Topic: Discussion on Models

[[UFP]Exeter]

I think they are compressed.  Irrlicht has its compression built in for the S3 decompression algorithm.  So I think it decompresses as it reads the file.  If Gimo and Adobe compress as they save we are good.

I guess I need to get the add for gimp to convert an image to DDS and try it out.  Right now all my code is 32 bit so for now 64 can wait.

I will also check the cost of the S3 license.  Maybe it is a percetage like 3%

[[UFP]Exeter]

Interesting WIKI calls is lossy texture compression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S3_Texture_Compression

[[UFP]Exeter]

I have an idea.  We use DDS, but to avoid messing with compression we put the files in a zip file.  I can read from the zip file (already in Irrlicht) so we get compression and the DDS format. 

And since we only do this a the loan non during combat, it should not matter fo any extra load time.

[TheStressPuppy]

So you want 20k "Minimum" for a mesh? How many ships maximum do you plan to have on the map at once? I understand you want high model detail, but sometimes you can substitute mesh details with normal, and specular mapping. You will have normal (bump), specular, illumination, reflection, bloom, and shadow support correct? Sometimes less is more as far as performance is concerned. What I am basically asking is what the planned total combined poly budget for the game is.

10k is that largest mesh i've ever modeled. I try to make the best looking meshes with a few polys as possible. I wouldn't know what to do with another 10k+ triangles.

if you have a 5 view of a concept ship i can give it a go, and see what i can pull off. You guys already know my credentials.

[Starfox1701]

I have an idea.  We use DDS, but to avoid messing with compression we put the files in a zip file.  I can read from the zip file (already in Irrlicht) so we get compression and the DDS format. 

And since we only do this a the load not during combat, it should not matter for any extra load time.

.DDS files have to be compressed, it is part of the format as far as I can tell some of them will get truly massive if they aren't, 64 meg for a single texture file.

So you want 20k "Minimum" for a mesh? How many ships maximum do you plan to have on the map at once? I understand you want high model detail, but sometimes you can substitute mesh details with normal, and specular mapping. You will have normal (bump), specular, illumination, reflection, bloom, and shadow support correct? Sometimes less is more as far as performance is concerned. What I am basically asking is what the planned total combined poly budget for the game is.

10k is that largest mesh i've ever modeled. I try to make the best looking meshes with a few polys as possible. I wouldn't know what to do with another 10k+ triangles.

if you have a 5 view of a concept ship i can give it a go, and see what i can pull off. You guys already know my credentials.

I think 20K is around the max not the minimum. As for what you would do with the extra polies probable something like this

http://trekmodeler.deviantart.com/art/Space-2271-368275554

granted shes a bit over 20K, 27K actually, but the point stands. With modern cards, good coding and modern texture compression I think we can see that level and still run 20 or 30 or maybe even 40 big models at a time. After all the beasty runs in Bridge Commander and Armada 2 and they are 10 years old.

[[UFP]Exeter]

1.  As for .DDS, I will get a sample and try it. IF it works we can use it the way it is for development.  And deal with compression conversion and 64 bit later.  If it does not, then the format is a no go.  But I still do not understand why, as textures are loaded BEFORE any combat occurs, so the extra couple seconds for the tactical/combat loading screen is not an issue.

2.  As for model size vs count, I figured around 60 models.  Each ship AND each torpedo is a model.  I already had a torpedo model given to me.  For performance, we will wind up utilizing the power of modern processors and GPU's.  The physics engine will utilize the GPU for collision.  The game itself will utilize multi-core processors.  And that includes SIMD support in the DirectX drivers.

[Starfox1701]

The why on compressed .DDS is simple. Not counting Id maps the average mesh will have at least 2 different textures and each one of these textures, if we are utilizing graphics to the fullest will have a specular map, a bump/normal map, an effect map, and a illumination map. Point is if we don't find a compression method we are looking at using 400 to 800% more memory and video memory to do the rendering ingame.

