok, and the editted verision was actually an improvement.  Episode VI was a disaster, and the prequels were a hogpog of cliche's.  You'd think that the smart cookies in Hollywood would have figured out what works and what doesn't by now, but they keep making the same mistakes, over and over again.  I think just about every movie made since the 1980's has had some color filter over the lense that ruins the beauty of the scenery.  You put those kinds of cinematography errors in movie with a ridculous plot in the ST universe isn't going to be anything worth seeing.

Somebody pointed out that they cut a lot of corners in TOS.  Of course they did!  It was really, really expensive for the time.  The studio did not want to invest that kind of money in the show.  They had to cut a lot of corners.  Dr. McCoy's medical instruments were just a bunch of salt and paper shakers.  Hypospray: Can you say "pepper grinder?"  Why do you think Romulans started using spaceships of Klingon design?  The script was altered to match the fact that the Romulan spaceship model had to be returned to the maker over a contract problem, and AMT had already delivered the Klingon model.

Note: the origional Klingon BC was purchased from AMT for an exclusive license to sell the scale model of the ship.  The studio model was the built from wooden prototype pieces used as patterns in the mold-making process.  A machine follows the shape, while a cutting head produces a master that is one third the size of the prototype.  The plastic model is 14" long, so the studio model, on display at the Smithsonian, has to be 42" long.

The origional Romulan Warbird was contracted for in a manner that violated the contract with one of the studio unions.  The studio was barred from paying for it, and gave it back to the builder.  He was, understandably, not happy with this situation and took out his frustration on the model with a sledgehammer.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2013, 04:17:22 am »

The origional Romulan Warbird was contracted for in a manner that violated the contract with one of the studio unions.  The studio was barred from paying for it, and gave it back to the builder.  He was, understandably, not happy with this situation and took out his frustration on the model with a sledgehammer.

I thought the story was that it was destroyed in a warehouse fire.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2013, 11:08:57 am »
I thought the story was that it was destroyed in a warehouse fire.

Most ST historians leave it as a mystery. A warehouse fire that destroyed production props would be remembered.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2013, 12:31:20 pm »
I always remembered the story as the model being dropped while it was being placed on the filming arm.  Of course, Jefferies recently completing the Klingon Battle Cruiser and wanting it to get as much air time as possible makes the point moot.

New ships doesn't make for a good movie.  A Good Star Trek Movie is a double edged sword, you have to have a good story and some good action.  But there has to be a balance between them, go too far in one direction, and you have a mindless shooter, go too far in the other direction... and well... you have The Final Frontier.  (Which you could argue wasn't even really a good story, I just think it was a pretty decent story that was just poorly done)  A list of what new ships appears in what film, followed by my personal (entirely subjective) ranking of the movie.

TMP: Enterprise, FRD, Office Complex, Travel Pod, Work Bee, Klingon Battle Cruiser, Long Range Shuttle, Epsilon IX (Strange that we never saw that again, or was that the Argus Array in a TNG episode later?): 7
TWOK: Reliant, Regula 1 (Yes it was a redress of the Office Complex, but still): 1
TSFS: Excelsior, Space Dock, Bird of Prey, Merchant Ship, Oberth: 5
TVH: Enterprise (Ok all they really did was put an A at the end of it but it was still a new ship from our perspective), Short Range Shuttle (aka the Pontoon shuttles): 4
TFF: Galileo Shuttle: 9
TUD: None (Yes that's right, NONE): 3
GEN: Enterprise, El-Alurian Ships: 6
FC: Enterprise, Akira, Steamrunner, Phoenix, Borg Sphere, Sabre? (I watched the Borg Battle repeatedly and can not find the Sabre in it, despite being told that its in there): 2
INS: So'na Command Ship, So'na Battleships, Federation Scout Ship, Captain's Yacht, Federation Shuttle Craft: 8
NEM: Argo, Scimitar, Romulan Warbirds: 10
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Offline TAnimaL

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2013, 12:45:15 pm »
yeah, Tulwar, not surprised you missed my point entirely. It's not reusing the  effects that drives audiences away or impacts the story, and repeating a 5-second shot of a BoP exploding does not make or break "Generations" in the slightest. It's not like they didn't give the audience a lot of $$-costing effects, crashing the saucer, energy ribbons, blowing up a couple of stars and location shooting, new ship sets, plus a combined cast. So, one shot being recycled seems extremely forgivable, especially in a series that, despite being "expensive," is known to non-fans solely on having "styrofoam rocks" and  "latex face thingys = aliens".