Possiible solution might be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_Scalable_Texture_Compression

http://malideveloper.arm.com/develop-for-mali/tools/astc-evaluation-codec/#astc-evaluation-codec

https://www.khronos.org/news/press/khronos-releases-atsc-next-generation-texture-compression-specification

Its OpenGL and aimed at DX11 hardware.

The whole S3TC thing is a real pain in the arse. I can't find out what the actual terms of the license is and therefore can't figurout at what point our game would no longer be covered under the licenses held by Microsoft and the hardware manufactures; much less get a price on buying one.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Once the textures are loaded and uncompressed they take about the same size.  Part of the reading is to uncompress and place in the appropriate format for the GPU.  The advantage to DDS is it is already in this format so loading is faster. 

We also need formats that support the Alpha Channel, so PNG and DDS both do.

Open GL is not a real good option, right now support to version 2 and no idea when it will get better.

I have 2 large models in OBJ format that I would like to use as alien "God Ships"  one a massive battleship and the other a massive carrier.  If we can convert them to .x format, I would be fine using it.  The largest has 750,000 polygons.

What I can tell, other that faster load time as the conversion to proper format for the GPU,  DDS is faster but PNG works well also.
Model format, the same reason, loading.

We should test this, I have 2 ships I am using for my testing.  A Romulan Warbird in milkshape with textures.  And an Akira, in 3ds.  Can we convert those to .x and dds to test?  I will rebuild irrlicht to support dds.  But, do we want to disable the ability to load other formats?

[Starfox1701]

Once the textures are loaded and uncompressed they take about the same size.  Part of the reading is to uncompress and place in the appropriate format for the GPU.  The advantage to DDS is it is already in this format so loading is faster. 

We also need formats that support the Alpha Channel, so PNG and DDS both do.

If it is coded so that DX or the hardware does all the uncompressing those actions appear to be covered under existing licenses held by those companies in the same way creating a .DDS file is covered under Navidia's license when done in Photoshop.

Open GL is not a real good option, right now support to version 2 and no idea when it will get better.

OpenGL is up to version 4.2 or 4.3 now. Version 4 is specifically aimed at being used by DX11 compliant hardware

I have 2 large models in OBJ format that I would like to use as alien "God Ships"  one a massive battleship and the other a massive carrier.  If we can convert them to .x format, I would be fine using it.  The largest has 750,000 polygons.

750K is too big. That is a low end movie or TV level mesh. ILM's 2009 Enterprise mesh is not much bigger then that.

What I can tell, other that faster load time as the conversion to proper format for the GPU,  DDS is faster but PNG works well also.
Model format, the same reason, loading.

We should test this, I have 2 ships I am using for my testing.  A Romulan Warbird in milkshape with textures.  And an Akira, in 3ds.  Can we convert those to .x and dds to test?  I will rebuild irrlicht to support dds.  But, do we want to disable the ability to load other formats?

Right now I would recommend Blender for the model conversion unless you have 3DS Max and can use it. Gimp or Photoshop for the texture work. I don't think we need to disable the ability to use other texture formats; I just know that with the available tech that .DDS is the best format available to use. It is a question of efficiency in our work flow. By focusing our effort to a single model and single texture format we make it easier to build up or collection of assets because the creation process becomes standardized and it is simpler to train new staff when the come on board.

[TheStressPuppy]

Like i said it is best to make the best looking mesh possible with as few triangles as possible. Not saying budget to the point of crappy looking meshes. There are workarounds to using 1000's of unnecessary triangles. Those of us who worked on old games like Homeworld, and SFC know this more than anyone else. 10-15k in triangles to be honest is a very reasonable count for a TMP era Constitution in modern hardware standards. i believe Kalibans connie is around 10K if i am not mistaken, and CG's Sovereign, and Galaxy is in the 15-20k range. 10 years ago that kind of count would be out of the question.

I would be more concerned with Texture Resolutions, and using very large memory hogging textures like TGA, PNG etc. etc.. DDS is the best choice to go with since DDS is designed specifically for modern gaming graphics. Since you say you are coding this in 64 bit. Then you wont have to worry about a 2 gig memory limit that most 32 bit games have. Still i would lean on the side of conservatism with textures. 2048 being the standard resolution, and 4096 for supersized units like, Stations, and planets. "IF" 4096 resolution can be run without going over limits, and causing extreme lag on modern systems then i say go for it. People are not gonna want to buy gods own computer to play the game if we overkill on the graphics.

I noticed a discussion about "sprites" before.. WTF are you guys talking about?? In modern games we use Particles now lol. Particle effects for weapons. Particle effects for hit, and damage effects. You can probably make "scar" texture overlays like what Homeworld 2 does. You can probably take it a step further, and ginsu ships like in Klingon Academy (AFAIK the ONLY game ever that used ginsu effects). If this is in 64 bit the possibilities are only limited to skill.

[[UFP]Exeter]

ok, I will enable DDS in Irrlicht.

OpenGL would require writing the graphics to use it, unless Irrlicht updates OpenGL.  That can be for the future.

The 750K poly model is an OBJ I obtained from a site of 3D modes.  Very detailed the other is about 356K poly

Ok can use Blender and even have a book to learn it

So now I need something is .x with DDS texture to use for testing.

[[UFP]Exeter]

I have done testing and 2048 seems good quality and loads fast.

DDS for modern graphics cards?   This is as old as DX 8, and has been updated twice to be able to work with modern graphics cards.  This format is OLD.

I have two giant models I want to use as alien GOD ships.  Not just poly count be they are massive in size which is what I want.

[TheStressPuppy]

BMP, TGA, and PNG are even older formats than DDS (look it up). Unless there is a new image format out there that i am not aware of. Mass Effect 3, The BF, and COD series uses DDS format as well as damn near every other modern game in existence. DDS as far as i know may be old, but its the newest format out there. Plus it has many advantages like the mip mapping (lodding) feature that all of the other formats do not have. The only disadvantage to DDS is it image quality compared to TGA, and PNG. However for game performance that disadvantage can easily be overlooked.

The "God Ships" could be considered "Supersized Units" if they are really large in scale, and you probably would want to go 4096 resolution with them.

[[UFP]Exeter]

The "God Ships" I purchased for this, so they can be adjusted.  I do not have the skill in doing that. 

I am fine with DDS, our only issue may be the decompression, depends on the one supported with GIMP and or Photoshop.  That I will look into as the code needs to support it and we we can avoid use of S3T we are better off

[TheStressPuppy]

So you are the primary "Code Monkey" for this project. Don't be insulted. I call all programmers Code Monkeys   So it is safe to assume that you have no 3d modeling, or 2d art for texturing experience correct? Though i see you are willing to learn blender, and are exploring what you can do with modeling.

Last i checked the Dynaverse community had an army of 3d modelers, an 2d artists. However its been a while since i've been here. I saw the SFC4 thing and it caught my interest. If anything could get me out of modeling retirement it could be this. However i don't want to model saucer's with "bolt on nacelle's", and call it a new class of ship. Nor model absurd ship designs that obviously do not belong in Trek.

SFC is what got me started in modeling, and you can thank Moonraker for that. I know Damn near all versions of 3dsMax up to 2011. I worked with several versions of Lightwave. I messed with Maya then threw it out the window. I know a little Softimage XSI. I started modeling with Milkshape, but now i only use it for duplicating, and mirroring stuff. I am pretty handy in Photoshop too.

On the other hand. I know absolutely NOTHING about programming. Except that it is a pain in the ass. So though i call you a "code monkey" you got respect. I got as far as "hello world" in C+. Then I smashed my old CRT monitor (gave me an excuse to buy a flat screen monitor). I have zero patience for coding.

[[UFP]Exeter]

So you are the primary "Code Monkey" for this project. Don't be insulted. I call all programmers Code Monkeys   So it is safe to assume that you have no 3d modeling, or 2d art for texturing experience correct? Though i see you are willing to learn blender, and are exploring what you can do with modeling.