So, how is "cutting corners" on TOS admirable, but doing the same in "Generations" something despicable that "no other SciFI film would do"? Sorry, I hate to make this seem personal Tulwar, but saying "most movies suck" just seems like extreme hyperbole. Clearly you're not going to the right movie theater or your Netflix queue is broken. "Every movie since 1980... ruins the scenery" is just silly. FWIW, no matter how much you or I disliked Star Wars eps 1-3, they did make over $1 billion in theaters alone. While money spent alone doesn't make a movie great, as in those or the JJ-Treks (thanks for pointing out my numerical shorthand error over those) which did make money, or as in the current "Lone Ranger" which cost alot and is a bust; on the flip side an expensive movie like "The Avengers" can make a ton of money and be great, at least by most people, fanboys and critics included.

I love Voyager. I know a lot of fans who do too. I think, taken as a whole, it's the 2nd best Trek series. It hit the ground running better than any other, and had a better conclusion, far better than DS9 did or what wound up happening to TOS or TNG.

ps. Lt Q's comment came in as I wrote this and it brings up another thing. How can "Generations" get bashed for the BoP re-use and not TWOK for reusing all that drydock stuff and the 3 Klinks from TMP???

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2013, 03:05:43 pm »

The origional Romulan Warbird was contracted for in a manner that violated the contract with one of the studio unions.  The studio was barred from paying for it, and gave it back to the builder.  He was, understandably, not happy with this situation and took out his frustration on the model with a sledgehammer.

The other thing regarding this, is that if the Unions griped about the Romulan Bird of Prey, we MAY have seen it in Balance of Terror, simply because the Unions were not that attentive at the time, but there's no way they would have been allowed to re-use the footage for The Deadly Years (Over a Year later), they would have forced them to either not show the scenes, or they would have made them find a new model that didn't violate the Union contract.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2013, 03:30:37 pm »

The origional Romulan Warbird was contracted for in a manner that violated the contract with one of the studio unions.  The studio was barred from paying for it, and gave it back to the builder.  He was, understandably, not happy with this situation and took out his frustration on the model with a sledgehammer.

The other thing regarding this, is that if the Unions griped about the Romulan Bird of Prey, we MAY have seen it in Balance of Terror, simply because the Unions were not that attentive at the time, but there's no way they would have been allowed to re-use the footage for The Deadly Years (Over a Year later), they would have forced them to either not show the scenes, or they would have made them find a new model that didn't violate the Union contract.

Maybe the Bird of Prey managed to achieve temporal displacement, and is lost somewhere in the distant past. ;D

Offline Age

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2013, 06:05:12 pm »
@Czar

Quote
The way I see it is Ent-D is set up to detect, or at least try to detect, the best, top-of-the-line cloaks available to the Klingons and Romulans (there it is again... Chrome knows what a Klingon is but not what Klingons or Romulans are... strange). The Duras family is on the outs with all the other Klingons, so they most likely will not have access to those top of the line ships (proven in the movie). Can the Ent-D detect the older cloaks? Sure. Is it expecting, and therefore set up for detecting, an older cloak? Nope. Question answered.
Yes this as the A was able to dect some sort of presence of ion the D should of detected it better and possibly where it was since it has far better sensors.

Quote
TUD: None (Yes that's right, NONE
I would say Qo'nos 1 K'tinga the TMP ones were more of D7s
Quote
: Enterprise (Ok all they really did was put an A at the end of it but it was still a new ship from our perspective)
It may have an A thrown on it but it does come with a different bridge and walk ways.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2013, 06:06:25 pm »

So, how is "cutting corners" on TOS admirable, but doing the same in "Generations" something despicable that "no other SciFI film would do"?