I have done photoshop and played around with Blender, Milkshape and other.  I like the 'artistic' flair, as I have the technical mindset of a code monkey  (Like that term).  Basically correct in your assumption, but i can take a 3d model and textures, put them on the screen rotate, scale, move a camera etc.

We are planning for the races:  Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Dominion and pirates.  We also are planning on at least 6 classes ov vessels including some that there are no cannon models to use.  And a race that is "unknown" and of course aliens galore.

My attitude and opinion, is a medeller should take on one "race" and design the ships.  That way he can design in the aspects that make them look like they are of the same race.  And give them cretive leeway, except it should look trekkish for the appropriate race.

[[UFP]Exeter]

I did find this, relating to Civilization but provides details on creating DDS using GIMP.

http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?119335-Adding-Images-%28DDS-Textures%29

[[UFP]Exeter]

I used Blender to convert my MS3D warbird to X and gim to conver the two bmp textures to dds, using DXT3.

I enabled the DDS in Irrlicht.  Rebuilt the code

Other thatn the model rotations beind different, I was able to read the model properly.  Even looks like the textures look a little crisper.

all 32 bit version bur it works.

[Starfox1701]

TheStressPuppy any opinion on model formats to use in game? Right now we are looking at .X files and some of the DCC files like .3ds.

Overall I see ships running from 10K to the 20 or 25K range.  Shuttles and fighters should really be no more then what 1500 or 2K. Stations should be 10K to 40K range. We spend polies smart. We can do the rest with textures. On the texture size hears what I think we go with 2048s as the standard. We use  4096s for meshes that have must have 4 or more 2048s so we can unify the mesh as much as possible to improve performance. Shuttles and fighters can start at 1024s. One thing I'd like to do different from other SFC games is instead 6 or 8 hull types that are recycled for all the different variants; lets try and actually do as many different class for all the different variants. With the TNG time frame we can draw designs going all the way back to KA. New updated models would look great and have real history.

I did find this, relating to Civilization but provides details on creating DDS using GIMP.

http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?119335-Adding-Images-%28DDS-Textures%29

Good find, it will help out the gimp users

I used Blender to convert my MS3D warbird to X and gim to conver the two bmp textures to dds, using DXT3.

I enabled the DDS in Irrlicht.  Rebuilt the code

Other thatn the model rotations beind different, I was able to read the model properly.  Even looks like the textures look a little crisper.

all 32 bit version bur it works.

Cool try the DXT5 next

[TheStressPuppy]

You should look at Sins of a Solar Empire. How it uses its textures IMO is the most effecient. You have the ship UV mapped to a single 2048 sheet. However each mesh uses 3 separate texture sheets. One for the color, or diffuse map. With an alpha channel for team color. The second texture fills the roles of Specular map, Illumination map, Reflection, and the alpha is used for Bloom effects. Each RGB color channel has a separate role. For example the Green channel is used for illumination, The blue channel reflection, and red channel is the specular map. This saves having to use of 4 separate textures to do all of this. Then another separate texture is used for the normal maps. This is all done with DXT5 DDS textures.

Photoshop does have a plugin for DDS format if they didn't finally incorporate it natively in versions beyond CS3. Gimp can work with DDS format, but i am not sure how well.

I would use ether the direct X model format, or .3ds. Most modeling programs can save, or import/export in those formats. Including Blender IIRC. If your model viewer is going to be anything like the NanoFX Evolved viewer. Direct X would be the way to go. Unless something better came out that i am not yet aware of.

I am all for design consistency. As long as it makes sense. In Trek everything on a ship served a purpose. In SFB basically they added a 3rd nacelle, or moved the arrangement around slightly, and called the ship a new class. That is what i would like to avoid. We all know the Federation used similar components on different ships. For example the TMP Constitution, and the Miranda, or the Galaxy, and Nebula Classes. I can live with stuff like that, but the Galaxy X just made me do a facepalm. Don't even get me started on the Alien designs for SFB. Especially the Romulans. What SFC did to the SFB ship designs made a lot more sense. I must insist that any new ship designs must make sense, and serve a purpose, and NOT be put in just because they "look cool". That is the heart of Trek.