Quite simply TOS didn't have to be very good (it frequently wasn't) to completely change the world of science fiction.  When the franchise matured, and banks were willing to foot the bill for bigger and better productions.  One would expect the producers to find a decent script.  If a movie can't do that, then it needs some pretty scenery, half naked girls, or cool looking spaceships.  Star Trek failed to deliver.  I enjoyed Water World, on the big screen, despite the stupid plot and tedious villians, because I got to see a really cool boat sailing on beautiful Hawian waters.  I'm not that hard to please.
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Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2013, 10:04:25 pm »
@Czar

Quote
The way I see it is Ent-D is set up to detect, or at least try to detect, the best, top-of-the-line cloaks available to the Klingons and Romulans (there it is again... Chrome knows what a Klingon is but not what Klingons or Romulans are... strange). The Duras family is on the outs with all the other Klingons, so they most likely will not have access to those top of the line ships (proven in the movie). Can the Ent-D detect the older cloaks? Sure. Is it expecting, and therefore set up for detecting, an older cloak? Nope. Question answered.

Yes this as the A was able to dect some sort of presence of ion the D should of detected it better and possibly where it was since it has far better sensors.



TNG:The Emissary is the answer, and exactly what I was on about. For those that don't remember, its the episode where Alexander was conceived... Anyway... Ship and fearless crew have to find a Klingon ship that was launched 70ish years ago on a sleeper mission before they can wreck havoc on some Starfleet outposts... Long story short, they find the ship, it fires and cloaks, and Geordi has to re-calibrate the sensors to be able to find it.

Almost identical discovery method in VOY:Prophecy - 7 of 9 and Tuvok modify the sensors to detect a cloaked, 70ish year old Klingon vessel.

I liken it to telephones. 70ish years ago you had to call an operator (probably from a party line) to connect you to <insert place here> in <insert city nearby where you are here>. You can still do that. Just easier to <insert search engine of choice here> it, select the phone number from the list and call directly.

(Age: I'm 90% certain you were agreeing with me, so don't get mad or anything - I was just adding to my original argument mostly because I had forgotten about it in the TNG episode and I was watching that episode right just now and then it all came in to focus so I was going to add this stuff (except this annoying run-on sentence :D) anyway - didn't expect so many  responses to this thread though...)

Q:
You forgot this magical mystery ship in the TSFS list... Port-forward of the Big E...



Linky to a bit more about it.

Also, to TVH you could add U.S.S. Ranger CV-61, the Enterprise (CVN-65)'s stand in for the 1986 portion of the film. The whaling vessel, also. The Probe. The Huey. Come to think of it that Chevy pick-up is rather iconic to the movie... In all seriousness though, the whale probe, though only seen once (in ST:4), can be considered an important "new" vessel - There is plenty of off-canon works about the thing (the book Probe comes to mind, as one), and it did almost destroy Earth. Oooo... And the Saratoga.

But I digress. Despite my humble attempts at jocularity, in an attempt to lighten the mood of this thread, it seems it is near to unraveling into a fur ball over why Trek, or rather, which Trek,  is or is not good. So, call me Swiss, I'm staying out.

Also:
  I'm not that hard to please.


That's what she said.

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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2013, 11:01:48 pm »

Yes this as the A was able to dect some sort of presence of ion the D should of detected it better and possibly where it was since it has far better sensors.


You're assuming that the Klingons never overhauled the drive system  or made other modifications on the ship to make it harder to detect with that method between TUD, and when it was retired.  Also, if you want to discuss plot holes, why did the Enterprise need the special torpedo to begin with.  Chang wasn't observing radio silence.  WTF was Uhura doing?

Offline Leermeister

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2013, 02:22:00 pm »
lol i watched all that guys reviews  they have a website
http://redlettermedia.com/

Offline Age

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2013, 06:29:54 pm »

Yes this as the A was able to dect some sort of presence of ion the D should of detected it better and possibly where it was since it has far better sensors.


You're assuming that the Klingons never overhauled the drive system  or made other modifications on the ship to make it harder to detect with that method between TUD, and when it was retired.  Also, if you want to discuss plot holes, why did the Enterprise need the special torpedo to begin with.  Chang wasn't observing radio silence.  WTF was Uhura doing?
Who said they reired the BoP as it was used in DS9 a lot even Generral Mortak used it.It was the Duras sister that hailed the Enterrise D.
This really isn't a debate more of discussion.

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Star Trek Generation Reviews and others.
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2013, 06:56:48 pm »
The Bird of Prey hull shape has been used for three different ship classes in Star Trek.  The TMP era BOP was the B'Rel class.  The standard TNG era BOP was the much larger K'Vort class.  The BOP in Generations was a D-12 class which was retired from service 20 years earlier due to defective plasma coils.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 07:13:15 pm by knightstorm »